How do I heal a psychological disconnect between sex and emotional bonding?

[GroundedSpirit]

Essentially, he has prostituted you out so that he can get off in women he thinks are sexy...

RP, unfortunately, the whole post I clipped this from is pretty much dead on in its ugliness and bluntness. The potential for this in the whole BDSM thing has always been the reason I in particular, and my wife to a somewhat lesser degree (she enjoys some limited D/s play), have never been attracted to it. The risks just seemed too great. I'm sure those of you all that have been heavily involved in it can vouch that stories like (or similar) to this are more common than we'd want. BDSM involvement takes a special type of person and a lot of education. People can and do die from this lifestyle.

That all being said, I think you recover from this. I truly do. I hope you guys can pull together and take something as starkly ugly as this and use it as fuel for forging a stronger, albeit different, relationship. My thoughts are with you.

 

[redpepper]

Add to this the most common feminine perspective that sex should only (or primarily) occur in a closely bonded environment and you have the foundations of the conflict.

I would like to suggest that it isn't a feminine perspective per se, but A perspective. My men are very much of the opinion that there must be a bond before they have sex with anyone. I also believe that women in general seem to need a bond first. I would suggest that it is they that are being entered most of the time. It's something about entering another's body and being entered. I don't want to go off on a tangent so I will leave it there.

I don't know how much involvement you have in the BDSM community, but I know the one where I live has support groups and mentors. I think that could be valuable to both of you.

If your other partners love you, they will be willing to be patient while you work on things with your husband.

Perhaps you could try physical contact for the sake of physical contact--cuddling but knowing that there will be no sex afterward. Schedule time for intimacy--not sex, but talking just to each other, cuddling, paying attention to each other with no distractions. It doesn't seem romantic to schedule it, but it helps build the habit and frankly, scheduling it is better than not having it. Also, scheduling it helps prevent blame. If it's on the schedule, then no one can say, "You're always on the computer" or "You're never home in time" or even "I just couldn't fit it in". My marriage was in serious trouble last summer, and we (with the help of our fabulous girlfriend) said 11 o'clock was cuddle time, no excuses, TV off, no computer. Drop everything and just do it. It sounded stupid, but it worked.

Try reading The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman.

All very good points, Lemondrop. I will keep them in mind.

I have also read and used the Love Languages book. I found it very easy to read. It got to the point quickly. All three of us have learned about each other greatly from that book and have noticed how our requirements for being loved change and flow over time. It's important to note those changes and go with them.

How she views it, going forward, will be important.

I agree with you, GS. I think it's important to feel the trauma, and then work towards healing without getting too caught up in becoming a lifelong victim of what happened. There are huge lessons to be learned from this and they won't be learned if midnight decides to stay a victim in it. The point is to move forward and become knowledgable about yourself and become something more... stronger, more confident and sure of yourself.

He's devastated and fears it means the end of our marriage. He recognizes now what he did, what it did to me, and what he/we have lost in our marriage because of it. The bond he and I had during sex was sacred to him, yet he didn't recognize that it was no longer there for me.

I am glad to hear that he has some feelings towards the situation that respects you. It sounds like he has a lot of soul searching to do and has his own path to take in knowing himself better, and perhaps healing from his own issues that caused him to act the way he did.

Good for him for taking the first step and having compassion for you. Now let's see what he does with that information. If he lets it slide and says he has changed, having not done any work, I would be wary, as that is the path abusers take. There is a whole excuse of "I was in the moment and it won't happen again"... it can and often does happen over and over again, putting the woman in a cycle of taking the abuse and becoming more deeply enmeshed in the cycle. It can spiral, becoming worse and worse over time.

Perhaps looking into the cycle of abuse will be helpful. I think that this is possibly on the verge of becoming an abusive cycle. Time will tell. If you are finding yourself reacting to what I have just said with, "She doesn't know what she is talking about" then I would suggest you are already in the cycle. Just look into it. Prove me wrong. I love to be proved wrong.

My mum started and ran a center for battered women when I was a child. I was raised being involved with the women and children in that house and am very familiar with the cycle of abuse as a result. I also studied the cycle at university and was involved for a time after university in the same house my mum started. I am not talking out of my ass. Please go ahead and prove me wrong. I will be the first to say you are right and I am wrong, if that is the case.

 

[LovingRadiance]

You mean you will be the first to say I am wrong and you are right, IN THAT CASE.

 

[redpepper]

You mean you will be the first to say I am wrong and you are right, IN THAT CASE.

Oops, yes. Changing that.

 

[midnightsun]

Still here...

I'm processing everyone's posts. So is my husband. Please don't think we're ignorning the thread, will respond soon!

 

[LovingRadiance]

I said I'd work on what I think would be best. And so I have. I'm not sure where the best place to start is, so bear with me on how long this is. I fear I may be back with more later, as well.

I'm confident that in my response I am going much further out on the limb then RP did (or could). So please keep in mind that you both asked for any and all input, and said you would value it as well, especially mine.

I don't know how to break down the multi-quotes and keep the name of who wrote it in there, so I will add the names.

(midnight sun) Background: I have *always* been an extremely sensitive, emotionally intuitive person.

I beg to differ. I think you are a very sensitive person, however you aren't really an emotionally intuitive person, which would mean that you seem to know a person's true feelings without being told; you tend to be too much of an optimist to truly intuit a person's emotions, intentions or thoughts. You often miss the clues that go "against the grain" of your natural optimistic outlook. This has a horrible tendency to bite you in the ass on many occasions. Too many that I've personally witnessed, and plenty that were, in fact, with me.

(ms)I have always reserved sexual interaction for individuals for whom I feel a deep attraction and chemistry, and with whom I have developed a preliminary bond.

What does "sexual interaction" mean to you?
What do "deep attraction" and "chemistry" mean to you?
What does "preliminary bond" mean to you?

I ask, because it's become evident to me recently, that whatever your understanding of these words is, it's not the same as mine. So I can't speak to this paragraph without asking for clarification.

(ms)I also prefer to have developed (or at least foresee developing) a meaningful bond with them.

This strikes me as a huge question mark. I can't define exactly why, but it does. I wonder what it is you mean by "developed or foresee developing" because that seems like it would be a confusing thing for your husband (or any potential partners) to keep straight and understand. At what point can you or they foresee a meaningful bond developing, and therefore know that it's ok to proceed with some sort of sexual interaction?

Is there some limit of sexual interaction here? Like "Ok, I feel like we get along well, so kissing is ok, but not intercourse," or "I feel like we understand each other now, so it's ok for cunnilingus, but not fellatio," or what?

This is so vague that it would be damn near to impossible for your husband, a bf, gf, Dom or whatever to be able to make any move within this boundary. It is simply not clear cut enough.

(ms)About 4 years ago we began discussing the idea of involving other people in our sex life. I advised him then that I am "not capable" of having sex with someone that I don't feel that attraction, chemistry and preliminary emotional bond with. I placed that as a requirement on me participating in any sexual encounters with others, male or female.

This is clear cut. No sexual encounters for you with anyone else unless you identify that you are attracted (whatever that means to you), have chemistry (whatever that means to you) and a preliminary emotional bond (whatever that means to you). But I wonder, were there "compromises" in some choices that may have led to a breakdown of communication, which in turn led him to believe that you changed your mind? (I'm not saying there was, just saying you need to look into that possibility too.)

(ms)Given that boundary, there shouldn't have been an issue. However, as I mentioned in my introductory post, Stewy's criteria of attraction are far wider than mine and, although he is not into "casual" sex with people he doesn't care anything for, he is capable of developing a preliminary bond much faster with a far larger demographic of individuals.

Not sure why this matters. I don't remember you writing anywhere that you said HE could not sleep with anyone he felt comfortable having sex with. you were not going to have sex with anyone who didn't meet your 3 requirements...

(ms)Further complicating the situation is the fact that I'm submissive by nature.

Be it what it is, this is still your responsibility to handle. In the big scheme of things you are responsible for taking care of your own needs and protecting yourself from harm at all times, in all situations, with all people. There are no excuses for not doing this as a healthy, fully functional, intelligent adult.

(ms)It is my driving force to wish to please others and to take pleasure in the process of them getting their needs met, my husband and my children being those people who's needs are most important to me, to the point of being paramount to my own.

While common, this is not a healthy behavior or outlook. We (women), just as much as any other person, must take care of our own selves before we can take care of another. When we allow ourselves to abuse ourselves, we teach others by example that abusing us is not only acceptable, but preferential.

(ms)Unfortunately, neither of us did much research into D/S at that point.

Already addressed, but again, when we're talking about two fully functional, intelligent adults, there is no excuse for agreeing to roles and activities together that you didn't research together for dangers and to be sure there was clear understanding between you.

(ms)When my husband became attracted to individuals that I did NOT, and time began to drag on with no potential partners meeting my "high standards," he began to get frustrated.

Not really pertinent. He had the ability to discuss this with you. You had the ability to work with him on compromises. But beyond negotiating for freedom to explore on his own, this isn't really pertinent.

That said, it should be noted that many a person has talked on this board about significant others who say they are ok with poly, and yet insist on setting requirements so impossible for their spouse to actually be polyamorous. It would be a good idea for both of you to consider this in terms of how you treat one another. If either or both of you are making demands that create an "impossibility" for the other to "explore" sexually with others without "breaking your rules for them," you are playing a very unhealthy game of manipulation. (This is worthy of a whole other thread, so I'll drop it for now.)

(ms)He put pressure on me to lower my standards and stop being so "picky."

IMHO, this in and of itself is ok. The problem is, what is picky? As I already said, it's a common issue for a less open person to create rules/stipulations that are so impossible as to cause the more open person distress in the situation. It would be good for you to look into this and ensure that your limitations were only upon yourself, and not upon him.

He should look into this and ensure that what he was demanding was only pertinent to himself and not you. (It sounds like he was making a demand pertinent to your participation, but if you in turn had said only couples sex with others, then he wouldn't have a choice.)

(ms)As my "Dom" he gave me instructions that if I had an "opportunity" or we had an "opportunity" to have an encounter with someone I felt "comfortable" with, to take it.

How do you define "comfortable"?
How does HE define "comfortable"?
Because if you both define it as (that list you made of 3 things) then I don't see where you would have a problem if you were told to take an opportunity to be with someone who met those 3 requirements...

or if you define it that way and he doesn't, then you had a responsibility to let him know that he was breaking boundary rules and that was NOT acceptable.

or if he defines it that way, but you didn't, again you had the responsibility to clarify and not allow yourself to break a boundary rule based on your misunderstanding.

or if neither of you define it that way, you had a responsibility again to put your foot down and not allow your boundary to be breached.

That said, he had a responsibility to understand (whether by research or whatever other method) that when he takes the role of a "Dom" he takes on the same level of responsibility for his actions in regards to you as a scoutmaster to a scout or a priest to his parishioner. He has a responsibility to understand that as a "Dom" he can not tell you to do something without THINKING ABOUT ALL OF THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES FIRST.

Also, he has a responsibility to understand, that by breaching your boundaries he automatically negates his authority, and as I mentioned on the phone, there are a number of different BDSM groups that require "membership" and an act such as that is a gross abuse of authority and would result in being kicked out of not only that group, but likely any nearby groups, as well.

And lastly, as RP said, it's the equivalent of reducing your purpose to that of a prostitute, which is beyond disrespectful, and not only inappropriate in terms of BDSM or marriage, but in terms of any relationship between two caring people.

 

[LovingRadiance]

(ms)Wanting to please him, wanting him to be fulfilled, I crossed a threshold I never should have crossed with people with whom I was NOT attracted to, did NOT have chemistry with and had NO bond with whatsoever.

THAT was a gross neglect of your own responsibility to yourself.

He was wrong for pushing you to, but no more or less wrong then you were for allowing yourself to. (I'm not saying he is not fully responsible for his gross misconduct in pushing you to, but that was addressed in my last paragraph.)

One must first respect oneself before one can give over one's trust to anyone else to protect them (and their own self respect).

(ms)That was a couple of years ago and since then, I have crossed that threshold repeatedly.

This is a clear-cut sign that you really need to see a therapist and so does he, separately, as noted by Mono. To allow yourself to repeatedly disrespect yourself in such a manner shows a huge issue with your own ability to properly prioritize yourself in respect to anyone else in life. This needs to be addressed before you can have a functional, healthy relationship with anyone in any form (lover, husband, Dom, friend, child, parent, etc.)

(ms)The result being that the connection between sex and emotional bonding was severed for me... however I was not fully AWARE of the disconnect until this week. When I realized the full extent of it, I was devastated.

I think that you ought be more devastated over the reality that you allowed yourself to be raped repeatedly for the same basic, non-essential and basically unimportant reason (him saying to).

IF one believes that their "deeper soul" self, most commonly found through emotions and artistic outlets, is more important than their bodies (as you often say you do...) then rape of their deeper soul is more a rape then if it were their physical body, and therefore much more damaging. And a Dom telling a sub to break a boundary is first a rape of their soul, in the case of sex, it's then also a rape of the body.

(ms)To make matters worse, it became clear to me that the disconnect wasn't compartmentalized... it had carried over into the sexual and emotional aspects of my marriage as well.

Actually I dare say it was the other way around. Your disconnect started with him. Then it carried over into the sexual and emotional relationships you had outside of your marriage as well (including with me).
(You didn't simply disconnect emotions from sex. You disconnected emotionally. I think if you really look into what I'm saying, and keep reading the personal messages I've been working to send you to explain where I am and why I am having issues in regards to our relationship, you'll see what I mean.)

(ms)I have no clue where to begin to try and repair the damage, or whether it's even repairable.

It is repairable. Been there, done that. It's not easy, it's not fast and it is a lot of work. But it can be done.

For your side, you need to
1. Stop having sex with anyone until and unless you feel that connection that you want, and it's on your own terms.

2. Talk to the therapist about dealing with this issue of "subbing" yourself out to anyone who shows even a remotely "dominating" personality, with no consideration for your own well-being, as that is a very co-dependent and self-destructive behavior. It might be related to the ADD. It is is related to your lack of self-esteem.

For his side,
1. Talk to the therapist about what makes him have such low self-esteem that he needs to dominate conversations, order people around or make them feel inferior to him by belittling them in order to feel secure. (You aren't the only person he does this with. It's a bigger issue then this example you've posted.)

2. He needs to research you. Seriously, he needs to learn you, every little iota of what makes you everything you are. What do you love? Loathe? Like? Hate? Need? Want? Miss? Long for? Hope to avoid? Colors? Tastes? Scents? Activities? Foods? Drinks? Special memories? Special dreams? Special fears? Who moves you (in good and bad ways)? When? How? Why? What moves you (in good and bad ways)? When? How? Why? I could go forever on this list! It's not exhaustive-but making it would be, you guessed it, exhausting! It's his job to do it and find the info-if you want to work this out. It's your job to answer his questions honestly, but it's his job to ask.

This does not work if you just jump up and offer him all of the info upfront. That doesn't build your trust or faith in him and it doesn't make him do the dirt work that will teach him how precious a commodity that type of knowledge is.

He and I have been discussing finding permanent polyamorous partners up until this point, and now we're completely confused about whether that would help or hurt the situation.

No person (or couple) should ever try to start a relationship with another person until they themselves are on solid footing. It's not loving to reach out to another when you yourself are flailing. It would be like if you were drowning and calling your child to come in the water to you. Totally ridiculous image, yes? Exactly the same image I have of two people who are flailing in themselves reaching out to have others join them.

Up until now, neither of us have had any long-term secondary sexual partners that we've had a deep bond with.

Resistance. OMG, resistance, LR.

WTF are you doing with a bf at all if you have no deep bond? Please reread all of this and answer it for yourself. The question is rhetorical, as far as I'm concerned. I don't need the answer. I already know it.

I have formed emotional bonds to other non-sexual partners, and I have FWBs that have been primarily sexual, but they are both FRIENDS with whom I at least feel *some* connection.

So help me out. Is some good enough for you? Because you say its not. If it's really not, what are you doing?

So, the crux of the debate is, the disconnect (as I call it) happened not within the context of one-on-one sex with my husband and me. It happened in the context of non-monogamy.

Faulty reasoning. I beg to differ. I won't repeat, but per our phone conversation, this is not true. It quite certainly started prior to non-monogamy coming into play. Furthermore, regardless of when it started, it was triggered by the issues of lack of the following: respect, trustworthiness, honesty, protection, loyalty, kindness, compassion, security and promotion and acceptance of self-growth in your marriage. Therefore, the problem is a marital problem, not a non-monogamy problem.

So, if we close our marriage to the possibility of polyamory and exclude possible sexual interaction with others that I have a deep bond with, would it still be possible to reconnect the association between sex and emotional bonding for me?

That would be stupid. Possibilities in life are endless and closing off future possibilities for anything is stupid.

That would be like me saying that the possibility of a monogamous relationship in my future is closed off. Absurd. If Maca died, and there wasn't anyone else I was in love with, would be in a monogamous relationship with GG. If GG died, and there wasn't anyone else I was in love with, I would be in a monogamous relationship with Maca.

However, for now, you need to back up and work on yourself, and he needs to back up and work on himself. The focus shouldn't be on anyone else, nor should it be on the marriage, at this point. You both need to fix yourselves first. Then work on the marriage. Then, when the marriage is stable, you can discuss the possibility of polyamory, swinging, BDSM, etc.

You need to rebuild trust before you can reconnect these things. You need to foster the connection, wherever you have it, without sex first. Use your experience of what "triggers" that sense of connection within you and the ensuing desire to share it more intimately, to help you recreate it with your husband in non-sexual ways.

Then when you have that sense of connection full time with him in the non-sexual realm, you can start instigating sexual behaviors with him when you desire to share more intimately. Not when he wants it. It has to be when you feel it.

Also, there's clearly a trust issue that now needs to be resolved because I entrusted Stewy with considering my emotional needs and psychological well-being as my Dom, and was let down... repeatedly (even tho I reiterated my needs to him frequently.)

More work, more time. The above suggestions will start that process. Skipping them will doom it. You may be able to create a sense that it's "all ok" for awhile, but that would be behavior of a typical cycle of abuse, as RP pointed out.

 

[LovingRadiance]

My instinct is that I need to address the problem where it began... outside of our marriage.

Not where it started. You instinctively want to go where you know you are safe. Purely animalistic, self-defense mechanism. No different from Maca wanting to go to his dad when he's having issues.

You don't feel safe inside of the marriage. You haven't been safe inside the marriage.

If it's fixable, it's only fixable inside of the marriage. The disconnect can be fixed outside of the marriage, but the marriage can only be fixed from within ,and the disconnect is only a symptom of the issues within the marriage. So, if you just want the connection back, get a divorce.
IF you want the marriage and the connection back,you have to fix it inside the marriage and it will likely take a few years of conscious connected concerted, daily effort.

That I need to find at least one other partner and for sex with that person to ONLY be associated with a deep, emotional connection.

You need to not have sex until you figure out how to be sure that you will always keep yourself safe, no matter what. It's not your partner's job to keep you safe for you, it's their job to back your up in keeping yourself safe.

Therefore, you need to continue to build deep emotional connections, and work with a therapist, with no sex, until your therapist can say that you are capable of properly caring for yourself. They make these great little vibrating toys. Become friends with one for now.

Yes, I know "he feels love through sex". He needs to get to a therapist and solve his issues without sex, as well.

It would probably help if sex between my husband and me only happened when there was a simultaneous emotional connection between us. I see that as being hard to accomplish, given that he has a much higher sex drive than me, and my nature being to want to please him and give him what he needs, even if it's to my own detriment.

If you both really want to fix this emotional disconnectedness, sex will have to happen only when there is a simultaneous emotional connection between you.

He fears that if I have lost that association with him, and I find it with another person, that it will prevent me from being able to repair my bond with him. He fears further damage to our marriage and losing each other altogether.

Making decisions in fear isn't generally a good idea. But I tend to agree with him,as explained previously.

If you try to solve it by making love and not addressing the things noted previously-it will also prevent you from truly repairing and creating that bond with him and further damage your marriage etc.

What if it can only be repaired outside our marriage?

Not the case.

What if it can't be repaired?

It can, but are you willing to actually put in the hours, days, months, years required?

What if it can be repaired within our marriage but additional relationships would neither hurt nor help?

Not really pertinent. Sex won't help regardless of who it is right now (in or out of the marriage) and everyone needs additional relationships of some sort. So you both need to create outside additional relationships that are not sexual, but have deep, meaning for each of you (and the other people), close, connected bonds, and promote healthy and productive growth in yourselves.

What if repairing it outside our marriage makes him feel insecure?

Can't be done, so it doesn't matter. But he needs to deal with his insecurities. They are his problem and his responsibility to resolve. He might ought to check out www.xeromag.com about that. And if that isn't clear enough for him or he wants more info, PM Ceoli on where to find more articles by that guy. Mono suggests the book I already told you about. (I have two copies).

The therapist can work with him if he's willing to take responsibility and say "I have this issue," instead of continuing to push it off on "this action makes me insecure" (which isn't the way it works anyway).

Whose needs do we prioritize?

You each need to individually prioritize your own needs while committing to "do no harm" to one another in the process. That does not mean "well it's harmful to him to not have sex, so I have to give it to him". It's harmful for you to continue to placate the underlying issues that leave him only feeling loved when he gets sex AND it's harmful to you to continue having sex when you don't want it and are allowing yourself to be used for his needs IN SPITE of your own.

I discussed your concern with Stewy and he responded that the purpose of posting for input was exactly for that, input. That we need, and will value all input. Especially yours.
Our goal is that the bond be repaired. How it gets repaired is of secondary importance. So, we both welcome any and all perspectives.

One can only hope.

I've got to admit I am way out of my depth and think much differently about the fragility of connection. I do believe others can take that away and have experienced this in short term and long term ways. My recommendation: seek professional help. Counselling with the right person did wonders for me. All too often people try desperately to avoid the help of pros. Keep that option in mind.

Great advice there. Obviously I don't necessarily agree with Mono in theory, but the bottom line is the same.
I think that I should clarify. I don't believe that an outside person can destroy a connection between you and your husband without you or him allowing it. But if you or he allow it, then yes, I agree with Mono. Unfortunately, most people don't know how to "not allow" it. I forget that sometimes, as it's something I've mastered. But the bottom line is, get therapy. It does help if you put yourself into it 100%.

I just read this and frankly it has sent a chill down my spine. I feel like I want to vomit when I think of a dom making you have sex with people you don't want to. Speaking as a dom I would never do that. I am absolutely appalled and speechless. You'll have to wait for my response.

RP, from the heart. No, MS doesn't know you, either of you. Any of us. But, RP speaks as Stewy's "equal" in the D/s world, and that alone should earn her a great deal of respect. As an educated and more experienced dom, her opinion should be critically important to you, both of you.
Especially when taken in context with other posts on this board (by Mono) about her as a dom.

RP: it sounds like you made it clear from the beginning that you have certain criteria for having sexual relationships with people. Whether or not your husband is good at "developing a preliminary bond much faster" has no bearing on that, or shouldn't in my opinion. You should have done some research into D/s before hand. Anyone starting out should. If you wanted to know how to belly dance you would go and take a class, sure you can shimmy your hips around, but if you do that too much you can hurt your back... the same goes for BDSM, only it can damage you psychologically, as you have found out.

Bolding by me. Again, as being more experienced at BDSM and polyamory, her advice should be respected, at least until such time as you have more knowledge and experience in the topic at hand.

High standards mean you are taking care of yourself sexually, there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't. Your body and mind were telling you something with those "high standards" and that is that it wasn't good for you to get into what was being offered... because it would be damaging.

Very important, All of us must take care of ourselves first and we need to listen to our "inner" selves when they tell us something.
Sometimes it's wrong, but we need to listen and then we need to correct, not just ignore and click "override".

(rp)You didn't listen to yourself first, but chose to listen to your husband. Any sub will tell you that the bottom line is that you have to be okay with what is going on... the point is to be energetically charged and excited about being submissive, not damaged.

I dare to correct-- any experienced and/or healthy sub... (and at least one has).

(rp)You were not being "picky," you were listening to your self at that point and that deserved some respect. He didn't respect that. He disrespected you. He didn't cherish your safety, he abused his authority over you. He should never of dictated that you should take any "opportunity" that comes along if you were telling him you weren't comfortable.

You didn't respect yourself. He didn't respect you. By your own admission this was a continual problem.
The cause of those two things must be addressed deeply first. Deeply, meaning the bottom line cause of lack of respect. Not the "Well, I felt like you wanted" cause-the real underlying cause, in both cases.

(rp) There should of been a change in your relationship if he was frustrated. It should of been talked out so that you both had your needs met and were safe and the boundaries were clear.

There should have been boundaries and they should have been renegotiated. Going forward there must be boundaries and they will need renegotiated as you each grow, learn and move forward towards true connection and trust.

(rp)Essentially he has prostituted you out so that he can get off.

The details of with whom are arbitrary. But the point is not. And the other point is, you allowed it.

(rp)Not only that, but you were violated by others because of him.

The point is valid. You allowed it.

 

[LovingRadiance]

(rp)That is no way to treat a woman you love.

That is no way to treat anyone you love. That is no way to treat anyone, period. Either allowing abuse or abusing is no way to show love. (I had this exact conversation with Maca because I said if I know it's abuse I am responsible to say, but if saying it creates a breakdown of a relationship she is dependent on... which is more loving? Thus, such a long time frame between you asking me why I was not socializing and when I started writing background answers.)

(rp)I would wonder if he even loves you, or knows how to love.

Bingo. As I said about Tina, she believes with all she knows that she loves Maca, but the truth is that she doesn't know love, and doesn't love herself and therefore cannot love Maca.
Same problem.

(rp)You went against what everything in your body said was wrong. You weren't seeing yourself as a thing of beauty that needed to be preserved for special moments of bonding and connection that make you feel cherished, adored, admired for who you are. You lost your integrity and sense of being a mystery to others that should be guarded and the secret given to those you respect and who respect you. Your specialness was taken away from you.

Bingo!
Bingo!
Bingo!
Read this until it sinks into your soul, MS.

(rp)Why would you feel special to your husband if he has treated you this way. To me it would be like being obliged to sleep with my abuser...

Bingo. (I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but seriously, dead right.)

KEYS

(rp)some therapy with a therapist that is familiar to poly relationships.

(rp)your husband should stop his dominant role in your life entirely

you should start taking a hold of your own life in order to regain some feelings of autonomy from him.

(rp)do a lot of educating yourselves before getting back to it.

(D/s)

(rp)you need to stop having sex

stop pursuing any sexual relationships with anyone

(rp)forget working on poly in this way until this is sorted out.

Meaning no sexual relationships, not no "loving" relationships.

(rp)There is no way in hell that ...either of you are ready for the amount of work and stability that a poly relationship takes

(rp)Anyone that comes into your lives in such a way right now will not stay around

Because being anywhere around is dangerous, and at the least, painfully hard to deal with emotionally as well as psychologically.

(rp)you have some major issues to work out.

Major means huge, not a few weeks or months to fix.

(rp)Not only that, they could get hurt.

Precisely.

(rp)it sounds like you want another primary partner because you have completely lost your connection with your husband and either don't want to fix it because of who he is or you don't think it is fixable and rightly so...

That it does, and this is something you need to really introspect on.

(rp)My concern at this point is that you won't be able to do it and will break up or worse don't bother and teach your kids that the way their dad treats you is okay... that women are meant to be treated as he treats you.

Big issue to address. It is a problem in your family.

(rp)I would not at all be surprised if this attitude has carried to your everyday life in some way.

My impression is actually that it was already in your everyday life and then pervaded your sex life, as well. But either way, yes, big issue to address as well.

(rp)Women who are subs in a D/s relationships are admired, taken care of, nurtured... anyone deserves that in a sub role.

I would say: People who are subs.

(rp)He seems to think that they are to boss around, disrespect, think little of in terms of their emotions and psychological needs and generally prostitute out and abuse his power with. That has got to of fucked with his brain at this point.

Well worth addressing this, as well.

(rp)Get a hold of your life for your self and show your kids that you deserve respect, just as you would expect they would also deserve. Just because you are submissive does not mean that you should not be listening to important messages you yourself are giving you. Listen to yourself! Demand as your right as a sub to be taken care of properly.

Imperative. This needs addressed no matter what happens to the marriage.

(rp)Otherwise leave and find someone that will.

I disagree. You must figure this out and have someone who will also. But you must do it first for yourself.

(CdM)I have to echo what Redpepper said, just because you are a sub doesn't give anyone the right to violate your own boundaries.

Anyone.

 

[LovingRadiance]

(CdM)Based on what you have said, you set out boundaries for opening your marriage and he rode rough-shod over them because of his impatience to "get on with it". He betrayed your trust and showed you little to no respect.

Rushing always fucks things up-I agree with Maca on this detail.

(CDM)I agree that right now you shouldn't be concerning yourself with anyone else outside of your marriage - find out whether you can get back to a feeling of stability and trust with your current partner. I strongly believe that a relationship has to have solid trust as a foundation and that an open relationship needs it even more. It doesn't sound like you have that right now, and that is what you need to find out whether you can get back or not - and that is between you are your partner.

This is repeated all over the net in terms of poly relationships. There is a REASON it's said SO OFTEN. It's because it's SO TRUE and it's SO NECESSARY.


Below red added by me.

(D/s)
It supposed to be all about feeling GOOD. The Dominant feels good pleasing the submissive, and the sub feels GOOD by pleasing the Dom. It is NOT about the Dom "expanding" the sub's boundaries by making him or her do things they are not ready to do or wouldn't normally want to do (unless this is ASKED FOR and AGREED TO without emotional blackmail).

(gs)I think it's really important to state first that this is a prime example of why it's soooooo important to grasp the distinction between love/connection and sex. As I've no doubt said before - as have others - the two CAN go together and it's a beautiful thing when they do ! But neither is a 'requirement' of the other.

Very true, very apt.
BUT only YOU as an individual can decide if you CHOOSE to have sex without that love/connection. If you don't choose to, then you are responsible for not letting someone else manipulate into doing so.

(gs)Now I'm not going to make ANY judgment on that one way or the other but only say that you need to just be aware that it's a 'choice'. A choice each individual may make but when making it, that's it a conscious, INFORMED choice and not coming from a place of dogma, early invalid programming etc. But in my opinion and experience it's every bit as ethical (and desirable) to offer someone sexual pleasure when in need as it is to offer them food when hungry. Society in general does NOT hold that view. We all get to make that individual choice.

Key detail-as noted here, it's a choice and you both need to REALLY figure out what the heck you TRULY believe-then LIVE IT. Instead of talking about "theory" of living it.

(gs) One the one hand, you speak to your concept of the 'disconnect' - something you are afraid you have permanently lost, and on the other hand you fully acknowledge that in fact that 'connection' can and does still exist ! It's not always 'disconnected'. Confusion and confusing for you. But I bet if you were able somehow to rewind all of your sexual experiences with Stewy back to day one, you'd discover that not ALL of them were of the deep, bonding experiences. Some were just fun & pleasurable. Some probably weren't even that

VERY worth noting. Also worth SERIOUS consideration in regards to the example of the "first time" you gave me on the phone.
That was a horrifically DUMB way to start a relationship. You really need to go back and figure out WHY you decided it was "ok" or "safe" to go forward from there-FIRST. THEN you work on whether or not you are able NOW to decide what IS or is not safe. THEN when you resolve THAT issue you can work on staying or leaving and if you decide to stay THEN you can work on the marriage...

(gs)I seriously hope that you don't feel that the 'bond' that existed between you two has broken ! If the only 'bond' that existed was sexually based you have a whole bigger issue to deal with !

Yes-yes you do. Again, time to go BACKWARDS to the beginning and figure out, why did you move forward from that beginning, what was it that made you decide it was safe AND was it correct or no?

(gs)... BDSM ...It seems a LOT of detailed knowledge is important for traveling that path. It may well be possible that both your understandings of the roles of Dom/sub may have been lacking some of that real in depth knowledge.

To say the VERY least.

(gs)So as traumatic as this all seems now, I do believe there's a big potential for something wonderful to come out of it. But THAT is primarily a 'choice'.

Yes it does have that potential, but potential is NOTHING without persistence in solving the underlying issues.

(Lemon)You should take what Redpepper said seriously. Your husband abused his power, and he needs to be taught more before he takes that role again.

VERY true.

(lemon)I have not had exactly the same experience you have, but I have spent some time working on my marriage with a poly-friendly counsellor--BTW, I **highly** recommend finding your own poly-friendly therapist.

That would be awesome, but personally I haven't been able to find one in the whole damn state.

Another good list of steps:

(lemon)... try physical contact for the sake of physical contact--cuddling but knowing that there will be no sex afterward.

(lemon)Schedule time for intimacy--not sex, but talking just to each other, cuddling, paying attention to each other with no distractions.

(lemon)build the habit

(lemon)scheduling it helps prevent blame--if it's on the schedule, then no one can say, "you're always on the computer" or "you're never home in time" or even "I just couldn't fit it in".

(lemon)You ALWAYS have rights. Even as a sub, you have rights, and you should have negotiated them beforehand. There are some wonderful books out there about BDSM, please please find one and read it.

(lemon)you MUST take some time to figure out what you need and how that can be achieved. If you continue to place other's needs above your own, it will destroy your relationships.

(lemon)You are their model for a mom. If they see you always giving up what you need for the needs of others, then they will see that moms are not as valuable as anyone else. If you have a daughter, that's a terrible legacy to leave her. If you have a son, do you want him to treat his female partners that way? You are doing your children a favor if you learn to weigh your needs more heavily. It's hard, but oh so worth it, and you'll eventually see that you can do it without taking anything valuable from them.

Now, of course, none of us were there, so we don't know the dynamic of the communication that went on before this took place. We don't know whether boundaries were clearly laid-out - we just know that something happened such that afterwards, the OP feels that the boundaries got crossed and doesn't feel good about it.

Bold/underline by me. NECESSARY for boundaries to be laid out SPECIFICALLY and CLEARLY in ANY poly and/or D/s relationship. PERIOD.

He's devastated and fears it means the end of our marriage. He recognizes now what he did, what it did to me, and what he/we have lost in our marriage because of it. The bond he & I had during sex was sacred to him... yet at the same time he didn't recognize that it was no longer there for me.

Time to stop being "devastated" and start working. Work is the ONLY way it's going to get fixed.

I agree with you GS. I think it's important to feel the trauma, and then work towards healing without getting too caught up in becoming a life long victim of what happened. There are huge lessons to be learned from this and they won't be learned if midnight decides to stay a victim in it. The point is to move forward and become knowledgable about yourself and become something more... stronger, more ocnfident and assured of yourself.

That's all for tonight. I'm tired, my fingers and hands are sweaty and clammy-and it's already 9:30 nearly with no time with Maca, so I gotta go.

 

[CielDuMatin]

Quote:Originally Posted by midnightsun He's devastated and fears it means the end of our marriage. He recognizes now what he did, what it did to me, and what he/we have lost in our marriage because of it. The bond he & I had during sex was sacred to him... yet at the same time he didn't recognize that it was no longer there for me.

Time to stop being "devastated" and start working. Work is the ONLY way it's going to get fixed.

What I was trying to get to with this was whether the thing that seems obvious to us - that the primary relationship/marriage has essentially broken down, or whether he was blaming you and everyone else for things going wrong. I have experience of some of the more controlling types not taking any responsibility for their own actions, and instead blaming the world for them having a crappy life.

If he is devastated, then you are at a place where you can both look into putting the effort and work into trying to fix things between you - I would definitely recommend professional help with this, both individually and as a couple. This will help give you the tools you need to really start working on all of the issues that have been laid out here.

 

[GroundedSpirit]

How do you define comfortable? How does HE define comfortable?Because if you both define it as (that list you made of 3 things) then I don't see where you would have a problem if you were told to take an opportunity to be with someone who met those 3 requirements.

LR, this was an excellent post and detailed analysis. I learned some things. But as part of this post, you keyed on something that concerned me also, that I didn't think there was room to get into, that might be premature and distracting. Maybe now, after a number of people have added so many important points, it can come out a bit more. I've seen this be a big source of confusion for couples trying to navigate poly, swinging, open relationships, etc.

MS, at some point, we all set up visions of what a 'perfect/ideal' or even 'acceptable' new partner would be like. At some point in time someone, or everyone, begins to realize that maybe this 'ideal' might be rare or unrealistic. That's really common, almost standard. You and Stewy hit that point. Now, what to do?

When you hit that wall you are basically left with a few options.
1. Hold to the ideal and become increasingly frustrated and disharmonious-- not a good thing
2. Throw in the towel and abandon the lifestyle entirely (some do)
3. Re-evaluate the expectations and what you really are poly for, and possibly adjust the criteria

It appears you guys opted for choice #3.

As LR so aptly noted, this is where the discussions get deep and important. You absolutely must be on the same page and speaking the same language here.

Where I became concerned in your original post was when I saw where it appeared you had worked on this and come to an agreement that comfortable was sufficient, and that ideal might lead nowhere.

As LR in her quote above also picked up on, what in fact is comfortable? It's clear that comfortable isn't ideal (i.e., your 3 ideal conditions). But what was/is it ?

If it's any help, this is an issue I've struggled with also. And I don't know of anyone involved in any of the alternative lifestyles that hasn't. But if you think about it, this is really no different than the struggle we go through trying to connect to a primary partner. So the process is worth analyzing & mastering.

I've seen all of the mentioned options chosen. In fact, I have tried all 3. I finally settled on #3, but I can tell you that that's not easy either and is constantly evolving as I learn more about myself and other people. But I look on that as a positive rather than a negative. You sometimes end up in situations that don't work out 'ideally,' but still, if your criteria are well selected, can bring you (and others) together at some level that would not have happened otherwise. And there's always knowledge gained.

Choices, choices, choices.

To finish, from your (MS) OP, it's not really clear whether you guys really processed this in this manner. Some posters read that you actually didn't and that you were basically coerced (and you hint at that on one hand?) into throwing out any or all of your standards. Others seemed to read that you were part of the process and made your own choice. (You alluded to that, too.)

So I really didn't know how to address this until now. This post is really intended to bring this whole process to light for discussion, as much as to address you in particular, because it's something we all seem to have to deal with, unless we are just dumb lucky enough to stumble into option 1 right from the get-go, and that is rare.

 

[NeonKaos]

If EITHER of you (or BOTH of you) are making demands that create an "impossiblity" for the other to "explore" sexually with others without "breaking your rules for them"-you are playing a very unhealthy game of manipulation.
(this is worthy of a WHOLE other thread so I'll drop it for now)

We DO have a whole other thread about this:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1735

And thank you LR for taking the time and effort to write that LONG 5-part answer. This is one of the reasons we like to refer new people to older threads - you wouldn't want to type that in again would you?

I'm going to link to this in "Golden Nuggets" so folks can find it easier in the future.

 

[LovingRadiance]

We DO have a whole other thread about this:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1735

And thank you LR for taking the time and effort to write that LONG 5-part answer. This is one of the reasons we like to refer new people to older threads - you wouldn't want to type that in again would you?

I'm going to link to this in "Golden Nuggets" so folks can find it easier in the future.

Thanks, Ygirl. I had no doubt that there was a thread on that. Just was way too deep in my writing to look for the link right then.

And, hell no, I don't want to rewrite that! I worked for like three hours on it. (Maybe I ought go back to bed?)

 

[redpepper]

MS, I just wanted to say that you have been given a great gift here, the gift of insight. Not all women in your position are given that gift. Use it now. Listen to your friend and seek some help, both of you.

All is not lost. I wish you strength and some peace when you finally realize you have completed a long journey. There are some great gifts coming along the way, and the biggest one will be finding yourself. Go take the journey now and work hard. I'm rooting for you.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Ygirl posted this on another thread, but it's very valid in probably three quarters of the "problem" threads on here. So I've copied it here.

Write this 5000 times:

"Poly relationships are just like mono relationships, except there are more people involved."
Being in a one-on-one dynamic does not mean it won't be abusive or unhealthy, just as being in a multi-dynamic does not mean everyone gets their "needs met".

Mono wrote this on another thread. It sums up the concept I was speaking about (and Lemondrop noted first) about people seeing you not take care of yourself. He's not talking about that, but his point is identical. If you allow someone to take advantage of you (or anyone else) then you are condoning their behavior by your lack of action.
The "you're either with me or against me" concept-- if you do nothing, you are against me.

I do not associate having affairs with polyamorous behaviour, nor do I associate them with monogamous behaviour. I associate them with destructive behaviour. This is my experience, my observation, my opinion. Would I be a child molester if my partner was? No. Am I directly hurting that child? No, but turning a blind eye to that would be hurting that child. Turning a blind eye to that would be perpetuating and enabling that behaviour. Nothing would be learned and lives would be damaged.

 

[midnightsun]

Clarification, introspection and revalations...

It sounds like you made it clear from the beginning that you have certain criteria for having sexual relationships with people.

Yes, and no. After much reflection and discussion with him about how we'd started in the poly world, I had expressed that I didn't want casual, short-term relationships. He agreed. We initially only considered taking relationships to a sexual level if I felt attracted to them and felt chemistry. The problem was in the 2nd experience we had.

I had most of the discussions via email with the Dom of the couple, and connected to him intellectually. But when I met them (the first time, I was on my own, because Stewy was out of town) I only felt a sexual attraction and personal bond with the woman/his sub. The first sexual interaction was just between me and her, with some limited kissing between me and him. I did not want to take it any further with him. But I was fascinated by her and deeply wanted to explore my bisexuality further.

Stewy expressed how erotic he would find it if I slept with the Dom. However, he and the Dom both made it clear it was only if I wanted to. I knew it would please them both, so I pushed myself into it because I felt it was "package deal" and I wanted to primarily make my husband and the woman happy.

To clarify, the woman is submissive to men, dominant with women. I didn't see her as a sub. I felt the immediate attraction of someone who was clearly dominant to me. Also I felt insecure because I was afraid she was only being sexual with me because her Dom told her to, not because she wanted to.

*ding ding ding* Red flag there. Obviously, I was seeking her approval.

You should have done some research into D/s beforehand. Everyone starting out should.

Yes. Hindsight being 20/20, I should've done that.

The Dom told my husband to spend time educating himself on BDSM. I mistakenly put that whole responsibility onto him and didn't fathom the responsibility I had to educate myself on being a sub.

You were not being picky, you were listening to yourself at that point, and that deserved some respect. He didn't respect that. He disrespected you. He didn't cherish your safety; he abused his authority over you.

This is where I think I portrayed things incorrectly in my original post. When things didn't work out with the couple I mentioned above, he started pushing to find another couple. I had a bad taste in my mouth from the experience we'd just had and knew I wanted to move slower this time, which would be an intensive process that would require a lot of effort. I told him I wasn't interested in starting something new with anyone, but he was welcome to start a relationship on his own with a man/woman/couple/whatever in order to get his needs met.

Issue #1 was that he made it clear what he wanted was for me to be involved too. And issue #2 was that he didn't respect my requests to be left alone. He met a woman and then three more couples (over the course of two years) and naturally they wanted to make sure he was being honest about having my permission and blessing for him to be involved in a relationship without me. So, I found myself dragged into phone conversations I didn't have the time or patience for, emails, text messages, and IM conversations I didn't feel like having. And inevitably, the man or the woman or both would end up being intrigued and attracted to me and want my involvement, which put me in the position of having to say no, hurting or upsetting them.

I hate saying no to people, so I just don't start things or go looking for relationships until I've already met someone and already sense a connection. Each and every time I said no, Stewy completely respected that and never, at any point, coerced me into doing anything with any of those couples. But he complained about it, a lot! LOL

I still felt pressured and like he wasn't respecting a boundary I had put in place. We didn't have a written set of boundaries, which made it harder for us, I think, because we weren't as aware of them as they changed (which some did.) For example, initially I wasn't ok with him having a relationship with a woman that didn't involve me. Later I was. I'm sure that was perplexing to him on more than one occassion.

He should never have dictated that you should take any opportunity that came along, if you were telling him you weren't comfortable.

That happened very early on, when he gave me permission to have sexual encounters with men I met if I felt comfortable with them. He let me define what comfortable meant to me, but still expressed that he found it to be a turn on.

In re-evaluating what has been going on in our marriage, I see now that I pushed myself into situations I normally would not have (if single) in order to gain his approval and please him.

Essentially, he prostituted you out.

Actually, it would be much more accurate to say I prostituted myself out.

You weren't seeing yourself as a thing of beauty, that needed to be preserved for special moments of bonding and connection that made you feel cherished, adored, admired for who you are. You lost your integrity and sense of being a mystery to others that should be guarded, and the secret given to those you respect and who respect you.

Completely true. And the more I look at it, I did it to myself. Yes... he acknowledges the part he played in allowing it to happen, in encouraging it in some cases, and for taking advantage of what I was doing to myself on a few occasions, but the fault lies on both our shoulders. Probably most heavily on mine.

 

[midnightsun]

Your specialness was taken away from you. Why would you feel special to your husband if he has treated you this way? To me, it would be like being obliged to sleep with my abuser, because that is how I see him, as an abuser.

This is where there's an odd dynamic that requires a lot more explanation. I am extremely familiar with the cycle of abuse and have already recognized it somewhat in our marriage. But it is much more subtle than one would expect. It is based more around him insisting that I put his needs above my own, not just sexual needs, but mainly his need for sex and connection with me, even at times when it has been detrimental to me, when he knew I was sick, severely sleep-deprived, or physically/emotionally stressed out. That began before we opened our marriage. LR knows a lot of that history, which is why she honed in on the fact that the problems began inside our marriage. She's exactly right.

I think that this is the only way to regain what you have lost. That, and some therapy with a therapist that is familiar with poly relationships.

Not many of those to choose from in Alaska, but since the primary issues of trust, respect, connection and loss reside inside our marriage, I don't think I need a poly- or BDSM-friendly therapist for the majority of the issues.

I started seeing a therapist in October for what I thought was an un-related issue. Turns out there's no such thing. All of the issues in my life are connected and contributed to the disconnect between Stewy and me. I'll give more details in another post.

I think your husband should stop his dominant role in your life entirely and you should start taking a hold of your own life, in order to regain some feelings of autonomy from him.

We actually already had stopped before I even posted this. It was our second attempt at him being Dominant over me, and the lack of trust and connection between us doomed it from the start.

However, since one of his issues was in not prioritizing my needs at all for a long period in our marriage, I have suggested/encouraged that he continue to educate himself on the "caretaking" aspect of being a Dom. As my husband, he still needs to learn to consider and care for my needs (if he'd like to stay married to me) because I am still a sub at heart, and because every woman (or man) in a relationship deserves to be cherished, respected and have their needs met. There aren't nearly as many websites out there that teach men how to be good husbands as there are that teach them how to be loving, protective Doms. Where else can he learn it best in the manner I need it most from him? He agrees.

We've also stopped having or considering any sexual relationships outside of our marriage indefinitely.

To be honest, it sounds like you want another primary partner because you have completely lost your connection with your husband.

Thank you for having the courage to say this to me. You're right. I have been searching for a connected relationship, because on some level I knew I didn't have one. I was turning to polyamory because I didn't want to leave my husband. I do love him very much. I still feel some connection to him (Grounded Spirit was right), but I wasn't getting my needs met and the connection was not at the level I needed it to be.

I really think you have a lot of work to do.

That's an understatement! LOL! Thankfully I'm blessed to have LR as my best friend, and she has been supporting BOTH Stewy and me through all of this (as well as another family member who is struggling with some issues). I don't know how she does it, but thank god she does.

We do recognize the extent of the work ahead of us, and we are both committed to doing whatever we need to do to get to a healthy point in our marriage.

I would not at all be surprised if this attitude has carried to your everyday life in some way.

I think it was the other way around. His attitude in our everyday life carried over to our sex life, and then to our attempts at poly and BDSM.

I think your husband must completely have a warped sense of what women are about at this point.

That's not completely true. My husband has always loved, respected and cherished women. He was the guy in high school who was friends with mostly girls and who wasn't sexual with any of them. He was supportive, gave them a shoulder to cry on, and told them how they didn't deserve to be treated badly by guys. The quickest way to get a lecture from him was for a woman to talk negatively about herself or her body. His instant response is that society doesn't get to dictate what is attractive, that "skinny" doesn't mean beautiful, then to point out her strengths and attractive qualities in a loving, sincere way.

That said, his first marriage was warped in and of itself, especially in the area of sex. His first wife was was abusive to him, physically, emotionally, mentally and, in my opinion, sexually. She used sex as a commodity to get what she wanted out of him. She withheld it in order to get what she wanted, and when she finally gave in after months, she accused him of being a perverted sex addict for thinking about it and wanting it. She had been abused herself and perpetuated the cycle. I should have seen it coming, known the cycle would inevitably creep into our marriage in some form. I was naive.

As disconnected as she was from him during sex, he was equally deeply connected to me during sex, to the extent that it's the primary way he feels connected to me. In itself it's not a healthy dynamic, and it's what has caused him to put pressure on me to fulfil his needs when I didn't feel up to it. He is responsible for that pressure, and I am responsible for giving in.

That has got to of fucked with his brain at this point.

Understatement. LOL!

You have to think about getting a back bone. Get a hold of your life for yourself. Show your kids that you deserve respect, just as you would expect they would also deserve it.

Amen. This marriage has become an unhealthy environment for all of us. We are taking drastic and immediate steps to correct that, thanks to the insight and advice from this board and from friends and family.

I have not become disconnected, thankfully. To me, that would mean I have experienced a psychotic break and that I may be suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (something to think about and ask a trained therapist of psychiatrist about).

After much reflection on the words you wrote above, RP, I believe you are right. I suffered a psychotic break and didn't catch it. It happened last summer. I attributed the resulting issues I'm having with my daily functioning to my ADHD. I am also suffering from PTSD, but not for the reason you think I am. I'll explain that in that other post I keep alluding to.

I think it's really important to state first that this is a prime example of why it's so important to grasp the distinction between love/connection and sex. The two can go together, and it's a beautiful thing when they do. But neither is a requirement of the other.

GS, you don't know the half of it... yet. LOL! Thank you SO much for the hugs and the insight. I needed them both, equally.

I agree that sex and connection do not have to co-exist, and that the lack of a connection is not always an indication of an issue. However, the two are inextricable, for me. Sex, to me, has always been the ultimate expression of a bond between two people. I do not need sex with another person to get sexual gratification. If I want an orgasm, that's why man invented vibrators (or more likely woman did! ) and god gave me 10 fingers. What I need another person for is the emotional connection. It must exist on some level for me. Non-existent is not acceptable to me. It can be just fine for others, and I don't presume to judge their needs.

I bet if you were able somehow to rewind all of your sexual experiences with Stewy back to day one, you'd discover that not all of them were of the deep, bonding experiences. Some were just fun and pleasurable. Some probably weren't even that.

Actually, I did see the conflict in my statements when RP reacted the way she did, and I realized I hadn't actually been pushed into having sex with anyone that I wasn't connected to outside of my marriage. The person I had been pushed into having sex with when I felt no connection was my husband. You're right. That bond doesn't always need to be there, but at this point, it is almost never there during sex.

 

[midnightsun]

I seriously hope that you don't feel that the 'bond' that existed between you two has broken ! If the only 'bond' that existed was sexually based you have a whole bigger issue to deal with ! But I feel pretty comfortable saying I doubt that's the case

Very perceptive! You are correct, there is still a bond and love between us. It has not lessened or been threatened on his side of the relationship, at all. On my side, it has sustained a lot of damage, but we have stopped that damage and are working to repair it. Repairing the connection without a sexual element is necessary as a first step. Then we'll work towards reconnecting our sex life.

So as traumatic as this all seems now, I do believe there's a big potential for something wonderful to come out of it. But that is primarily a choice.

I agree, and to our credit (and sometimes our detriment) we are both emphatically stubborn, bull-headed people that refuse to give up when things get hard. Unfortunately, we both also tend to refuse to give up when things get unhealthy. That's where he was when I met him, in an unhealthy, unhappy marriage that he was staying in out of sheer stubborn loyalty, duty and devotion to his then 8-year-old son.

Hope this helps some.

Probably more than I'll ever be able to express! Thank you.

I highly recommend finding your own poly-friendly therapist. You would not believe what a relief it is to be able to discuss some of these things openly. My therapist has made some incredible insights and wonderful suggestions for my relationships.

I will eventually do this before we consider getting back into poly or BDSM relationships. For now, I have deeper issues to contend with that only apply to me as an individual, as does he. So, my primary focus is getting help now for the major issues, since I anticipate it will take time to find a poly/BDSM-friendly counselor.

Schedule time for intimacy--not sex, but talking just to each other, cuddling, paying attention to each other with no distractions. It doesn't seem romantic to schedule it, but it helps build the habit and frankly, scheduling it is better than not having it. Also, scheduling it helps prevent blame--if it's on the schedule, then no one can say, "you're always on the computer" or "you're never home in time" or even "I just couldn't fit it in". My marriage was in serious trouble last summer, and we (with the help of our fabulous girlfriend) said 11 o'clock was cuddle time, no excuses, TV off, no computer.

That sounds suspiciously like at least one person in your marriage has ADHD. LOL And yes, scheduling it is a perfect way of solving that issue. We've rollercoastered through that one. Sometimes there's not enough cuddle/talk time because of my ADHD and a tendency to overcommit or become distracted. Other times he's too needy and I have to pull back.

Try reading The Five Love Languages.

We actually both already have. I read the book almost 15 years ago when I was college age. I found it to be so helpful that I've given it and recommended it to many others. After 8 years of nagging, Stewy finally caved and read it last summer. It did help a lot.

You are their model for a mom. If they see you always giving up what you need for the needs of others, then they will see that moms are not as valuable as anyone else. If you have a daughter, that's a terrible legacy to leave her. If you have a son, do you want him to treat his female partners that way? You are doing your children a favor if you learn to weigh your needs more heavily. It's hard, but oh so worth it, and you'll eventually see that you can do it without taking anything valuable from them.

I have a daughter AND a son, and the example they deserve to have in both parents is someone who can fulfill their own needs without trampling on the needs of those around them. Balance. I must find balance...

Knowing this, has it changed the way you feel about what happened and, if so, how?

What has changed was my perception of his side of the connection. When his reaction was one of devastation because he hasn't lost that connection with me, I realized that I'd assumed he had. I assumed he didn't love me as much as he claimed to, otherwise I'd be able to "feel" it emanating from him.

I beg to differ. I think you are a very sensitive person, however you aren't really an emotionally intuitive person, which would mean that you seem to know a person's true feelings without being told; you tend to be too much of an optimist to truly intuit a persons emotions/intentions/thoughts. You often miss the clues that go against the grain of your natural optimistic outlook.

This has a horrible tendency to bite you in the ass on many occasions. Too many that I've personally witnessed, and plenty that were in fact with me.

There are two halves to this. You're right... and you're wrong. I really am an emotionally intuitive person. However, you have only known me since I lost my connection to this part of myself. And, I only just realized that I lost it BECAUSE of the post quoted above. So, first and foremost, thank you for your honesty.

Second, I am a naturally optimistic person, so that probably does cause me to misinterpret situations and bite me in the ass, as you've observed. But I think it goes much deeper than that. My gravitation towards optimism and the personal trauma I've lived through may have caused me to shut out negative emotions. I'm actually leaning towards the theory that it led me to shut out nearly all emotions, both positive and negative, including my own.

What does "sexual interaction" mean to you?

My actual definition starts at touching and kissing. Sexual interaction can actually occur without even that. My recent mutation of my definition of sexual interaction was most likely a result of the disconnect I experienced.

What do deep attraction and chemistry mean to you?

Deep attraction/chemistry = a longing for someone, a fascination with someone, a sometimes undefinable, reciprocated feeling that you are drawn to one another. Not necessarily in a sexual context.

What does "preliminary bond" mean to you?

That "click" where you just seem to instantly get each other, even though you've just met... when you first realize the potential for the deep attraction/chemistry I defined above. Kind of like our trip to Fairbanks, only by then I think we were past the preliminary in our friendship. LOL

I ask, because it's become evident to me recently-that whatever your understanding of these words is, it's not the same as mine, so I can't speak to this paragraph without asking for clarification.

In some ways your understanding differs from mine. In other ways, I've been ignoring what my own definitions are.

This strikes me as a huge question mark. I can't define exactly why-but it does. I wonder what it is you mean by "developed or foresee developing" because that seems like it would be a confusing thing for your husband (or any potential partners) to keep straight and understand.

I guess what I was trying to get at was the differentiation I make between feeling that initial click, and then recognizing the potential for a deep attraction/chemistry that will develop into a bonded relationship vs. already having the deep attraction and chemistry that must be there in order to develop a bonded relationship.

That said-it should be noted that many a person has talked on this board about significant others who SAY they are ok with poly and yet insist on setting requirements so impossible for their spouse to actually be polyamorous.

That wasn't the case, from my standpoint. It may very well have been the case from his. He may honestly have been subconsciously pushing me towards relationships where I didn't feel a bond, because on some level, he knew he'd feel threatened if I found someone I felt I could have that bond with. And when he pushed me towards getting a BF, that is *exactly* what ended up happening. It triggered his insecurities and a full-blown panic attack.

 

[midnightsun]

He had a responsibility to understand (whether by research or whatever other method) that when he takes the role of a "Dom" he takes on the same level of responsibility for his actions in regards to you as a scoutmaster to a scout or a priest to his parishioner. He has a responsibility to understand that as a "Dom" he can not tell you to do something without thinking about all of the potential consequences first.
Also, he has a responsibility to understand, that by breaching your boundaries he automatically negates his authority.

He didn't fully understand his responsibilities the first time that he took advantage of my willingness to violate my own boundaries. He had a better understanding the second time. But both times, he lacked the ability and experience to accurately weigh the consequences.

One must first respect oneself before one can give over one's trust to anyone else, to protect oneself (and one's own self respect).

Agreed. I can expect him to protect me from a lot of things, but not from myself, not without my own participation in the process.

This is a clear-cut sign that you really need to see a therapist, and so does he, separately. To allow yourself to repeatedly disrespect yourself in such a huge manner shows a huge issue with your own ability to properly prioritize yourself in respect to anyone else in life. This needs to be addressed before you can have a functional, healthy relationship with anyone in any form (lover, husband, Dom, friend, child, parent, etc.)

Very true. Every word of it.

I think that you ought be more devastated over the reality that you allowed yourself to be raped repeatedly for the same basic, non-essential and basically unimportant reason (he saying to).

If one believes that their "deeper soul" self, most commonly found through emotions and artistic outlets, is more important than their bodies (as you often say you do...) then rape of their deeper soul is more a rape than if it were their physical body, and therefore much more damaging. A Dom telling a sub to break a boundary is first a rape of their soul, in the case of sex, it's then also a rape of the body.

Profound... frightening... and very on-point for me. Although he never asked me to break a boundary for him, he allowed me to break my own boundary and abuse myself for him. He didn't force me to drink, but he led me to the fountain knowing that I would.

Your disconnect started with him. Then it carried over into the sexual and emotional relationships you had outside of your marriage as well (including with me).
(You didn't simply disconnect emotions from sex. You disconnected emotionally. I think if you REALLY look into what I'm saying-and keep reading the personal messages I've been working to send you to explain where I am and why I am having issues in relationship to OUR relationship-you'll see what I mean.)

I see that know. And that has been the most devastating loss of all. Sisterinlove said it quite well to me privately, "You didn't just lose your connection to sex or your husband, you lost your connection to yourself." In doing so, I lost my ability to connect with others, a very lonely and dangerous place to be.

No person (or couple) should ever try to start a relationship with another person until they themselves are on solid footing. It's not loving to reach out to another when you yourself are flailing. It would be like if you were drowning and calling your child to come in the water to you. Totally ridiculous image, yes? Exactly the same image I have of two people who are flailing in themselves reaching out to have others join them....

That's exactly what I've been doing.

Resistance.. OMG, resistance, LR.
WTF are you doing with a bf at all if you have no deep bond? Please reread all of this and answer it for yourself. The question is rhetorical, as far as I'm concerned. I don't need the answer. I already know it.

Now I know it too.

Is some good enough for you? You say it's not.

If it's really not, WTF are you doing?

No, it's not. It never has been. It will never be. I need deep, connected, bonded relationships in my life in order to function.

Not where it started. You instinctively want to go where you know you are safe. Purely animalistic, self-defense mechanism, no different from Maca wanting to go to his dad when he's having issue. You don't feel safe inside of the marriage. You haven't been safe inside of the marriage. If it's fixable-it's only fixable inside of the marriage.
The disconnect can be fixed outside of the marriage, but the marriage can only be fixed from within. The disconnect is only a symptom of the issues within the marriage.
So, if you just want the connection back, get a divorce.
IF you want the marriage and the connection bac, you have to fix it inside the marriage and it will likely take a few years of CONSCIOUS, CONCERTED, DAILY effort.

Very good point. But, I've since learned that the disconnect isn't a symptom of just the marriage. It's also symptom of other issues I haven't dealt with, but the marriage issues made them worse and increased the impact those issues had.

Rushing always fucks things up.

Yes. And I see how my impulsivity (and Stewy's) led to a lot of fuck-ups along the way in our marriage. Some of it can be attributed to the undiagnosed (at the time) ADHD in both of us. Still no excuse.

You both need to really figure out what the heck you truly believe, then live it, instead of talking about "theory" of living it.

Amen to that.

I just wanted to say that you have been given a great gift here. You have been given the gift of insight. Not all women in your position are given that gift. Use it now. Listen to your friend and seek some help. Both of you.

Understatement of the year! "Gift" doesn't even come close to describing it.

All is not lost and I wish for you strength and some peace when you finally realize you completed a long journey. There are some great gifts coming along the way, and the biggest one will be finding yourself. Go take the journey now and work hard. I'm rooting for you.

Thank you.

Thank you all for the time and thought you put into your responses, and to those of you who took the time to respond in other ways. I'll finish clarifying in another post shortly. And I'll keep you all posted as we progress in our journey.

We've been given a very precious thing... another chance to make things right and heal the wounds of the past.