Internal Conflict Exposed

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BreakTheSky

New member
Hi,

This is my first post to this forum.

Here’s my background:

I’m a 29 year old heterosexual male who has struggled to maintain a monogamous relationship with any woman. I married my partner of 5 years (we’ll call her K) last September and I love her dearly. We have two cats and a dog together.

Unfortunately, I have in some ways created a life that doesn’t reflect my nature. I went back to my therapist (we’ll call him D) who helped me through a difficult time several years ago for help with an identity crisis… I desire and long to try polyamory but I’m in a monogamous relationship. After 8 visits, here is the summation of his advice:

1. Dating multiple people would be bad for me. I should be monogamous.

2. The reason I seek out other women is because I lack true intimacy with my partner.

3. To increase our intimacy, K and I need to better understand and accept each other for who we are. I need to better understand and accept myself.

4. I should avoid pornography because it increases the level of sexual excitement necessary for arousal.

5. I’m a good person.

His advice has created/exposed an internal conflict... if I’m to accept myself as I am (with the desire to be polyamorous), how (why) should I focus on becoming monogamous?

This week I reached out to a sex therapist (we’ll call her M) who is progressive and open minded about relationships. In getting to know me over the phone, she remarked that my therapist D gave me culturally normative advice (be monogamous) and that there are many different ways to create relationships.
My wife and I have our first appointment with M coming up next week. I’m not sure how to handle conflicting advice from therapists. Also, my wife isn’t interested in being polyamorous herself but understands that I’m different. She is willing to go to see the sex therapist M with me, but as she doesn’t think we have a problem, she doesn’t think she’ll get much out of the session.

I spoke to my friend who is finishing up her PHD in counseling (we’ll call her RJ) and she said conflicting advice from therapists is bad (I could have told her that lol). That’s why there is usually only one therapist seeing a client at a time.

What are your thoughts?
 
Greetings BreakTheSky,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

I think you need a poly-friendly therapist -- such as M. I would stop seeing D if I were you. I've had many therapists over the years, and have run out of patience for the ones that are a bad fit for me. You desire to build a polyamorous relationship model in your life. D is opposed to polyamory, and is making up emotional dysfunctions to explain away your polyamorous inclinations. That kind of therapy isn't going to help you.

How much does K know about your polyamorous wishes? It seems to me that if she knew how strongly you felt about it, she'd know there was a real problem here. I'm thinking you and K need to sit down and talk about it. You need to introduce K to the idea of polyamory, and tell her how important it is to you.

I'll try to give more thoughts and advice as we go along. I'd like to know more about your situation.

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter" :)

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Welcome aboard!
 
Thanks for the reply Kevin.

K knows that I’ve always been interested in having multiple relationships with women. I think she assumes that they are primarily sexually driven and although that is an important part, it is not the only part. I recognize that humanity is adapted for a very fluid sexuality… all combinations are possible but only a few are culturally reinforced.

I met a women a year after K and I started dating (we’ll call her H). Personality-wise she is very different from my wife. She is passionate, outspoken, questions everything and pushes my boundaries intellectually. She and I had an instant connection. I saw H twice a year for a couple years at work functions and our relationship went beyond emotional into the physical realm. This is the reason I sought out therapy in the first place. How could I love someone as strongly as I do K but have similar feelings for H? I must be a bad person for feeling this way (said the voice in my head). I felt like I was repeating the patterns of my youth… infidelity, impulsive, being selfish, etc.

At this point I should point out some of the attributes that my wife possesses that other women I’ve dated lack… she doesn’t judge, is extremely compassionate for animals, is loving, caring, predictable and puts others’ needs before her own. She will make an excellent mother if we ever decide to have children.

I read the book “The Ethical Slut” a few years ago and K read about half of it. She internalizes information different from me and doesn’t vocalize her thoughts. I don’t exactly know where she stands. She’s very agnostic. What I don’t want to happen is that she feels inadequate because of my desire for multiple relationships. I don’t want her to leave me. We both recognize it is unrealistic for any one person to satisfy a person’s needs… which is why we have friends and family.

My therapist D recommends that I do not ever mention the relationship I formed with H to K (because I’ve already caused damage, no need to cause more) and that I never contact H again. So far I’ve followed his advice but we’ll see what the new therapist M has to say. I’ll continue to see both for the near future.

I did meet with a group of poly people in Madison at a coffee shop before I met K but to be honest, they were a little weird for me : ) I'm hoping that that was the exception, not the rule.

Thanks again for everyone’s support!
 
1. Please consider nicknames instead of initials. Initials are very confusing.

2. Therapists are no magic pill. They can help you understand yourself and possibly your situation, but they are just people with their own perspectives. Don't adulate anyone's opinion just because he/she is a "therapist" or even a "poly-friendly therapist." Therapist, guru, priest, parent - they're all just people who have highly entrenched opinions. You are in charge of what is right for you.

3. Please get all of this crystal clear before going anywhere near having kids. Kids are massively stressful in general on a relationship. You do not want to be contending with this issue and babies at the same time.

4. Welcome to the forum. I've never been to a poly meet-up, but I do know a number of poly people and they are all "regular folks" with whom I would otherwise have quite a bit in common. I encourage you to keep reaching out and synching up with people who are open to multiple love relationships. As our member here, Journey, just said, "It's good to have a tribe."
 
Thanks for replying Happily Fallen Angel.

Per your advice, here are the nicknames:
My wife = K = Klaire
The coworker whom I’m interested in = H = Heather
My first therapist (old school) = D = Uncle Dave
My second therapist (open minded) = M = Maggie
My friend who is studying to be a therapist = RJ = Rowe

Sounds like my way of sorting through internal dilemma’s is to make them external. I put myself in situations (such as becoming more involved with Heather) that force me to deal with my internal issues.

As far as kids go, we’ve recognized that we’re not emotionally ready yet. We need to focus on enjoying this stage in our lives (I’m 29 and she’s 26) and build a solid foundation first. I have very mixed feelings on having kids. All of the research I’ve seen shows that happiness declines when people have children and yet having kids is in some ways a very selfish thing to do. Why have kids out of self-interest if it results in lower happiness? An alternative for us right now is the two cats, a dog and we are looking into fostering cats and dogs until they can find permanent homes.

How can you tell whether your behavior is reflecting your desire for NRE or whether it stems from a need for deeper fulfillment? I feel as if both have a place in my life. From a few readings, I interpret that focusing on NRE can become dysfunctional because your using people to get a feeling. Your thoughts?
 
I am sorry you struggle.

I saw H twice a year for a couple years at work functions and our relationship went beyond emotional into the physical realm.
Click to expand...

My therapist D recommends that I do not ever mention the relationship I formed with H to K (because I’ve already caused damage, no need to cause more) and that I never contact H again.
Click to expand...

Was this a cheating affair? And you have or have not told Klaire about it? I am confused. :confused:

I will assume you have told her and you both are healed from that already.

If not, I think you could come clean with Klaire. If not... It's weird to me this therapist seem to promote continuing lies of omission / step under rug rather than being more honest?

But I could be wrong and misreading. Could you be willing to clarify all that?

His advice has created/exposed an internal conflict... if I’m to accept myself as I am (with the desire to be polyamorous), how (why) should I focus on becoming monogamous?
Click to expand...

Exactly.

I would be asking you to focus on this -- "Why are you in some ways creating a life that doesn’t reflect your nature? What needs to change in order to bring it more into alignment with what you value? What DO you value?"

If the goal is accepting your poly self, work on that then. Part of that could include you starting to talk about your authentic feelings with your wife. Share that emotional intimacy. What's holding you back from fully engaging with her?

She internalizes information different from me and doesn’t vocalize her thoughts. I don’t exactly know where she stands.
Click to expand...

You seem to want to know things. You could ASK. Or if what you are after is reassurance, ask for that.

What I don’t want to happen is that she feels inadequate because of my desire for multiple relationships.
Click to expand...

Why not? You are not willing for her to know authentic you? You are not willing for her to be responsible for her own emotional management?

Some feelings are fun to feel. (Happy, excited) Some are not so fun. (sad, mad, scared.) Rather than trying to never experience anything yucky...

How about reframing it as "How could I handle it if she feels inadequate? What could I do to help?"

Focus more on your ability to cope and handle things as they come rather than your inability. That leads to a focus on avoiding things.

I don’t want her to leave me.
Click to expand...

That's not up to you. Her willingness to participate in things or not is up to her. So far, she's staying. So why are you focusing on doom things? Is this a thought pattern habit? :confused:

You could challenge the thought. Even if she left? You would be sad for a time. You would heal. And you would move on and be ok again in time.

I am not minimizing her importance to you. I see she's very important. What I am saying again is that you could learn focus on being able to cope with Life as it comes. Not over focus on doom things.

Maybe that's something to bring up with your new therapist. Coping skills and resilience. Losing a doom focus. Cultivating confidence within yourself.

Keep in mind not every therapist graduated at the top of their class, not every therapist is a good fit with you personality wise, a therapist cannot do the work for you, etc. You may have to

  • clarify to yourself what you want out of therapy first
  • determine whether or not that is realistic, rational, and healthy for you
  • seek a therapist who is actually helpful in meeting that.

It might not be the first therapists you try. YKWIM?

Galagirl
 
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Hi BreakTheSky,
Thanks for the additional info.

In case it will help, there's some links you can follow to look for more poly-friendly therapists:

And if a counselor is unfamiliar with poly, but willing to learn, ask them to read the book, "What Psychology Professionals Should Know about Polyamory," by Geri Weitzman, Ph.D., Joy Davidson, Ph.D., and Robert A. Phillips, Jr., Ph.D.

As for finding local poly groups, the following links may help:

Re (from BreakTheSky):
"How can you tell whether your behavior is reflecting your desire for NRE or whether it stems from a need for deeper fulfillment?"
Click to expand...

To an extent, NRE can be identified by when you make decisions on an emotional, not rational, basis. But it can be hard to recognize where NRE begins, and other thoughts/emotions end.

Re:
"From a few readings, I interpret that focusing on NRE can become dysfunctional because you're using people to get a feeling. Your thoughts?"
Click to expand...

NRE isn't a bad thing per se, but it can be mishandled. You have to exercise caution to make sure you're still giving your preexisting relationship/s due attention.

Hope that helps. Keep those questions coming.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
BreakTheSky said:
Sounds like my way of sorting through internal dilemma’s is to make them external. I put myself in situations (such as becoming more involved with Heather) that force me to deal with my internal issues.
Click to expand...

Just a response to this snippet:
Everyone does this. You've just described relationships. Every external relationship reflects who we are inside at every given moment.
 
Was this a cheating affair? And you have or have not told Klaire about it? I am confused.

I will assume you have told her and you both are healed from that already.

If not, I think you could come clean with Klaire. If not... It's weird to me this therapist seem to promote continuing lies of omission / step under rug rather than being more honest?
Click to expand...

Yes, it was a cheating affair. It's the only time I cheated on Klaire in our five years together but there have been other close calls. Every now and then you just have a real connections with someone that is more than ordinary. When that happens I don't want to hold back. I certainly don't want to cheat on her... however, I created an environment where that is highly likely... I suppressed my real desires and didn't communicate them to Klaire. After cheating I was filled to the brim with shame, guilt and low self-esteem. It's why I started seeing my therapist Uncle Dave again. He specifically told me to never tell Klaire because it would only cause her pain. I made sure to get tested for STI's and everything came back negative. The whole experience made me appreciate how much I love (not need) having her in my life. Uncle Dave told me to stop communicating with Heather, so I did.


If the goal is accepting your poly self, work on that then. Part of that could include you starting to talk about your authentic feelings with your wife. Share that emotional intimacy. What's holding you back from fully engaging with her?
Click to expand...

I guess if you look over our whole relationship I've been communicating that I have interest in other women to Klaire. We just never took the time to do anything about it... now that I'm more interested in action and we're actively discussing it on a deeper level, she has opened up that she would feel jealous. I asked her why. I think that stumped her. She asked me if I would be jealous and I said I would work hard not to be by focusing on the point that I have no control over her sexuality and that we should all feel free to express ourselves. She said that she wouldn't want to know about other women. I pressed her saying that that defeats the purpose of being open. If we love and support each other, then we should be fully aware of what our partner is doing. No secrets. No cheating. I think it made sense to her.

What are the group's thoughts on a tiered approach? And by that, I mean starting out slow. Going on a date with someone, holding holds, dancing, etc. but no sex at first so that we have time to communicate our feelings. Also, what is the best way to handle objections to these first steps?
 
BreakTheSky said:
Yes, it was a cheating affair. It's the only time I cheated on Klaire in our five years together but there have been other close calls. Every now and then you just have a real connections with someone that is more than ordinary. When that happens I don't want to hold back. I certainly don't want to cheat on her... however, I created an environment where that is highly likely... I suppressed my real desires and didn't communicate them to Klaire. After cheating I was filled to the brim with shame, guilt and low self-esteem. It's why I started seeing my therapist Uncle Dave again. He specifically told me to never tell Klaire because it would only cause her pain. I made sure to get tested for STI's and everything came back negative. The whole experience made me appreciate how much I love (not need) having her in my life. Uncle Dave told me to stop communicating with Heather, so I did.




I guess if you look over our whole relationship I've been communicating that I have interest in other women to Klaire. We just never took the time to do anything about it... now that I'm more interested in action and we're actively discussing it on a deeper level, she has opened up that she would feel jealous. I asked her why. I think that stumped her. She asked me if I would be jealous and I said I would work hard not to be by focusing on the point that I have no control over her sexuality and that we should all feel free to express ourselves. She said that she wouldn't want to know about other women. I pressed her saying that that defeats the purpose of being open. If we love and support each other, then we should be fully aware of what our partner is doing. No secrets. No cheating. I think it made sense to her.

What are the group's thoughts on a tiered approach? And by that, I mean starting out slow. Going on a date with someone, holding holds, dancing, etc. but no sex at first so that we have time to communicate our feelings. Also, what is the best way to handle objections to these first steps?
Click to expand...


I don't really know that I have enough experience yet to give an appropriate answer on those questions. Personally, I think it depends on each party that is involved and the relationship it brings. So long as everything is communicated honestly then there should be no reason for anyone to feel doubts or insecurities about the relationships.

I really just wanted to respond because I feel like I can relate to you quite a bit BreaktheSky. I've had a tendency to create really wonderful connections to people I feel close to. I've often times been in denial of these connections and it's only been recently that Zed has turned the tables and forced me to come to terms with that because he noticed my unhappiness. It wasn't like there was any sort of unfaithfulness there, simply that we accept that in our lives we will feel deeply connected to more than just each other.

Not sure if you know of this book but it's called More Than Two. It's a really fantastic resource for those that desire deeper connections in their poly relationships and has helped me come to terms with how to cope with various human issues, particularly ones with my partner's connections, aka my metamours.

My inbox is always open if you wanna talk anything out one on one about it. Jealousy was an issue that I had a brief struggle with in starting this that I would imagine is your partners biggest issue right now.
 
I am glad you tested clean. It solves health concerns of the body. One less thing to deal with.

But that doesn't solve the lies of omission stuff. That is still on the plate.

You don't get to feel proud of you if you are straying from your values and choosing poor behaviors. When you make those poor choices, you get to feel guilt/shame etc. Not fun to feel, but it's what gives you a clue that you could need to fly more true to your values because your behavior choices are leading you off course. Like a smoke alarm.

There's more in your relationship with Klaire than cooties. There could be integrity, trust, and other values that you want to maintain with her. I don't think leaving things out and leaving her in the dark helps you maintains them. :(

He specifically told me to never tell Klaire because it would only cause her pain.
Click to expand...

Uncle Dave does NOT sound like a very ethical therapist to me. I hope you fire him and move on to someone who helps you become your best authentic self. Not help you be a dishonest, skulking in the dark person. That's not going to feel good for you long term.

When you do lies of omission, Klaire is unable to give full consent.

Does Klaire care about being able to give full consent?
Do you care about you and your partners being able to give full consent?
Is sex something you consent to "share" together?
Is sex something you "get" from someone?

What are the group's thoughts on a tiered approach? And by that, I mean starting out slow. Going on a date with someone, holding holds, dancing, etc. but no sex at first so that we have time to communicate our feelings. Also, what is the best way to handle objections to these first steps?
Click to expand...

That sounds fine. Objections you solve by taking one at a time.

Maybe these worksheets help you.

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

But before you get to THAT set of conversations, I think could clear up the cheating thing. In the tiered approach, that would be the first tier to me. Clean up the old before starting a new.

Otherwise this doesn't wash:

If we love and support each other, then we should be fully aware of what our partner is doing. No secrets. No cheating. I think it made sense to her.
Click to expand...

If you are keeping a secret, you are not living up to that standard you are setting.

And if/when she finds out about it later... whoa. WAY worse than owning it NOW would be.

Because then instead of the single load of (cheated on me)... Which could be viewed as (made an honest mistake in judgement but was honest about it ASAP / maybe our agreements are not realistic for us) which could make is easier to digest...

It becomes (cheated on me) PLUS the extra bonus load of (talked about being "open and no secrets" while sitting on a big ol' secret!) Double whammy. That can be viewed as (Does whatever while lying to me and stringing me along.) Does not digest easily because it is not very loving or kind behavior. :(

I encourage you to clean up the old before asking if she's willing to start a new model with you. In that vein maybe this one helps you:

http://felislunae.org/relationships-love/coming-clean/

Galagirl
 
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I don't understand why you want to keep seeing Uncle Dave. He's got at least two dings working against him. But, I think you're determined to retain him, so I'm not going to try to argue about that.

Re (from BreakTheSky):
"What are the group's thoughts on a tiered approach? And by that, I mean starting out slow."
Click to expand...

Slow is good. :)

Re:
"Also, what is the best way to handle objections to these first steps?"
Click to expand...

You have to make a decision on how long you want to wait for your partner to accept things. In the meantime, you don't take any further steps until your partner says okay.
 
I believe Uncle Dave is following a not uncommon school of thought that says that if you cheated in the past, it is over and done with but you feel terrible about it, you cannot assuage your own feelings by telling your spouse. You just have to put up with feeling bad because you behaved badly and making the innocent party suffer so you can be relieved of guilt is selfish.I have seen this kind of advice given by syndicated columnists in the past. I am not endorsing this approach but I can see the logic of it if it was an aberration rather than a polyamorous person trying to repress themselves and failing. From the point of view that such a revelation would not improve the marriage but destroy an otherwise healthy relationship leaving the innocent spouse doubting their whole life, just because their spouse had a period of weakness since repented and amended, then it kind of makes sense. It might fall under the "Deal with your own feelings don't put them on someone else to deal with" idea. When a standard attitude in society is that if your spouse has an affair and you have an ounce of self respect, you kick their butt to the curb, the innocent spouse is placed in a terrible position.

Leetah
 
It doesn't sound like the distant past that the Heather thing ended/Uncle Dave therapy started. It sounds very recent. But I could be wrong. :confused:

Could you be willing to put some dates on to clarify the timeline, BreaktheSky?

  • Met Heather 6 years ago somewhere in 2009
  • Met Klaire in 2010 somewhere.
  • Started affair with Heather on ____.
  • Married Klaire Sept 2014.
  • Got STD screen on ___ and passed.
  • Started therapy with Uncle Dave again on ____.
  • Ended affair with Heather on ____.
  • Started talking to Klaire about poly on _____.
  • Start therapy with Maggie this week at the top of June 2015 with the goal of ____?

What's your desired outcome at this time for the appointment with Maggie? To help Klaire understand that there IS a problem here that she does not know about? To ask Kalire her willingness to participate in a polyship (whether she dates others herself or not)? Something else? Combo of things? :confused:

It's hard to give feedback without knowing at what point in the journey you are at now, and what point it is that you hope to get to.

Galagirl
 
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Break The Sky said he has cut off all contact with Heather on Uncle Dave's advice. He has not said if he is hoping to resume with Heather if Klaire would be Ok with it. However, Uncle Dave is indeed coming at this from a "monogamy is the only healthy relationship form" point of view. As BTS has realized he is not monogamous, I agree that trying to follow Uncle Dave's advice is going to make a mess.

Leetah
 
Actually, GalaGirl, some people have would argue very strongly that it is selfish and unethical to confess an affair that has ended and you have no plans to continue or replace. Some people do that purely to alleviate a guilty conscience. That is not helpful to the person who has been cheated on. Sometimes it is really more ethical to keep quiet and be a better partner.

In fact, I'd even say that even if you know from cheating that polyamory might be the way you should go, and you're not going to explore it with people you've cheated with, it's sometimes better to focus on getting consent for non monogamy than confess a past affair.
 
Yes. I know that some people find that approach ok. I do not. I would prefer to know so I can give continuing consent from a place of full info.

But I am not Klaire. I do not know what her preference is. That is why I ask how she feels about it. Then I would suggest BreakTheSky go with her preferences. Go with what is ethical for Klaire.

I assume a spouse would know what their wife's thoughts are about consent and continuing consent. Does she want full info or not?

Galagirl
 
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BreakTheSky said:
I went back to my therapist . . . After 8 visits, here is the summation of his advice:

. . . I should avoid pornography because it increases the level of sexual excitement necessary for arousal.
Click to expand...
I just wanted to respond to that one point above. There is a very informative website on the subject here, if you'd like to do a little reading: http://yourbrainonporn.com/
 
BreakTheSky said:
4. I should avoid pornography because it increases the level of sexual excitement necessary for arousal.
Click to expand...

This can't be said definitively for every person in every instance, but it's pretty safe to say that porn is to actual sex as Disney Princess movies are to actual relationships.
 
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