Kevin's Hetero MFM Poly-Fi V

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Thanks guys ... :) ... I'm sure the muse will strike me with yet another text block (or three) soon ... :cool:
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Poly Imbalance? Dexter Finale? Part 1 of 2.

Okay ... two bloggy bloggings to share, one all about poly, and one not one whit poly. Ah, the guilty pleasures of being the OP.

First: I've been asked a time or three lately, what on earth do I (and Brother-Husband) get out of being (one of) the males in a vanilla hetero MFM Vee? Both males get ripped off. The female getteth two male hotties (we are so hot); each male hottie getteth only half a female hottie (she's smoken').

Sometime in 2007 or 2008, I said almost exactly that to her. "You have two husbands. I only have half a wife." I said it because she was struggling with the idea of me searching for a new girlfriend or two on the internet. I was really feeling the sting of the time I did not get to spend with her. Well when I put it that way she admitted I had a point, and finally agreed to be okay with it as long as I totally kept her in the loop whenever something romantic might be springing up from the date site earth in my life.

I was glad for this newfound freedom to seek out some extra female attention. And, I tried. I really did. Too much so, in fact, I think.

At first I was just looking at generic dating sites. Oooh that got awful. The best response I could get (when admitting my poly status -- and I always did right away) was, "I'm sorry, but I'm just not interested in that." The worst I got was, "You fleabag! Stop this selfish womanizing and be the man that your woman deserves!" Yuck yuck yuck ... Lucky for me, I then found out about OKCupid and was thus able to greatly upgrade.

Well you know. Still not sayin' much. Probably the best thing that came out of it was a lady in Santa Fe who kindly conversed with me as a platonic friend for several months. She wasn't poly and wasn't looking for romance, even though she was feeling restless in her marriage and I think just wanted someone to talk to. So that was nice.

But beyond that, I just didn't find much interest out there, platonically or romantically. Oh I suppose I didn't give it long enough, though it sure seemed like a long time to me. And maybe my sense of urgency and lack of self-confidence bled through, no matter how many band-aids I plugged it with. Heck, Snowbunny helped to no end, giving suggestions on how to improve my profile and giving honest feedback about the messages I sent out. It got to the point where she admitted she couldn't understand why I wasn't garnering any significant interest.

Oh sure I was able to exchange messages with a few people for a little while, but it always fizzled. Something about getting to know me better convinced these lovely ladies that I wasn't that great of a catch. Or they found something better? Who knows.

And those are the highlights of my online "dating" experience. Now we get to the not-so-hot of experiences. The castigation I received -- yes even on OKC -- for being poly. The fakey ID's being used by "American supermodels" who were actually desperate third-world not-so-supermodels looking for a way into my ID, pocketbook, and person to be thrown into prison in their own land if they could lead me along that far. For those who've missed out on the joy of dating-site con artists, I can testify that they come out of the woodwork like roaches, as plentiful as spammers are (the vast majority of which we don't see because the mods nip them in the bud) on forums like Pcom.

Oh after awhile they became just an annoyance, but the first time or two I encountered them I was unprepared for the experience, totally vulnerable, deeply hurt when I figured out what their real interest was in me, and barely dodged the bullet on the harm they could have really caused me.

And there were the many people who just didn't message me back at all -- and frankly I could see why. You see, my opinions and outlooks seem to be far underage for the generation to which I properly belong. I rarely saw any OKC match with me that was higher than 70% ... and when I did: the higher the match, the younger the lady in question. The few 80-84% matches I discovered belonged to women who were about 18-20 years old. I was like 42 in comparison. What would any such woman say to a message from me except "Ewww!" Shoot, one such lady responded to a few of my messages and even gave me helpful advice on improving my profile as well. But she soon (understandably) lost interest and went away.

Snowbunny registered on OKC too, largely to show me support I think. Out of interest, I checked to see how much of a match she was for me (and trust me guys this was based on a lot of match-machine questions -- over 3000 I think). The verdict: a whopping 65%. At that point I kind of felt like throwing up my hands WRT match percentages!

Well that was all interesting for awhile until the novelty wore off and I just got burned out. I tried PolyMatchMaker too but honestly it

  • wasn't that well organized at the time,
  • had a little too many rough-playing members for my taste,
  • didn't have enough members overall for me to find anyone interested in me, let alone where the feeling was mutual -- and forget about finding anyone local.
And then there was the worst experience that came out of all of this searching. Someone on OKC showed an interest in me, put their best foot forward, pulled the wool over my eyes (I'd met lots of scammers but this woman was good -- had Snowbunny fooled as well as me), and found her way into my very home -- rent free -- cause she was (supposedly) down on her luck. Yeah, things were great (though really not particularly romantic and of course not at all sexual) for about a week, and then the downward curve started to become noticeable, as it got steeper, and steeper. The promise she'd made was that she only needed a place to stay for a month or two, but you can imagine how that played out. In the end the only way to pry myself loose from the immeasurably convoluted life of this harsh, critical, slobbish (seriously you've no idea the disaster her bedroom and bathroom soon became) woman: was to sell the house and move out of town.

So. What did I learn from all this? I'll tell you. I learned that there's tons of women out there, but not all that many who'd love me so much as to put up with my faults, without putting me through the ringer about them; who'd be honest about her intentions toward me; who'd seek to help, support, and honor me rather than take advantage of me; who'd deeply and generously lavish her attentions on me. Would Snowbunny lose interest in messaging me? Hell no! She'd answer every email I sent her til the end of Time, and her answers wouldn't be terse formal blow-off's or copy/pasted form letters either. It had been warmth and friendship and companionship that I'd been longing for. Well duh. I already had it. Long story short: I learned how to count my blessings.

From that time forward, I began to notice something. I was starting to enjoy the "me time" I had when Snowbunny was away doing stuff with Brother-Husband. I liked my personal space, my alternating independent solo nights (up and to bed whenever I pleased, no need to wake up and be self-conscious about whether I was giving a fair and appropriate amount of bodily contact, no worries that I might keep her up if I snored), and I really found myself delving into poly forums like this one (and like Polyamorous Percolations -- back up and running again guys, yay! yayayayayyyyy!).

Suddenly, being alone didn't feel so lonesome anymore. It's more like Snowbunny and Brother-Husband were respecting my right to privacy. I had a cave I could retreat into. It made me feel more like being social (with both of them), and it made me feel more comfortable in general -- as if I'd discovered my very own niche in the Universe. When I'm alone, I remember how much Snowbunny (and Brother-Husband) love/s me, and it makes me smile.

So for those of you ladies (who are or) who desire to be the hinge in an MFM Vee -- or those of you guys (who are or) who desire to be the hinge in an FMF Vee -- and are feeling selfish about it: Don't. You don't need to. All you need to do is discover the right unique balance for each and every person's needs in the equation. Some folks need more romantic attention; others do fine with less.

Of course this also means that lots of people are intense/attached enough in their romantic relationships that poly won't work for them. That is, having "half a spouse" will starve them emotionally. And maybe in some such cases, it's less painful for all involved to break up instead of trying to force a poly arrangement to work that won't work. But my point is, many MFM and FMF (and FFM, MMF, FFF, and MMM) Vee's do work, and one of the most important reasons why they work is because each person finds that the amount of time/attention they get, balanced with the amount of "me time" for them, is the right formula for them given their life, personality, and circumstances.

And that's all I got to say about that.

[continued below]
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Poly Imbalance? Dexter Finale? Part 2 of 2.

[continued from above]

And now some sad news. The Dexter seasons have come to an end. I saw the last episode last night. And ...

... [we interrupt this blog to send you a public service announcement:

DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER DANGER! SPOILERS UP AHEAD! SHAMELESS, BIG-TIME SPOILERS! SKIP THE REST OF THIS POST IF YOU HATE 'EM.

that is all.] ...

And ahem. I'm disappointed.

Not because it was depressing. The end of the Godfather movies was depressing. The end of Breaking Bad was -- well, certainly depressing in that the main character died. But that's different. Those were two story arcs in which you could rather sense how it was going to end, from start to finish. You knew Walter White was gonna die. You just knew it. And you knew that Michael Corleone was gonna lose everything dear to him. It was so obvious in how he started out as such an innocent, sinless character. The Godfather movies and the Breaking Bad episodes marched inexorably towards those tragic ends.

Now Dexter, I figured he was going to die. But abandon his loved ones, just so he could pull a Michael Corleone on us out of the blue? Huh? That didn't fit the show trajectory at all.

See here's the thing. The show had a lot of great mini-stories germinating in Season Eight. Every indicator in my mind was that they had at least two or three seasons of good additional material to work with. Yet in the final episode we suddenly find all those mini-stories tossed aside midstream. None of them got resolved. And while the main Dexter/Debra arc got "resolved" (rather abruptly -- Debra dies from a random complication and Dexter suddenly decides "screw everyone and myself?" Uhhh ...)

Technically Debra's death was realistic. People die from unexpected complications in "relatively minor" surgery all the time. But it didn't make for good storytelling. And Dexter racing into a hurricane, destroying his boat but somehow saving himself? First of all, why? Why not give in to the overwhelming elements combining to snuff his life out? The sharks. The treading of hurricane-whipped waters. The swimming -- how far? -- back to shore? Not only how's it possible, but what's the point?

Oh Dexter's been known to drop mini-stories before. Most notably, in the first season María LaGuerta has a crush on Dexter ... and then, suddenly, that motif just disappears. Well, that's forgiveable. The overall story continues to be satisfyingly interesting. But the end of Season Eight? They seriously dumped a buttload of mini-stories, and "resolved" the big stories in a very abrupt, awkward way.

Don't get me wrong, the actors and actresses were in top form right to the finish. And yes, I can see things like, Well, now Dexter's human, he has human feelings and he can't take it, his urge to kill is gone, Debra was his major-life-decision compass and he's lost her, so of course he'd abandon everything including the kiss of death etc. etc. etc.

And ooh! a surprise ending! Right? Yeah sure ... except that sounds more like an excuse and a selling point to me than it does a master plan.

Wanna know what I really think? I think that someone -- the main writer/s -- got bogged down with other stuff in their real lives, and just didn't feel up to the (I admit it) heavy, heavy commitment involved in sustaining the Dexter story. They needed out, and couldn't wait for one or two more seasons to get out. So they just thought up a series ending that sounded kind of poetic and said, "Yeah, what the heck, let's run with it -- and see how fast we can do it," without really thinking through the details and overall balance like they usually do. That's my opinion.

Sheesh, I even wonder if they weren't planning to have Debra recover from the gunshot injury ... only to decide at the last second, "Say, let's have her die. That would really shake things up for Dexter, and just about explain anything he'd do after that." And what's up with tossing the eye-opening Dexter-Debra romantic motif by the wayside? Surely that would have been a story worth pursuing?

Bleah, what a bummer. The Dexter series deserved a much more extraordinary ending. Breaking Bad got fireworks finale ending. The ending Dexter got wasn't just depressing. It was plain old mediocre.

Now what do I tell all my friends? "Watch the whole Dexter series, you'll be glad you did, it's all 100% Grade-A great." Darn it. I can't say that anymore. The series ended with a fly in the ointment. Sooo depressing ...

Welp, got that rant out of my system. Bleah, and here I promised myself I wasn't even gonna talk about it. :(
 

Eponine

New member
Suddenly, being alone didn't feel so lonesome anymore. It's more like Snowbunny and Brother-Husband were respecting my right to privacy. I had a cave I could retreat into. It made me feel more like being social (with both of them), and it made me feel more comfortable in general -- as if I'd discovered my very own niche in the Universe. When I'm alone, I remember how much Snowbunny (and Brother-Husband) love/s me, and it makes me smile.

So for those of you ladies (who are or) who desire to be the hinge in an MFM Vee -- or those of you guys (who are or) who desire to be the hinge in an FMF Vee -- and are feeling selfish about it: Don't. You don't need to. All you need to do is discover the right unique balance for each and every person's needs in the equation. Some folks need more romantic attention; others do fine with less.

Of course this also means that lots of people are intense/attached enough in their romantic relationships that poly won't work for them. That is, having "half a spouse" will starve them emotionally. And maybe in some such cases, it's less painful for all involved to break up instead of trying to force a poly arrangement to work that won't work. But my point is, many MFM and FMF (and FFM, MMF, FFF, and MMM) Vee's do work, and one of the most important reasons why they work is because each person finds that the amount of time/attention they get, balanced with the amount of "me time" for them, is the right formula for them given their life, personality, and circumstances.
I really like what you said here. I think in a healthy poly relationship, there's no need to keep scores or force totally equal behaviors, because what's important is everyone finds a comfortable niche and has their major needs met. It may look unequal on the surface, but different people have different needs, and as long as everyone is happy, who cares if someone has more partners or spends more time with one partner than another? My two long-distance SOs most likely will never be my life partners like my husband, but the solo poly lifestyle is exactly what they want and the thought of cohabitation makes them cringe, so we have a happy balance, which doesn't involve equality of behavior, but does involve "equality of mentality" (as L brilliantly puts it).
 
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Atlantis

New member
I just started season 8 of Dexter last night. Thanks for putting up the spoiler alert!
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
No prob, Atlantis. Dexter is a high-quality series, that's for sure.

And, Eponine, I totally agree with you. There's sooo many types of arrangements and agreements that people can have, and often no reason why the time/attention has to be evenly distributed. Of course that doesn't mean that polyamory is something that everyone would want either -- which is also my whole point. There's an endless variety of people out there. Some would need/prefer one kind of an arrangement; others would need/prefer another. It's not about satisfying the demands of some theoretical ideal, it's about figuring out what each person in the equation wants and is comfortable with. And there can be any number of reasons why a particular person would want what they want.

Thus and so doth the muse strike me for now,
Kevin T.
 

Brighty18

New member
I hope you can still see this reply, considering how old the thread is...

Hi, fellow sci-fi geek! (And I mean that in the nicest possible way.)

What's quite a story, my friend. You've dealt with some difficult issues amazingly well, it seems.

Interestingly, we see, to have some parallels, albeit out of order.

* I am much older than my legal husband (and our new partner). In fact, I'm 11 years older than A and almost 18 years older than C. A's parents freaked out at first (and I lost a job over it), but they are cool now that we've been happily together for so long. I'm really sorry to hear how awful LV's kids were, though.

* I grew-up in California in a town we jokingly called "Little Provo" and flirted with the idea of becoming LDS. Glad I didn't in the end, no offense. I also think that monogamy has a different set of connotations for LDS folks who have had to deal with the anti-polygamy mindset for so long. There's baggage there that others don't have.

* I lived in Tacoma, WA, for years. How are you liking it there? Is it easy to make friends?

* I used to be an active choral singer and was totally into that scene. A is also a classical bassoonist.

* And I live in NM now. Where did you used to live? (If you feel comfortable telling me that.) And do you miss it?

Best wishes to you!
 

Atlantis

New member
HI Kevin,
Finally finished Dexter, I nearly turned it off as he sailed off into the storm, and was rather disappointed, but kept it on till the end.
I quite enjoyed the ending, it is left that he might start all over again. There are rumors of various spin-offs, but I believe Michael C Hall said he would probably not do any more.
I was disappointed that Deb went out the way she did and he left Harrison with crazy Hannah. Wouldn't the grandparents have been a better option?
Anyway, I enjoyed it.
I was, however, still ignorant that Walter White died in Breaking Bad. Don't ask me how I avoided finding that out! Need to bump that up on Netflix, but I wanted to finish Dexter first. LOL.
I just read your Dexter post and found it out!
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
@ Atlantis ... sorry about the Breaking Bad spoiler, I forgot to forewarn you about that. Don't worry though, every episode of Breaking Bad is worth watching and watching again, spoilers or no spoilers. And while this too is kind of a spoiler, let me just say that the last episode is a mind-blower. Blew my mind at least.

Which is actually one of the reasons I didn't much care for the Dexter finale. Kind of went off like a firecracker after Breaking Bad's full fireworks show. Surely Dexter deserved something just as great!

Re: Dexter spin-offs ... meh. Especially if Deb's dead and Michael Hall's heart's not in it. The standing finale seemed to me to be saying that Dex's heart's not in it anymore either. And how would they explain all the other silliness left unexplained in the finale? :( Too late to fix it now; I suggest they let that sleeping dog lie and move on to other, not-so-related projects. M*A*S*H ended; Breaking Bad ended; Dexter can end. And that's my opinion, which in concert with five bucks'll be worth a Starbucks.

It's all about story arc, you see. A really good ending draws one's mind to the full-circle contrast of the beginning of a show/series. Godfather and Breaking Bad did that. Dexter, not so much so. Walter White and Michael Corleone traveled a path as characters that led to the given endings and thus made sense. Michael traveled a clear course from innocence and blessings to a curse and a corruption that he couldn't escape. Walter traveled a clear course from regular joe with no clue about meth and its underworld, to a place where he'd become "The Master" of those things. In both cases, you could see the characters metamorphosing in that/those direction/s.

Dexter's character vector (on the other hand) was from a cold-blooded killer (pilot episode) to a warm-blooded regular guy (after more than eight seasons?). The whole story arc pointed that way and yet at the end, he's suddenly anything but a regular guy, he abruptly becomes completely unexplainable and, like you pointed out, to protect his son from his own supposed serial killer-ness, he leaves his son in the hands of another serial killer. What? Eh, I think the character made a sudden left turn out of the wild blue for no appreciable (let alone foreshadowed) reason. I guess some folks'll like it, but it wasn't my cup of tea.

Okay *now* I'm done venting (this time for sure). :cool:

@ Brighty18 ... no need to worry about this thread getting locked or something. That would only happen if there was a great big off-topic (what's off-topic in a blog thread -- I don't know) fight broke out and ... yeah, actually not the type of thing that normally happens. Since I've posted on this thread, I'm therefore subscribed to it, which means I'll always -- sometimes a few days? weeks?? nah, later -- take notice whenever someone else posts in it. Be it a year or a decade (not a century coz by then I'll be dead) from now. I'll always keep up on this thread, it's my baby. :)

Ah, if only I could qualify as sci-fi geek. I'm just an armchair amateur with enough trivial knowledge to talk myself into trouble but not enough to talk myself back out. No problems on me having lots of opinions though!

No, you made the right call, avoiding the LDS trail, I think. As for monogamy (versus say polygamy), most Mormons are fervently opposed to anything not monogamous. Kind of like being in an angry state of denial. Oh yes patriarchal polygyny flooded the church's past -- and floods faithful males' eternal future -- but hush hush, we don't talk about that, and shame on anyone who does anything but marry in a one-man one-woman type of a way.

I had a couple of "ready-made friends" here in the Seattle area, and I'm sure it'll be easy enough to make more, but I've only been here about a month and don't have much thoughts about cooking up a large social life -- yet. Talk to me again in a year and who knows.

It's great here. We're not technically *in* Seattle but we're within easy reach of it. And for those who've never been here, can I just say that while yes it rains often around here, it's also often quite Sunny. In fact there's a five-month Summery season in which everyone's lawns brown out because no one thinks to manually water them. Winter Temps seldom dip below 40 and Summer Temps seldom hit 90. I consider it to be a great deal.

Yeah, me and music have some history together. But I'm more just a writer now ... an internet typist to be more exact. ;)

Too bad I didn't know more of you when I was in New Mex. We could have met. Oh well, we've met now -- and that's nice.

Where did I used to live?

  • Utah (Provo/Utah Valley)
  • Michigan (north of Detroit)
  • New Mexico (Albuqueque)
... and now Washington.

Do I miss "it?" Well "it" being several States, I guess I'll give a "group answer" and say, "No, but I don't mind visiting my old stomping grounds now and then."

Thanks for the well wishes and ... :D ... right back atcha.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 

LovingRadiance

Active member
The curiosity was killing me. Lol. Had to catch up.
Cant wait to fly back to seattle so I can meet you all IN PERSON. Lol

In the meantime feel free to consider me an internet stalker who doesnt need money, housing, freebies etc. :) lol
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Haha, I love low-maintainance relationships. ;)
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
In several scattered posts in other boards/threads, I have mentioned that I have psychological disorders and take meds to manage them. Since this is "my blog thread" and my psychological condition says something about who I am, it occurred to me that I might want to lay it all out in more detail here.

The lengths of the lists in this post surprise to me, and perhaps will alarm you. But I don't mean them as a cry for help, as things have finally evened out for me after some 25 years of trial and error. I have a good life now and despite the nightmares that haunt me almost every time I sleep, I find life considerably less frightening than it used to be.

I have had counseling on and off since the 90's and while some of it helped, much of it seemed to be futile or inadvertently counterproductive. Overall it was the meds that saved whatever grace I had left, so that I can show some grace in my posts, and somewhat less consistently, in my live interactions with my loved ones. My late wife LV and my current poly partner Snowbunny both sacrificed much time and effort to get me the help that I needed. They also endured my panics, rages, shouting, freak-outs, emotional meltdowns, and extreme frustration over the years, and they took some verbal barbs from me that qualify as psychological abuse. For those who wonder, can a person with as serious of psychological problems as myself be a tolerable part of any poly (or mono) relationship, those women proved that, given the patience of Job, it can be done. I am grateful for their patience and loyalty, and remorseful for my many sins.

My life hasn't been all terrible; I have been treated to much joy and wonder. Much of my life has been a roller-coaster: brief ecstatic highs followed by lengthy devastating lows. I like the milder track the ride now offers much better.

My chronically angry mother was extremely critical toward her children and a master of cutting words, and while her rabid hanger beatings inspired physical terror, it was her verbal beatings that insinuated deep and far-reaching roots into my soul. I am my own worst enemy and metaphorically flog myself for my least mistakes. When posting, I mask the damage that hard criticism from others does to me, while my loved ones witness and put up with the effects of the profound upset and agitation that can persist in me for days. I am determined to learn how to take criticism into stride and so I sometimes expose myself to it against my better judgment. I think I am making progress and becoming more resilient, but I am also trying to establish healthier boundaries.

---

Professional diagnoses I've received (in roughly chronological order):

  • depression
  • attention deficit disorder (ADD)
  • obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD)
  • borderline personality disorder (BPD)
  • post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
  • bipolar disorder (rapid cycling)
  • schizoaffective disorder
  • Asperger syndrome (mild autism spectrum disorder)
I have symptoms of all of the above, but Asperger's is the official current diagnosis.

---

Psychotropics (and other prescriptions) I've tried:

  • Abilify
  • Anafranil
  • Ambien
  • Amoxapine
  • Buspar
  • Celexa
  • Cylert
  • Depakote
  • Desipramine
  • Effexor
  • Emsam
  • Geodon
  • Haldol
  • Invega
  • Klonopin
  • Lamictal
  • Latuda
  • Lexapro
  • Lithobid
  • Lunesta
  • Luvox
  • Metformin
  • Paxil
  • Propranolol
  • Prozac
  • Remeron
  • Respen-A
  • Restoril
  • Risperdal
  • Ritalin
  • Rozerem
  • Saphris
  • Seroquel
  • Topamax
  • Trazodone
  • Trileptal
  • Valium
  • Wellbutrin
  • Xanax
  • Zoloft
  • Zyprexa
Currently taking Zyprexa, Metformin, and Xanax.

---

A few non-prescription aids I've tried:

  • acupuncture
  • fish oil
  • kava-kava
  • melatonin
  • mixed Eastern tea
  • St. John's wort
  • rosemary
  • valerian
  • vitamin D
Currently taking melatonin, vitamin D, and fish oil.

---

Obviously, most of the stuff I've tried ending up helping little if any, and in many cases yielded some nasty side effects. Zyprexa is a mixed blessing because it comes with a diabetes risk and diabetes already runs in my family. But because Zyprexa's done so well at soothing my troubled moods, I feel somewhat constrained to stick to it for now. I can only hope that the Metformin will contain the weight gain Zyprexa can cause, as weight gain also increases one's diabetes risk. I really suck at exercise nowadays and have less than zero motivation to do it, so eating less will have to suffice. And yes I might try cannabis at some point. Luckily it's legal in the State of Washington.
 

Bluebird

Active member
Thanks for writing and posting all of this. I am in the process of maybe moving in my boyfriend, and the thought of sharing time and balancing everything is a bit daunting. As the hinge in a MFM vee, I feel a lot of responsibility in keeping everyone happy and things on an even keel. Honestly, I would love to hear about the ups and downs of the early years in your configuration - you wrote that you had lots of stormy stuff, but you eventually worked it out. Reading about pitfalls others have been through sure might help me!

Thanks bunches!
 

LovingRadiance

Active member
Feel free to dig through my blog. It talks about all sorts of pitfalls we've worked through. :)

Kevin-You are so cool. :)
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Thanks LR.

Bluebird, I think moving in together is a monumental undertaking, especially if you are in the early stages (first few years) of your poly relationship together. I'll tell you what really put the whammy on me, is the layout of the house. It was a great layout for people with a comfortably worked-out dynamic together, but it was a terrible layout for people just now attempting polyamory for the first time in their lives.

The killer for me was the lack of an attached bath for my bedroom. This severely undermined my sense of privacy. It meant I did not have a cave I could bury myself in during my times of turmoil. I was going to be forced to walk past the living room every time Nature called. These trips I made back and forth to the bathroom punctuated the fact that I wasn't quickly warming up to Brother-Husband's company. For me that was normal; for him that was a sign of rejection. He felt like I was rejecting him. Whereas from my viewpoint I just needed more time alone before I'd be ready for a lot of socialization. Brother-Husband and I were raised in two different worlds. The difference in how we were raised affected how we perceived even the little things, and those little things were killing our rapport with each other.

The next problem was that I did not see myself as a primary partner, and that I did see myself as being vulnerable to the "law of veto" should Brother-Husband choose to invoke it. In official terms, our V had no secondaries and there were no veto powers. Hell if Snowbunny had been forced to choose him or me, I'd have probably "won" that contest. But that's not how I felt. I felt like my position in the family was very uncertain.

Now add to that the fact that Brother-Husband was just newly getting acquainted with the concept of his wife having sex with another man. He was trying but I don't think it was easy for him. At the time I definitely didn't think it was easy for him; in fact I suspected that he was not succeeding. This suspicion was reinforced when Snowbunny and I were alone together in my bedroom, and Brother-Husband was out there, frequently walking right past the bedroom door, making lots of extra noise compared to the usual, lots of noise in the kitchen etc.

No doubt some of this was exaggerated perception on my part, as I was afraid he was mad about me "sexing his wife" and as a result confirmation bias raised its ugly head in my mind and well, I gotta tell you, it ruined much of the mood for me and sometimes it ruined all of it. Which was a disaster because back in those early days I desperately craved sex and was reduced to a pile of bitter wreckage whenever a planned/promised sexual encounter fell through.

All of these factors piled up and increasingly aggravated each other until the only solution was to get Brother-Husband and me out of the same house. It became necessary for me to have a place of my own, a cave I could absolutely retreat to that was totally, securely out of the range of Brother-Husband's sight and hearing. So, he and Snowbunny moved into a townhouse in Albuquerque, and shortly thereafter I moved into a small condo unit about a ten-minute drive away. The drawback was that Snowbunny had to drive back and forth to spend time with her two men. The benefit was that it saved our endangered V relationship. It didn't save it instantly. A long spell (a year or two) of detoxification had to go by before I was really ready to start living in the same house as Brother-Husband again.

And even then, everyone now understood that Kevin's bedroom absolutely needs a connected bath at all times. In order for me to feel comfortable about "hanging out" with Brother-Husband, I had to know that I had a completely autonomous space I could retreat to if and whenever my own feelings got out of control.

Of course as you can see from my above post, I have many personal problems that the average guy doesn't have. So there are things I would need that the average guy wouldn't need.

But even taking that into account, I would still strongly caution anyone who is about to move in together. Maybe I wouldn't say, "Don't do it, it's impossible," but I would say, "Be really careful, there's a lot of things that can go wrong -- and establish privacy like nobody's business in the beginning." Needless to say, I'm an avid advocate for connected baths. They do wonders in the way of creating "cave suites" into which a person can hide when things get really tense, awkward, and/or plain old bad.

I can tell you more about the early struggles our V had, but those are the main things that come to my mind for the moment. Questions about specific details may ferret out more of my memories, memories perhaps that would be especially useful to you.

In general though, I just think it's hard for almost all poly units when they first get together. Lots of jealousy and insecurity. Lots of fears and frustrations. It takes people a long time to learn each other's quirks and idiosyncracies, and that learning is necessary before people can figure out how to live comfortably together.

I once heard the maxim, "First year forming, second year storming, third year norming." I wouldn't call that a scientific formula you can plan on, but it does express the general idea that, "Hey, you are going to have some rough times together. You have to prepare yourself for that, and don't beat yourself up when it happens. You're not failing, you're just going through a natural part of the process together."

I hope this post serves as a starter for you to prepare for your year of storming -- and maybe it won't be a year; who knows what it'll be. Just know that it's hard for people to get to know each other when they're just starting out on a poly venture together.

And know that, as my case demonstrated, each individual will have very different and unique needs compared to each other individual.
 

SNeacail

New member
Of course as you can see from my above post, I have many personal problems that the average guy doesn't have. So there are things I would need that the average guy wouldn't need.

Now, that would depend on who you are hanging out with to have a reference for average. Looking around my circle of friends, you would be average.

Private cave = Connecting bath and a mini fridge. Ok, maybe a toaster oven or a microwave too.

This can be very important anytime you have multiple adults living in one house, unless they are used to being roommates and sharing a bath.
 

FullofLove1052

New member
I think you are pretty damn awesome. Our pasts are what strengthen us. Not define us. I would still share my Krispy Kreme doughnuts with you. (The light was on this morning.)

I applaud you for having a successful live in V. It would drive me nuts. Living with Matt is more than enough. I need plenty of personal space, and most people would not be able to maintain my standards of neatness.
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
@ FullofLove1052 ... mwah. And Krispy Kremes? Down under? Oh man, I have been officially badly influenced. :)

I think a key simplification that makes my live-in V possible is the lack of offspring. Shoot, I'm more comfortable around kids than I am around adults, but parenting would be sooo stressful. For me. Poly is complicated all by itself. I don't know how live-in poly-with-kids people manage to do it.

Re: neatness ... heh, love it, now if it just wasn't so darn much work.

@ SNeacail ... heh, I need to hang out with your circle of friends.

Re: mini fridge and toaster oven/microwave ... those are definitely nice perks and I'd never turn 'em down, but for a guy like me who could afford to lose 70 pounds anyway, it's almost better for me not to have the temptation. Plus one can technically say "no" to the tummy for many many hours, versus my bladder which is known to demand my attention every 20 minutes. :mad: Stupid bladder. It's not always as bad as that but you get the picture.

But yeah ... living together can be quite a challenge just for platonic roommates. Add to that a newbie poly dynamic, and wow, you can get enough sparks to start a bonfire.

Scary.
 

Bluebird

Active member
Wow, thanks for all of that! Certainly helpful. :) Right now the idea for us - if we decide to co-habitate - is that I will stay in the big master suite and each of my guys will have a separate, private bedroom of their own. They won't have a private bathroom, except if they stay the night with me, in the master suite. Otherwise, there is a bathroom on each floor of the house - so 3 others to choose from. There is one directly across the hall from what would be my boyfriend's bedroom though.

My husband is already used to staying in the other bedroom, when I have sleepovers. He is amiable to keeping that one, especially since he has an early rise time and it gets the most light early in the morning. Other than that, both bedrooms are exactly the same size with just a tiny difference in the layout. Both have the same walk-in closet, carpeting, paint, etc.

I have never heard that saying, "First year forming, second year storming, third year norming." To be honest, I haven't had that experience with my other live-in relationships, but I will keep it in mind. Certainly I've only had two - my ex-husband who I was with for 12 years, and my current husband of 8 years - so I am by no means a pro at this! lol I will definitely keep it in mind.

How did you split the costs of living - evenly, like normal roommates? Or did you pay a specific rent, as you were moving into an already established household? We've been talking about how to do things and there really isn't a ton of guidance out there, that I have seen yet.

Did you have a lot of issues surrounding spillover noise from bedrooms? You mentioned you could hear your metamour outside your door during sex, that sounds awkward!
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Re:
"How did you split the costs of living -- evenly, like normal roommates? Or did you pay a specific rent, as you were moving into an already established household? We've been talking about how to do things and there really isn't a ton of guidance out there, that I have seen yet."

I think there are so many possible ways of doing that. It almost needs its own thread (if it doesn't have one already, I haven't thoroughly searched). In my case, our V came together just at the time when we all moved together from Michigan to New Mexico. So the house was new to all three of us. As for money (house payments, groceries, whatever), we've always mostly pooled our resources and called it "funny money." But I know that many poly units split the costs very specifically with the individuals involved, and everyone is responsible for making sure their part gets taken care of. Whereas in my V, Snowbunny really takes the lead in managing the money -- all the money that is: our combined funds.

Re:
"Did you have a lot of issues surrounding spillover noise from bedrooms? You mentioned you could hear your metamour outside your door during sex, that sounds awkward!"

Exactly. If I could hear him, I had to assume that he could hear me. Let's just say I tried to keep the noise level down to super spy level, and Snowbunny tried to do so too but found it to be more of a challenge ... I mean, come on, it sucks when your only opportunities to have sex, you feel like a jealous male nanny (i.e. the sex police) is out there taking notes of your every moan and shuffle. That was crazy!

We solve that problem now by only having sex when we're at home and Brother-Husband is at work. Honestly, I think that makes it easier for him as well. He's all onboard with this poly ideal -- in theory -- but out-of-sight/out-of-mind is a much easier way for him to live the ideal in practice.

Keep the questions coming, I always tackle them with a willing spirit. ;)
 
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