dingedheart
Well-known member
This perception of status-- being "the other woman," does that extend beyond the inside of your head? Being treated that way, or sneaking around in the shadows might influence or fuel this competitive stuff.
I'm the 'other woman'
- Thread starter newtoday
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newtoday
Member
Hi Papergrace. Yes, we have been focusing on other things. It's probably why we have lasted as long as we have. Sex is sex, and although it's wonderful, it's not sustainable to carry a relationship based on that aspect alone. We do have a wonderful time together. We share many interests, laugh and love a lot. It's just hard to have faith in that when we only spend one evening/overnight together a week.
Actually, I did tell him this morning that I need some reaffirmation in between our time together. He said he would try, and I know he will. He does love me.
And no, there doesn't have to be just One. I'm okay with two. I just fear sometimes that Julie might think otherwise at some point.
Actually, I did tell him this morning that I need some reaffirmation in between our time together. He said he would try, and I know he will. He does love me.
And no, there doesn't have to be just One. I'm okay with two. I just fear sometimes that Julie might think otherwise at some point.
newtoday
Member
Dingedheart, yes and no. I initially began this thread several months ago. Since then, some things have changed. We have communicated more and resolved quite a bit.
Jared doesn't treat me that way, no. But I am a secret from the majority of those they socialize with. His parents and brother know about me, as do some close friends, but I am excluded from a lot because of our secret. His reasons are valid-- fear of judgement of all three of us, him for "cheating" on his sick partner, her for being too weak-minded to put a stop to it, and me as a "homewrecker" piece of trash. We know that none of these things are true, but others are not always so understanding and accepting.
So, yes, when I'm excluded, it does extend outside my head.
It doesn't help either when he tells me that quite often he would rather just be with me, and his family supports that. They just want him to be happy, and he wasn't happy for a very long time, until we met.
Jared doesn't treat me that way, no. But I am a secret from the majority of those they socialize with. His parents and brother know about me, as do some close friends, but I am excluded from a lot because of our secret. His reasons are valid-- fear of judgement of all three of us, him for "cheating" on his sick partner, her for being too weak-minded to put a stop to it, and me as a "homewrecker" piece of trash. We know that none of these things are true, but others are not always so understanding and accepting.
So, yes, when I'm excluded, it does extend outside my head.
It doesn't help either when he tells me that quite often he would rather just be with me, and his family supports that. They just want him to be happy, and he wasn't happy for a very long time, until we met.
Thanks, Newtoday,
Personally, I think you need to check out your 'status' with him; would he value/defend/sustain your relationship if Julie does open sexually with him again? I'm not suggesting he wouldn't, but I think you are wise to be unsure. Quite possibly, he/you won't know until it actually happens. I suppose I'd just advise you to be aware of the possibility, and that you could find yourself frozen out. A lot depends on the strength of both your emotional tie with him and their commitment as a couple to polyamorous principles (as opposed to expediency).
"Several years later... she flinches if he tries to touch her." There are obviously powerful unresolved issues, pain and frustration going on between them, as well as a powerful connection.
On the theoretical level, I do think it's unrealistic to see sexual love as beyond jealousy or competition. That smacks of '60s luv'n'peace naivety. All of us, mono, poly, or whatever, have the contradictions of both love and hate in our makeup. We want: to belong and be separate; to possess and be free; to be secure and dangerous. It will serve us to recognize and accept these contradictions, in ourselves and our loved ones. Sexuality can be wild and ruthless. That's what makes it exciting! And what makes it fraught with emotional dangers!
Talk to him, talk to Julie, talk to your friends. Recognize that any and all of you could be hurt or could hurt each other and, ideally, create a respectful friendship that will transcend it. And enjoy it all!!! X
Personally, I think you need to check out your 'status' with him; would he value/defend/sustain your relationship if Julie does open sexually with him again? I'm not suggesting he wouldn't, but I think you are wise to be unsure. Quite possibly, he/you won't know until it actually happens. I suppose I'd just advise you to be aware of the possibility, and that you could find yourself frozen out. A lot depends on the strength of both your emotional tie with him and their commitment as a couple to polyamorous principles (as opposed to expediency).
"Several years later... she flinches if he tries to touch her." There are obviously powerful unresolved issues, pain and frustration going on between them, as well as a powerful connection.
On the theoretical level, I do think it's unrealistic to see sexual love as beyond jealousy or competition. That smacks of '60s luv'n'peace naivety. All of us, mono, poly, or whatever, have the contradictions of both love and hate in our makeup. We want: to belong and be separate; to possess and be free; to be secure and dangerous. It will serve us to recognize and accept these contradictions, in ourselves and our loved ones. Sexuality can be wild and ruthless. That's what makes it exciting! And what makes it fraught with emotional dangers!
Talk to him, talk to Julie, talk to your friends. Recognize that any and all of you could be hurt or could hurt each other and, ideally, create a respectful friendship that will transcend it. And enjoy it all!!! X
newtoday
Member
Nicraq, believe me, Jared and I have been around this topic more than once.
He assures me that if they did manage to get that part of their relationship back, it wouldn't change what he and I have. He assures me that they started down this path while they still had an active physical relationship, but 3 years ago, that stopped. He continued without her, but with her blessing.
The great thing about our relationship is that he does encourage me to tell him if something is upsetting or bothering me, and he will and DOES help me work through it. We can talk about anything... except her passive-aggressiveness towards me. That's off limits; he gets too defensive. In his eyes, she's perfect, sick, sweet, angelic, can do no wrong. I won't make him defend that, even though I know that nobody is that perfect.
Thank you for your thoughts. I really valued your input!
He assures me that if they did manage to get that part of their relationship back, it wouldn't change what he and I have. He assures me that they started down this path while they still had an active physical relationship, but 3 years ago, that stopped. He continued without her, but with her blessing.
The great thing about our relationship is that he does encourage me to tell him if something is upsetting or bothering me, and he will and DOES help me work through it. We can talk about anything... except her passive-aggressiveness towards me. That's off limits; he gets too defensive. In his eyes, she's perfect, sick, sweet, angelic, can do no wrong. I won't make him defend that, even though I know that nobody is that perfect.
Thank you for your thoughts. I really valued your input!
Speaking as a man, it sounds like you have a great thing going. I get his 'compartmentalising' (i.e., together once a week, not much communication between, keeping her passive-aggression off limits). I'm not sure whether it's 'healthy,' but very understandable, and if you're ok with it, then I'd leave well enough alone!
Back to your original question: yes, you are vulnerable, but my guess is that he really deeply appreciates what he has uniquely with you, and that won't be lost if he gets back the sex life he wants with Julie. (This is just my guess.) As to your feelings of jealousy, I do think, ultimately, they are something you'd have to deal with carefully, respecting their relationship. I hope that doesn't sound unsympathetic.
Back to your original question: yes, you are vulnerable, but my guess is that he really deeply appreciates what he has uniquely with you, and that won't be lost if he gets back the sex life he wants with Julie. (This is just my guess.) As to your feelings of jealousy, I do think, ultimately, they are something you'd have to deal with carefully, respecting their relationship. I hope that doesn't sound unsympathetic.
newtoday
Member
Nicraq, I agree. We do have a good thing. But he does want me to tell him when I'm confused, troubled, rather than bottle it up inside. So I will, carefully.
I would never put him in a position to defend her, and I will always be respectful. I just hope that she offers me the same courtesy. And if not, that he is just as defensive of me. He does love me, of that I am sure.
You don't sound unsympathetic at all, just honest, and I appreciate it a lot!
I would never put him in a position to defend her, and I will always be respectful. I just hope that she offers me the same courtesy. And if not, that he is just as defensive of me. He does love me, of that I am sure.
You don't sound unsympathetic at all, just honest, and I appreciate it a lot!
dingedheart
Well-known member
Not sure how being the secret other woman can be viewed as a "good thing going" for both parties. For Jared, it's great. He gets to have his full-time relationship with Julie. He doesn't have to feel the guilt and shame of dumping her once she got sick. Maybe the nurse/caregiver role helped him and her with any guilt he might have had in starting such a relationship.
In the beginning, it was about biological needs being satisfied. He got 75-90% of his relationship needs met from Julie, and got the 10-25% physical/sex piece from others. Now that love has entered the picture, all those numbers have shifted. The lines have gotten blurred a little, but there's still a split.
Conversely, newtoday has once-a-week physical interactions, and limited intra-week contact, and the "other woman" secret status with friends and relatives. Seems unbalanced to me. What's the % missing for her, 40-70%? 10-15%?
Everyone in this is really mono and is participating in polyamory by forced circumstance.
In the beginning, it was about biological needs being satisfied. He got 75-90% of his relationship needs met from Julie, and got the 10-25% physical/sex piece from others. Now that love has entered the picture, all those numbers have shifted. The lines have gotten blurred a little, but there's still a split.
Conversely, newtoday has once-a-week physical interactions, and limited intra-week contact, and the "other woman" secret status with friends and relatives. Seems unbalanced to me. What's the % missing for her, 40-70%? 10-15%?
Everyone in this is really mono and is participating in polyamory by forced circumstance.
newtoday
Member
Dingedheart, thank you for being my advocate here. What you stated does reflect my frustrations. It is very unbalanced, which Jared does acknowledge.
Reading other threads on here, there is such a wide variation in the amount of time that people spend with their "secondaries." Some are long distance; others have busy lives. I don't know what the norm is. Really, there is no norm as long as both feel fulfilled in their needs.
Most of the time, once a week is not enough for me. Considering they live just 20 minutes away, I don't understand why he won't make more time.
I'm seeing him this weekend, and I'm going to approach the subject again. I can't bottle it all up inside. I will end up leaving him because it's too hard to sustain.
I am new to poly. I am very open to sharing him with Julie. I have been since Day 1. I, too, agree that not all your needs can be met by one person. I tried that for many years with the same man. It didn't work.
They opened their relationship before Julie got ill, when their intimacy pretty much died. She got sick a couple of years later. He would definitely feel guilt and shame if he left her, yes. But they started down this path long before she got ill. I just don't know that she was expecting him to fall in love, despite the fact that she (supposedly) believes in polyamory. Given that, and her illness, could be the reason for this new passive-aggressiveness. I'm stubborn though, and keep trying to make this work for all of us.
Reading other threads on here, there is such a wide variation in the amount of time that people spend with their "secondaries." Some are long distance; others have busy lives. I don't know what the norm is. Really, there is no norm as long as both feel fulfilled in their needs.
Most of the time, once a week is not enough for me. Considering they live just 20 minutes away, I don't understand why he won't make more time.
I'm seeing him this weekend, and I'm going to approach the subject again. I can't bottle it all up inside. I will end up leaving him because it's too hard to sustain.
I am new to poly. I am very open to sharing him with Julie. I have been since Day 1. I, too, agree that not all your needs can be met by one person. I tried that for many years with the same man. It didn't work.
They opened their relationship before Julie got ill, when their intimacy pretty much died. She got sick a couple of years later. He would definitely feel guilt and shame if he left her, yes. But they started down this path long before she got ill. I just don't know that she was expecting him to fall in love, despite the fact that she (supposedly) believes in polyamory. Given that, and her illness, could be the reason for this new passive-aggressiveness. I'm stubborn though, and keep trying to make this work for all of us.
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dingedheart
Well-known member
It sounds like her vision of poly, or "open relationship," is him having is biological urges satisfied so she didn't have to. Sending him off to weekly hookers would have been fine, right? Did she have other lovers in their opening-up phase?
If you agree that all your needs can't be met by one person, then why haven't you sought out another person or people to feel complete? What are you waiting for?
How much contact do you have with Julie, where this passive-aggressiveness comes into play? Is your weekly time with Jared always on their turf?
If you agree that all your needs can't be met by one person, then why haven't you sought out another person or people to feel complete? What are you waiting for?
How much contact do you have with Julie, where this passive-aggressiveness comes into play? Is your weekly time with Jared always on their turf?
newtoday
Member
Jared had a number of very casual ladies, none that he was too emotionally attached to, until me.
Julie did have someone else whom she cared for deeply, but he moved away. Occasionally she goes to visit him.
My weekly time with Jared is always alone, without her. We do go out and do fun things together. He stays at my place overnight. We have breakfast in the morning. The timing problem is that I work during the day, while he typically works at night. So when he's not working, it's tough to be away from home too often.
Julie was fine with me, polite, friendly, and still is. The passive-aggressiveness was apparent when the 3 of us vacationed together recently. It came across loud and clear to me. It went over his head. I do think that it's because, for the first time, she saw how much I really meant to him, that I wasn't like the others.
That's when I asked Jared if Julie knew that he was in love with me. He said he hadn't said those words, but she would know that, based on the length of time we have been together, the overnights (which he's never done before), and the fact that he invited me along on their vacation; a vacation in which he and I shared the bed the entire time, while she slept alone.
I believe that she might have thrown off with seeing the depth of feelings between him and me. And then the silent hissing began.
You ask what I'm waiting for? I'm trying to compromise. I have something really special with him that I don't want to lose. Our relationship has evolved so much in the past year, and I know it will continue to evolve. He's asked me to have patience and we will work through it. And if, at some point, I lose hope that I will ever be satisfied, then I will move on. Otherwise, it's too special to give up. We have something rare and precious.
That might make me sound pathetic... but it's what feels right for me.
Julie did have someone else whom she cared for deeply, but he moved away. Occasionally she goes to visit him.
My weekly time with Jared is always alone, without her. We do go out and do fun things together. He stays at my place overnight. We have breakfast in the morning. The timing problem is that I work during the day, while he typically works at night. So when he's not working, it's tough to be away from home too often.
Julie was fine with me, polite, friendly, and still is. The passive-aggressiveness was apparent when the 3 of us vacationed together recently. It came across loud and clear to me. It went over his head.
I do think that it's because, for the first time, she saw how much I really meant to him, that I wasn't like the others.That's when I asked Jared if Julie knew that he was in love with me. He said he hadn't said those words, but she would know that, based on the length of time we have been together, the overnights (which he's never done before), and the fact that he invited me along on their vacation; a vacation in which he and I shared the bed the entire time, while she slept alone.
I believe that she might have thrown off with seeing the depth of feelings between him and me. And then the silent hissing began.
You ask what I'm waiting for? I'm trying to compromise. I have something really special with him that I don't want to lose. Our relationship has evolved so much in the past year, and I know it will continue to evolve. He's asked me to have patience and we will work through it. And if, at some point, I lose hope that I will ever be satisfied, then I will move on. Otherwise, it's too special to give up. We have something rare and precious.
That might make me sound pathetic... but it's what feels right for me.
AnnabelMore
Active member
If I went on a vacation with my life partner, and they spent the whole time sleeping with their other partner, and leaving me alone in a separate bed, I might get passive aggressive too! Even without sex, falling asleep together can feel wonderful. If there a reason Julie didn't get to share his nights on the trip?
Do you know if she even wanted you along on the vacation, or if that was all Jared's idea? If it was something that was supposed to be a special getaway for the two of them, but then suddenly he announced that you were coming too, and now her special escape with him was a group adventure instead... again, I can see why she might have been pissed.
Do you know if she even wanted you along on the vacation, or if that was all Jared's idea? If it was something that was supposed to be a special getaway for the two of them, but then suddenly he announced that you were coming too, and now her special escape with him was a group adventure instead... again, I can see why she might have been pissed.
SNeacail
New member
This might be the issue with the passive-aggressive behavior. I imagine that she felt pushed aside and abandoned while on vacation. Even if this arrangement was her idea, sometimes we don't know how we are going to feel until we are actually in that situation. You guys might just need to talk about it more next time and find a better arrangement that allows each of you to feel special.
AnnabelMore
Active member
And, by the way, no, it doesn't make you sound pathetic at ALL to consider your love rare and precious. That's a beautiful thing! It would be pathetic if you didn't even like him that much and were just going along with it because you didn't think you could do better. Don't ever be ashamed that you think your love is special. That's the right way to feel. Especially when you also have the self-esteem to still say you'll walk away if it turns out you can't get your needs met! You are strong.
dingedheart
Well-known member
Did her relationship with that other guy have a sexual component?
How was the whole vacation situation sold to you?
Or rather, how were you invited?
What was your initial reaction?
Did the 3 of you have conversations about it?
How were the sleeping arrangements decided?
Did you have separate rooms?
What I meant about was, if you believe that all your needs can't be met by any one person, and under your current dynamic, why wouldn't you want to find someone to supplement the vast downtime? Jared has been poly for a long time. He clearly gets it, so why the either-or attitude? Why should you have to give up anything? I was talking about you adding another partner for yourself.
The lesson learned is not making everyone special, but never doing joint vacations. They are not worth the trouble. That's my guess, anyway.
How was the whole vacation situation sold to you?
Or rather, how were you invited?
What was your initial reaction?
Did the 3 of you have conversations about it?
How were the sleeping arrangements decided?
Did you have separate rooms?
What I meant about was, if you believe that all your needs can't be met by any one person, and under your current dynamic, why wouldn't you want to find someone to supplement the vast downtime? Jared has been poly for a long time. He clearly gets it, so why the either-or attitude? Why should you have to give up anything? I was talking about you adding another partner for yourself.
The lesson learned is not making everyone special, but never doing joint vacations. They are not worth the trouble. That's my guess, anyway.
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A shared vacation? Yikes. I'd be expecting problems and trying to head them off.
I don't think my metamour would be at all willing to let her husband sleep with me every night. I would probably push him to sleep with her at least half the time. At the VERY least, I'd talk to her about what she felt she needed, and let her know that if she changed her mind and was uncomfortable, to please let me know. I'd also tell her that her bluntness was welcome, and that I trusted her to TELL me if she had a problem.
But, honestly, I don't foresee a joint vacation in our future. Maybe several years down the line, maybe? As well as we get along (we get along fine!), that still seems like a distant possibility, something along the lines of winning the lottery.
I don't think my metamour would be at all willing to let her husband sleep with me every night. I would probably push him to sleep with her at least half the time. At the VERY least, I'd talk to her about what she felt she needed, and let her know that if she changed her mind and was uncomfortable, to please let me know. I'd also tell her that her bluntness was welcome, and that I trusted her to TELL me if she had a problem.
But, honestly, I don't foresee a joint vacation in our future. Maybe several years down the line, maybe? As well as we get along (we get along fine!), that still seems like a distant possibility, something along the lines of winning the lottery.
newtoday
Member
Yikes! Lol! That caused some stir.
Jared invited me to come along. They were going for 5 weeks. He asked if I could get away for a couple of those. I asked if Julie was okay with that. He said she was very much okay with it. Because of her illness, she's no longer active; she tires easily. She knew he would be bored. She recognizes he and I have similar interests, so we could keep each other company.
How did we arrange the sleeping arrangements? The house had 2 bedrooms, one with a double bed, the other with a single bed. She insisted on that room. Insisted! I felt bad and pushed back for them to share the room, but she flat-out refused. It was as if she seized the opportunity to NOT sleep with him. I know that hurt him. I did offer, several times, to switch rooms with her, but she continued to refuse. I insisted he go be with her to sleep, but he refused. He wanted to stay with me. It made me feel awkward.
So I don't understand why she was pissed at me.
I left after 2 weeks. She did, I assume, move to that bedroom with him. But they were not intimate.
Dinged, yes, Julie's relationship with the other guy did have a sexual component, yet she still didn't want that with Jared. I know that hurts him. It is a level of rejection.
Jared invited me to come along. They were going for 5 weeks. He asked if I could get away for a couple of those. I asked if Julie was okay with that. He said she was very much okay with it. Because of her illness, she's no longer active; she tires easily. She knew he would be bored. She recognizes he and I have similar interests, so we could keep each other company.
How did we arrange the sleeping arrangements? The house had 2 bedrooms, one with a double bed, the other with a single bed. She insisted on that room. Insisted! I felt bad and pushed back for them to share the room, but she flat-out refused. It was as if she seized the opportunity to NOT sleep with him. I know that hurt him. I did offer, several times, to switch rooms with her, but she continued to refuse. I insisted he go be with her to sleep, but he refused. He wanted to stay with me. It made me feel awkward.
So I don't understand why she was pissed at me.
I left after 2 weeks. She did, I assume, move to that bedroom with him. But they were not intimate.
Dinged, yes, Julie's relationship with the other guy did have a sexual component, yet she still didn't want that with Jared. I know that hurts him. It is a level of rejection.
Arrowbound
New member
I don't know what your relationship with your metamour is like, but it seems like it's gotten to a point where there needs to be more communication between you and her separate from Jared, as well as communication between the three of you. For me, personally, the whole relaying what she says from him to you makes it harder for either of you to feel comfortable.
Julie might feel tense about the connection you two have, except she hasn't exactly voiced her discomfort. It has just become apparent physically.
I wonder when he is going to sit down with her and hash this whole thing out. I don't think she's necessarily against you; she might feel that you're in the way, though, since there's a lot they need to work through as a couple.
Julie might feel tense about the connection you two have, except she hasn't exactly voiced her discomfort. It has just become apparent physically.
I wonder when he is going to sit down with her and hash this whole thing out. I don't think she's necessarily against you; she might feel that you're in the way, though, since there's a lot they need to work through as a couple.
dingedheart
Well-known member
5 weeks... I see why he invited you. And I didn't automatically think you displaced her from a particular bed. I actually thought it was possible that her health condition made that her preference, be it at home or on vacation.
It sounds to me like some event triggered the ending of intimacy and the opening of their relationship. Like... Julie fell in love with another guy; Jared cheated on Julie with her sister; Jared got drunk and hit Julie; something. Those are just wild examples. But I think it's worth a look.
Let's say, then her feeling shifted towards roommate/business partner, but because she/they don't want to trash the family or lose the house and life, they come up with this plan. He's free to seek out other women because she didn't care. She doesn't see him that way anymore. Then she got sick, and he was the one taking care of her. If this wild speculation was even partly true, the complex set of emotions she'd have-- love, admiration, guilt, shame, etc. The illness has jammed everything up on both sides.
Is there a dominant partner in their relationship? Who calls the shots? Or who did before the illness, if that applies?
It sounds to me like some event triggered the ending of intimacy and the opening of their relationship. Like... Julie fell in love with another guy; Jared cheated on Julie with her sister; Jared got drunk and hit Julie; something. Those are just wild examples. But I think it's worth a look.
Let's say, then her feeling shifted towards roommate/business partner, but because she/they don't want to trash the family or lose the house and life, they come up with this plan. He's free to seek out other women because she didn't care. She doesn't see him that way anymore. Then she got sick, and he was the one taking care of her. If this wild speculation was even partly true, the complex set of emotions she'd have-- love, admiration, guilt, shame, etc. The illness has jammed everything up on both sides.
Is there a dominant partner in their relationship? Who calls the shots? Or who did before the illness, if that applies?