Introducing a mono couple to poly

Do you recognize that LO is a person, with her own rights and needs?
Yes.

Is your therapist always right? Do you rely on your therapist to always be right?
No. No.

When is it wrong to manipulate others?
I draw the line at force, fraud, undue influence (position of trust/vulnerable person). That is a bit of a cop out as it is a legal rather than a moral answer.

If I answer "when it could be harmful to them" that implies that I know what is in their best interests. I don't.
If I answer based on my intent, that would make manipulation "right" even though I was misguided about what would be good for me and the other person.
The sales type answer is when the product you are selling is going to deliver value, so your manipulations are actually helping the person help themselves by acquiring a product which provides equal or better value than the purchase price. Again this implies that I can quantify what is valuable to another, and that is likely wrong.

This is very sophomoric and it occurs to me that I don't have an answer. So back to the clear line of force, fraud, undue influence.

When is it okay to do so? You mentioned that it had helped you in professional areas.
When I'm willing to take the consequences of my actions - which might mean people feeling that I'm some sort of "smooth operator" and not wanting to interact with me.

Is it possible to be with LO without corrupting her?
I don't know. The sexual aspect is an interesting one. I'm not desperate to sleep with her. I'd probably be happy with a relationship "closer than friends" but perhaps with not much or any sex. If it naturally moved towards sex though I wouldn't want to feel restricted or guilty if we wanted to include that also.

I don't see monogamy as inherently virtuous or affairs as inherently corrupt. I see dishonesty as morally wrong. I wouldn't have a moral issue being with her provided there was no dishonesty/deception with others. Back to "fraud".

However, whose morality is more important? If it is immoral to her to have extramarital relations whether her husband is aware/consents or not, then in some senses trying to compromise someone elses' morality is immoral in itself...or is it? By what objective standard do we judge their morality? (e.g. capital punishment - we kill people to demonstrate that killing people is wrong)

What part does her husband play in it?
Ideally none. However no illicit relationship can be guaranteed to go undiscovered. And it would likely affect the dynamics of their relationship. So this isn't an option.

Don't ask don't tell open marriage? I'd still feel like we were keeping secrets.

So he knows about us. Strangely I think I'd be comfortable with that. I'd like him to trust me and know that I respect their family unit. It is somewhat involuntary that I've come to have feelings for his wife. Ideally he would be open to his wife and I spending time together and expressing our feelings for each other. I wouldn't want the new relationship to diminish the quality of his marriage in any way...and in fact I do wonder if it would be enhanced.

Is his consent needed?
I don't think either of us would want the pressure of an affair, or the dishonesty/betrayal. So yes. That is definite and not negotiable.

If she decides to cheat on her husband, does that compel you to cheat with her?
No, but I probably would. I don't think she'd decide that. I wouldn't want to do that. And I'd find her considerably less attractive if she was willing. Untrustworthy. Okay, so I've learned that I definitely want her husband to consent.

Can you introduce someone to the idea of poly without manipulating them?
Yes, if you had no investment in the outcome / no agenda. If you want them to open their marriage in order that you can have a relationship with one of them I think that is manipulative. Back to whether this is a moral issue...
 
You raised a number of interesting questions in your post. I like the one about capital punishment (which I'm opposed to by the way).

You said you were adept at manipulation. Do you think you could "manipulate" LO's husband into accepting the poly dynamic with you in it? Would that be a moral use of the ability to manipulate? Is it authentic consent if he was manipulated into it?

It is interesting that you say you wouldn't want to cheat with her, yet you would probably do it if she wanted to. How would you explain that dichotomy?
 
Do you think you could "manipulate" LO's husband into accepting the poly dynamic with you in it?

Anything possible, but I'm probably more likely to fail.
Presently, there is nothing in it for him.

Here are my initial thoughts on ways it might work. They are all contingent on his wife enthusiastically desiring this arrangement of course.

#1. If he was unable to sexually satisfy his wife, in the last resort this would excuse him from the pressure to perform and potentially allow him to avoid any resulting feelings of inadequacy. Equally if there is a sex drive mismatch or he no longer finds her particularly attractive. Less investment and less resistance to sharing. Potential benefits to him through his wife's improved mood.

#2. If his wife had fallen for me, couldn't control her feelings, and was miserable about her inability to act on them due to his withholding consent. If she can achieve this state, he is likely to consent through compassion/love if he has tried and failed to "reform" her. Trusting her to only ever have me as an "outside" relationship and not neglect her marriage. This approach would very much depend on his trusting me, and perhaps even liking me to an extent...which is something I'd have to do first.

#3. If the three of us became very close friends, spent lots of time together, and it naturally evolved from there. At the minimum this would require that he liked me, and would probably be aided by any repressed homosexuality on his part. I don't see this as realistic as he probably doesn't like me and I've found it difficult to find any common ground with him.

#4. If he were insecure about himself and felt validated by other men desiring HIS wife. I don't think this applies here, but I've often pondered if this dynamic is playing out in "cuckold" type relationships.

#5. Most likely to achieve (reluctant, likely resentful) compliance. Positioning polyamory as a distinct sexual orientation and then harnessing the techniques used to bring other alternative sexualities into the mainstream. Casting those who disagree, even spouses, as being somehow benevolently misguided (in a patronising way), archaic, and hinting at bigotry. Emphasising the involuntary nature of attraction and how biological differences may predispose certain individuals to poly tendencies. Not allowing his wife to express her true identity makes him a repressive sex-negative hetronormative polyphobic bigot. Narrow minded. Doesn't befit a man of his intellect and sophistication. This is probably the most powerful lever I have. His self-esteem will be tied to his intellect and it will be difficult for him to argue from an emotional rather than logical position. He'll see expressing his feelings as a weakness.

#All approaches
He will also be more inclined to consent if he can be first exposed to people with whom he identifies and likes who are openly poly.

It seems that, if properly executed,either 2 or 5 will work. If he has the appropriate emotional depth and strength of character which I'd like to think he has, he'll support his wife's sincere desires if 2 applies. If he is weak, 5 will suffice.
 
Would that be a moral use of the ability to manipulate?
If she and I were happy in our new relationship and he was positive or netural about it, then I see no harm. This isn't quite answering the question unless we define the morality of an action by the utility of its consequences - that is a very blunt instrument and we could easily find examples which would show it to be absurd. (crap like whether to torture someone who we estimate has a 40% chance of telling the whereabouts of a bomb which will, if undiscovered, kill 50 people and maim dozens more)

Is it authentic consent if he was manipulated into it?
I'd tend to say yes absent force, fraud, or undue influence.
However witnessing my approach to trying to answer your question - could he be manipulated and if so how - has horrified me. I don't think there is anything authentic about guiding someone down a path so that they will predictably choose the outcome you have predetermined for them; and not resist you (as you probably deserve) because you have co-opted their free will and they erroneously believe they had a choice. This is the morality of the "two party system" in politics, where in many cases the distinction is either superficial or entirely artificial.

Perhaps its high time I stopped (undeservedly) thinking of myself as a nice / ethical person and accept that I'm prepared to consider the same (effective) dirty tricks that others use if it helps me get my own way. I don't think self-honesty where this is concerned will do me any harm. And it might even lead to more frequent realisations that just because I could do something and the outcome might please me, it doesn't mean that I should.

It occurs that I might be amoral, but pretending otherwise in order to maintain my self-esteem.

It is interesting that you say you wouldn't want to cheat with her, yet you would probably do it if she wanted to. How would you explain that dichotomy?

I think I just did! I suppose I've classified that as a sub-optimal yet acceptable outcome. If likelihood of discovery was low enough (which I think I could and nearly did almost engineer, but don't want to give details).

It compromises the net utility as we would both feel stress and guilt, which makes it far less than optimal, and the relationship would likely be shorter lasting. The perceived higher consequences might also prevent me gaining her cooperation, which is the true reason why I think cheating is a bad idea.
 
Re:
"... whether to torture someone who we estimate has a 40% chance of telling the whereabouts of a bomb which will, if undiscovered, kill 50 people and maim dozens more ..."
Click to expand...

Oh hells, that's a devilish dilemma. I want to say never torture anyone no matter what, but then I can't logically justify that in this case.

Now, is it possible to be immoral at heart, yet simultaneously want to be moral, and do moral acts? Do the moral acts suffice by themselves, despite the person's heart not being in it? What if the person only does the moral acts in order to boost his self-esteem?

Re: cheating ... is acceptable as long as you can make it work and avoid discovery? (That's a bold position.)
 
I nearly took that silly example out as I didn't want to distract from the rest of the message! Was just making a point about the fallacy of argument from consequences.

No, I don't think cheating is acceptable. I wouldn't be fulfilled in that sort of relationship.

I've now moved the goalposts from an affair to consensual poly. Even harder. Glutton for punishment, attempting the "impossible"....this gives more credence to the repetition compulsion theory.

The more interesting question to me is how I'd cope with failure/rejection. Very invested in this for some reason. Which is also a warning sign.
 
How can you prepare yourself for the rejection that you'll prospectively experience?
 
kdt26417 said:
How can you prepare yourself for the rejection that you'll prospectively experience?
Click to expand...

The surface stuff, basic arguments against inertia:
"you miss 100% of the shots you don't take"
"you already don't have the job"
etc

That is BS though. My self esteem seems to be at risk. Warning sign.
Rejection is possibly what I'm seeking on a subconscious level (repetition compulsion again).

Back to my childhood where I believed that my self worth was proportional to my ability to meet the needs of others. And that if others were sad, anxious, or violent I had somehow failed.

"Not getting my own way" on a deeper level means not being able to regulate the emotions of my parents, which means that I'm probably going to get punished, rejected, or abused. I'm not safe. So I'll do almost anything to try and get my own way. And if it doesn't work I'm likely to keep trying. I never matured out of that. I'm actively seeking ways - even just in thought experiments - to demonstrate to myself that this is no longer a suitable coping mechanism in adulthood.

Rather than accept that there would need to be a constellation of multiple extremely unlikely conditions in force for this to be successful and that it is a "long shot", I'm likely to take rejection extremely personally. Despite the obvious truth that most people in closed marriages are not going to do poly with anyone.

I think a worthwhile goal would be to get to the stage where I could cope with failure and rejection in a healthier way.

[it occurs that I'm constantly testing my environment to see if I can manipulate, if I'm in control, therefore if I can feel safe - low level stuff. but also I'll seek out intermittently some very large but personally significant challenges...and fixate on completing them. this is another example.]
 
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kdt26417 said:
How can you prepare yourself for the rejection that you'll prospectively experience?
Click to expand...

Better answer: get to the core of what the rejection represents. Deal with those unresolved issues. Until I can see it as an ordinary rejection which I can cope with, not take too personally, etc. I'm nowhere near ready to attempt this until I can healthily handle the prospective consequences...starting with the most likely: rejection.
 
Well the least I can say is that you are directly facing your baggage from the past, and for that I think you deserve kudos. Now that doesn't mean you have an easy path ahead of you, it just means that you know what the path is.
 
I don't think it's wrong or manipulative to introduce a couple to poly with the hopes it will enable you to date one of them. They are adults and can think for themselves. How else can you get what you want other than asking? Admittedly it could really blow up their marriage but if marriages are so fucking fragile that the mere introduction to poly can destroy them, then it wasn't very strong to begin with.
 
That's a good point, graviton.
 
graviton said:
I don't think it's wrong or manipulative to introduce a couple to poly with the hopes it will enable you to date one of them. They are adults and can think for themselves. How else can you get what you want other than asking? Admittedly it could really blow up their marriage but if marriages are so fucking fragile that the mere introduction to poly can destroy them, then it wasn't very strong to begin with.
Click to expand...

I tend to think many, if not most, MF marriages ARE on shaky ground. lol

Men and women are so different. We think differently, act differently, interact with our own sex differently. Women (by and large) can multitask more effectively, ID our emotions more readily, act upon our emotions in very different ways, sense more in our surroundings, we are more drawn to prettiness and cuteness.

Testosterone causes men to be much more violent. Women do not start wars, and women fighting, raping, and murdering are far more rare.

I am speaking as a woman in a full time live-in relationship with a woman. I feel our partnership is much more solid that the one I had with my ex husband ever was. And the things my friends tell me about their husbands/bfs! Things women would never do.

But since I am bi, I understand how powerfully drawn to each other the sexes are. Sexually. I just don't think men and women (in general) do all that great trying to live together one on one. I think of what is common in Latino culture, where a baby daddy comes along, gets someone pregnant, sooner or later leaves for the next woman, and his baby gets raised by his ex gf and her female relatives, or even his next gf.

These are just examples of how poorly (heteronormative) men and women get along trying to live together. So, is it "immoral" to act in ways that might threaten a not so stable marriage? I think we are all immoral a bit under the skin. Kids are born raging balls of Id, and it takes a lot of socialization (mostly from female relatives) to get them to learn to think of others and use manners. And this is an imperfect process, and often undermined in boys by their male relatives!
 
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