Could you elaborate on that? I am not sure what you mean, and I *do* have a fairly difficult time with the day *after* I see Artist, often (and have had it in past relationships as well, especially HipsterBoy).
healthy vs unhealthy needs
- Thread starter anita
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Could you elaborate on that? I am not sure what you mean, and I *do* have a fairly difficult time with the day *after* I see Artist, often (and have had it in past relationships as well, especially HipsterBoy).
GirlFromTexlahoma
New member
Anita, I totally understand where you're coming from. I am the same way in relationships. If I care about someone, I want to be with them... The more I'm with them, the deeper my feelings go, and the more time I want!
You know that saying, life is what happens when you're making other plans? For me, relationships are a bit like that. Falling in love is what happens while you're doing other things together
Seeing someone once a week does not inspire the connection and bonds that I need to truly see someone as a ~partner~.
I struggled for most of the past year trying to be more like nycindie and FallenAngelina... To force myself to see love and intimacy the way they do. And in hindsight, I did a lot of damage to my relationships and myself in that attempt. Trying to be someone you're not never works. Trying to love in a way you don't never works. I caused myself endless agony trying to make a one-date-a-week relationship feel as close and intimate as my cohabiting partnership with my husband.
My advice to you, honestly, would be to accept the relationship with your girlfriend as it is, and accept however you feel about that. If seeing her twice a week is enjoyable, valuable, and makes your life better, celebrate that. Don't beat yourself up for not feeling as intimate or as close as you would if you spent every day together. See the happiness in what you have. Don't put up walls out of fear of getting close and missing her... But don't force yourself to try and feel things you don't. Just be, sit with whatever feelings come.
And if the relationship does stop making you happy, don't be afraid to be honest. There are some people in my life with whom I'm content to share time occasionally. There have been others where my feelings were too intense, and the pain of wanting to be with them more was too great, and two dates a week simply meant endless frustration.
I hope you and your girlfriend will find what works for you as a couple.
You know that saying, life is what happens when you're making other plans? For me, relationships are a bit like that. Falling in love is what happens while you're doing other things together
Seeing someone once a week does not inspire the connection and bonds that I need to truly see someone as a ~partner~.I struggled for most of the past year trying to be more like nycindie and FallenAngelina... To force myself to see love and intimacy the way they do. And in hindsight, I did a lot of damage to my relationships and myself in that attempt. Trying to be someone you're not never works. Trying to love in a way you don't never works. I caused myself endless agony trying to make a one-date-a-week relationship feel as close and intimate as my cohabiting partnership with my husband.
My advice to you, honestly, would be to accept the relationship with your girlfriend as it is, and accept however you feel about that. If seeing her twice a week is enjoyable, valuable, and makes your life better, celebrate that. Don't beat yourself up for not feeling as intimate or as close as you would if you spent every day together. See the happiness in what you have. Don't put up walls out of fear of getting close and missing her... But don't force yourself to try and feel things you don't. Just be, sit with whatever feelings come.
And if the relationship does stop making you happy, don't be afraid to be honest. There are some people in my life with whom I'm content to share time occasionally. There have been others where my feelings were too intense, and the pain of wanting to be with them more was too great, and two dates a week simply meant endless frustration.
I hope you and your girlfriend will find what works for you as a couple.
jayblue122
Member
Is part of this that you want longer periods of time together, rather than more frequent time together?
FallenAngelina
Well-known member
Just to clarify: I would never advocate that you or anyone contort herself into not wanting what she wants. If you and Anita thrive in love relationships in which a lot of time is spent together, then by all means, you both should have that. My point is that the struggle signifies that Anita is at odds with her own desire. A good amount of fear comes up for her and she'd benefit by looking into that rather than negotiating for more time. If she were at peace and clear with herself about the level of intimacy desired, there would be no push-pull in the relationship. They'd either settle easily into a mutually agreeable visiting frequency or they wouldn't last long at all due to lack of interest. My aim is to empower people to see how they are active co-creators in their relationships, not passive receptors, and to show that we need not get into struggles with others so often because what we struggle against is always inside of us. We can change so much more for the better in our relationships when we change ourselves, when we work to free ourselves of fear and worry instead of negotiating endlessly for more pleasing behavior from others. I would never tell anyone to prefer what I personally prefer in a relationship or that she should settle for less time than she wants.
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FallenAngelina
Well-known member
Hi icesong - i'm not sure if this is the right place or if you should possibly start another thread. ? I'm happy to talk about it, tho.
Thank you everyone for your advice and perspectives, it's so so helpful..
Jayblue122, at times I both would like more time with her and greater frequency. Something I value immensely is an extended period of time together, like an entire weekend, but I also very highly value seeing each other several times a week even if just for half an hour.
And yes, FallenAngelina, please do elaborate here, I think it's quite relevant to the thread!
Jayblue122, at times I both would like more time with her and greater frequency. Something I value immensely is an extended period of time together, like an entire weekend, but I also very highly value seeing each other several times a week even if just for half an hour.
And yes, FallenAngelina, please do elaborate here, I think it's quite relevant to the thread!
opalescent
Active member
anita,
You've gotten lots of food for thought from other folks. I just wanted to add that 'intimacy' is one of those big words that often means something completely different depending on who you talk to.
So I ask, what exactly do you mean by intimacy? What is intimacy? Is it time spent together? (And is 'time together' mean being in the same physical space? Or actually interacting with each other?) Physical touch? Intellectually stimulating conversations? Working towards shared goals? Sharing similar ideals? Sex?
The good news is that there is no 'wrong!' answer here. How we experience and create intimacy is often very specific to us (there are overlaps with others of course.) Just about every human wants intimacy but how we want it and how we offer it to others is hugely varied.
The bad news is that there can be serious incompatibility between partners in how they experience and create intimacy. This is not always something that can be overcome, or managed away.
There is nothing wrong with wanting a more intertwined relationship where much of your time is spent with each other. And there is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship that has a little more physical space and time apart. Both can feel sufficiently intimate - if that sustains each partner. However, if there is a mismatch, as seems to be the case here, it can be really tough. One of my exes thought of intimacy in ways that seemed to me to very limited. As a result, I was not getting what I needed from the relationship. There were other reasons we broke up but that lack, that feeling of starving for intimacy and not getting it, was the last straw.
So that's not very hopeful of me. It's possible to figure these things out. It's really hard though as experiencing intimacy, like love and how we think about money/career/jobs etc. are often so deeply enmeshed in our deepest self that it really feels like we are asking someone to utterly change who they are, or trying to make those changes.
You've gotten lots of food for thought from other folks. I just wanted to add that 'intimacy' is one of those big words that often means something completely different depending on who you talk to.
So I ask, what exactly do you mean by intimacy? What is intimacy? Is it time spent together? (And is 'time together' mean being in the same physical space? Or actually interacting with each other?) Physical touch? Intellectually stimulating conversations? Working towards shared goals? Sharing similar ideals? Sex?
The good news is that there is no 'wrong!' answer here. How we experience and create intimacy is often very specific to us (there are overlaps with others of course.) Just about every human wants intimacy but how we want it and how we offer it to others is hugely varied.
The bad news is that there can be serious incompatibility between partners in how they experience and create intimacy. This is not always something that can be overcome, or managed away.
There is nothing wrong with wanting a more intertwined relationship where much of your time is spent with each other. And there is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship that has a little more physical space and time apart. Both can feel sufficiently intimate - if that sustains each partner. However, if there is a mismatch, as seems to be the case here, it can be really tough. One of my exes thought of intimacy in ways that seemed to me to very limited. As a result, I was not getting what I needed from the relationship. There were other reasons we broke up but that lack, that feeling of starving for intimacy and not getting it, was the last straw.
So that's not very hopeful of me. It's possible to figure these things out. It's really hard though as experiencing intimacy, like love and how we think about money/career/jobs etc. are often so deeply enmeshed in our deepest self that it really feels like we are asking someone to utterly change who they are, or trying to make those changes.
I can answer this question easily because it's something we've talked about as a couple - intimacy can be anything, as long as there is shared time and/or space. Physical touch, conversation, sex, all come into play, as do other things like keeping in touch via email or SMS throughout the week. Variety. Going out to events together (where we might not directly interact for much of it) or preparing meals together can be just as intimate as cuddling on the couch, it's all pretty relative and intimacy needs the whole picture, not just one thing, for us. So I suppose when I say deeper intimacy, for me, it involves a more complete picture. I guess that means that I feel something is lacking.
While I would love to just be able to let go of my fears and open to her without reservation, I don't always have the last word in it because I'm still learning to control my defense mechanisms rather than have them control me. Long, long history of being hurt does that to you, I guess? The other part of it I suppose is that I'm afraid that if I do, it'll be too much for her. That's not an entirely unjustified fear - earlier in the relationship I've opened up more completely and she either hasn't been able to handle it in the moment or hasn't been able to handle it in terms of how much time and energy she's able to give me.
While I would love to just be able to let go of my fears and open to her without reservation, I don't always have the last word in it because I'm still learning to control my defense mechanisms rather than have them control me. Long, long history of being hurt does that to you, I guess? The other part of it I suppose is that I'm afraid that if I do, it'll be too much for her. That's not an entirely unjustified fear - earlier in the relationship I've opened up more completely and she either hasn't been able to handle it in the moment or hasn't been able to handle it in terms of how much time and energy she's able to give me.
GirlFromTexlahoma
New member
It can be really hard - for me at least! - to know whether a struggle comes from pushing oneself and growing, or trying to settle for something that will never feel right.
As an example, I had a VERY hard time initially with the idea of having sex outside my marriage. But after a lot of thinking and talking and pushing myself, I realized that my issues were coming from social scripts and fear of judgement. Not from within. Now I'm completely comfortable with the idea.
On the other hand, I also had a tough time trying to sustain intimacy and partnership with someone I only saw once a week. I did all the thinking and talking. I exhausted myself trying to make it work. And I finally realized that my needs for more time weren't coming from any kind of programming - they were genuine, real, this-is-how-I-love needs.
But I couldn't tell, in the beginning, which of those struggles would yield positive changes in my life, and which would just leave me feeling like I'd been slamming my head in a car door for a year.
So while I absolutely agree that being at peace with oneself is vital to having happy relationships - it's not as easy as it sounds, especially when confronting a new situation for the first time. Are the bad feelings defense mechanisms, unfounded fears - or your true self?
In Anita's case... How can she know if her feelings that something is lacking are coming from a genuine need for more/different intimacy, or from a misguided idea that relationships should look a certain way? I don't have any answers, the only way I have ever found to deal with those questions is to push through, try hard, and see what happens next. But I'll be the first to admit, that is not a quick road to inner peace
FallenAngelina
Well-known member
Anita, this is really helpful for you to know about yourself and explore. Nobody can just let go of fears, but looking at how fears serve us can be really beneficial so that we can make some peace with them and find other more fulfilling and effective ways to develop emotional safety. Our partners, however incompatible they may appear, are always showing us to ourselves and where we can find buried treasure if we are willing to look within. What bothers you, bothers you for a reason. If you were truly incompatible, you would have no emotional interest in your partner. Your fears and her "too much" fit perfectly together. Rather than choosing between negotiating needs and breaking up, both of which feel less than joyful, there is a way to move forward in this relationship, appreciating the treasure map that it offers to you. This takes the negative pressure off of the other person and takes your focus off of "big problem," putting it instead on a unique opportunity to gain insight about yourself and make some positive shifts that your relationship will reflect.
FallenAngelina
Well-known member
It really doesn't matter where fear comes from. Fear is fear and although it can be somewhat helpful to articulate its origins, focusing on fear always brings more fear. Truly feeling that something is lacking in a relationship would feel like disinterest. Feeling that the other person isn't giving enough, feeling that the other person is asking for too much - these are fears and they are always based in individual internal struggles that are playing out in a relationship in which there's an emotionally charged connection.
Fear feels pretty bad and although it "comes from within," it's not our natural state. Fear is always learned.
Something like "I want a partner who enjoys lots of time with me" is a desire, which is wonderful, natural and a guiding light in our lives. A desire, free of fear, feels fantastic. The way that we can tell the difference between fears and desires is how they feel. All of us have several desires that are mixed up with fears. The extent to which you can feel your desires, free of fear, is the extent to which you'll have peace of mind/a peaceful heart.
I have a different POV.
I think you are not your thoughts or your feelings. You are the person DOING the thinking and EXPERIENCING some feelings. So I think you DO have the last word in how you deal with the stimulus of your thoughts or your feelings.
You get to decide if you are going to REACT to a situation with defense mechanisms that you learned in the past and kick in on "auto-pilot."
Or if you are going to push the "override button" and RESPOND to a situation differently. "Manually" rather than on "auto pilot."
Some situations are fine on auto-pilot. Some are not. It's on you to actually discern which those situations are and how you want to handle things.
In this case? If you want to be close, then align your behavior with your want and be close then. Stop holding back so you aren't experiencing internal conflict clogs.
She is her own person with a voice. If you are actually doing something that bothers her? She can request you dial something down, ignore it, or do something else about it. And you can answer the request with "Ok, that is reasonable. I will do that" or "No. That is not reasonable. I will not do that." What's wrong with that?
But if you are basically just being you? And you being your authentic self is "too much for her" because it causes her to have to examine her baggage? She wants you to shrink yourself because then she can avoid dealing with stuff she wants to keep ignoring in her baggage? Well... You could say "No, thank you. I will not shrink myself. That is not a reasonable request. You can handle it on your own by sorting your baggage or choosing not to hang around me."
Don't be living your life tip-toeing around other people and "pre-shrinking yourself" just in case they cannot cope. So they cannot cope. It's on them to grow the coping skills. You aren't infringing by merely existing.
You are allowed to take up the space in the world that you do.
Galagirl
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I think we both have very similar approaches. I have always been one for the long, hard road - and have been given long, hard roads aplenty!On the other hand, I also had a tough time trying to sustain intimacy and partnership with someone I only saw once a week. I did all the thinking and talking. I exhausted myself trying to make it work. And I finally realized that my needs for more time weren't coming from any kind of programming - they were genuine, real, this-is-how-I-love needs.
But I couldn't tell, in the beginning, which of those struggles would yield positive changes in my life, and which would just leave me feeling like I'd been slamming my head in a car door for a year.
So while I absolutely agree that being at peace with oneself is vital to having happy relationships - it's not as easy as it sounds, especially when confronting a new situation for the first time. Are the bad feelings defense mechanisms, unfounded fears - or your true self?
In Anita's case... How can she know if her feelings that something is lacking are coming from a genuine need for more/different intimacy, or from a misguided idea that relationships should look a certain way? I don't have any answers, the only way I have ever found to deal with those questions is to push through, try hard, and see what happens next. But I'll be the first to admit, that is not a quick road to inner peace
Right now I don't know where exactly these feelings are coming from and what they represent in terms of my own identity, but I have a few ideas, places to start looking within myself.
Fortunately, in this relationship I am not exhausting myself or doing all of the work. We have both done some difficult work and it has been very mutually rewarding. It's a difficult balance, becoming the best version of yourself without changing who you are as a person.
Like FallenAngelina I am quite inclined not to view things as black and white - either we're compatible or we break up. I don't know that I'm invested in this relationship lasting 10 or 20 years, but I certainly am invested in making this relationship the best it can be now, which involves enjoying it to the best of my ability right now.
I agree with your sentiments and thank you for them. I *have* in the past spent a lot of time minimizing myself in order to accomodate other people, and a big part of that was self-esteem issues. It's only recently that my self-esteem has improved to the point where it isn't an issue in daily life anymore. I used to just give in to whatever anyone wanted of me and become whatever anyone wanted me to be, whereas now my boundaries are much firmer and I have a much stronger sense of identity. As far as having the last word or not, in most cases you would be right, but it's just not quite that simple for me. Mental illness has made it an extremely difficult thing to always have command of where my emotions, even with the most exerted and conscious mental effort. I believe I am always in control of my actions, but emotions are like oil for me, they slick through my fingers and I spend a lot of time going hand over hand trying to cup them.
IndieSolo
Active member
Heavens, why??? Just because people state their opinions, doesn't mean you should adopt those views as a way to be.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice to live the way I do, see things the way I do, or set up relationships the way I do. What works for me works for me. I only share my perspective as another way to look at things because we learn from seeing other sides to something. Anita's gf sounds like she has some preferences that are similar to my own, so I share my view as another way to see those kinds of preferences.
If we are inspired by other folks who write about their lives here, that's great, but it doesn't mean we should imitate them. Besides the fact that we're only seeing a small slice of someone's life here - people only reveal what they want to reveal.
But me? No one should be trying to emulate me or taking what I write here as a better way to do poly. Jeez, believe me, no one wants to live my life or know what it's like inside my head. I've worked a good long time on looking at myself and coming to terms with shit, but underneath it all, I'm as fucked up as anyone can be.
It's funny that I wrote that last sentence because my old therapist (whom I saw for about six years) used to say that about himself, haha. He was awesome.
How? By looking inward and asking questions of oneself, and drilling down further to the nugget underneath - without judging what one finds!
And I never said that any kinds of ideas or preconceptions about relationships that might be getting in Anita's way, or anyone's, are "misguided." They just are what they are. We were handed some, we created some, but we all hold ideas and images of what we want life to be. That isn't misguided, it's just.. dreaming. We just need to be able to discern between our dream life and the reality in front of us so we can enjoy and appreciate the here and now. Furthermore, I want to make clear that I was not criticizing Anita nor telling her she shouldn't have any pictures or goals for her relationships. I was simply saying, "look and see." Usually what has us in a state of upset is the expectations we hold.
Similarly, all our patterns -- of behavior and thinking -- and life strategies that our younger selves came up with were all solutions to problems at one time. Maybe we were four years old when we came up with a strategy, maybe fifteen, but it was simply a solution that we thought would help us, save us, bring us what we wanted, keep us alive, get us through, etc. So, I don't look down on those decisions and the thinking, belief systems, and patterns I built based on them. Our patterns and strategies served us in the past. The trick is now to let go of patterns that no longer serve us. Because the four year old me shouldn't be making decisions about how the 56 year old me should live her life.
The key, as always, is self-awareness. With awareness comes choices. We can still choose our old, familiar patterns and ways of being if we want, but at least we're choosing and not an unaware prisoner of our past.
Anita, sorry for writing about you in the third tense. I've been awake for hours and it was just too much for me to switch tenses and go back and forth between addressing you and GirlfromTexlahoma directly.
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Update - y'all were right, she's solo poly. We talked about it last night. It's a new realization for her, because she was in a long term primary relationship until last year. It's a relief to be able to put into clear terms, but I'm also kind of an emotional wreck right now because of that clarity. I at least had a little hope to hang on to before. Resisting the urge to go and do a bunch of research about solo polyamory because I think I'd just be trying to assuage my insecurity and confusion about it rather than letting the relationship itself do so.
Reminder to self - despite the fact that even the best of relationships have led to heartbreak, it doesn't follow that all relationships have to. Sigh.
Reminder to self - despite the fact that even the best of relationships have led to heartbreak, it doesn't follow that all relationships have to. Sigh.
IndieSolo
Active member
Solo poly isn't a bad thing! It just means she values her autonomy and independence, and is unlikely to want to move in with anyone. That doesn't mean she's totally against investing her heart and making commitments. Solo polyamorists just generally eschew hierarchies and the relationship escalator that leads to marriage-like total entwinement. You can still have a great relationship with her!
If you want a good source for understanding of solo poly, visit solopoly.net and read Aggiesez's blog posts about it.
If you want a good source for understanding of solo poly, visit solopoly.net and read Aggiesez's blog posts about it.
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Thanks for the resource. I don't mean to suggest that solo poly is bad in any way, it is just very incompatible with me.
I should specify, I don't care about the escalator. I'm not on it. As I think I mentioned earlier, I'd be just as content having her over for say 3 nights a week every now and then as I would if we were cohabiting, but solo poly for her puts even a single night spent together as the absolute limit of contact duration. Her ideal for our relationship is a 2-3 hour date once a week with me, sometimes twice a week. For her, that doesn't reflect an absence of love or caring or affection. For me, it's just.... I don't have words. I can't relate to it.
I should specify, I don't care about the escalator. I'm not on it. As I think I mentioned earlier, I'd be just as content having her over for say 3 nights a week every now and then as I would if we were cohabiting, but solo poly for her puts even a single night spent together as the absolute limit of contact duration. Her ideal for our relationship is a 2-3 hour date once a week with me, sometimes twice a week. For her, that doesn't reflect an absence of love or caring or affection. For me, it's just.... I don't have words. I can't relate to it.
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IndieSolo
Active member
Oh. Well, I'm solo poly and love overnights with my dates and lovers, so I'd say her preference is unique to her and not necessarily "typical" of solo poly.
I understand why you feel disappointed, since her style is so radically different from yours. However, I don't think you need to write the relationship off just yet. Even with the time constraints you've had, you two have been able to grow and deepen your relationship, and fall in love. But you might want to consider dating others and looking for a poly partner who is able to be more available to you, so that you aren't hanging all your hopes on the relationship you have, which won't satisfy the level of time and involvement you personally need. Maybe if you have someone who can satisfy those needs for you, you'll be more able to relax and enjoy what your current gf can offer.
I understand why you feel disappointed, since her style is so radically different from yours. However, I don't think you need to write the relationship off just yet. Even with the time constraints you've had, you two have been able to grow and deepen your relationship, and fall in love. But you might want to consider dating others and looking for a poly partner who is able to be more available to you, so that you aren't hanging all your hopes on the relationship you have, which won't satisfy the level of time and involvement you personally need. Maybe if you have someone who can satisfy those needs for you, you'll be more able to relax and enjoy what your current gf can offer.