How to coexist with a monogamist?

kdt26417 said:
Re (from Needingadvice22):


Well, that's something, right. It sounds like you just want more/better communication with her for now.
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Yup, I'll let y'all know how it goes tomorrow. I'm definitely learning a lot on here. Even if someone isn't poly, they should come here and ask for relationship advice. Y'all are like relationship gurus. I guess you would kind of have to be.
 
That was over a year ago. Her trust for me has dropped even more than what it was. She was devastated. She just can't get over the idea that I would desire relationships and or sex with others if she allowed it. She can't even comprehend why I would be ok with her being with another man. To her it was a huge slap in the face and a big fat "I don't love you anymore" moment. Even though I expressed that I can live without that lifestyle if it means being with her, the damage was already done. She brings it up constantly. I so wish I could take it back. But now when she asks again, I can't lie. I can't say I wouldn't desire that. \
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To a monogamist, someone else telling me that I need to be ok with THEM being ok with me being with someone else (whew, that was a mouthful) is partially stepping on what I value: being loyal to my partner. For me, it's less about my partner wanting 'freedom' for me and it's more that if he had that desire, to see me with someone else, that I feel like he isn't valuing that I choose to only be with him.

I haven't really tested the boundaries of *me* being open in our relationship - my partner says he would be OK with it - but what matters to me is that, even though he wouldn't mind me being with someone else, he respects that I don't want to be with someone else.

I think if you want to be a poly in a mono/poly relationship, you need to demonstrate that you respect the kind of love your monogamous partner is giving you. It doesn't mean being monogamous yourself; it means understanding that they do not wish to take on other partners. If she can respect that you can maintain your relationship with her - and if you really can maintain it - but take on other partners, that would be ideal.

You can love your partner for being monogamous, no?
 
Of course I can love her for being monogamous. Although I'm sure there would be some feelings of.... Well I don't know what the feelings would be to be honest. Maybe feelings of guilt on my side cause I get to enjoy something that she doesn't. But I'm sure I would get over that. Of course that's all a moot point given that I think it would be a miracle if she was even open to the idea.
 
I think given her family history and mine, she is scared to death of being that stupid girl that let's her husband get away with "cheating". Her grandmother knew her grandfather was cheating and stayed with him anyways. My mom always had a pretty good idea my dad was cheating and never really wanted to know. She is scared to death that what appears to her like a hall pass to cheat is making her exactly the woman she swore she would never be.
 
Have you talked with her about this family history issue?
 
Needingadvice22 said:
Of course I can love her for being monogamous. Although I'm sure there would be some feelings of.... Well I don't know what the feelings would be to be honest. Maybe feelings of guilt on my side cause I get to enjoy something that she doesn't. But I'm sure I would get over that. Of course that's all a moot point given that I think it would be a miracle if she was even open to the idea.
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Your guilt is based on your feelings and preference, not hers. You get to enjoy something she doesn't...but actually, if she is monogamous then she wouldn't enjoy it! I'm loathe to compare it to hobbies but say you loved to swim and she hated the water. Would you feel bad going for a swim just because it's something she doesn't like? People who choose to be monogamous want to love and be loyal to one person only. Really, you're not taking that away from her. She will still receive the love and affection from you I assume, assuming you wouldn't let any new relationships overwhelm you.

From my point of view, she should be glad that you are being open and honest about your ideal relationship structure rather than defaulting to cheating. It happens a lot, cheating, which in my mind just goes to show that monogamy doesn't work in some cases...
 
Update: didn't exactly go as I expected although I suppose it should have been expected. I don't know why I keep thinking she is suddenly going to have an epiphany and change the way she thinks (not just talking about poly, but in general). It's my own fault for not being more grounded in reality (Another flaw of mine. I'm a dreamer).

Anyways, we put the kids to bed and started the long awaited "talk". She wanted to do it in bed, so we could be comfortable and free from distractions. She pulled out her laptop and began her power point presentation. She talked about how we have to make this work because of the kids and how destroyed they would be if we don't make it work. She talked about why financially we can't afford divorce. Mostly the typical fear based approach she usually uses. But I will admit that I also have the general idea that if commitment and children and money were not in the equation, then we would have been divorced long ago, so I can't fault her too much. I just wish she would stop throwing it in my face like if I don't change, then all the kids problems will be my fault. That approach doesn't make me want to change. It makes me want to rebel.

She proceeded to say that we need to do something drastic to save our marriage. We can't keep going like we are and expect a different result. I whole heartedly agree. No disagreement from me. Then she said she wants to take a month and drastically change what we are doing in order to try to gain back our intimacy. And she started in with a list of all the changes she thought we should commit to. The list was mostly one sided, but how could it not be, one person came up with it, and it was most of the things she didn't like about our marriage, and a lot of it was fear based. She doesn't like me going out without her, because if I'm not with her then I'm obviously having sex with someone else. She doesn't like me being on Facebook, etc, etc.

So the list was essentially don't go out without each other, close our Facebook accounts, no phone usage once you get home from work, and most of everything else made sense. I can't remember it all. But it was a decent sized list and it wasn't really negotiable. She said, "if you can't give these things up for me then you obviously don't love me. I told her, "Give up TV too." She said she didn't want to. I said, "Then if you can't give up TV, then you must not love me." I was just trying to show her the absurdity of her initial statement. At the end of the day it's fine. It's just a month and I do want to try like hell to make it work. I'm not opposed to any of it.

But I'm still unsettled about it all. It just felt like it was all about her need for control than it did about any sort of mutually agreed upon temporary boundaries. I tried like heck to come up with some boundaries of my own to give her, but the problem is nothing she does bothers me. And that's the general problem with our relationship. So much of me bothers her. And I'm just a laid back and easy going guy who wants her to have freedom. The only thing I thought of was maybe that we turn the TV off by a certain time and go to bed. So she can't just keep watching TV even when I tell her I want to go to bed so we can have some time for intimacy (not just sex, but talking, snuggling or whatever). She tends to say, just one more show, and then crawl in bed and say she is too tired.

Most of what I would want from her would likely be sexual or touch related in nature (It's my love language). But you can't force a girl to touch you or have sex with you. I kind of wanted to ask her to commit to being submissive with me in the bedroom for a month after discussing limits, but that's not really a good idea is it? I think the most I'm going to get out of her is that I get to plan some dates and some might be sexual in nature. I want her to walk into a toy shop and for us to actually walk around and talk about what might be fun. Then buy something we commit to trying. I would love for her to go to a local class with me at the BDSM place in the area and just meet some people that are different. Not sure if that's asking too much?

I'll have to talk about how the open relationship talk went later or I'll be late for work. Needless to say it went just about as horribly as can be expected.
 
I sorry it did not go well.

But I will admit that I also have the general idea that if commitment and children and money were not in the equation, then we would have been divorced long ago
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If that is the best path for you guys -- money can be saved up for a divorce, and a separation until then.

I think children need healthy dynamics more than they need parents in the same house.

I am married to a person who stayed together "for the children" and divorced after he graduated. He says he wishes they would have divorced way sooner because then he wouldn't have had a drama childhood watching all the arguments. The writing was on the wall -- all the kids could see it. Just DO it so the kids lives can not be walking on eggshells.

Rather than thinking "is staying married the best solution for all the family members? Or a different model serve us better -- like divorced and coparenting? What brings most long term peace to the most members?"

"Staying together for the kids" is sometimes more about "staying together to prove I don't suck at marriage/so I don't look bad." Not really what is best for the kids. :(

It is possible to coparent well and have healthy kids while not being married and not in the same house.

She proceeded to say that we need to do something drastic to save our marriage.
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Save it from what? :confused:

Healthy changes? Acceptance that after 17 years it is still not working? Avoid working on her own insecure stuff?

She said, "if you can't give these things up for me then you obviously don't love me. I told her, "Give up TV too." She said she didn't want to. I said, "Then if you can't give up TV, then you must not love me."
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She has a wonky definition of love.

I see you got sucked into "tit for tat" again. You could stop doing that.

If she's the bottomless pit of need and uses your input to help fill her up? You are drained perpetually. That's not healthy for you nor her really. She could learn to self validate and that her value is intrinsic, from within. Not from outside of her.

But it does explain her want to always be with you when you go out, no Facebook , etc. You are her supply source, and she doesn't want to lose it or have anyone else tapping in. That also explains why she likes seeing you act jealous about her. Then you guys are talking the same currency. She hoards you because you are valuable, and you hoard her because she is valuable.

I was just trying to show her the absurdity of her initial statement.
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Given the 2 hour talking in the night thing, her upbringing with the "queen" mother, and now all this weird... could she have a personality disorder?

Because I see you are trying to use logic where there doesn't seem to be any. She's all off in Feelings Land.

It just felt like it was all about her need for control than it did about any sort of mutually agreed upon temporary boundaries.
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Sounds like it to me.

From https://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/Manipulation.html

This helps explain why appeals for fairness or logical arguments are often ineffective in persuading people with Personality Disorders to behave more fairly or lovingly. For them, their own feelings take precedence, while the feelings and needs of others may appear small and insignificant. This can result in a dysfunctional Situational Ethic in the mind of the person with the Personality Disorder in which the end (resolving the internal feelings) justifies the means (controlling, manipulating or hurting someone close).
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I suggest you stop with the open relationship conversation thing and take a step back. Before you can move on to do new stuff (even just new talking about stuff) -- all players have to be healthy players. Assess if you even have healthy players here.

Is there depression? Anxiety? Are you partnered to a PD person? Start with the toolbox and then explore the rest. See if anything rings true, and if so? Get you and your wife the help you both need.

https://outofthefog.net/CommonNonBehaviors/Toolbox.html

I could be wrong, but if not? Then you have a whole other bucket of problems to address first before you can deal with the sex/intimacy problems in the marriage. Or talking about Open relationships in a constructive way.

Do not suggest kink -- that's def best with healthy people and I don't think your wife is healthy. Do not add more to the problem pile. Take away from the problem pile.

You do not have to stay in this marriage if that is no longer what you want. But you could assess what it is you actually have going on here before making a life changing decision like that.

Galagirl
 
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As for the Poly thing, the mere mention of it brings tears, anger, jealousy and pretty much every horrible emotion. She still thinks I've been possessed by the devil, and I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too, and just want an excuse to go screw whomever I want, and all of it just means I don't love her and I think she believes that if she can somehow make me happier, then I won't want it anymore. And any attempt to speak truth to any of it is just seen as me trying to talk her into doing it. She doesn't want to hear a single word to even justify the thinking behind it, because to her it is of the devil and she still can't understand why I would want to hurt her on purpose. It's just a complete and utter mess. All she wanted to do was belittle and speak anger and hatred toward any concept of it, and didn't want me to correct her on anything. It was painful, not just because I wanted desperately to be understood, but also because this is the crux of why I struggle to find intimacy with her. Anything I want to talk about that is difficult for her to hear is immediately shut down. She doesn't really want to know all if me and she is happy loving most of me and ignoring the rest. To me that's not a deep intimate relationship. That's surface level stuff. I know all the deepest and darkest parts of her and I feel closer to her knowing it. I just wish she was capable of doing the same for me.

At one point she said, "I know myself. I know if I got intimate with another man and we fell in love, I would leave you eventually. Why would you want that?" It's hard to respond to that with truth and have it not be painful. In particular without her really understanding what poly is and what it isn't. I said, "If that is the case, then why are you with me now? That tells me you're less loyal than I thought you were. I wouldn't leave you in that scenario." That just set her off even more. But I did get one tidbit of concrete rejection that seemed a little less than selfish (she actually admitted she was selfish in the bedroom). Most if her reactions to why poly is not loving were what I can selfish reasons which I then tend to think are the exact opposite of loving. Things like jealousy, fear, and possessive nature. She did say though that she just isn't comfortable with risking our relationship. Obviously that's not her only objection because if it was then I could give her an ultimatum tomorrow and she would begrudgingly say yes. But that ain't happening so there is a lot more going on. But it does speak to a major difference in how we think. She does NOT want risk in her life. It's why she seeks to control everything. Not only am I not afraid to take risks in life, I don't think you are living if you don't. And in all honesty, if she fell in love with another man and was perfectly happy with him and decided she would be happier being monogamous with him, it would be painful, but her happiness is important to me. Even if it's at my own expense. That's how I define love. So I wouldn't be sad that opening my relationship made that happen. I would be happy that she finally found a way to be happier.
 
I am sorry you had a rough time tying to talk to her. This part didn't sound great either. :(

I think she is ("monoamorous" in love style and "monogamous" in relationship shape preference.) Additionally I think she might have depression, anxiety or a PD -- (borderline) or (avoidant) or similar. That's my guess. Because this all sounds way bigger than the normal "mono-poly" struggle thing to me.

all of it just means I don't love her and I think she believes that if she can somehow make me happier, then I won't want it anymore.
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In her belief system, that is indeed what it means. She believes she is only valuable if someone else values her and wants to "hoard" her. Much like she values you and wants to hoard you. You not wanting to hoard her, you wanting to be with other people -- is shattering her world and her belief system.

I know you are super frustrated with the state of the marriage, but shattering her isn't the way to bring it to health. I think you guys need professional help.

I said, "If that is the case, then why are you with me now? That tells me you're less loyal than I thought you were. I wouldn't leave you in that scenario."
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Dude, she's (monoamorous and monogamous.) She has a one sweetie slot. She is with you now because You are It.
What's there not to get? She does not understand why you would want her to go fill her sweetie slot with someone else.

You are not offering a V -- where you date and she does not. You seem to be offering "let's all date." She doesn't want to date. She has you.

You keep trying to talk to her in your language. Explaining that you have two slots and how you would save one of your slots for her because you value her. That's swell, but you are overlooking that she needs you to talk to her in her language. And you are not acknowledging that you lose other things. (See poly hell.)

There are things to gain, and things to lose when Opening a marriage.

Do you not want to be her Sweetie, in that slot? Say so directly. You sound like you have been wanting out a long time.

If you ARE still wanting to be her Sweetie in that slot, accept this is her love style. Reassure that you still want to be her Sweetie, that you love she is loving you and that she is loyal. Rather telling her "she's not loyal like you thought." I get what you are trying to say, but she's only hearing "You are not enough." HOW you say things lacks finesse when you yourself are starting to get tired/lose patience/temper.

That sounded like another marathon convo last night. You guys could talk in installments. Avoid setting up emotional flooding on both sides.

I also think you guys are getting stuck going round and round on that "do you really love me?" thing. And you are not stepping back to consider there might be more going on here than meets the eye.

Some upset is normal. But this sounds bigger than that to me.

All she wanted to do was belittle and speak anger and hatred toward any concept of it, and didn't want me to correct her on anything.
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When someone is feeling "attacked" like their world is shattering, they are going to come out "fighting" if they have no logic to temper it with. She is off in Feelings Land... "defending" against this attack, and she loves you, so she's going to make the idea the "enemy." Attack this poly idea at all costs. Even becoming verbally aggressive should it ever come up.

It was painful, not just because I wanted desperately to be understood,
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Valid need. People want to be known and understood authentically.

I struggle to find intimacy with her.
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You struggle to find mutuality. Like two way street relationship.

I know all the deepest and darkest parts of her and I feel closer to her knowing it. I just wish she was capable of doing the same for me.
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I think maybe you are trying to find healthy responses from a broken person, but maybe don't realize that yet? :(

Again, check the website later on when you have time.

See if you are partnered to an ill or Personality Disordered person. With all this emotion I would guess borderline or avoidant or similar.

I am not trying to dx here -- you would need an actual professional for that.

I am trying to help you make sense of what you might be experiencing. And I could be totally wrong in my guess that she could be ill. But that's the only thing I can think of to explain all this behavior.

Hang in there.
Galagirl
 
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Needingadvice22 said:
At one point she said, "I know myself. I know if I got intimate with another man and we fell in love, I would leave you eventually. Why would you want that?" It's hard to respond to that with truth and have it not be painful. In particular without her really understanding what poly is and what it isn't. I said, "If that is the case, then why are you with me now? That tells me you're less loyal than I thought you were. I wouldn't leave you in that scenario."
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Because she's mono, she's telling you the truth. It's not a lack of loyalty; it's the fact that, for us, nurturing romantic feelings toward someone else will pull us in that direction and away from our current partner.

For someone who's poly, it doesn't seem to work that way. She's still looking through the world through her own perspective and really doesn't understand yours. I had to try to suss out the difference in a way that made it understandable to me, and this didn't come overnight. It won't come overnight for your wife, either.

Basically, if you're monogamous, the only time you're dating multiple people is when you're "shopping around". You stop when you're committed to one relationship. To be told that it's okay to "shop around" feels like a demotion - like your partnership is far more casual than you thought it would be, and it's extremely unsettling when you look at it through those eyes. I was extremely hurt when my partner told me that he expected me to date... I felt as though I'd just be one of a sea of casual relationships, and I didn't want that. It took a while to understand where he was coming from.

The analogy I had to come up with in order to make sense of the difference: http://frombaltictoboardwalk.blogspot.com/2014/08/on-analogies-and-love.html

I kind of ruminated on it a bit in this post as well: http://frombaltictoboardwalk.blogspot.com/2014/11/a-followup-on-saturation-or-other-s.html

It is not easy to grok polyamory when you're a pendulum-type... when nurturing romantic feelings for someone would take you away from the person you care about now, it's easy to interpret your poly partner's actions as evidence that they're pulling away from YOU.

FWIW, I do agree that your discussions might benefit from some NVC (non-violent communication) techniques or counseling. Learning *how* to communicate with each other, or having a neutral third party (the counselor) to facilitate may help.
 
Galagirl, so much useful information. I think my way of dealing with her manipulations once I figured out what they were has always been to either use logic, or become distant.

How can I help her if this is true? What can I do to gently help her see this without her accusing me of attacking her character again?
 
This is all sounds so tough.

I suspect that the differing socialisation that men and women receive - especially when young are making this harder for both of you than it could be.

You said somewhere that you and your wife were together for 3 years before you got married. During that time you did what you both thought was the right thing and refrained from having sex - because sex without a marriage is bad.

Your belief was that once you got married and sex was no longer bad that lots of happy, carefree sex would happen as well as lots of discussion on the subject. That didn't happen and hasn't happened in 17 years and now things are pretty difficult between you guys.

I wonder if at least some of the difference may be around socialisation.

It seems to me that when I was growing up - I'm 42 and I'm assuming we're roughly ages with each other? - that the boys I was friends with received different messages from the messages I got. I was told to be careful not to get a reputation. That nice girls don't enjoy sex. That if I wanted to be respected and be potential wife material, I should make any boyfriend I had wait.

The boys on the other hand received different messages. They were told to be careful about pregnancy and STIs - especially HIV. Other than that, they were expected to want sex. To have plenty of girl friends especially when they were young. To talk to each other about sex and to seek out as many sexual experiences as they could until they found a 'good' girl who they might wait to have sex with and then they could marry her. (I've never approved of marriage even as a child so I listened to all that advice, then when everybody else was getting boyfriends, I had a series of FWBs. I made it very well known that I liked sex. I did everything I could to make it clear that I was not marriage material. :D)

See the difference? These messages can end up with boys who will wait if they have to but for whom sex is essentially a positive experience and girls who believe deep down that if they like sex, they are bad and dirty. This is a really pervasive message and still goes on now - I actually think that in some social groups it's worse now than it was then.

Then - young girls also learn that no matter what they look like, they are ugly and unattractive. Many women can't bear for anybody to see them naked - much less see them naked and contorted into different positions while having sex. I have adult friends in long term relationships who have never allowed a man to give them oral because they are concerned that he might open his eyes while doing it.

None of this adds up to a situation that is likely to create a happy, carefree sex life.

You and your wife likely had these messages in a much more powerful form than I did given that you were both quite religious while I grew up in a household where organised religion was very much frowned on.

I suspect this early learning has much to do with your wife's reluctance and difficulties with the subject of sex. She's probably spent most of her life practising thinking unpleasant thoughts about sex and people who enjoy it. That practise and habit will not go overnight and will not go without her wanting to make the effort to get rid of it.


Needingadvice22 said:
She does NOT want risk in her life. It's why she seeks to control everything. Not only am I not afraid to take risks in life, I don't think you are living if you don't.
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I don't want risk in my life either but it is impossible to live a life without it. Deciding to do something is a risk but so is deciding not to do it. Even avoiding making decisions carries risk.

There is risk everywhere.

Better to know about it and take steps to manage it than try to avoid it IMO.

IP
 
Glad my perspective on it helped you some.

I would give it a rest with her for now. Stop talking. Just be kind to each other. Take a time out. Avoid playing "tit for tat." That is not helpful here.

How can I help her if this is true? What can I do to gently help her see this without her accusing me of attacking her character again?
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YOU do not help her to see and get better if she's PD. It's a professional's job to help her with her behavior management.

You get YOU help first. Earlier in one of your posts you mentioned that maybe it is time to see a counselor. I agree.
Read more of the website. See a counselor for yourself. Tell them what it is in your own words. Something like this... I quote just to visually block it off.

I have recently realized I am polyamorous. My wife is monoamorous and monogamous. That is one problem.

My connection, authenticity, and mutuality needs are not met in the marriage. We have sex problems. Also communication problems. She whooshes emotional stuff at me, and I apply logic that doesn't work or I shut down/go distant. If it weren't for the cost of divorce and kids, I think I would have divorced her long ago. I am not sure I want to stay. We have been "keeping the truce" but that's shallow relating. I crave deeper relating and deeper connection with my wife that I am not getting. That's another problem.

I also think she could have a personality disorder. Maybe ___ or ____. I am not sure how to even approach that one so she doesn't think I am attacking her and then she whooshes some more at me. That is a third problem.

These are a lot of overlapping / interlocking issues. I don't know what order to try to solve them in.

I do not know what to do or how to arrive at a healthy place for both of us. I need help to assess these things. What I ultimately want is for both of us to be healthier people. It's been 17 years of wonky marriage. If she cannot get better, then just me be healthier then.

Does my wife have a PD? How do I find out/get help with that while sustaining myself? I need help with that.

I need help to figure out if I willing to stay married to a PD person and if that is healthy for me. That depends on how much personal responsibility will she take for herself and her condition. I need help finding that out.

Do I want to get a divorce? And just let go of the rope? Is that healthiest? I need help sorting my feelings on that too.

I need help making a lot of different "pros and cons" lists and getting perspective so I can figure out the best path for me.

Could you be able to help me with this, part of this, or refer me to some who can?
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Something like that.


And in all honesty, if she fell in love with another man and was perfectly happy with him and decided she would be happier being monogamous with him, it would be painful, but her happiness is important to me. Even if it's at my own expense. That's how I define love. So I wouldn't be sad that opening my relationship made that happen. I would be happy that she finally found a way to be happier.
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So... are you hoping to use poly as a soft break up/exit strategy? Not trying to be rude or anything... :eek:

Just thinking that if what you really want is to get out, then get out. Ask for counselor to help you emotionally prepare to ask for a separation/divorce, and then ask her for separation/divorce more directly. Then have counselor help you with managing feelings in transition and again post divorce. Nothing wrong with getting extra support in hard times in life.

If you want to stay with your wife, assess if all players are healthy and what can be done here. But if you already know that's NOT what you really want, don't go through the motions. YKWIM?

If this is about you getting more comfortable with the idea of Let go of the rope? You could benefit from doing that with a counselor's help.

A counselor can help you with a lot of things, but you have to know what you want the counselor's help FOR.

Hang in there!
Galagirl
 
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No, I definitely am not using Poly to create a good out. I genuinely want her to be happy and I'm definitely at the point where I feel like she would be happier with someone else. I would be ok with that because I love her and her happiness is important to me. I've always struggled with the fact that I can't make her happy. In the end though, I don't feel like she will be happier with someone else until she resolves some of her issues. Maybe at first she would be, but eventually he will fight back from her controlling him and she will be right back where she started.
 
Thank you for clarifying that.

So then... maybe figure out what you need to do next with a counselor? You don't need a single plan to solve one problem. I think you need help developing a strategy -- a collection of plans for addressing/solving MANY problems.

Galagirl
 
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