Just Married, Now Probably Over

If both are willing to go to counseling, then yes. Try it.

Is how he talks triggering or the whole idea of marriage and being someone's spouse triggering? Or both?

If he had said "we have a shared marriage. What you do affects me and the shared marriage too. I would like a say in decisions that impact me and the shared marriage."

Would that have been as triggering?

Maybe something to bring up in counseling?

Galagirl
 
How he talks is triggering. The idea of marriage isn't triggering in and of itself, but I thought I had made it clear to him before we got married that marriage means something quite different to me than the traditional views of what marriage is. He seemed as if he accepted this and didn't have a problem with it, but then after the marriage his actions tell me he had a lot more traditional expectations about it, even though I had told him I wouldn't promise tokens of exclusivity to him (other than the marriage itself since legally I can't do more than one). The two words "my wife" have been the most triggering, since it feels dehumanizing and feels like I've been reduced to a role, rather than a person. He has apologized for the use of those words like that, but I do want to have discussions with him about why his impulse was to use them that way in the first place. It is unsettling to me to feel like a piece of property.

We have been talking about how each of our own behaviors and decisions are impacting the relationship. On his end, he feels stretched because he has always struggled with insecurity. On my end, I feel stretched because I feel like any relationship I've gotten involved in since we opened up has been fraught with his anxiety and I feel like I have been compromising the whole way along trying to increase his comfort. I have stated a while back as well that I have trouble investing a lot into his processing if he is in a self-destructive spiral. His use of cannabis and alcohol to escape and not deal with issues is frustrating and draining to me. I have noticed that his anxiety level is even higher when he uses these things, because they sap his motivation to socialize and take care of his own physical, mental, and emotional health. When he triggers while engaging in these behaviors, it feels to me like he is putting the entire burden of his mental and emotional health on me, and that he isn't willing to hold up his end of the stick.

I'm willing to work with him and I'm certainly willing and able to put effort into this relationship. That is a thing that I promised and meant by marriage. I just need R to be a teammate with me. I can't pull the sled alone while he is sitting on it. I get exhausted. I need him to pull together with me, and I have not felt like that is happening when it comes to dealing with his jealousy. He has had some improvements in the past year. I don't want to sell him short. But generally when he approaches me with feelings of jealousy or insecurity, it feels like he is asking me to simply stop doing whatever is making him uncomfortable, regardless of how it impacts me, rather than trying to find a solution to increase his confidence and comfort without restricting me at every turn.
 
Traditional programming trains us to have some warped perspectives. A couple of examples are,

  • feeling jealous is a sign of love,
  • "my wife" is a loving thing to say.
You are having reactions that are opposite to what he's probably been trained to expect. He was probably taught to expect "his wife" to be thankful for those kinds of behaviors on his part. It is hard for many people to overturn their traditional upbringing, and I am thinking that he finds the task to be overwhelming. Hence his escapism into the crutches of alcohol and cannabis.

If you guys have to break up I hope you can do so amicably. It does sound hopeful right now that you might be able to work things out, but I guess we'll have to see.
 
I get some of that, although I think at this point he knows for certain that I don't value his jealous behaviors. We've been together going on 6 years now. I told him sometime last fall that I was done dealing with having drama every single time I wanted to take a step with a new partner or a further step with any existing partner that wasn't him. I recognize his right to his feelings, but I was tired of being emotionally extorted with them to keep me from doing the things I want to do.

Not too many other recent developments yet. I'm struggling with some ups and downs. R has been reaching out to a lot of mono friends or poly friends in pretty rigid primary-secondary models, and I'm hearing a lot of myself being called selfish and uncompromising through those grapevines. I guess it's probably my fault for setting my baseline so far into being oriented to the happiness of others that when I do finally say there's something that's really important to me it's easy for it to seem like I'm being totally unreasonable. I also don't tend to make a spectacle of myself when I do compromise, whereas R is always very loud and clear about all the "things he does for me." I don't want to compare. I did the things I did for him because I wanted to, because I love him. I've always told him not to do things for me that he can't live with. Just feeling kind of beaten and worn down today. :-(
 
I should say that I don't mean to excuse his attitudes and behaviors. He's being stubborn because he had these big plans of how marriage was going to make you "see the light."

It may or may not be worth trying to see this thing through with him. Part of it depends how selfish he is on a deep-down level.
 
Like I said, old marriage ideals and disrespectful to you up to now from what has been described.
Just clean break now, imo you're just dragging it out.
 
R and I have set a date of September 5th where we aren't going to initiate any breakups between now and then and will focus on trying to make the relationship work. We are also tabling the specific discussion between me and J unless either of us has a massive change of heart in the meantime.

Seeking counseling, making plans to perhaps use an empathogen together to facilitate a discussion with a sober friend and mediator. R has indicated that he might want J to have an STD test and that it might help him to feel better and this is something I would be comfortable asking for and think is fairly reasonable. If I ask J to do this, I will do it as well.

Trying to use the time not focusing on the specific issue with J to dig more into what is causing R's insecurities and other ways I can help, dealing with R's family stress. In the midst of all this it looks like my mind is starting to process some sexual difficulties and anxieties that I'd been repressing. Life is fun all around.
 
Had first counseling appointment today, and hopefully another next Wednesday, but the psychologist isn't available again after that until September 18th.

R has taken away his request about my first time with J being with condoms, and has even told me I don't have to wait a month if I don't want, but that he wants to see clean STD test results from J, which I will be asking for probably tomorrow.

R and I are working on some other things right now. We had a bit of an argument this weekend because R has complained that we don't do special things together anymore, so I suggested we go on a date together to a local brewhouse we've been eyeballing for months after I got off work on Saturday. I came home and changed really quick because I only had an hour between when I got off work and when the reservation was. R made the reservation, and even with being home all day while I was at work I was still ready to go on time and he was not and made us late for the reservation. He had also smoked again that day and it was causing his attention to drift and get caught up in his cell phone when we sat down and take forever to figure out his order even though I was really hungry.

I talked to him a little bit about how hurtful that is to me. He tells me that he wants me to work on our relationship and invest time and attention to him, so I do, only for him to not show up to the table at all. R says he is feeling attacked about smoking and I told him it wouldn't be such a problem if he could smoke AND pay attention to things like what I am telling him, my body language cues, and meeting the agreements he has made. When he is not paying attention and making me do all the work to foster the relationship, I do not feel like investing as much anymore to help it grow. I can manage without a lot of his time or attention, but I will not keep up a one-sided relationship where I put a lot of energy into working on things where he complains when he isn't getting something he wants and then doesn't try to meet me in the middle or work as a team.
 
Sounds pretty frustrating. He probably didn't set out to shortchange you on purpose, he's just acting a little clueless about the relationship. Like, he sort of knows he wants it to be something more, something better, but it's not occurring to him that he needs to do some work to make that happen too.
 
I talked to him a little bit about how hurtful that is to me. He tells me that he wants me to work on our relationship and invest time and attention to him, so I do, only for him to not show up to the table at all.
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He could wear a condom when he has sex with you. His penis is under his management. He does not manage J's penis. Asking for STD tests of you and J is healthy. He could do his own also. That's good this sex bit is sorting/sorted out.

He is attending counseling. That's good.

He said he wanted a special time with you. He made the reservation. That's good.

He went on the date with you. How is all that not showing up to the table? :confused:

You were rushing home from work. To minimize rushing, you could not tell him your best times for him to reserve?

I think you were mad about the rushing and anxious being late for the reservation. So you took it out on him. And it opened the floodgates to other resentments and angers and WHOOSH!

HALT -- hungy, angry/anxious, lonely, tired. One does not do serious relationship talks when HALT.

I am not saying the guy is perfection, but I see you launching into serious relationships talks rather than doing HALT here.

If you have blood sugar wiggies, you are not able to plan/get a snack before you leave? Just be ok being late? Stop at a gas station for a banana? Call ahead and change the reservation? Lots of ways to deal with hunger related irritability that are not "sail into my partner."

I wonder if he smokes to help him escape dealing with fears or problems dealing with porcupine you? Does he? :( I am not saying that is the best coping tool ever, because you are right in that it can make him less alert and doesn't help with the couple problems. Self medicating or escapism isn't the answer. But maybe something to think about? If you do not want to be with a smoker, why are you with a smoker? That's on you, not him.

If you are done here, BE done. If you have secret resentments about going on a date with him when you really don't want to be on a date or the marriage? Don't go on the date. End things. So both can have peace already.

If you want to be with him, be with him and plan your life accordingly. Dude's a slow mover. Plan in the "buffer time" so he slow moving doesn't bug you so much. Could you not call him as you leave work to say "I'm leaving work now. Be there in about 30 min. It is really important to me to leave on time. I wanted to call ahead to give you a heads up that I am on my way so you can have time to get ready. " if he doesn't esp value punctuality but you do.

If you want to be with him, look at what he IS doing to help. Not this "all or nothing" black and white thinking saying he's not even showing up to the table. He is doing some things. Might still not be enough for you. But he's not doing NOTHING.

He probably feels attacked because... you ARE attacking. This is supposed to be a date. Not serious relationship talk. You do not HALT. Counseling appointments are the place for detonating/releasing all that pent up anger more safely. Not there on a date in some brewhouse.

There's going to be a learning curve. If you don't want to invest in that, that's is fine. Get out now. Stop dragging it out.

But if you are on the learning curve, be ok BEING on the learning curve. Own your part of co-creating these situations. You are gonna be making it steeper climb for BOTH of you if you do not HALT. :(

I mean that kindly. I see you guys are struggling big time... but escalating things isn't the answer. :(

If you are going to stick with this and go to another counseling session, you could bring all this up and ask the counselor for help with your transitional agreements to make sure they are realistic, doable, etc. Maybe help you with emotional management and HALT.

Galagirl
 
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GalaGirl said:
He could wear a condom when he has sex with you. His penis is under his management. He does not manage J's penis. Asking for STD tests of you and J is healthy. He could do his own also. That's good this sex bit is sorting/sorted out.

He is attending counseling. That's good.

He said he wanted a special time with you. He made the reservation. That's good.

He went on the date with you. How is all that not showing up to the table? :confused:
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You are right. I should not be minimizing the work that he is doing. He is doing more to show up to the table and tonight actually did something very meaningful for me. He asked me to be brutally honest with him about how I felt about some things. I asked what he meant and he said to really just say how I feel. I started talking about some of the things that are causing me pain/making me anxious and he started defending and justifying, but after I said "let me just say how I feel right now," he seemed to relax and let me get the hurt off my chest so we could talk about it and work with it. I think this is something both of us could get better at allowing each other.

GalaGirl said:
You were rushing home from work. To minimize rushing, you could not tell him your best times for him to reserve?
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I didn't mind the rushing so much, as I told him that time was fine. I was ready to go in time to get out the door to the place, but R had decided to start putting together and burning a CD that he wanted to listen to in the car, and that extra ten minutes he spent playing around with it made us late. The lateness thing is triggering to me because it is something we've talked about before. I do try to text ahead and tell him to be ready to go on time when I can, but I did not think it would be an issue this time since he was home all day and had more than plenty time to be ready to go.

GalaGirl said:
I think you were mad about the rushing and anxious being late for the reservation. So you took it out on him. And it opened the floodgates to other resentments and angers and WHOOSH!

HALT -- hungy, angry/anxious, lonely, tired. One does not do serious relationship talks when HALT.

I am not saying the guy is perfection, but I see you launching into serious relationships talks rather than doing HALT here.
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This is something I will start to monitor within myself, knowing when I am not in a good place for effective communication. I know both R and I tend to be the kind of people that have trouble setting things aside and not picking at them. I will bring this up to him as something we can both practice with. In the past, we have not been successful in this, perhaps an area for growth.

GalaGirl said:
If you have blood sugar wiggies, you are not able to plan/get a snack before you leave? Just be ok being late? Stop at a gas station for a banana? Call ahead and change the reservation? Lots of ways to deal with hunger related irritability that are not "sail into my partner."
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In any case other than when we are headed right to dinner, I usually do this. I had intentionally tried to work up a little bit of an appetite because R and I are both generally very small eaters and I wanted to be able to go in with a strong appetite to enjoy the meal. I keep a bag of mixed nuts in my purse for this very reason, but I didn't want to spoil my appetite before we go to a relatively expensive restaurant where I am going to want to eat and enjoy the food fresh instead of bringing it all home as leftovers.

GalaGirl said:
I wonder if he smokes to help him escape dealing with fears or problems dealing with porcupine you? Does he? :( I am not saying that is the best coping tool ever, because you are right in that it can make him less alert and doesn't help with the couple problems. Self medicating or escapism isn't the answer. But maybe something to think about? If you do not want to be with a smoker, why are you with a smoker? That's on you, not him.
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He was a habitual smoker even before we started dating. It is something that triggers me now, but it didn't always. From what I'm able to notice, porcupine me comes out much stronger when there is smoking than when there is not. When R is high he is much less aware of my body language and tone of voice cues and acts inappropriately goofy or tries to tickle or act goofy/sexual even persisting sometimes with these kinds of behaviors even after I get angry and make it clear I'd like it to stop. I do not mind being with a smoker. What I am struggling with is that I do not wish to be as engaged with him when he is high all the time. From time to time I enjoy smoking with him recreationally, but not this all day every day constant stupor thing. I had made that choice and disengaged to a point where I was comfortable, now R is saying he wants me to be more engaged and I am having trouble doing so with the behaviors while smoking. I am working on negotiating specifics of this with him. I have made the request that if he and I have a date together that he does not smoke beforehand and this seems like something he is willing to do. I will be clear beforehand what I consider to be a date and not make him guess.

GalaGirl said:
If you are done here, BE done. If you have secret resentments about going on a date with him when you really don't want to be on a date or the marriage? Don't go on the date. End things. So both can have peace already.
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I did not resent going on the date with him. I was actually really looking forward to it. I think I was surprised by feeling hurt/rejected when R is playing with his phone the minute we sit down at the table and not engaging and enjoying me on the date as he has been asking for more of my attention. It does hurt me to be ignored too, and perhaps I had been swallowing that for a long time without realizing that was what was going on. My first mode of operation is change myself before changing my environment. So I suppose this has been a long time of feeling hurt by being ignored and rejected, so I change my expectations and investment. This isn't done as a resentment or punishment, but from a place of me sincerely wanting to keep the good parts of the relationship and recognizing that R doesn't owe me time or affection, so I change myself in ways that reflect what he is giving me at the moment. I think this is something I need to personally work on, perhaps, standing up for things I want or at least being more clear when I am changing myself and have a discussion about that before I commit to that plan of action.

GalaGirl said:
If you want to be with him, be with him and plan your life accordingly. Dude's a slow mover. Plan in the "buffer time" so he slow moving doesn't bug you so much. Could you not call him as you leave work to say "I'm leaving work now. Be there in about 30 min. It is really important to me to leave on time. I wanted to call ahead to give you a heads up that I am on my way so you can have time to get ready. " if he doesn't esp value punctuality but you do.

If you want to be with him, look at what he IS doing to help. Not this "all or nothing" black and white thinking saying he's not even showing up to the table. He is doing some things. Might still not be enough for you. But he's not doing NOTHING.
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I have been working around his lateness tendencies. It seems to help to give him a time by which I want to walk out the door, because then there is a concrete goal that can then be looked at as having been accomplished or not. I lapsed in this because my (incorrect) judgment of the circumstances was that it probably wouldn't be an issue this time (him having all day at home and being the one to set the reservation time). I am going to start focusing more on some of the good that he is doing. I think a lot of my thinking in this way is an adversarial reaction to a lot of his earlier statements surrounding our relationship the past few weeks. He has been framing it in similar ways where I am the one that doesn't do any work and he doesn't get anything out of the relationship and he does all the compromising. I will make an effort to tone that down significantly. It isn't helping.

GalaGirl said:
He probably feels attacked because... you ARE attacking. This is supposed to be a date. Not serious relationship talk. You do not HALT. Counseling appointments are the place for detonating/releasing all that pent up anger more safely. Not there on a date in some brewhouse.

There's going to be a learning curve. If you don't want to invest in that, that's is fine. Get out now. Stop dragging it out.

But if you are on the learning curve, be ok BEING on the learning curve. Own your part of co-creating these situations. You gonna be making it steeper climb for BOTH of you if you do not HALT. :(
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This is really good advice. We both struggle with this and are not entirely effective. I will try to think of a way to practice this and put it into motion.

GalaGirl said:
I mean that kindly. I see you guys are struggling big time... but escalating things isn't the answer. :(

If you are going to stick with this and go to another counseling session, you could bring all this up and ask the counselor for help with your transitional agreements to make sure they are realistic, doable, etc.

Galagirl
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I'm really impressed with the counselor so far. He gives a much better vibe than the one we saw a few years ago and R agrees. He seems to be very thorough background-wise, so for a second meeting I'm not sure we'll get down to the nitty gritty on actual action items, but I will pay attention during our session to see if this is something I can ask for if there is time. Thank you very much Galagirl. Your thinking and advice is appreciated.
 
kdt26417 said:
Sounds pretty frustrating. He probably didn't set out to shortchange you on purpose, he's just acting a little clueless about the relationship. Like, he sort of knows he wants it to be something more, something better, but it's not occurring to him that he needs to do some work to make that happen too.
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I think you are right on this. I know there is not malicious intent and that is what makes it harder to confront it.
 
You are welcome. I notice when you have had some time and are no longer HALT you can articulate places where you could change your behaviors (you calling ahead when you leave work so he has time to be ready) and places where you can ask for changes in his behavior that he might be willing to do (do not smoke when we have a date planned, cel phones off during a date).

If both of you struggle with listening and not getting defensive and not lashing out, HALT might be something for both to work on. Talk to counselor about this. It was good you asked without losing your temper for him to please let you finish expressing how you feel before going into what he feels. Learning to LISTEN all the way first is something both could improve. Sounds like both are willing to try but sometimes it is hit or miss because one or the other or both are fearful or angry and that books communiaction.

You guys are in a fragile time. Could put emphasis on what you value most. I would hope you value the relationship more than fancy dinner. So if something must be sacrificed in the moment, eat the purse nuts, call ahead. Hold up your side of the stick so you can go into the date with good attitude and increase odds of it being a good date.

He has to do his end of things to come to the date in ng good attitude. But you do yours. Even if you do not get to eat as much fresh. It isn't like you cannot make another date to eat more fresh fancy meal later.

Could change this attitude:

This isn't done as a resentment or punishment, but from a place of me sincerely wanting to keep the good parts of the relationship and recognizing that R doesn't owe me time or affection
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I observe you sometimes have this "all or nothing" tendency sometimes.

No, He does not owe you things all the time. But by the time he has asked for a date and made a reservation and you both are at the date he does owe you some things. He could give you some polite (put the phone away) and some being PRESENT. That is why you made the date, right?

You could learn to ask for that up front and in neutral tone. ("Do you need a minute to wrap up the phone first? Because I would like you to be present. I can go ahead and order if you need a minute.")

Rather than going into shut down mode or lashing out mode and triggering the backload of other stuff that bugs you. More middle path, less extreme ends. You also owe him some things on a date... Like HALT. Manage your feelings and do not blow up in restaurant.

I think the relationship could use more of those dates that go well and less dates that turn into blow outs.

Hang in the there.

Galagirl
 
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It looks like this is going to be irreconcilable. We've been to counseling over the past few months. My sex drive deteriorated in the face of all this drama (as well as many complex issues in the past of R rejecting me over extended periods of time) and R started getting really pressuring and indicating that if our sex life wasn't satisfactory to him or that if I was doing things with other people that I wasn't willing to do with him, then he doesn't consider our relationship a real relationship.

I've come to the realization over the past few months that I have a problem with codependency. I'm learning to set boundaries and maintain them, even in the face of bargaining and wishy-washy behavior out of R. This has been a repeated pattern, where he says he doesn't want a thing, but then ends up giving in and pretending to be okay with it so he doesn't lose me, and then gets angry with me later at how I'm "forcing" him to deal with how I want to do poly when I have told him repeatedly not to agree to something he can't live with.

I'm hoping for an amicable friendship, although I worry this might not be a possibility. R and I are getting along well now and not fighting, but it seems like he just got past the first round of denial this past weekend. He is still wearing his wedding band, and I have not since October 8th, when we had an argument that led me to choose to move into the other bedroom and not move back since.

I am hunting for full time work right now or another part time job to supplement the one I have. Fortunately, we did not tie in together a whole lot of things like insurance when we got married, since the trouble started fairly early. It will leave less wreckage to clean when we finally do the legal separation thing.

He has been my best friend for 6 years, and it is going to be weird moving forward in life without him by my side to come home to at night. But this feels right. I've had anxiety problems since college and since making the decision to separate, the anxiety seems to be gone for periods of time. It had been a near constant for years. Having it disappear for days at a time is a huge deal, especially given that I am dealing with a breakup, the return of an ex of mine from deployment and seeing him for the first time since breaking up, uncertainty about my financial security, and lots and lots of responsibilities tied to my community band and local poly community.

If R and I are to resume any type of relationship, I think companionship is all I want. I have come to the realization that I've been stifling and squelching my sexual drive and living with constant unmet needs in that area for years because of R being unwilling or unable to meet them on his own and then using his jealousy and insecurity to manipulate me into almost never exploring in that capacity in any kind of way that felt natural. I do not think he and I have the ability at this time to have a healthy sexual relationship. He has a lot of expectations and insecurity tied up in sex, and I don't want to be accountable to him for who I am being sexual with. I don't think this is something he will want. Either way, I think it is best if we don't live together. This whole thing needs to be broken down. It isn't salvageable. If we come back together, we will need to build a fresh start where I can establish my boundaries from the get go and firmly enforce them if I sense any kind of creeping entitlement.

He needs to go pursue his dream of the white picket fence and babies and a wife that takes his name and carrying on his family name. I cannot fulfill that dream, and I am tired of having it attached to me despite repeated refusals to agree to it.

I'm in therapy on my own and it seems to be helping. Really the biggest worry or concern at this point is making sure I can earn enough money to support myself. I'd like to move out as soon as possible. I've been applying for a number of things, but haven't been successful as of yet. I have another interview tomorrow. I may have to lower the standards here shortly and go for whatever I can as long as it is full time and offers benefits. Otherwise, I'm doing really well. I'm taking care of myself, getting exercise, getting sleep, eating well for the most part. I feel like the weight I've been carrying around on my chest all my life is starting to lift.
 
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Sounds like you're in the process of making the decision that makes sense. R has had a fantasy about a relationship between you and him that just cannot be.
 
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