See. She wants him to permit non monogamy in their marriage. That is what she has been pushing for.
How do I even start to explain??
- Thread starter Journeyofawakening
- Start date
See. She wants him to permit non monogamy in their marriage. That is what she has been pushing for.
Journeyofawakening
Member
Max, you really seem to have a problem with me... Is it purely because from what you have read in a brief glimpse of my life, you believe me to not be remorseful or caring about what is happening to my husband from my actions? Or is there something else I've done to terribly offend you?
I'm not pushing him to accept polyamory any more than he is pushing me to return to a monogamous mindset.
I'm not pushing him to accept polyamory any more than he is pushing me to return to a monogamous mindset.
graviton
New member
It is odd that Max is painting you so negatively when everyone else understands you. I believe you've been commendable considering how tough the situation is. I see nothing pushy or callous about your actions. You are forming a decisions to
1. stay and be monogamous
2. leave and be poly
3. attempt to help your husband understand poly in hopes that you can stay and discuss further what poly means to the two of you
Right now poly only has one meaning to him...you blowing up the family. You rightfully are trying t
o show him that it doesn't have to be that way. The alternative course that you could have taken is simply deserting your husband for the other guy with no explanation, I'm sure Max would also find that callous and unloving.
BTW look up Bait and Switch in any dictionary, it is ALWAYS described as a ploy, sales tactic, or INTENTION to deceive. THIS is not such a situation.
http://i.word.com/idictionary/bait and switch
1. stay and be monogamous
2. leave and be poly
3. attempt to help your husband understand poly in hopes that you can stay and discuss further what poly means to the two of you
Right now poly only has one meaning to him...you blowing up the family. You rightfully are trying t
o show him that it doesn't have to be that way. The alternative course that you could have taken is simply deserting your husband for the other guy with no explanation, I'm sure Max would also find that callous and unloving.
BTW look up Bait and Switch in any dictionary, it is ALWAYS described as a ploy, sales tactic, or INTENTION to deceive. THIS is not such a situation.
http://i.word.com/idictionary/bait and switch
InfinitePossibility
New member
You had a really tough decision and time ahead, Journey. I'm hoping that you are able to convince your husband to work with you to find ways to make the changes you've experienced as easy on your children as possible.
I'd wonder if what you say pushes buttons for MightyMax? You are writing about going through a change that he/she would find too traumatic to ever properly get over.
Plus - you and lots of others here have spoken negatively about religion which again seems to be a trigger for MightyMax.
The reality is that people change. I live a life now that is unlike anything I would have considered when I was the age you were at the point you were getting married. I have no idea how much or in what way my life may change in the future.
You have done nothing wrong. Your husband has done nothing wrong. All that you can do now is work to make this as easy on your kids as you can do.
I'd wonder if what you say pushes buttons for MightyMax? You are writing about going through a change that he/she would find too traumatic to ever properly get over.
Plus - you and lots of others here have spoken negatively about religion which again seems to be a trigger for MightyMax.
The reality is that people change. I live a life now that is unlike anything I would have considered when I was the age you were at the point you were getting married. I have no idea how much or in what way my life may change in the future.
You have done nothing wrong. Your husband has done nothing wrong. All that you can do now is work to make this as easy on your kids as you can do.
As I've repeatedly said, what he is doing isn't right either. Just because he's doing it to you, it doesn't make it okay for you to do the same unreasonable thing to him. I quoted that post because KC43 suggested that you were not seeking to actually act on your desires. You just wanted your husband to know how you feel about loving more than one person. You have already said that is not the case and that you want him to permit you to explore these desires. This isn't just a theoretical thing for you. You want to be able to be poly.
I initially described this as "effectively" a bait and switch because despite the lack of intention, the husband has been promised a life under one set of conditions, and now is being told that his wife wants to change that foundation for something else. Regardless of whether JOA intended to do it, the situation is the same.
Yes. I can greatly empathize with the husband in this situation. The few incidences in casual relationships with cowboys/cowgirls has unnerved me plus, I know of other people who have been in more serious and entangled relationships and a partner wants to alter their relationship style. It's not pretty.
As for religion, I don't have a particular trigger around it but I am sensitive to bashing of any sort. As Ive become affiliated with more "alternative" lifestyles, I realized that people in minority groups can be just as oppressive and offensive as those in more privileged groups. I really do detest it.
Journeyofawakening
Member
We're both stubborn strong-minded people. It worked well when we believed and wanted the same things. Now it doesn't. We're just both pushing to not lose the love we have I guess. It's a painful situation that will have to end one way or the other.
Journey, it's not just you. Max has hounded me for over a year, making snide remarks about a hard decision I had to make to leave my last serious boyfriend. He made a comment the other day here, bashing me for calling my ex a sociopath. I broke up with that dude in July 2014 and Max is still haranguing me for .... how I did it? The conclusions I came to about my ex's mental state? It does seem Max has a very hard time letting go of his, and even others', pain and confusion and choices.
It's extremely annoying and I have reported him to admin more than once.
I agree, a choice you made to marry at age 23 does not require you to a life of feeling stifled and inauthentic. Shit, I got married at 22, and I'd been having sex since age 16. I did stick it out for 30 years, but I regret that now! Both mine and my ex husband's parents had forever marriages, so I guess we felt determined to stick it out no matter how wrong we became for each other. He was more upset than I was at the point of divorce, but he admitted he'd been treating me badly, so I think he came to some understanding of our incompatibility.
At divorce court, all we were advised to say by our lawyers was, "We no longer see eye to eye." Boom. Done. People grow apart. We live longer lives now, sometimes marriages don't last. We try to make it work. You are trying. You love your husband. But the whole evangelical Christian thing is not a good fit for you. So, you're not being selfish. You are not being selfless either. As Gala Girls says, you're being "self-ful." Putting on your own oxygen mask first is not a crime, nor selfish.
And so you're only 31? Good for you, girl. Live your life. Don't live in a gilded cage like I did for too long. I have been having the best years of my life since I left my husband. I have dated so many interesting men, had great sex, learned so much, AND I have a wonderful, loving, inspiring girlfriend-partner who supports my growth and exploration 100%! As I do her. I am so happy and proud I chose to be self-full.
It's extremely annoying and I have reported him to admin more than once.
I agree, a choice you made to marry at age 23 does not require you to a life of feeling stifled and inauthentic. Shit, I got married at 22, and I'd been having sex since age 16. I did stick it out for 30 years, but I regret that now! Both mine and my ex husband's parents had forever marriages, so I guess we felt determined to stick it out no matter how wrong we became for each other. He was more upset than I was at the point of divorce, but he admitted he'd been treating me badly, so I think he came to some understanding of our incompatibility.
At divorce court, all we were advised to say by our lawyers was, "We no longer see eye to eye." Boom. Done. People grow apart. We live longer lives now, sometimes marriages don't last. We try to make it work. You are trying. You love your husband. But the whole evangelical Christian thing is not a good fit for you. So, you're not being selfish. You are not being selfless either. As Gala Girls says, you're being "self-ful." Putting on your own oxygen mask first is not a crime, nor selfish.
And so you're only 31? Good for you, girl. Live your life. Don't live in a gilded cage like I did for too long. I have been having the best years of my life since I left my husband. I have dated so many interesting men, had great sex, learned so much, AND I have a wonderful, loving, inspiring girlfriend-partner who supports my growth and exploration 100%! As I do her. I am so happy and proud I chose to be self-full.
I'm glad that you can see that you are both displaying similar behaviours due to you both wanting to stay in your marriage and because you will both be devastated if it has to end. Neither of you are the bad guy.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bait and switch
As graviton said, "bait and switch" is ALWAYS intentional. This isn't bait and switch, "effectively" or otherwise, because when Journey and her husband married, she had no INTENTION of not being monogamous. Eight years ago, she didn't have a clue that polyamory was even a thing, let alone that she was interested in it.
This is a CHANGE in someone's recognition and understanding of themselves. Not an INTENTION to deceive someone else or to say "Hey, remember how I promised you X, guess what, I lied."
That aside, I see what you've quoted, and I had missed that post. Thank you for clarifying. However, even wanting her husband to accept her living a poly life doesn't automatically translate to wanting to fuck every man she sees--or even to wanting to fuck ONE man. Because fucking and love are not mutually inclusive. Sex might or might not be part of what Journey envisions. In the bit you quoted, she also said she doesn't want sex with anyone else while she and her husband are struggling. Which brings it back to her *primarily*--at least at this time--wanting his understanding and acceptance of her being polyamorous, not necessarily of her getting laid by other guys.
As graviton said, "bait and switch" is ALWAYS intentional. This isn't bait and switch, "effectively" or otherwise, because when Journey and her husband married, she had no INTENTION of not being monogamous. Eight years ago, she didn't have a clue that polyamory was even a thing, let alone that she was interested in it.
This is a CHANGE in someone's recognition and understanding of themselves. Not an INTENTION to deceive someone else or to say "Hey, remember how I promised you X, guess what, I lied."
That aside, I see what you've quoted, and I had missed that post. Thank you for clarifying. However, even wanting her husband to accept her living a poly life doesn't automatically translate to wanting to fuck every man she sees--or even to wanting to fuck ONE man. Because fucking and love are not mutually inclusive. Sex might or might not be part of what Journey envisions. In the bit you quoted, she also said she doesn't want sex with anyone else while she and her husband are struggling. Which brings it back to her *primarily*--at least at this time--wanting his understanding and acceptance of her being polyamorous, not necessarily of her getting laid by other guys.
As matters now stand, I feel there are three possible outcomes:
I think that JOA is starting to consider a breakup. However, her husband isn't ready to consider that yet. Hence, he is trying to push her into the outcome that "favors" him. He is taking the tradition-oriented route which frowns on divorcing for any reason. Whether he will eventually make peace with the idea of a breakup remains to be seen.
I sympathize with both spouses, but I also don't approve of the husband's tactics. And I believe that JOA views the situation with appropriate seriousness. She is not trying to cheat her husband. She is trying to find the best solution to a problem that seemingly has no good solutions. I don't envy her.
- JOA gives up on poly and lives like her husband wants her to live. Making JOA unhappy and her husband happy.
- JOA's husband dilutes his values to give JOA his blessing for her to be poly. Making her happy and him unhappy.
- JOA and her husband break up. Making both of them unhappy for an unknown amount of time, but happy in the end.
I think that JOA is starting to consider a breakup. However, her husband isn't ready to consider that yet. Hence, he is trying to push her into the outcome that "favors" him. He is taking the tradition-oriented route which frowns on divorcing for any reason. Whether he will eventually make peace with the idea of a breakup remains to be seen.
I sympathize with both spouses, but I also don't approve of the husband's tactics. And I believe that JOA views the situation with appropriate seriousness. She is not trying to cheat her husband. She is trying to find the best solution to a problem that seemingly has no good solutions. I don't envy her.
Xftmfz
New member
I don't understand why Judgmental-max is so intent on placing blame on JOA. What need of yours does your predisposition serve? You aren't helping anyone. I think your opinion on contracted relationships is a valid one... It's just... No one cares.
I see a lot of good responses, many positive, but I feel a need to say all this stuff about what's "right" and what's "wrong" is irrelevant. There is only what works for you. Right and wrong are all interpretive and relative to the interpreter.
Only thing I think JOA needs to realize is that your husband isn't telling you no because of his religion. He's saying that because it's hard to argue against. He's not saying no because he believes in monogamy like it's the perfect relationship type. He's relying on the contract to keep you his. Essentially monogamy meets some need of his.
Don't be discouraged because he said "never". Hell, when you were 23 you said "forever" and now look where you are. There's nothing that says you can't have your cake and eat it too, it's just a lot of work. He'll have to feel his needs are met by whatever you propose. You gotta take that slow. It doesn't come easy.
I'm in the same boat... Lucky for me, my wife is cool with occasional swinging... Just 100% on her terms. Which I want more autonomy with my external relationships. We've been in talks for over a year now... And last time we "had some friends over"... We played separate rooms. Progress is progress. If he's worth it to you, you work on it. He needs to see you for you. You start small and take baby steps. As time goes on, it'll get better, or it won't. Either way... The more stuff that happens, the easier the decision will be for you.
I see a lot of good responses, many positive, but I feel a need to say all this stuff about what's "right" and what's "wrong" is irrelevant. There is only what works for you. Right and wrong are all interpretive and relative to the interpreter.
Only thing I think JOA needs to realize is that your husband isn't telling you no because of his religion. He's saying that because it's hard to argue against. He's not saying no because he believes in monogamy like it's the perfect relationship type. He's relying on the contract to keep you his. Essentially monogamy meets some need of his.
Don't be discouraged because he said "never". Hell, when you were 23 you said "forever" and now look where you are. There's nothing that says you can't have your cake and eat it too, it's just a lot of work. He'll have to feel his needs are met by whatever you propose. You gotta take that slow. It doesn't come easy.
I'm in the same boat... Lucky for me, my wife is cool with occasional swinging... Just 100% on her terms. Which I want more autonomy with my external relationships. We've been in talks for over a year now... And last time we "had some friends over"... We played separate rooms. Progress is progress. If he's worth it to you, you work on it. He needs to see you for you. You start small and take baby steps. As time goes on, it'll get better, or it won't. Either way... The more stuff that happens, the easier the decision will be for you.
It is difficult
Journey,
The situation you are in is extremely stressful, difficult, and with long-lasting consequences, regardless of what path you choose to follow. After reading all the pages of this topic, and seeing the heated discussion, I have a few observations which you might find useful.
1. When a poster offers a personal story in a public forum, he or she purposefully avails herself to sympathy, advice, criticism, and even ridicule. While it is "nice" for people on message boards to be polite, this is not always the case and it is your job to sift through the information given to you, pick the small nuggets and make the best use of it. I have seen posters (especially on other boards) receiving much harsher treatment than the one here. I commend the community here for remaining, by and large, on the side of the civil. Also, it is better to hear a harsh comment for the first time on a (somewhat) anonymous board so you have time to think it over and come up with an answer, than having to face it unprepared with people who are important to you in real life.
2. People who share any form of alternative lifestyles (poly, swinging, BDSM, kink, etc.) come from all walks of life. Thus, you meet cross section of the general population with all of its good and bad. People will respond to your input in a way that is consistent with their own experiences and capabilities. Some will be helpful, others will not, some have issues, yet others have profound issues (that is my observation from people I have met in real life in the alternative lifestyles, not anyone on this board). Keep in mind that people in the alternative lifestyles are very often simply “different minded” and not “open minded” despite what they say. So, take anything with a grain of salt. The ultimate decision is yours.
Who are parties to consider in this situation?
Is it 1) you; 2) you and your husband; 3) you, your husband, and the community you live in; 4) you and your husband in the "potential field" of the community you live in; or something else? The answer to this preliminary question will help you find the remaining answers.
3. The 60 years. There is a book called “Men are from Mars, women from Venus.” Without going into details, people use different expression means to convey a message. The “60 years” can be simply translated as “something that feels to be an unreasonably long time” especially when said in a moment of distress.
It is Normal, for Normal people, to act Abnormally in Abnormal situations. For someone who is genuinely monogamous and who doesn't even have a remote experience with poly, being introduced to the possibility of having to change his life on day to day bases toward poly could be an abnormal situation. Thus, abnormal reactions are to be expected.
Let's consider the effect of the community in which you live. There are places, where the man, the husband, is deemed ultimately responsible for the well-being of his family, no matter the circumstances. In such a community, your husband will fear that he will be looked, for the rest of his life, as the one who failed his wife so miserably, that not only she left, but also she lost her faith in marriage and monogamy. In his fears, his community will see him as a leper, always being “the man whose wife . . . “
4. Bait and switch. It was sad to see pages of arguments over this because your situation is incredibly serious and this argument was like time spend on rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Your realization what you want to pursue polyamory introduces a profound change in your family. Unless both parties arrive to the same page, the experience is likely to be very traumatic. It matters not who said what a number of years ago. The thing that matters is that you are faced with a fundamental change that will alter the day to day living to one or both of you. To make it more clear, there are similar, non-sexual /amorous, changes that could be traumatic.
Some examples: 1) one spouse decides to convert to a new religion and takes is very seriously; 2) one spouse gets burned out on the corporate job and decides to move to a humanitarian mission in a “third world country”; 3) the son in a Reform Jewish family decides to become Orthodox, puts the black hat and tells his parents that he can't eat at their home anymore, etc. etc. I hope this gives you the idea in common - the rest of the family has the “option” to “accept” or bust. Regardless of their decision, their day-to-day life is not going to be the same because they will either lose a loved one or will have to change the way they live.
The very same thing may occur in a swinging couple when one spouse decides to become “born again” and tells their "sinner" half “honey, we have to talk . . .”
5. There is the possibility that your husband has understood what poly is, disagrees with it, but can't express himself in a way you can understand it. Some people claim that as long as you can make somebody see your point, he or she will accept it. This wrong and very misleading, if not worse. Lifestyles are a matter of personal choice -- a taste. One cannot argue a taste. You either both share it it not. A small number of couples can arrive at the mono-poly arrangement but this is by far not the norm and often the circumstances won't allow it even with the best of intentions.
6. No matter what you do, it is a good idea to think it carefully, with as little motion as possible. Try to do a “though experiment” and imagine the likely possible outcomes. What will happen if you leave? Imagine that you are already divorced. How you will approach your first year of being alone and able to explore. How do you see yourself in 10 years? Happily married to a poly partner with a few other loves and friends? Or alone and down on her luck, asking yourself “why did I do this to me?” Live is full of treachery and we often don't hear about the losers because their don't stick around to tell their stories.
7. I will suggest, at least in your thought experiment, to be extremely selfish and think hard of what is the best for you in the long run: 10, 20, 30 years from now. There are components: physical, material, emotional, social, spiritual (not necessarily religion based, but being in peace with yourself) and all take part in in your equation of happiness. The tricky part is that the equation of happiness is a time-dependent function and changes with time, as you have discovered on your own very recently. What can you do so that you are happy many years down the road?
Best of luck.
Journey,
The situation you are in is extremely stressful, difficult, and with long-lasting consequences, regardless of what path you choose to follow. After reading all the pages of this topic, and seeing the heated discussion, I have a few observations which you might find useful.
1. When a poster offers a personal story in a public forum, he or she purposefully avails herself to sympathy, advice, criticism, and even ridicule. While it is "nice" for people on message boards to be polite, this is not always the case and it is your job to sift through the information given to you, pick the small nuggets and make the best use of it. I have seen posters (especially on other boards) receiving much harsher treatment than the one here. I commend the community here for remaining, by and large, on the side of the civil. Also, it is better to hear a harsh comment for the first time on a (somewhat) anonymous board so you have time to think it over and come up with an answer, than having to face it unprepared with people who are important to you in real life.
2. People who share any form of alternative lifestyles (poly, swinging, BDSM, kink, etc.) come from all walks of life. Thus, you meet cross section of the general population with all of its good and bad. People will respond to your input in a way that is consistent with their own experiences and capabilities. Some will be helpful, others will not, some have issues, yet others have profound issues (that is my observation from people I have met in real life in the alternative lifestyles, not anyone on this board). Keep in mind that people in the alternative lifestyles are very often simply “different minded” and not “open minded” despite what they say. So, take anything with a grain of salt. The ultimate decision is yours.
Who are parties to consider in this situation?
Is it 1) you; 2) you and your husband; 3) you, your husband, and the community you live in; 4) you and your husband in the "potential field" of the community you live in; or something else? The answer to this preliminary question will help you find the remaining answers.
3. The 60 years. There is a book called “Men are from Mars, women from Venus.” Without going into details, people use different expression means to convey a message. The “60 years” can be simply translated as “something that feels to be an unreasonably long time” especially when said in a moment of distress.
It is Normal, for Normal people, to act Abnormally in Abnormal situations. For someone who is genuinely monogamous and who doesn't even have a remote experience with poly, being introduced to the possibility of having to change his life on day to day bases toward poly could be an abnormal situation. Thus, abnormal reactions are to be expected.
Let's consider the effect of the community in which you live. There are places, where the man, the husband, is deemed ultimately responsible for the well-being of his family, no matter the circumstances. In such a community, your husband will fear that he will be looked, for the rest of his life, as the one who failed his wife so miserably, that not only she left, but also she lost her faith in marriage and monogamy. In his fears, his community will see him as a leper, always being “the man whose wife . . . “
4. Bait and switch. It was sad to see pages of arguments over this because your situation is incredibly serious and this argument was like time spend on rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Your realization what you want to pursue polyamory introduces a profound change in your family. Unless both parties arrive to the same page, the experience is likely to be very traumatic. It matters not who said what a number of years ago. The thing that matters is that you are faced with a fundamental change that will alter the day to day living to one or both of you. To make it more clear, there are similar, non-sexual /amorous, changes that could be traumatic.
Some examples: 1) one spouse decides to convert to a new religion and takes is very seriously; 2) one spouse gets burned out on the corporate job and decides to move to a humanitarian mission in a “third world country”; 3) the son in a Reform Jewish family decides to become Orthodox, puts the black hat and tells his parents that he can't eat at their home anymore, etc. etc. I hope this gives you the idea in common - the rest of the family has the “option” to “accept” or bust. Regardless of their decision, their day-to-day life is not going to be the same because they will either lose a loved one or will have to change the way they live.
The very same thing may occur in a swinging couple when one spouse decides to become “born again” and tells their "sinner" half “honey, we have to talk . . .”
5. There is the possibility that your husband has understood what poly is, disagrees with it, but can't express himself in a way you can understand it. Some people claim that as long as you can make somebody see your point, he or she will accept it. This wrong and very misleading, if not worse. Lifestyles are a matter of personal choice -- a taste. One cannot argue a taste. You either both share it it not. A small number of couples can arrive at the mono-poly arrangement but this is by far not the norm and often the circumstances won't allow it even with the best of intentions.
6. No matter what you do, it is a good idea to think it carefully, with as little motion as possible. Try to do a “though experiment” and imagine the likely possible outcomes. What will happen if you leave? Imagine that you are already divorced. How you will approach your first year of being alone and able to explore. How do you see yourself in 10 years? Happily married to a poly partner with a few other loves and friends? Or alone and down on her luck, asking yourself “why did I do this to me?” Live is full of treachery and we often don't hear about the losers because their don't stick around to tell their stories.
7. I will suggest, at least in your thought experiment, to be extremely selfish and think hard of what is the best for you in the long run: 10, 20, 30 years from now. There are components: physical, material, emotional, social, spiritual (not necessarily religion based, but being in peace with yourself) and all take part in in your equation of happiness. The tricky part is that the equation of happiness is a time-dependent function and changes with time, as you have discovered on your own very recently. What can you do so that you are happy many years down the road?
Best of luck.
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WhatHappened
Active member
...speaking of judgmentalism....
Only thing I think JOA needs to realize is that your husband isn't telling you no because of ..... He's saying that because...... He's not saying no because ...... He's relying on the contract to..... Essentially monogamy meets some need of his. [/QUOTE]
You've met her husband? He's told you that he really means X when he tells her Y? Wow, why in the world is he telling you the truth and telling JOA a lie? Or are you claiming to actually know this man better than he knows himself? Or claiming that without ever having met him, you are somehow an expert on what he really thinks and feels and believes?
Truly amazing, either way. I'm impressed.
Her husband likely married her because they were on the same wavelength about religion and lifestyle, ie he was "baited" with a compatible partner. Now, 8 years and some kids later, said person wants to "switch" to a completely different relationship model. It really doesn't matter if she planned it or not. From his side, this is what has happened. He was baited with the promise of one life and now is being asked to switch it to another.
I think you're reaching here. JOA wants to be poly, which involves loving and sexual relationships with others. Just like the majority of us on here have. There is nothing wrong with wanting that so stop trying to dilute her desires into something "mono-acceptable". She wants to be poly, her husband doesn't. Both should stop trying to persuade the other. It's that simple, really.
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Journeyofawakening
Member
Ooooorrr we have all been mis-sold (is that not a word??) on the idea that once you marry someone, they are to never change and they are to be that person forever. Regardless of what life throws at them. We sign a contract without really knowing our future selves or knowing the options that we have regarding relationship. We just follow a model. Well, many people do.
And the reason why I wouldn't.
