How can I work past this?

J

Justanotherguy

New member
Sorry about the format, if it is odd. I'm on a tablet.

Well, I'm not new to the poly community, but I don't really have anyone I know IRL I can ask about this, without just hearing the ubiquitous 'you choose to live a complicated lifestyle, this is what happens.' I have gotten good info reading others posts here in the past, so I figured I could at least give this a shot.

I need some advice, not necessarily about the issue itself, but with my feelings about it. My fiancée and I have been poly from the word go, and because of the rules of conduct we worked out things have been great. The rules relevant here are that new partners have to have approval from the primary beforehand, and that before an increase in intimacy (kissing up to fondling, oral to intercourse, etc). A few months ago, she drops a new partner in my lap, without me having heard of him, or gotten any chance to approve of the guy. I'm uncomfortable with this, and tell her so, but everything about this seems otherwise fine. I find out in the same conversation that she has already told him he can stay on her futon for a week while he is in town for a convention. Again, no discussion or anything, just bam. I tell her I am very uncomfortable with this, but fine, whatever. I trust her. She may not have been considerate or followed the rules exactly, but we are all human. They begin dating, and while I am not entirely happy, he is making her very happy which makes up for it. 2 or 3 months later, we are talking about their relationship, and how I'm still not comfortable, try as I might. She had casually mentioned him staying in her room while he was here last time, and that another friend was on the futon. I tell her that the big reason I am uncomfortable with them is because she keeps doing more and more without talking first, and how that isn't OK. It comes out that when I basically threw my arms in the air and said 'fine, fuck it, do whatever" in relation to him staying on her futon and dating her, she assumed I had given them permission to fuck the guy, and they have been this whole time. I know it was based off of NRE and a miscommunication, but she has been cheating on me for months. I chose to ignore the many obvious signs that more was happening because I trusted her, and I was wrong.

She has been very contrite, and has said she will stay within the approved boundaries, and I choose to believe her. But they are still dating. I want to be OK with this, because he makes her happy, but I am really unhappy about it. I actively want them to stop seeing each other. I know it isn't fair to the relationship they share, but I do. Thinking about them screwing around while I was blithely assuming that she was following the agreed on rules makes my blood run cold. I am getting past the associated trust issues on my own, but what I am having the hardest time with is accepting the guy. I know he is a good guy, and he makes her happy, which is all well and good. But I can't stand that they are dating, and I can't seem to get past that. The other guys she is seeing, I am fine with, but I just want this one gone. Any advice on how to handle it?
 
A good question to ask is if you both practice poly and she has other men already, why do you feel it necessary to have a constant leash on her? Is it really natural and necessary for her to have to get your blessing for every step of the way in every relationship? Relationships that are hers and NOT yours. You need to let go a bit and realize that you are not the owner of her body and the one who decides what happens and when. Instead view it from the standpoint of her boyfriend. Are you willing to have her check with him every time the two of you choose to do something within your relationship? Your behavior is understandable for a first time boyfriend but she has multiple by your admission. Isn't it time to let go?
 
Hi and welcome,

I'm so sorry to hear you are going through such a rough time. For what it's worth, I've been where you are now and I completely empathise.

The first question I have is: how long have you guys been together? Is she any newer to poly than you are? Have you both had a lot of poly dating experience?

The reason I ask is that your situation reminds me very much of the first 1-2 years of my current relationship. Given that, I hope I might be able to raise a few things that you can connect with.

One thing that comes to mind is what your partner is like generally? Is she self-focussed, indulgent, impatient, deceitful, or anything else that might indicate a need to examine the bigger picture? How about you? Are you inflexible, controlling, intrusive? I know I can have been each of these at some points in my life, and it can help to look at these things.

The next thing is whether you can pinpoint what it is that's troubling you about him. Are you feeling threatened? Disrespected? Unable to control the situation? Stung due to the boundary breaking/miscommunication? Or is it something else, perhaps?

My next piece of advice comes from the changes made to my own relationship paradigm after encountering problems like the ones you are facing here. In the beginning, we also had what is really a gateway system (primary must approve). Wehad to get the green light or at least communicate if we were going to take any kind of next step.

After a while, not only did this begin to feel oppressive, it also caused more opportunities to 'fail', and we were really quite controlling towards each other without realising it. People on this forum really helped me to consider altermative options and I can tell you with complete honesty that the less control I allow myself to have, the happier I am.

Another thing we discovered was that lies/omissions/boundary breaking could happen because we were fearful of the other's reaction. More my GF than myself, actually. It can help to discuss whether your partner feels safe to express her needs... or mistakes.

My recommendation is to consider the possibility of a looser structure with more freedom to make your own decisions. Perhaps consider adapting the primary gateway model and removing the necessity for approval.

This doesn't fix the damage already done, but I do think it might help you to avoid a messy future. To repair the damage done, I think some honest discussions should be had, some commitments to honesty made, and some new, more flexible guidelines drawn up.

I'll leave it here for now, but I will check back to see if you have responded.
 
What you say:
My fiancée and I have been poly from the word go, and because of the rules of conduct we worked out things have been great.

What I hear:
"As long as my partner does whatever I say, everything is awesome."

What you say:
The rules relevant here are that new partners have to have approval from the primary beforehand, and that before an increase in intimacy (kissing up to fondling, oral to intercourse, etc)

What I hear:
"My partner is not mature enough to make his/her own decisions. I have to make sure s/he chooses partner that aren't abusive or threatening to me. S/he is also not mature enough to know when to take physical intimacy to the next level. I have to help him/her make good decisions."

What you say:
I actively want them to stop seeing each other. I know it isn't fair to the relationship they share, but I do.

What I hear:
"My ego is more important than my partner's happiness. I also think I can treat people like disposable objects. Their feelings matter less than mine."

What you say:
The other guys she is seeing, I am fine with, but I just want this one gone.

What I hear:
"I'm okay with any relationship, so long as I get to control it."

Look, either your partner is an adult or she isn't. Will you let relationships develop freely? Or will you control every step of the way?
 
Well you guys both agreed to those guidelines whether others on this board agree with that level of intrusion. She chose to break the rules you guys agreed on then I would take that as you don't need approval for your future partners now.
 
Hi Justanotherguy,
Sorry you are struggling with this.

Question: Is it cheating if the cheater doesn't know she's cheating?

It appears to me that you're having trouble forgiving her (and him?) for breaking the rules. Possibly you fear that the rules will be violated again in the future unless having broken them results in a heavy-handed consequence right now -- and the only one severe enough would be, she would have to lose this guy completely. I mean it would have to be something that really hurt, and losing this guy completely would be the only thing that would hurt her enough to be sure that she'd learned her lesson.

If she is the kind of person who would take the rules lightly (unless she was severely punished), then you may want to re-think whether she is a good match for you. Can you accept her even though she doesn't respect the rules (the rules she had claimed to agree to)? because that's a vice she's likely to harbor for the rest of her days. This probably won't be the last time you'll find yourself upset about her disrespecting and/or disregarding the rules.

Not that rules can't be renegotiated (and possibly thence canceled), but she didn't bother renegotiating, she just plowed through and did things her own way. Does that say something about whether she respects you, or does it just mean that she has a weakness for telling you what you want to hear (e.g. "I agree to these rules") even when she has no real intention to follow through on what she says? Some people chicken out when it comes to telling the truth if it might rock the boat. If she's one of those people, can you accept that about her, and work around that flaw?

If you can't (or don't feel you should), then breaking up with her is something you have to consider. If you can (and feel you can live with the choice), then forgiving and forgetting might be the best thing to do.

Of course there is always "Option C:" continuing on as presently constituted, resenting this guy in her life but going along with it because it's what she wants. I think that the way things are presently constituted are putting you in a position where people don't have to keep their word and you'll still go along with whatever they want. This would make me feel like a doormat if I was in your place.

On the other hand, if you choose the forgiveness route and are serious about it, then you have to really want it, in a way that doesn't violate your fundamental principles. She broke her promise to you (when she broke the rules, the rules she knowingly broke). Is letting that go a moral decision?

Treating other people good is of utmost importance in life, but it's equally important to treat yourself good. Will you be disrespecting yourself if you forgive her (likely-to-recur) trespasses? I mean she did (knowingly) break the rules multiple times (your protests notwithstanding).

And if you do (can) forgive her, should you therefore remain with her? Are you and she a good match for each other? It seems that you and she differ on a fundamental point (about keeping promises, really). I mean sure she's contrite now, but that could just be her telling you what you want to hear again, you know?

I'm not sure what to advise you to do, I can only hope that offering up my perspective will help you sort things out. What you're feeling may be more than just simple jealousy, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
I can see, quite clearly, the points you guys have made so far about being controlling, not letting her be here own person, etc. And honestly, I'm not arguing.

The thing is, she set those rules, not me. In the beginning when she and I were discussing "OK, let's do this primary partner thing" she said that this was what she needed to make sure that she was comfortable and not threatened in the relationship. I would personally have preferred something less restrictive. I have abided by these rules, and haven't had a date with anyone else in almost 7 months, and not for lack of interest and opportunity.

My goal here is to try and get past my dislike of this guy, who obviously makes her very happy, and be OK with him just like I am with the others. Because of how everything went down, I find him threatening and upsetting to the stability of the relationship. If she had followed the guidelines she herself set forward, I would have no concerns. But she didn't, and repeatedly put her relationship with him first. She has said she wants to marry me, and have me be first, and I feel the same about her, but this is really making concerned about her commitment to that.
 
Justanotherguy said:
. I have abided by these rules, and haven't had a date with anyone else in almost 7 months, and not for lack of interest and opportunity
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Hmmmm, she makes very restrictive rules, doesn't follow them, you do, and curiously you have no dates, despite interest and opportunity. Ever occur to you that she may have deliberately set this up so that she gets to be poly, but you don't? Trust me, you wouldn't be the first guy to be played like that.
 
Justanotherguy said:
The rules relevant here are that new partners have to have approval from the primary beforehand, and that before an increase in intimacy (kissing up to fondling, oral to intercourse, etc).
Click to expand...

Does it seem like she is on board with this rule? Has she broken these agreements with other boyfriends or is this one somehow unique in this regard?

An explicit discussion about what the two of you expect from one another needs to happen. It sounds like you've had one in the past, but clearly there needs to be a current one.

Justanotherguy said:
I'm uncomfortable with this, and tell her so... I tell her I am very uncomfortable with this, but fine, whatever... we are talking about their relationship, and how I'm still not comfortable, try as I might... I tell her that the big reason I am uncomfortable with them is because she keeps doing more and more without talking first, and how that isn't OK... I basically threw my arms in the air and said 'fine, fuck it, do whatever" in relation to him staying on her futon and dating her, she assumed I had given them permission to fuck the guy, and they have been this whole time.
Click to expand...

So she is either completely oblivious about the fact that she has made these agreements and is consistently breaking them ... or she doesn't give two shits about them.

Frank conversation is what is needed here, and you might need to come to terms with the possibility that she doesn't care for the agreements you've made and this whole arrangement needs to be renegotiated (or abolished).

When I say frank conversation, I am excluding statements like "fine, fuck it" or "fine whatever". These sorts of statements are dismissing your own feelings and giving passive aggressive permission. Her taking you up on the permission should serve as a reminder that maybe you ought to stop doing that. If it's important then treat it like it's important, if it isn't then drop it.
 
I would claim that she is threatening and unstable to the relationship not him. She broke your rules not him. If she wants him more than you and he "steals" her from you there is no rule that will prevent that from happening. So the breaking of these rules have more to do with miscommunication and new relationship energy rather than him being some kind of threat. All you can do is trust in her love for you.
 
PolyinPractice said:
Hmmmm, she makes very restrictive rules, doesn't follow them, you do, and curiously you have no dates, despite interest and opportunity. Ever occur to you that she may have deliberately set this up so that she gets to be poly, but you don't? Trust me, you wouldn't be the first guy to be played like that.
Click to expand...

Could be. Rules for him that don't apply to her
 
It's not this other guy's fault she wanted more freedom. Stop focusing in him - he has nothing to do with you. You need to discuss with her why the rules were broken, when they were what she wanted - and then do away with them. Really. Adults don't need to live like that.
 
Sparklepop, you said "One thing that comes to mind is what your partner is like generally? Is she self-focussed, indulgent, impatient, deceitful, or anything else that might indicate a need to examine the bigger picture?"

To be honest, she isn't really any of those things. She may be self focused at times, but its more in an Anxiety and Depression kind of way, so it is hardly positive for her. The only factor that came into play here is that she sometimes has problems flat out remembering stuff. She has some rowdy ADD, and a poor memory.

"How about you? Are you inflexible, controlling, intrusive?"

I will readily admit, I am stubborn as a mule, but I try not to be inflexible. I may not always succeed, but I try. I am definitely assertive, which if I don't watch myself can easily become domineering. But I saw how that kind of behavior affected my parents relationship and I do my best to avoid that. As far as intrusive goes, well, I am a firm believer that we all need our own space and time to do what we wanna do, but I will admit I tend to require a lot of attention. Generally, my needs are split up between multiple partners, but since she hasn't been secure enough in the relationship to be comfortable with me seeing any of the people I have been interested in that hasn't been happening, so my needs aren't being met. I am afraid that despite my best efforts, I am being a bit needy and intrusive.

"To repair the damage done, I think some honest discussions should be had, some commitments to honesty made, and some new, more flexible guidelines drawn up."

I agree, and we have done that, and things between her and I are patching up. We haven't had any new guideline talks yet, because quite frankly I have been too hurt, angry, and unhappy for anything constructive to be had yet.



KDT26417, I appreciate your viewpoint on this. Several aspects of that are things I had thought about, but not all, and to be honest the same thing phrased slightly differently can open up whole new vistas of interpretation and thought.

Polyinpractice, you said "Ever occur to you that she may have deliberately set this up so that she gets to be poly, but you don't?"

I can't lie, that has definitely occurred to me, especially at times of peak frustration. But I don't think she has, unless she is really really good at faking anxiety and insecurity. Its the sort of concept that, potentially true or not, I try and keep out of my general thought patterns. That sort of duplicity can really piss me off, and I have no desire to lose control and flip my shit. So I maintain an awareness of it, to avoid getting screwed over, but that is all the hold I let it get in my brain.

Marcus, you asked "Does it seem like she is on board with this rule? Has she broken these agreements with other boyfriends or is this one somehow unique in this regard?"

This one is unique. She has not done this before. The next section about it being pass ag approval and dismissive of my feelings is spot on, and while she generally reads that stuff well and is sensitive to my feelings (as I am to her when tables are turned) this time she was too enthused about the new relationship to actually try and put it all together. She is usually very context aware, and I am usually very clear about my feelings and don't play the "fuck it, whatever" game. This time though, the exact details of the initial situation had me very distraught and I just couldn't make a coherent response. I do not want to get into those on a public forum, but it was pretty nuts. In almost every respect for this new relationship she has been very inconsiderate of my side of things, which she and I have since discussed.

Graviton, you said "All you can do is trust in her love for you."

That is true. And I am trying. But its proving harder than I thought. It was very difficult for me to open up and trust her in the first place, and this did more damage than I think she realizes.
 
I wasn't describing her actions as passive aggressive, I was describing yours. "Fine fuck it" and "Fine, whatever" are quotes from you, and that is saying one thing but meaning the exact opposite. I get that it's tough to be clear in the heat of the moment, but leaving that as your final word and expecting it's going to turn out in your best interests is destined for the kind of failure you experienced.

Justanotherguy said:
In almost every respect for this new relationship she has been very inconsiderate of my side of things, which she and I have since discussed.
Click to expand...

And? What changes are you going to make to your view of her actions or to your expectations?

Discussing is fine, but it really should be the vehicle which gets us to a satisfactory (or at least functional) resolution. What was the resolution of this issue that came from your discussion?
 
Justanotherguy said:
The only factor that came into play here is that she sometimes has problems flat out remembering stuff. She has some rowdy ADD, and a poor memory.
Click to expand...

So she managed to remember these rules with all of her other relationships but mysteriously forgot them during this one. Is that really the story you are comfortable sticking with?

I get that you're trying to be an adult about all of this, but it really looks like you're assuming a doormat posture in this association.
 
nycindie said:
You need to discuss with her why the rules were broken, when they were what she wanted - and then do away with them. Really. Adults don't need to live like that.
Click to expand...

They were broken because of a difference between what I said and what she wanted to hear, and that what I said could be taken as meaning two different things depending on tone and context.

Why she wants them? Simply put, trust issues. She does not trust me not to do things that will upset the stability of our relationship, or that when push comes to shove I will put her first. So she wanted to codify what was ok and what wasn't, and because I have some trust issues myself I thought it sounded reasonable. Not optimal, but reasonable.
 
Marcus, I get that you were describing my actions and words there. I am not gonna debate the point, because I totally was when I think about it.

As far a changes go, we have tweaked the guidelines a bit more to make them clearer. If we have to have these things, then vagueness is a problem. There was a lack of clarity to what was established.
 
Marcus said:
I get that you're trying to be an adult about all of this, but it really looks like you're assuming a doormat posture in this association.
Click to expand...

Hmm. I may be. I have had a history of being an asshole (or at least so I have been told), so I try and compensate, but I may be going too far.
 
Justanotherguy said:
She does not trust me not to do things that will upset the stability of our relationship, or that when push comes to shove I will put her first.
Click to expand...

That is abundantly clear. My view has always been no trust, no relationship. You can have a shell relationship/marriage, but that's it.

My two cents, anyway.
 
When some people transition from mono to poly, it seems to make sense that your pre existing partners will have some sort of power over your other relationships. This is often why secondaries put up with so much shit at first until they realise it doesn't have to be that way.

Perhaps she had realised that the rules are unnecessary... If you can trust your partner. She feels she is trustworthy but you aren't, the rules are still necessary. That's me being objective to her.

My cynical side agrees that this is a calculated method of ensuring she's poly whilst you're not.
 
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