Hello from C and D

T

Times2

New member
Hi, I am a "poly noob." I saw that term on a previous thread, thought it was cute, and figured I would use it, since that is exactly what me and my husband (Dylan) are. We have the real thing. Our kind of love is the truest of the blue. We have been married for nearly 10 years now (thanks to Anthrax-- long story).

We have been sexually involved with another couple the entire length of our marriage, and love them dearly, but we are looking for a more committed relationship, just for me and him. We have discussed seeking out a third person for our family for the last few years.

I was the one who brought it up to Dylan, who at first was pretty against the idea. He said that no one could come between him and me. When I explained to him that I wanted to love this new person like I love him, and wanted him to love the new person as he loves me, a wife, or a husband, then he finally started to understand what I was saying.

Though I love our other couple (our relationship with them started many years ago, for me, it has been twice as long as my marriage to Dylan), we don't have the kind of relationship with them that has been weighing so heavily on my mind.

My husband is John Wayne straight and I am bisexual, but we don't want just a new sexual partner. In fact, sex doesn't even have to play a role in it. Not that its forbidden, just not required.

We are looking for someone as committed to us as we are to each other. We want to court this new person, to fall in love, and hope he/she falls in love with us. My husband and I refer to each other as best friends. We want to add one to that.

Part of the thinking that led us here was: what if one of us dies? How will the other go on? The one left behind needs someone to help them get through the pain; someone to hold the hand and soothe the pain and love back to life, and convince me or him to go on.

This kind of sounds selfish, but our hope is that this new person will benefit from us. as well. We want a new member to our family.

Well, that's us. I hope to learn a lot, and maybe even find the person we are looking for here. :D
 
What if you meet an amazing woman, and there's chemistry between all three of you, and you start to build bonds, but then it becomes apparent that love had taken root between her and one of you, but not with the other? Would you let that relationship flower, or insist that she try to love you both, or insist that the relationship end? This is a very common scenario.
 
That is something that we would have to accept. We have talked about just this issue for a long time. We would have to be adult enough and open enough to back up and search our own hearts for any feelings of jealousy or resentment. I could not make someone love me any more than he could make someone love him, let alone try to force someone to love the other. All of us, as a unit, would have to accept the differences in our marriage.

We don't want a "short term, maybe it will work" kind of relationship. We want another husband, or wife, another member of our marriage. To me, that means the commitment I made to Dylan would be made to that person, as well. And those he made to me, be made to her or him, and vice versa.

I've seen this "unicorn" term floating around. I don't know that I like it, because it makes me think we will never find the soul we seek. But I have hope.

We've tossed this around for a couple of years now. We think it's time to act on it. :)
 
First of all, forgive me for being so rude and not saying this at the start -- hello and welcome!

It's good to hear that you guys have thought about this scenario and are committed to honoring whatever love comes your way, even if it doesn't take the exact form you are seeking. :)

It is certainly not impossible for you to find a woman who's into you both, but couples often set out with these very unrealistic ideas of who such a woman needs to be and how it will all work. Thus the unicorn term, since people think they are looking for a real woman, but are actually looking for an idealized imaginary woman to fulfill a role, and are shocked when reality doesn't match with fantasy. Here are some good thoughts from the perspective of the potential new woman that may be helpful for you: http://www.morethantwo.com/coupledating.html
 
We grok, Times2.

We are looking for someone as committed to us as we are to each other. We want to court this new person and hope to fall in love and hope he/she falls in love with us.
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We have had a hard time explaining this part to people at times. Most monogamists think of polyfidelity as polygamy, and I have no idea how the general poly community views it.

That article was very interesting. Thank you for sharing it, AnnabelMore.
 
AnnabelMore, thank you for the link. Very intelligent piece. I believe that NathandDom understand completely what we are looking for. I suppose that the kind of relationship Dylan and I are talking about could be considered polygamy, because for all intents and purposes, we are looking for a second wife or second husband, whichever we find, and all the responsibilities and benefits that would bring.

I think this is something he and I have discussed for so long that we've already, in our hearts, accepted this new wife/husband. So now we just have to find him/her. I suppose the feelings we have could be compared to those of the polygamist-fundamentalist Mormons, without the religion part, and there may or may not be sexual contact, as that would not be a requirement. Don't get me wrong, I love sex, and am bisexual, but this is an affair of the heart we seek, not of the loins.

So if you look at it in the context of polygamy, then this new person would take on the same role as any husband/wife with one of us, or both of us, whatever the case may be.

One of the biggest things that brought us here was the death of one of us. You hear these romantic stories of couples who are so entwined spiritually and emotionally that when one of them passes on, the other follows shortly thereafter. That would happen to us. The one left would grieve themselves to death.

I have two grown children. He has two nearly adult children. We do not have a child together. So if one of us dies, we will lose everything of the other. I want to make sure that there is someone there to lean on for whoever is left.

So often you hear about a husband who marries within months after his wife's death, or vice versa, and everyone presumes the "affair" was happening prior to the spouse's death. I believe that it most likely wasn't, and that these grieving partners are looking for someone to fill that void, that emptiness, and anyone will do.

This way, there is a prior relationship, one that has grown and flourished, and everyone involved has had to chance to love and witness the kind of life the other may lead after a passing.

I saw the term "line marriage" in the Glossary, and it kind of describes it, to some degree. Say I die first. Dylan and his other wife, B, grieve for me, but are very in love themselves, and they go on and have a happy life together. But then, the same worries come about for them. So they seek out yet another, so that no one will ever be left alone. They find this person, fall in love, and again there are three. I think it's a wonderful way to live and keep love alive. :)
 
This all sounds romantic, if a bit morbid.

You say you are looking for a wife or a husband, yet your husband is straight. So if you "brought in a third to share" that was male, he and your Dylan would not be sexual partners, just good friends, at most. (Let's call this guy Brayden.) If Dylan needed to lean on Braden for support if you died, how would that be different than leaning on any of his other good friends, or perhaps brothers or sisters? Both men would've lost their wife.

You assume they would both then rather quickly find a new wife for them to share, to replace you? How is this different from your scenario where a widower remarries the first woman that comes along? What if they both instead got their own girlfriends or wives? Maybe Dylan would want a new gf sooner, but Braden took longer to get over your death, and didn't want to date any other women for longer than Dylan?

Do you expect them to go out looking for women with the line, "We are both widowers of the same woman. Would you be interested in taking her place?" ;)
 
First, I want to wish you luck on your journey. I completely get what you are saying, and applaud the openness of you and Dylan to find this other person. My husband and I have brought a third person into our marriage. We started out as friends, and we both ended up falling in love with her, and she loves both of us. We have often compared it to the love we share for each other. In fact, he refers to both of us as his wives, and we both refer to him as our husband.

I am sure you have thought about this, but I warn you of the emotionality of what you are embarking on. It is a very tricky scenario to get around. There will be times that jealousy and such things can take you to the brink of disaster. Even with the love all of us share, it can be a slippery slope sometimes. But, as long as everyone is willing to sit down and talk about whatever issues creep up, and find a solution that works for everyone, then you should be fine.

Again, I applaud you and your husband and wish you the best of luck finding what you are looking for.
 
Thank you both for your replies.

I am sorry it all sounds a bit morbid, but it is how we got here.

Magdlyn, we have discussed this, and you are right, the most another man could offer my husband is companionship and friendship, should it be me that passes first. And, of course, they will have both lost a wife. If they choose to meet and marry someone new, then that would be their decision to make. And if they choose to end the "sharing" upon my death, that is also their decision to make.

The purpose isn't to continue the marriage. That is why it isn't exactly a "line marriage." The purpose is make sure that the one left behind has someone to lean on, either through companionship or intimate relationship, whatever the case may be. I just want to make sure Dylan has a friend, someone who know him and knows what he needs to get through his loss.

If we meet another man, then he will know exactly what Dylan is going through and hopefully will be able to extend a friendship unlike his other friends could, because he will have known and hopefully loved me as intimately has Dylan has. If we meet another woman, then he will have her to continue to live for, and she will help him through this hard loss even if she never felt anything other than deep friendship for me. It would be the same for me if Dylan should pass on first.

We have thoroughly discussed all of these issues. We have not made this decision based solely on the eventuality of one of us dying, but it is what started the conversation. At first, Dylan said things like "It could work, but you would always be the most important one in my life." Our conversations have evolved from that to "When we meet her or him, we will know, because I will love that person enough to call her my wife or him my best friend."

There are many reasons we have decided to find another. We have talked about the financial aspect of it, the benefits to both that person and ourselves.

We are a mature, intelligent and open-minded couple who have room for another, and love enough to share. We know what we want. We know that communication is key.

I don't look at it unlike meeting another wife or husband. I have made vows to Dylan, and him to me. We take those vows seriously. To love, honor, and cherish are first and foremost. We both have the expectation to make those vows to the third as well, though it would be a vow of friendship to a male on Dylan's part.

Dylan has a very good friend in the male of our sm/bf couple. But he is devoted to his wife, not to me. We jokingly refer to him as my boyfriend, and her as my husband's girlfriend, but they are devoted to one another. We are wonderful, loving friends, but are secondary to their family unit and their marriage.

We want a third within the confines of OUR marriage, devoted to us, and us to him or her.

I am truly surprised that a poly community seems to be a bit baffled by this, or almost seems to be questioning my intent. If you aren't, then I apologize for the assumption.

I am here to make new friends, learn new things, and see if Dylan and I can make that ever-elusive love connection with another. I appreciate all the input. If nothing else, my thoughts and intentions are really getting explained and put out there in the most upfront and honest way possible, I guess. That can only be a good thing.
 
Times2 said:
Dylan has a very good friend in the male of our sm/bf couple. But he is devoted to his wife, not to me. We jokingly refer to him as my boyfriend, and her as my husband's girlfriend, but they are devoted to one another. We are wonderful, loving friends, but are secondary to their family unit and their marriage.
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See, I feel sort of sad that you two have a loving working quad situation, but you'd toss it aside if and when you find your "third." Good friends, lovers and good (I assume) sex are hard to find in this life. Would it be so easy to let them go after all you've shared, if and when you find your unicorn?

For example, TL4everU2 here has a blog about his and his wife's long and frustrating search for another couple.


We want a third within the confines of OUR marriage, devoted to us, and us to him or her.

I am truly surprised that a poly community seems to be a bit baffled by this, or almost seems to be questioning my intent. If you aren't, then I apologize for the assumption.
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It might be because so many here that were partnered, and newly open to polyamory, that looked for a unicorn at first, for whatever reason, have been burnt really badly by this. What usually happens is, once NRE fades, the unicorn starts to prefer one or the other of the couple, and major jealousy and hurt feelings ensue.
I am here to make new friends, learn new things and see if Dylan and I can make that ever-elusive love connection with another. I appreciate all the input. If nothing else, my thoughts and intentions are really getting explained and put out there in the most upfront and honest way possible, I guess. This can only be a good thing.
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Good luck on your quest. There are as many ways to do polyamory as there are people practicing it.
 
I don't think anyone is baffled. What you're looking for is very common (thus the existence of a term for it, "unicorn hunters). It's actually quite the opposite. I think most people on this board are very familiar with the idea of a couple seeking a third, and the purpose of our questions is to see if you've thought through the implications of what you're seeking more thoroughly than others who've come before, who met with trouble they didn't expect.

I hope that doesn't sound too condescending.

Another question-- what if you meet another person who's into you and who you're both into, but this person had an existing relationship, or even am existing life partnership? Would that be acceptable, or are you only looking for someone single?
 
Maybe I'm just in a weird mood today, but this thread is fascinating. I'd like to see how this plays out along the journey. Now who is the morbid one? And no, I am not predicting disaster, or anything like that.

I think the honesty about how they got to where they are is very refreshing. There really are couples who are that intertwined that they pine away when one of them passes on. Coming to poly out of a conversation that started from concern for a partner in the event of the passing of the other is not something I'd ever heard of before.

As a relative newbie myself, I get where the "oldies but goodies" are coming from about the unicorn. I suspect that many of us ventured into poly with a unicorn in mind, and eventually realized how we were blocking ourselves and our partners from being open to love however it comes along.

Being open to different possible configurations takes a lot of work, and perhaps, a level of commitment and communication that induces so much anxiety in some that they hold onto an ideal that seems safe. I'm by no means accusing any particular couple here of doing that, just wondering about the whole unicorn phenomenon. Sure it seems less fraught with complications, but the realities I've seen and read about put that myth to rest.

Sorry to ramble in your thread. I really do hope ya'll will blog, or some such, about your journey and the transformations you experience.
 
What happens if the person you eventually meet happens to die first? Would they need to be replaced so that when one of you die the original spouse still has someone to lean on?
 
Thank you for your insight. It is much appreciated.

We don't plan on casting aside our couple. We love them and would never do that. However, they are sexual partners who have cooled off to a meeting just once or twice a year. It has become more of a "hang out, have a good time together, non-sexual relationship," mostly. They are very, very good friends. However, the reason it has cooled off is because they are devoted to one another. Would we be able to lean on them in a time of need? Certainly. But it isn't the same. For him, her needs will always take precedence. For her, his will.

We are outsiders to their marriage. I don't think of myself as a sex tool first with them, but that is pretty much, other than great friendship, what I am, what we are.

That's why we are here to find someone who will put us first, be our wife or husband. Our current friends/sex partners would completely understand that, and would not pass judgement on us for it. Our new person would love them too, but sex would not be a requirement.

If our new person didn't want them to be involved with us sexually anymore, then we wouldn't be, because the new person would be our new marriage partner and, therefore, outrank our friends.

It's complicated, I suppose. But it's something we have decided to do. We hope to grow and find someone to share our life, our marriage with.
 
Wow. It is cool that you have been with another couple all your marriage. I have been married for ten years too, and poly longer than that. We have run the gamut on relationship configurations and have found over the years that our independence of each other is what has brought the most successful relationship dynamics.

Seeing ourselves as a couple only freaked people out, for the most part, or they eventually fell in love with one of us, not both. We would usually start with great sex. Then they would change to loving just one of us, while we both loved them. We started as a triad. I met my husband that way. He came into my relationship with my wife. But that marriage ended, as a result. I was naive to think that it would work. It rarely works for the long haul. If I had known better at the time, I would have suggested a vee. But we were stubborn. And it blew apart.

It's hard to wrap one's head around independence (the opposite of co-dependence) when all we know and are raised with is coupledom. But I really suggest trying to figure it out. It has meant that we are now the strongest we have ever been, and could live with or without each other without feeling like love is scarce. Love is abundant if we let go of owning one another and feeling like we will be alone in life.

There is a lot here to read on "unicorns," if you are interested. Its a hot topic that comes around often. There are also some really good writings on "foundations" and "lessons" in terms of poly. They might help, too. Check the search engine. Looking around and getting an idea on people's stories might be helpful.

Btw, thank you for not starting a account where you both write. It's so confusing and annoying for those of us reading. Appreciate that. :)
 
I also find this thread completely fascinating, and most informative and enlightening. Some of this is still unfamiliar to me though, like V or 'vee'... what is that exactly?

As for the new third having a previous relationship or current relationship, well, we aren't really at that particular point, but if the person we fall in love with is involved elsewhere, then we would definitely have to reevaluate... Since that person would be part of the new person we want to be part of, then we would have to discuss if we would want to continue, or if it would be better to let them go.

I don't want to sound selfish, but we know what we want. We hope to find a single person to add to our marriage, not a couple. We kind of don't think that will be much of an issue, simply because we won't be looking for that couple, but be seeking out a single who hopefully will be seeking a couple like us.

You may start thinking now-- what if the new person meets someone, and wants the chance to explore their feelings with that 4th person? That would not be something we would be willing to be a part of. We aren't looking for another couple. We aren't looking for a quad relationship, or communal marriage. We simply want one more person to be married to. And if that person is married to us, then there would be no others but us. We want a wife or a husband, a faithful spouse, for the rest of our lives.

Now the question has been raised about the possibility of the new person dying before Dylan or I do. I hadn't really thought of that. But we discussed it. We both agree that if that should happen, then we will have been blessed with the opportunity to have had a loving, nourishing relationship with that soul and would be able to comfort each other during our time of loss. Would we then go seek out another? Maybe, maybe not. To find it once is apparently a long shot; twice might be impossible.

I really appreciate the responses from each and every one of you. This is keeping the conversations between me and Dylan very interesting indeed.
 
Times2 said:
I don't want to sound selfish, but we know what we want. We hope to find a single person to add to our marriage, not a couple. We kind of don't think that will be much of an issue, simply because we won't be looking for that couple, but seeking a single who hopefully will be seeking a couple like us.
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My guess is that this would greatly limit your options of partners, especially considering that you're not (I assume?) in the age bracket where people are not yet likely to have sought out a life partnership (late teens, early 20s). There are definitely some great solo poly people out there who are older than that (hi, NYCindie! :)), but it may well be that they are single out of choice and aren't looking for a closed life partnership.

I think it's this desire that the new person come without existing partnerships, or existing "complications," that leads to unicorns often being younger then the couple they're joining. This is definitely a pattern I've noticed. This can lead to other problems, unfortunately, such as the new person being a little naive, and not really knowing what they want, or what they're getting into, and/or not having the communication and relationship skills to navigate the situation once they're in it.

It takes someone really strong and confident to stand up for their needs in a healthy, effective way, facing two people with a long-standing partnership, when they're the newbie who's still figuring out how they fit in, *especially* when the other people are older and more experienced. Such a person who can really handle that tricky position well -- probably an experienced poly person in your own age bracket -- is likely to have one or more old flames, lovers or partners that they'd be loathe to discard for a couple of new people and an untried triad. I'm not saying it'd be impossible to find such a person, just hard. Maybe a divorcee, widow or widower.

Times2 said:
You may start thinking now-- what if the new person meets someone and wants the chance to explore their feelings with that 4th person? That would not be something we would be willing to be part of. We aren't looking for another couple. We aren't looking for a quad relationship, or communal marriage. We simply want one more person to be married to. And if that person is married to us, then there would be no others but us. We want a wife or a husband, a faithful spouse, for the rest of our lives.
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To be honest, I do find this bit really, really selfish. You two have been involved with another couple for years, so you *know* that commitment and sexual exploration with others are not mutually exclusive. So why demand sexual fidelity from your new third when you've been living happily without it for so long? Why assume they can't be serious with you and still be interested in someone else? Why leave the door open to continue being involved with the other couple you two have your long-standing affair with, as long as it's okay with the newbie, but bar the door to anyone else they like?

You two have been together a long time. You have your established patterns and rhythms. You know with absolute certainty the roles you play in each other's lives. There's great safety and comfort in that. No matter how welcoming you try to be to your new third, it will take a long time -- years, if ever, before he or she really feels on the same "level" as that with you. After all, I'm sure it didn't all happen overnight for you two!

So, under the scenario you've described, you two get the security of your settled love, AND the thrilling, scary, exciting, tumultuous experience of new love, while the new person only is allowed the latter. How is that supposed to make him or her feel like they're really being treated fairly? You two got to decide for yourselves that you were ready to open up to a new love without it risking your existing love. How is it that the new person is never to be allowed to make that same determination?

I'm absolutely sure you guys have pure hearts and only the best intentions. I am. But what you're looking to do will radically alter your existing relationship, and build brand new ones within the triad you look to form. That might be wonderful, but it will also almost certainly be unpredictable, and it will take a great deal of discarding of preconceptions and openness to what comes, and to the fact that it may not look like what you'd expected.

With what you've described, you two make all the choices, set all the standards and rules, and the new person can take it or leave it. I don't see that as authentically building a new, equal, three-way relationship. I see that as trying to find the simplest, least threatening way to add a new person to your existing relationship, like an accessory, like (as you've described above) a "love insurance policy" for when one of you dies. The reason I've taken all the time to type this out is to convey one message -- it's likely gonna be more complicated than that.

Btw, a "vee" is when one person is partnered to two people who aren't partnered to each other.
 
Thank you so much for your input, AnnabelMore. It is greatly appreciated. You have made us look again at what it is we expect.

You are right. Some of this does seem very very selfish for us to ask of someone from the poly community. As we have been posting and putting into black and white our intentions and thoughts, the more we are understanding that maybe the polyamorous community isn't where we need to be. Apparently, we are polygamists.

Now that you have brought up the issue of the other couple, we can agree, have agreed, that because the other couple are our best friends, and will understand exactly what we are looking for, and why it's important to us, we would not ask the new person to accept or be part of any extramarital activities with them. And we would cease, as well. How could we ask someone to be faithful to us, but be okay with us wanting to get kinky with old friends?

I suppose we just learned that what we truly want is a plural marriage... polygamy. Exclusivity between three spouses. Thank you for helping us learn that about ourselves.
 
Heh, it's funny. I thought it would be obvious that my suggestion would've been to consider opening up more, rather than the reverse. But you guys are not me, and I certainly can't tell you what's right for you. I'm glad you found my words of use.

I would say that the sort of closed, three-person polygamous marriage you're seeking is a form of "polyfidelity" (closed relationships between more than two people), which is a form of polyamory (love between more than two people), so you're still in the family, in my book. :)

You may continue to get people questioning your method, since more than one person here has started with the goal you did, and then moved to a more open model (as per RP's story above). Still, I would encourage you to continue viewing our community as a potential source of help, even if you chose not to identify with it per se, since 1) we have members in three-person relationships, and people who practice polyfidelity, and 2) you say it's helped so much already.

I do have to ask -- why do you consider sexual exclusivity such an important condition for your new partner when you have two examples of marriages, yours and that of your friends/sex partners, that have functioned without it for so long, with no diminishing of love or commitment? That puzzles me.
 
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