hi, I'm challenged

S

SomeDudeLearning

New member
Hi.
I'm Kelly, in Columbia Mo.
I feel like poly is the ethical, logical, way, but over the last nine years it's made me feel like a fumbling buffoon trying to experience anything extra on my side of the relationship.
Guys, poly or not, don't seem to care much about relationship status, plus the rule is that guys do the hitting on. So my partner has had tons of fun opportunities and experiences over the course of our time being involved. There's been about 8 months total of the fifteen years where my emotional state over feeling like I couldn't participate forced us to be separated, so I spent that time by myself.
I've dumped tons of time and effort into research, observation, and trying to learn what I need to do in this situation, as an introvert without an existing friend base.
Making friends has been difficult because males kind of make me uncomfortable anymore, and I just don't know how to ask women to spend time with me outside social events without them acting all uncomfortable too.
I really want polyamory to be the fun experience it looks like it should be on paper. I feel that if I had social skills and liked going out doing the things others do for fun together, I'd be a good catch for a woman looking for a decent man. As I'm lacking in both those features, those women don't get to have me walk up and introduce myself as a prospect for any sort of interaction.
In my opinion, and the opinions of some other guys and a few women who are friends only, I'm pretty cool and worth getting to know. I'm just not good enough at the process of connecting with new people to have developed any of the tons of acquaintance level interactions I have with people in town, into actual friendship, for fun or just company.
So, yeah, I'm here, trying to learn, be more open minded, and broaden my horizons and options to make life better for both myself and my partner by learning ways to be happy with our relationship. I know imbalance makes me very unhappy, so I'm looking for the same kinds of relationships and interactions my lady has fall on her out of the sky.

Call it jealousy if you want, she does. I call it bitterness over not having the same easy potentials to enjoy life for years of watching it at close range.
 
You have to get out there and do it. You can't research life and get it right the first time. You have to live it.

And who's rule is it that guys have to do the hitting on?
 
Hi Kelly - and welcome to the Forum!

I know imbalance makes me very unhappy, so I'm looking for the same kinds of relationships and interactions my lady has fall on her out of the sky.
Click to expand...

This imbalance has been a top of significant discussion here and elsewhere many times. Yes, in general, the imbalance exists - certainly it is not just you. As one of our regular posters has put it, "Poly women are like catnip to men, but women avoid poly men like the plague". This is not "fair" but it is most often true - part of the reason being that women often believe men are lying when they say they are "poly" or have an "open marriage" (especially when they say it is a "don't ask, don't tell arrangement") - just so they have a better chance of getting the girl. But that doesn't mean that you have no chance at all - and your best chance is probably in the poly community. Get involved in the local poly community (there are often brunches, dinners, get togethers, etc - as well as local FB groups) - don't "look for dates" immediately - just get to know the community. You most likely will never have the number of offers that your wife has or the ease in getting those offers that she does, but there should be no reason you can't connect with a poly partner in time. But as Vinsanity noted - you have to do it. Best of luck! Al
 
Greetings Kelly,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

Sorry to hear you have had bad luck on the dating front. Believe me, it's nothing about you ... men just don't have the same luck as women. I spent quite a bit of time on OKCupid, put a lot of effort into my profile and accepted many people's suggestions on how to improve ... no luck. So just don't feel alone in this, you have company.

I hope Polyamory.com can help you in some small way, and that you can meet new people here and make new friends. Have a look around, and keep on posting!

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter" :)

Notes:

There's a *lot* of good info in Golden Nuggets. Have a look!

Please read through the guidelines if you haven't already.

Note: You needn't read every reply to your posts, especially if someone posts in a disagreeable way. Given the size and scope of the site it's hard not to run into the occasional disagreeable person. Please contact the mods if you do (or if you see any spam), and you can block the person if you want.

If you have any questions about the board itself, please private-message a mod and they'll do their best to help.

Welcome aboard!
 
vinsanity0 said:
You have to get out there and do it. You can't research life and get it right the first time. You have to live it.

And who's rule is it that guys have to do the hitting on?
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Certainly not my rule! I was comparatively lucky in my youth and women sometimes broke that rule.
I've had multiple discussions about it since I started this whole "go out and try" trip in 2009 with a involuntary monogamous hiatus between '12 and '17.
Apparently lots of men react badly to women being at all forward without playing stupid flirt games instead, so women have had enough bad experiences, most of them just don't seem to be willing to admit interest first. It takes a really strong woman to ignore the common idiotic unspoken rules of conduct.
Maybe you hang out with a different kind of people than I've had experience being around.

Al99 said:
Hi Kelly - and welcome to the Forum!



This imbalance has been a top of significant discussion here and elsewhere many times. Yes, in general, the imbalance exists - certainly it is not just you. As one of our regular posters has put it, "Poly women are like catnip to men, but women avoid poly men like the plague". This is not "fair" but it is most often true - part of the reason being that women often believe men are lying when they say they are "poly" or have an "open marriage" (especially when they say it is a "don't ask, don't tell arrangement") - just so they have a better chance of getting the girl. But that doesn't mean that you have no chance at all - and your best chance is probably in the poly community. Get involved in the local poly community (there are often brunches, dinners, get togethers, etc - as well as local FB groups) - don't "look for dates" immediately - just get to know the community. You most likely will never have the number of offers that your wife has or the ease in getting those offers that she does, but there should be no reason you can't connect with a poly partner in time. But as Vinsanity noted - you have to do it. Best of luck! Al
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well, for the good it does, I'm in the only local Facebook poly oriented group I'm aware of. Being a bit square with few real friends it's hard to get good data.
I'm unaware of any in-person groups closer than saint Louis. And I'm not looking for long distance relationships, that's not what pains me to watch but not have.
I don't feel I've got no chance, just that it's super weak. After all this time, one poly lady actually has shown a little interest, she just doesn't have free time I can fit into so it's been nearly impossible to hang out. So far I'm up to a year of being pen pals and two weeks ago a meet-to-evaluate get together. That's the most significant interaction I've managed since 2009 unless you count women going out with me specifically to tell me they're not interested, or the one night stand my partner set me up with at the beginning of 2013 that triggered two months of no sex and four years of her wanting to be monogamous (which I complied with, not like I've got anything going on anyway.)

The community with poly people here appears to be the burner community.
The guys are friendly enough, wow that's sure a real help with my feelings and wants, right? The women, I don't know how to deal with.
I try to be friendly but get superficiality. The dating/relationship game? I'm an ancient baby idiot in that field. My lifetime counter is up to four, maybe five, "dates" in the accepted sense of the word, not counting while I was already in relationships with the ladies first. Those "date" experiences are all since trying to make my feelings better about poly beyond the "that'd sure be awesome to participate in" logical outlook I've got for it.
My lack of positivity for my partner's extra fun is caused by the total lack of extra fun for me. Can't help it and it only gets bigger, the longer I struggle with it.
The local women in the burner group have not reacted well to me except for superficial conversation is acceptable in public events. I'm not good at breaking pay the superficialities unless there's, well, clear interest in me doing so. Lack of disinterest isn't adequate to bust the bubble of civilized conversation and possibly alternate a potential new friend. I need friends who are women too, not just companions.
And the very few women in that group I've met who have clearly acknowledged being poly either aren't interested in or aren't interesting to me.
Nobody wears signs, especially women due to slut-shaming, saying Hi I'm Poly!
I don't know for to "out "myself as available and interested. I don't want to hit on every girl out there and I don't have any good criteria for selection. I don't know any of them well enough to name anyone friend, and being male, older, and involved makes it really difficult to even get women to be lightly friendly.
Fun, right? I hear it's supposed to be.
 
My only advice would be to keep on trying, I don't know any tips or tricks for finding interesting women. Perhaps your initial focus should be on making friends; worry about the dating later.
 
kdt26417 said:
My only advice would be to keep on trying, I don't know any tips or tricks for finding interesting women. Perhaps your initial focus should be on making friends; worry about the dating later.
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I've always held that out as a totally acceptable option for interaction with the women I've talked to about deeper interests. I think the fear of ulterior motives may scare those ladies off. On the bright side of that, I'm always at least trying to be clear and up front about myself and my social position, so I don't feel I'm misleading anyone.

Still, yeah, realistically I gave up pretty quick on finding meaningful or meaningless sex early in the game. It didn't take long to figure out that unless I wanted to be shady, that was going to take a lot of time and energy investment to be able to work up to.

Being committed to a lady long term scares away a lot of other women from even being friends. Not all, but a lot. They don't want her to feel bad. Men generally have no such restrictions in the reverse situation, unfortunately, whether about being friends or really really good friends.
I don't want her to feel bad either. I want her to have a happy life just like I want one.
I'm working hard on compersion (again) and hoping that being agnostic isn't having excessive impact on the concept of built-up good karma for being honest and straightforward when duplicitous and shady would've far better suited the dark side of what I've felt was missing from my personal life outside the family unit.
 
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My experience seems to be somewhat unusual.

Annie was/is lovely (we split a couple decades ago & don't much keep in touch anymore). Me... not so much. :D She'd been getting "hit on" since her mid-teens, so was long past getting all giggly & twitterpated just because some random guy showed interest in fucking her. And she already KNEW that not only did I adore her BUT it happened that I was one of the better lovers she'd had, so she didn't feel any sharp need to lower her standards.

Women found it safe to talk to me, because they could be certain I wasn't being shady -- heck, Annie'd tell me to give 'em her phone number. :)

I dunno that I'd call polyamory "a fun experience." Like breathing, it's better than the alternative, I guess. ;) Are you maybe referring to nonmonogamy, like swinging or sexual opennness, rather than polyamory? Like, in that nine years of experience, how many of your wife's relationships have been stable for a year or more?

Most fundamentally, your self-image doesn't look at all good. Start there. Therapy would help.
 
Ravenscroft said:
My experience seems to be somewhat unusual.

Annie was/is lovely (we split a couple decades ago & don't much keep in touch anymore). Me... not so much. :D She'd been getting "hit on" since her mid-teens, so was long past getting all giggly & twitterpated just because some random guy showed interest in fucking her. And she already KNEW that not only did I adore her BUT it happened that I was one of the better lovers she'd had, so she didn't feel any sharp need to lower her standards.

Women found it safe to talk to me, because they could be certain I wasn't being shady -- heck, Annie'd tell me to give 'em her phone number. :)

I dunno that I'd call polyamory "a fun experience." Like breathing, it's better than the alternative, I guess. ;) Are you maybe referring to nonmonogamy, like swinging or sexual opennness, rather than polyamory? Like, in that nine years of experience, how many of your wife's relationships have been stable for a year or more?

Most fundamentally, your self-image doesn't look at all good. Start there. Therapy would help.
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Well, from what I've read, I'm not properly poly because in my low self esteem aspect I don't like being friendly with my partner's partners. It's an open relationship where there's permission to play around but no requirement of everyone getting along.
I only have one aspect with low self esteem. 99% of my personality and self, I'm happy with and feel that I'm often better off than others.
That 1% left gets triggered by feeling like I've got no choice about being left out of the fun part of having an open relationship, except for taking the long path, which I am working on.
 
One of my friends swears on a book by Mark Manson: Attracting women through honesty. I don't know if it would help you any.

You do seem to have a lot of beliefs about how men are and how women are and behave.
I encourage you to reconsider. You could maybe see yourself as being someone not-quite-mainstream relating to those who are also exceptional.
After all, by adopting polyamory, you're already doing something radical. Stereotypes don't help.
 
SomeDudeLearning said:
Well, from what I've read, I'm not properly poly because in my low self esteem aspect I don't like being friendly with my partner's partners. It's an open relationship where there's permission to play around but no requirement of everyone getting along.
I only have one aspect with low self esteem. 99% of my personality and self, I'm happy with and feel that I'm often better off than others.
That 1% left gets triggered by feeling like I've got no choice about being left out of the fun part of having an open relationship, except for taking the long path, which I am working on.
Click to expand...

Maybe you are reading the wrong things. Being friends with your partner's partners is not important. The key to poly is being open to multiple loving relationships. You said playing around, which is not poly, but that's okay.

Nothing wrong with the long path. My wife and I were friends for a couple years before we got together. Even then she was married to someone else at first. And she was the one who hit on me lol.
 
Tinwen said:
One of my friends swears on a book by Mark Manson: Attracting women through honesty. I don't know if it would help you any.

You do seem to have a lot of beliefs about how men are and how women are and behave.
I encourage you to reconsider. You could maybe see yourself as being someone not-quite-mainstream relating to those who are also exceptional.
After all, by adopting polyamory, you're already doing something radical. Stereotypes don't help.
Click to expand...

Good points, especially the preconceptions. I've been lectured before about basing that on experience and observation rather than optimism.
I'll check out the book. Thanks. Constructive data.
vinsanity0 said:
Maybe you are reading the wrong things. Being friends with your partner's partners is not important. The key to poly is being open to multiple loving relationships. You said playing around, which is not poly, but that's okay.

Nothing wrong with the long path. My wife and I were friends for a couple years before we got together. Even then she was married to someone else at first. And she was the one who hit on me lol.
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I figure if I'd read the right things maybe I'd be further down that long path.
And the whole way trying to play along with this game, I'd have been happy to have even multiple friendly relationships. I figure if I were good at pulling those out of the ether, I'd have a fair chance of evolving them. Loving relationships? That's somewhere down that long path aforementioned.
 
Tinwen said:
One of my friends swears on a book by Mark Manson: Attracting women through honesty. I don't know if it would help you any.

You do seem to have a lot of beliefs about how men are and how women are and behave.
I encourage you to reconsider. You could maybe see yourself as being someone not-quite-mainstream relating to those who are also exceptional.
After all, by adopting polyamory, you're already doing something radical. Stereotypes don't help.
Click to expand...

I read what I could find about the book.
It looks pretty good. The common, yet hardly doable, thread between it and others I've read, is the self-love requirement. That one is rough.
Ironic that I find so much of myself pretty awesome... Except for this. This part of me, I'd happily delete without second thoughts. It's really hard going 35 years without ever seriously failing to manage anything important to oneself, and then suddenly have to spend a flipping decade failing to manifest something that's important enough to feel truly bad about not having.

Since the going advice seems to be "Choke it down and make it happen like magic," or, "Most other guys are as bad off themselves, cope with it," and that's very close to ten years deep now...

I'm renewing my search for sex drive suppressants. Can't use it often enough to keep it happy, super tired of dealing with it and all its various side effects on mood and outlook on life... Want it gone. Preferably gone completely and not reduced.
And yes, if I were in the appropriate income bracket, I would totally have had surgery by now to make this stop permanently.

Any useful suggestions? When you can't catch one thing, switch bait.
 
I'm sorry you struggle.

I feel that if I had social skills and liked going out doing the things others do for fun together, I'd be a good catch for a woman looking for a decent man. As I'm lacking in both those features, those women don't get to have me walk up and introduce myself as a prospect for any sort of interaction.
Click to expand...

I wonder what you are doing to develop better social skills? Are you willing to read a book? Take a class? Something else?

To me it would be flipped if the desired outcome is better social skills.

You start walking up to women and introduce yourself as a prospect for some kind of interaction in ORDER TO DEVELOP the desired social skills.

In getting to know the people, you figure out if there are things in common you both might like doing together for fun.

In my opinion, and the opinions of some other guys and a few women who are friends only, I'm pretty cool and worth getting to know. I'm just not good enough at the process of connecting with new people...
Click to expand...

What makes connecting with new people hard for you? For me? I have to do it one to one or in small groups. I cannot deal with big groups. I hate small talk, so trying to do it in large numbers wears me out. I can manage it in smaller groups.

Is it something like that or something else that makes connecting hard?

It almost sounds like maybe you think your chances for dating as a "poly person" are limiting you even more than if you were just dating as a "plain single." But if you stopped participating in the poly thing, that means ending it with the current partner... without guarantee a new partner would arrive.

So it's like you are stuck in a "meh" poly thing you don't esp enjoy that leaves you lonely when your partner is out having fun elsewhere while you are home envying her social skills. Like... not esp fulfulling companionship here. Esp with 10 years of (maybe?) incompatible sex drives.

Or stuck thinking about not even having that level of companionship if you stop doing the poly thing with her.

Is that it?

(I'm having a hard time following your story. Please forgive me if I am getting bits wrong.)

Galagirl
 
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Hi Kelly,

You seem to be saying that the trouble you're having finding people to date is painful, so painful that you wish you could eliminate your libido. I'm sorry to hear that, I feel for you. I can offer you links and advice, but I don't know if any of that will make your search significantly easier. Sorry I couldn't offer more.

Resources you can use in your search:

... and

"As for where to meet poly people, if by some chance you are interested in anything alternative like Renaissance fairs, goth culture, sci-fi conventions, indie music, bdsm, or any small fringe group, you will be more likely to meet people who have at least heard of poly and are accepting of it."
-- SpaceHippieGeek, Polyamorous Percolations
Click to expand...

Even if it's not an "alternative" type group, if there's a club or something in your area that does something you're interested in, you can always join that group and it just gives you a way to get out there and meet people. If you meet someone on a platonic level and get to talking about poly, then they can decide how they feel about it without any "pressure to agree." Then if they do decide poly doesn't bother them too much, and some kind of romantic connection subsequently develops, you'll already have "had the poly conversation" with them.

Just some thoughts.
Regards,
Kevin T.
 
SomeDudeLearning said:
I'm renewing my search for sex drive suppressants. Can't use it often enough to keep it happy, super tired of dealing with it and all its various side effects on mood and outlook on life... Want it gone. Preferably gone completely and not reduced.
And yes, if I were in the appropriate income bracket, I would totally have had surgery by now to make this stop permanently.
Click to expand...
Whoa, that makes me sad. Would like to help you somehow, but not sure if I can.

In your other thread you seem to indicate that your sex life with your wife is intermittent at best, you go long stretches without, which you haven't mentioned here. If so, that, to me, seems to be a much bigger issue than not finding connections outside :( Why isn't it working with your wife? (I decided to respond here, but I can read your other thread if you respond there instead.)

I read what I could find about the book.
It looks pretty good. The common, yet hardly doable, thread between it and others I've read, is the self-love requirement. That one is rough.
Ironic that I find so much of myself pretty awesome... Except for this. This part of me, I'd happily delete without second thoughts. It's really hard going 35 years without ever seriously failing to manage anything important to oneself, and then suddenly have to spend a flipping decade failing to manifest something that's important enough to feel truly bad about not having.
Click to expand...
Well, don't be too harsh on yourself for 'failing'. It's very ... human. I've failed in so many ways.

I get the feeling though that although you see your 'inability' to manifest playful sexual connections as your only problem, that's hardly the case. It seems minor, but it isn't. You're letting this one area of your life impact your overall happiness profoundly. Don't be ashamed to seek therapy.

I don't know if self-love is truly your sticking point, but if it is and you want to practice that, the youtube resources I know are Tara Brach with her RAIN method (I'd recommend that to pretty much anyone), and Teal Swan (she's a bit out there with many of her claims though).

Good luck, Tinwen
 
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Sorry, so many responses that some get away from me and I don't respond quickly.
GalaGirl said:
I'm sorry you struggle.



I wonder what you are doing to develop better social skills? Are you willing to read a book? Take a class? Something else?

To me it would be flipped if the desired outcome is better social skills.

You start walking up to women and introduce yourself as a prospect for some kind of interaction in ORDER TO DEVELOP the desired social skills.
Click to expand...
I've read a lot. Haven't seen any classes on the topic. Not interested in unrelated classes, really burned out on formal school after the last two attempts at online classes.
I've read it's necessary to ignore my perception that talking to random people without any indication it's wanted is uncool. I base that on my own feelings about having other guys come up and try to draw me into interactions, rather than on my desire to have women do the same thing. I don't want to cause the same negative feelings I get from people I've got absolutely zero interest in pushing themselves at me (offering interaction, is how you put it, but guys seem inherently pushy.) I'd love to cause the same positive feelings that I get on the rare occasions that a woman talks to me first, it's just hard to imagine women being as desperate as I get for cross gender communication.
In getting to know the people, you figure out if there are things in common you both might like doing together for fun.
Click to expand...
That takes conversation and at least some level of willingness to move past small talk. Not something I have managed very many times.
What makes connecting with new people hard for you? For me? I have to do it one to one or in small groups. I cannot deal with big groups. I hate small talk, so trying to do it in large numbers wears me out. I can manage it in smaller groups.

Is it something like that or something else that makes connecting hard?
Click to expand...
ABSOLUTELY. Group things just make me uncomfortable and unhappy. And getting one on one interaction time hasn't happened very much because I can't go fish that out of group settings. Small talk is horrible and it's hard to have real conversations unless it's about the paranormal or some other thing disassociated from normal reality.
It almost sounds like maybe you think your chances for dating as a "poly person" are limiting you even more than if you were just dating as a "plain single." But if you stopped participating in the poly thing, that means ending it with the current partner... without guarantee a new partner would arrive.

So it's like you are stuck in a "meh" poly thing you don't esp enjoy that leaves you lonely when your partner is out having fun elsewhere while you are home envying her social skills. Like... not esp fulfulling companionship here. Esp with 10 years of (maybe?) incompatible sex drives.
Click to expand...
yeah, approx ten years since our drive levels diverged.
And I'm aware that ending what I have means having nothing at all. Happened before, it's still an improvement being alone without any physical contact at all, than being stressed about something unpleasant that is the only thing in the world that I've been unable to repair enough to get by.
Or stuck thinking about not even having that level of companionship if you stop doing the poly thing with her.

Is that it?
Click to expand...
my personal mental loops aren't about the potential "joys" of being single. They're about my incompetencies and shortcomings that prevent me from having a happy existence while there's half-poly going on. When it's not happening, I slowly fade back into my normal mode of things being good enough and not stressful. I wasn't happy being single but I wasn't stressed and feeling lousy about myself during that time either.
(I'm having a hard time following your story. Please forgive me if I am getting bits wrong.)

Galagirl
Click to expand...
I think you've got some of it right, and I appreciate you trying to understand and ask for clarification. And offering advice and comparisons to your experience is good reading even if I've seen the advice before and haven't been able to use it due to personal limitations.
 
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kdt26417 said:
Hi Kelly,

You seem to be saying that the trouble you're having finding people to date is painful, so painful that you wish you could eliminate your libido. I'm sorry to hear that, I feel for you. I can offer you links and advice, but I don't know if any of that will make your search significantly easier. Sorry I couldn't offer more.

Resources you can use in your search:

... and



Even if it's not an "alternative" type group, if there's a club or something in your area that does something you're interested in, you can always join that group and it just gives you a way to get out there and meet people. If you meet someone on a platonic level and get to talking about poly, then they can decide how they feel about it without any "pressure to agree." Then if they do decide poly doesn't bother them too much, and some kind of romantic connection subsequently develops, you'll already have "had the poly conversation" with them.

Just some thoughts.
Regards,
Kevin T.
Click to expand...
thanks.
everything you've listed for groups in the quote except bdsm suits me well enough. Being vanilla to the point of being boring unless physical affection is adequate in and of itself kept me from making connections in that crowd.
Being around people with cool interests is nice and all but does not make it any easier to find someone who appears willing to talk at random.
I clearly have to break my personal feelings about random approach being offensive to the approached party to manage the "go talk to randos without concern for feelings or outcome" advice that pervades everything.
 
Sorry I didn't have any new or useful ideas. Maybe I'll think of something later, or maybe someone other than me will think of something. I think it's usually hard for men to find women to date. Extra hard if you are an introvert. My only suggestion there is maybe there's a therapist out there somewhere who could offer you some social skills you could learn.
 
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