Limerence, recovery,

[Vleit]

Hello,

My wife and I are taking actions toward opening our relationship to a young woman. My wife and I have been talking about polyamory, our personal boundaries, desires, comfort levels for a little over a year. We just had a wonderful first experience last. Ifht that left us both glowing and happy well into today.

I'm finding it difficult to deal with the wild ups and downs of new relationships. I have always fallen fast and hard for women I have dated. I need a strong emotional bond in order to engage in relationships (sexual or non-sexual). I can tap into a strong connection pretty quickly as I tend to be a passionate person in all areas my life. When I pick up ques (real or imagined) that my interests are not reciprocated I can feel panicky and quick to write someone off. I also then can perseveration for months about what went wrong. (I may have mild/mod OCD).

I am also a recovering alcoholic with over 13 yrs of sobriety. I work the program and am actively involved in step work for myself and others. I mention this because I am concerned that I have a predisposition to addiction and the experience of limerence and highs and lows give me pause regarding actually being poly in action not just thought.

I have read most of more than two, all of ethical slut and regularly listen to poly podcasts.

My question is directed towards both "normal" people who ride the highs and lows of new relationships and to those in recovery and or dual diagnosis that manage emotional issues while living polyamory.

Granted, I have. Even married in a mono relationship for 14 yrs (12 of them married) and I'm guessing strong feelings are not abnormal for anyone. I also figure counseling is a must for a guy like me but I'm wondering what others experience with this is.

Going forward I plan to schedule with a sex positive therapist for me and my wife, I am also trying to decide the right time to be direct with the potential new partner and explain that new relationships present a lot of beauty and challenge for me and I would need direct communication when they are ready to share their feelings, boundaries and needs and wants.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[FallenAngelina]

When I pick up ques (real or imagined) that my interests are not reciprocated I can feel panicky and quick to write someone off. I also then can perseveration for months about what went wrong. (I may have mild/mod OCD).

This is a fairly typical experience for people who were trained in co-dependent families. It's an attempt to control a situation that by nature, is not controllable. Recovery is much about becoming more and more comfortable with the loss of the illusion of control in general. As we learn in recovery, having control is always an illusion. What you're calling OCD here is a typical co-dependent and ineffective effort to gain some sort of comfort in a situation that is totally unpredictable and unknowable. The beginning of a new romantic relationship is fraught with uncertainty, along with all of the novelty, so it will be an especially challenging time for those of us who grapple with an emotionally unsafe upbringing.

My question is directed towards both "normal" people who ride the highs and lows of new relationships and to those in recovery and or dual diagnosis that manage emotional issues while living polyamory.

I'm not sure what your question is, but I'll say that I am a recovering co-dependent, in private weekly therapy and active in Al-Anon. There is absolutely no way that I could be having a beautiful experience of poly without many, many years of internal work, specifically around changing all of my co-dependent thinking habits. I very likely also could not be having a good relationship experience of any kind without lots of recovery work and community.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Vleit,

I have been with the same partner (and metamour) for over a decade, so it has been a long time since last I experienced the highs and lows of a new relationship. Back when I did experience that, I had many complications such as bipolar and other disorders. I got counseling and went through many, many medications, trying to find one that would help me. I finally tried Zyprexa and it seemed to help. I am still taking Zyprexa today, and tend to be pretty calm, even though I can still have anxiety and depression. But what works for me is not necessarily what works for you.

The one thing I think I would advise is, take it slow. Take all of it slow. Don't make any major decisions until you've had a lot of time to reach a state of calm. That and, do lots of communication, which perhaps you already do. I also suggest that you continue to post here in this thread, keep us updated on your situation so that we may give you up-to-date info and advice.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Vleit]

This is a fairly typical experience for people who were trained in co-dependent families. It's an attempt to control a situation that by nature, is not controllable. Recovery is much about becoming more and more comfortable with the loss of the illusion of control in general. As we learn in recovery, having control is always an illusion. What you're calling OCD here is a typical co-dependent and ineffective effort to gain some sort of comfort in a situation that is totally unpredictable and unknowable. The beginning of a new romantic relationship is fraught with uncertainty, along with all of the novelty, so it will be an especially challenging time for those of us who grapple with an emotionally unsafe upbringing.


I'm not sure what your question is, but I'll say that I am a recovering co-dependent, in private weekly therapy and active in Al-Anon. There is absolutely no way that I could be having a beautiful experience of poly without many, many years of internal work, specifically around changing all of my co-dependent thinking habits. I very likely also could not be having a good relationship experience of any kind without lots of recovery work and community.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I found it very true and helpful and got my butt to an alanon mtg tonight. I am also looking into how I want to proceed with therapy. I am eager to get well and can attest that family upbringing has certainly trained me to use relationships like life and death and react very strongly and dramatically to perceived damage or threats to the relationship. In this specific case, I have been in contact with this person a year ago. My wife and I were both interested in dating her and she seemed interested, experienced in long term poly relationships and wise. Then after a couple of months of back and forth messages, a couple meets for coffee, meets with her primary boyfriend and one "date" she completely dropped off. No replies in calls or texts. She would only communicate with my wife. Then after two scheduled phone calls to discuss the relationship with my wife, she didn't pick up or call back. We stopped talking and about a year later (last month) I sent her a message saying hello. Things seemed to pick up, made plans, we all met, had fun together. Anyway, we ended up having our first physical experience together (she, wife and I). It seemed to go very well. Wife and I left literally giddy and supercharged sexually. I woke up after only four or five hours of sleep and couldn't fall back asleep. Very unusual for me as I need a lot of sleep generally. I couldn't stop picturing the previous night and I just felt completely high and euphoric. I messaged "she" and said how wonderful the date was, that night, no reply. Then the next day I asked if she felt all warm, glowing and great in her stomach too and she barely replied to that either. Then said she is "holding back" but did not elaborate. This completely flipped me around instantly, once euphoria, then despair and depression set in.

The experience with her was something I had wanted (consciously and sub consciously) for YEARS. I love my wife but I feel emotionally malnourished and after discovering poly, I have become obsessed with the ideas and eager to experience this. Not just sexual gratification but love, attention, appreciation and interest, wanting to be near one another, thinking about each other...

I am very clear that my current issue is not that "she" was/is the one, but more that I thought she would be "a" one and it is shaping up not to be the case...again.

I am trying to balance my impulsive urge to be direct and say "seems like you don't know what you want, are not interested, or don't want me. I am interested in growing this relationship but I'm interpreting your lack of response as an indicator that we may not have the right timing, matching what we are looking for. I would like to discuss this with you as I don't know weather to protect myself or remain vulnerable. "

It's been 15 years since I dated, so perhaps this is just part of the crap I was never good at to begin with, waiting, letting the other person wonder, setting the hook so to speak. I never liked games like that, always been direct to the point of being off putting and scarring a lot of people who might have been a good match.

Ultimately,

I am grateful to have had this experience at all and with her. I may end up counting myself exceptionally lucky this didn't go on any longer if this is the dynamic. Thus far there are several red flags that make me question my motives for even waiting or giving the benefit of the doubt.

Would love feedback and perspective


Sincerely

 

[FallenAngelina]

Then the next day I asked if she felt all warm, glowing and great in her stomach too and she barely replied to that either. Then said she is "holding back" but did not elaborate. This completely flipped me around instantly, once euphoria, then despair and depression set in......

I may end up counting myself exceptionally lucky this didn't go on any longer if this is the dynamic.

This is indeed the dynamic of entrenched co-dependent thinkers. I know it well. I lived there for 50 years and then sought to change this painful cycle for myself. I'm glad to hear that you got yourself to an AlAnon meeting. I know that many "double winners" go to AlAnon for the specific emotional work - taking the focus off of whatever substance and whatever outrageous behavior and keeping it on the examination of how we feel (usually our fears.) I go to Al-Anon to work on my fears of abandonment. What you're describing is hyper focus on the other person and looking to the Other (what we used to call the qualifier) to tell us how to feel. If the Other confirms for us that we can go ahead and be giddy, we are elated. If the Other does not, we are crushed. Co-dependence is giving the Other total dominion over our feelings, based on the fear that we will perish without his/her cooperation. Co-dependence is the fear that our Self is hollow or an untethered ballon without the emotional presence of the Other. You're describing a thought pattern that you'll get into with anyone who calls up the co-dependent in you. This is not about "She" at all.

 

[Vleit]

Again your reply has given me a lot of great, nutritious food for thought and for my heart. I believe you have clearly distilled the situation with me. I would add that I seem predisposed to relationships that are especially good at bringing out my codependent tendencies. Absentee partner, repressed partner, gameplaying...etc. given the extra complexities of multiple partners I imagine there is a "getting all the cars in the train to move at the same time" and not bump into each other, sort of affect happening. Possibly, the starts and stops on "her " end, while not being communicated very well, could have something to do with her and needing time and communication with her boyfriend. Maybe he has acted jealous and she needs time to lightly broach the subject.

I suppose trying to figure out what is going on inside her head is not a healthy practice for me to engage in however any insights into her motivation would help me gage my response and that's how I rationalize...It's almost as if I am a nuclear power plant with faulty alarm systems that keep saying we are going into melt down and so I have to run extra "environmental observation" tests to see if the alarms are right this time.

When you are codependent and have issues with abandonment as I do and it sounds you do as well, how do you determine when it is appropriate to push for clarity and where the relationship is or even end it? In other words how do you know how much waiting is normal?

My sponsor from AA often says I need to quiet the disturbance first before acting. Maybe that's what I need to do here is wait until I feel still and calm regardless of the outcome.

Another question I have is, Are break ups even necessary in polyamory? Maybe I am getting this confused with relationship anarchy but having many loves and loving unselfishly would lend itself well to the concept of people coming and going without needing concrete beginning or ends. If that is relationship anarchy I think My highest self would be that, but that would likely be the black belt of relationship lifestyles for a person with abandonment, codependent and predisposition to addictive behaviors such as myself.

 

[Vleit]

Hello Vleit,

I have been with the same partner (and metamour) for over a decade, so it has been a long time since last I experienced the highs and lows of a new relationship. Back when I did experience that, I had many complications such as bipolar and other disorders. I got counseling and went through many, many medications, trying to find one that would help me. I finally tried Zyprexa and it seemed to help. I am still taking Zyprexa today, and tend to be pretty calm, even though I can still have anxiety and depression. But what works for me is not necessarily what works for you.

The one thing I think I would advise is, take it slow. Take all of it slow. Don't make any major decisions until you've had a lot of time to reach a state of calm. That and, do lots of communication, which perhaps you already do. I also suggest that you continue to post here in this thread, keep us updated on your situation so that we may give you up-to-date info and advice.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Hi Kevin,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply and suggestions. I will try to keep the thread going with updates. I have a lot to learn and my emotional and chemical makeup will likely make this journey more challenging than it would be otherwise but I think it is worth it. Hope it is anyway.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I messaged "she" and said how wonderful the date was, that night, no reply. Then the next day I asked if she felt all warm, glowing and great in her stomach too and she barely replied to that either.....

I don't know weather to protect myself or remain vulnerable. "

Since you've asked for feedback, I'll give you my take. This quoted part is especially co-dependent and what a lot of people would call needy. You message her and she does not reply. Then you message again and back her into a corner of either having to respond with the same feelings as yours or push you back. It's pushy and needy on your part. A healthier response is to text and share your feelings, knowing that if she is interested and comfortable, she will share hers. Knowing that if she does not respond with the same level of enthusiasm, it's going to perhaps sting briefly, but it's not going to crush you. You kinda gave her no choice but to push you way, way back with the texts that asked her if she felt the same giddiness as you. This woman actually had a heathy response to a co-dependent advance on her, and her healthy response was to back away. Only actively co-dependent thinkers get involved with other actively co-dependent thinkers.

Similarly, with the question you ask the Other and yourself: "I don't know whether to protect myself or remain vulnerable" puts all of the responsibility and the pressure on her for your feelings. Emotionally healthy people don't have to choose either vulnerability or protection at the outset of a relationship, but can fairly comfortably share how they feel with one another, not putting everything on the line and forcing themselves into vulnerability and/or self-protection - both pretty fear based stances. Yes, healthy people do feel vulnerable and the need to self-protect at times, but generally don't barrel into situations where they feel the pressing need for either one of these choices, especially when a relationship is brand new. They can slowly and quietly feel how they feel, then exchange thoughts with one another as mutual interest is established. They don't live and die according to the signals from the Other, but can open up a little, sit back, wait for whatever response, enjoy that response (or not) and move along forward together, enjoying the rest of their life in the process. Everything doesn't hang on sentiments needing to be returned or else it's devastation.

 

[Vleit]

Since you've asked for feedback, I'll give you my take. This quoted part is especially co-dependent and what a lot of people would call needy. You message her and she does not reply. Then you message again and back her into a corner of either having to respond with the same feelings as yours or push you back. It's pushy and needy on your part. A healthier response is to text and share your feelings, knowing that if she is interested and comfortable, she will share hers. Knowing that if she does not respond with the same level of enthusiasm, it's going to perhaps sting briefly, but it's not going to crush you. You kinda gave her no choice but to push you way, way back with the texts that asked her if she felt the same giddiness as you. This woman actually had a heathy response to a co-dependent advance on her, and her healthy response was to back away. Only actively co-dependent thinkers get involved with other actively co-dependent thinkers.

Similarly, with the question you ask the Other and yourself: "I don't know whether to protect myself or remain vulnerable" puts all of the responsibility and the pressure on her for your feelings. Emotionally healthy people don't have to choose either vulnerability or protection at the outset of a relationship, but can fairly comfortably share how they feel with one another, not putting everything on the line and forcing themselves into vulnerability and/or self-protection - both pretty fear based stances. Yes, healthy people do feel vulnerable and the need to self-protect at times, but generally don't barrel into situations where they feel the pressing need for either one of these choices, especially when a relationship is brand new. They can slowly and quietly feel how they feel, then exchange thoughts with one another as mutual interest is established. They don't live and die according to the signals from the Other, but can open up a little, sit back, wait for whatever response, enjoy that response (or not) and move along forward together, enjoying the rest of their life in the process. Everything doesn't hang on sentiments needing to be returned or else it's devastation.

I'm with you 95%. I am grateful to hear perspective from someone who has and I presume still is doing the work for emotional health. Your observation that I was backing her into a corner was unpleasant to realize but I see that now and agree with your take.

Perhaps because I am not emotionally healthy, I want to ask this question and perhaps I will not understand or be able to make use of an answer until I am more healthy in this regard but, isn't it normal to feel anxious, excited and precarious at the start of a relationship? If so, what is the healthy way of confirming it is reciprocated and safe to resume growing and nurturing a bond?

My last message to her on Sunday was that when and if she would like to share why she is holding back I would be interested in hearing. Again, that may be co-dependent and needy of me but it also seems reasonable given her surprising lack of enthusiasm in response to my message. Maybe all of this early difficulty is a sign that we are not a good match or I am just not currently capable of handling this appropriately.

Is there an amount of time to wait that would be appropriate to check in and see if I'm totally misunderstanding or should her lack of response speak for itself?

 

[kdt26417]

While I don't think she is against you per se, it does sound a little like you are into her more than how much she is into you. If you're going to pursue this relationship with her, you're probably going to need to slow it down. Unless she indicates differently. And I doubt she will.

I would actually wait several months before contacting her again, unless she contacts you first. If you were the last one to do the contacting, then you may be pushing her by trying to contact her again too soon. Also, you may want to keep it light with her for awhile. Don't ask her to describe how she felt on your last date, just ask her if she wants to do something light and fun.

I could be totally wrong ...

 

[FallenAngelina]

isn't it normal to feel anxious, excited and precarious at the start of a relationship?

Yes - a bit. Unless he is a teenager and new to this kind of intimacy, a fairly balanced person is not overtaken by these feelings and can go about his life unshaken, even with all of the uncertainties of a new relationship. His entire well being does not hang on responses from the Other. Most fairly balanced people focus on the joy, excitement and possibility that comes with a new relationship. The wonderful feelings far outshine the uncertainties.

If so, what is the healthy way of confirming it is reciprocated and safe to resume growing and nurturing a bond?

An emotionally balanced person isn't hyper focused on reciprocation or on signs that it's safe to bond. When a balanced person feels delight and a spark, he is fairly content to just feel delight and a spark. This is what enables people to go slow, hang back and keep it light, as Kevin says. One glaring tell of an active co-dependent is that we lunge for signals that it's safe to feel the way we feel. We are hyper focused on the Other's feelings and we careen between the imagined safety of the reciprocation and the danger of the rejection. We need the Other desperately, one way or the other. An active co-dependent will internally recognize this and fall into this dance with us. A healthy person will rightly be put off by this and walk away.

My last message to her on Sunday was that when and if she would like to share why she is holding back I would be interested in hearing. Again, that may be co-dependent and needy of me but it also seems reasonable given her surprising lack of enthusiasm in response to my message.

Do you see now how her lack of repose to you is not so surprising? When a person ignores your texts and you ask her why she is holding back, you further entrench yourself in need, disempowerment and insecurity. Healthy people will back off (or tell you to F off) when pressed this way.

Is there an amount of time to wait that would be appropriate to check in and see if I'm totally misunderstanding or should her lack of response speak for itself?

Of course, nobody can or should step in for your own intuition, but if a potential love interest does not respond to my text, I'm out. It takes one time. A lack of response in this situation speaks with a bull horn.

 

[powerpuffgrl1969]

Very wise words, Angelina

 

[lunabunny]

Of course, nobody can or should step in for your own intuition, but if a potential love interest does not respond to my text, I'm out. It takes one time. A lack of response in this situation speaks with a bull horn.

Agree totally. If, after a single instance of shared sex, the other person does not respond to a text message, call, or otherwise shows a marked lack of enthusiasm - verbally or non-verbally - they are sending a very clear message.

What exactly IS the message though, in this case? Well, that's up for debate, since they won't answer a simple, direct question. My guess is that the woman concerned is "just not that into you" (or your wife, or both) and this is her way of ending things (essentially "ghosting").

Maybe her primary partner has a problem with her budding relationship with you, or with some other aspect of their relationship, and she has chosen to prioritise their feelings over yours (relationship drama you're best rid of). Or possibly she has no idea who or what she wants, and/or is a manipulative game-player (again, you're better off out of this situation, especially given your self-confessed tendency to co-dependent behaviour.)

 

[Magdlyn]

OR

She is experienced in polyamory. She knows NRE is an enjoyable but hormonal and deceptive frame of mind.

You were all glowy and giddy after threeway sex. It finally happened! You'd almost given up on this woman. She finally came around and did the deed with you and wife.

She has had reservations about you all this time. She may find you charming and desirable on the one hand, but a risk on the other hand, because you are a poly newbie, or because she senses or knows about your mental diagnoses.

But she gave in and fucked you. YOU had a great time. Sometimes threeway sex can be GREAT for one or two of the participants but not so great for one or two of the others. Maybe she doesn't love threeway sex. Maybe she prefers one on one. Most men's #1 fantasy is him in bed with 2 women. This is not women's #1 fantasy.

I don't jump to the conclusion she isn't into you, or is ghosting. She might just be taking her time and going slowly, handling her NRE (if any). Keep up your Al Anon and therapy so you don't come on too strong and scare her away. This isn't her "playing games." This is her being practical and down to earth. This is you getting carried away. That's all I've got to say. FallenAngelina/Karen covered the rest.

 

[Vleit]

Again, I am greatly appreciative of the insights and shares so far. I have not given all the information surrounding this circumstance and I can't tell if that would effect responses or not so I will elaborate on some key points.

After "S" directly asked my wife in a conversation that was between the two of them "do you guys want to have a threesome with me" my wife answered in a way that, to my mind sounded unsure, possibly hesitant and/or disinterested. When I shared my take on her response, and that if I was "S" I would have thought she was turning me down, my wife clarified with "S" and indicated interest in taking things very slowly. This is both my wife and my first experience with this and there are consequences of our relationship, our kids...etc that we want to be respectful of, in addition to the consequences of "her" feelings, needs, wants...etc.

So "S" invited both of us over to cuddle and watch a movie. While cuddling I asked if they would both like a massage. I used one hand on each "S" and "wife". After a while, this moved to erogenous areas. Both S and wife seemed to like it although because my wife is not very demonstrable, it was even hard for me to tell her comfort level where as S seemed to really like it. I stopped and switched positions so wife could be in the middle and feel more included, if she was feeling uncomfortable.

That's as far as it got, no threesome (at least in the sense that there was no intercourse and everything was above clothes).

Now as far as the no response goes, "s" DID respond, but with unrelated almost intentionally avoiding the topic which I had started which was to the effect of, what a magical evening, thank you. I tried to check in with her and that is when it seemed she was either 1) not as interested in me, 2) had things to work out with her primary first, 3) is not a great communicator, 4) has a personal agenda she does not care to share and is not being transparent. 5) has changed her mind...

I realize that the co-dependent aspect of me needs personal work, and it is MY responsibility to address the discomfort I feel in this situation. She recently replied to my wife and I thanking us for giving her time to process her feelings, acknowledging that part of how she works is to take a long time to sit with feelings. She said her feelings from the night were "confusing" because this is a new situation for her. She also said she is excited but reserving energy to navigate and she likes getting to know us and hang out.

Something that Fallen Angelina has mentioned a few times was my boundary crossing by trying to get a feel for where "S" is at with this whole deal. I think it is 100% on the money that I am developing feelings faster and likely more than "S". It is my nature to fall quick and hard, this is part co-dependence but also part that I am a passionate person and I don't do anything half way or at "normal speed". One of the things I disagree with/however, is the sentiment that I scared "S" away because of my message. "S" has numerously approached us in very direct ways, 1) when we first started talking again asking if we were interested in hanging out again because she felt we had good chemistry and a connection. 2) asking how we were doing in our poly journey. 3) asking how wife and I were feeling immediately following our date night. and when I reflect on these times, it just occurred to me that she was never being very clear about her perspective, thoughts, wants...etc. It is like she is collecting information on us but not meeting us half way. Now, is this my unbalanced perspective and it is entirely reasonable for someone, given all of the above information, to not give much of an acknowledgement other than "I'm holding back a bit for now"?

I guess the ultimate conclusion is I have to decide what path to take that will give me and my wife the best possible outcome. I don't want to ghost "S" although I don't get the impression it would effect her much if I just stopped communicating with her. She has, btw, sent me two different messages since that have been completely unrelated to the topic we are discussing.

The rational part of me that want's to empower myself again says "just cut it off, for any number of reasons she is not reciprocating and that is a sign this isn't a good match". I have a lingering doubt, however, that I should take her at her word, give her the benefit of the doubt and apply that she needs space to process before getting into topics of how she feels....although, then I circle straight back to, she doens't have a problem asking me/us direct questions about feelings etc....then again, she is in a tough spot. Like jumping in on double dutch jump rope, she has to time and gauge her response by the signals from both me and my wife. I imagine if I were her I wouldn't want to seem overly into me, for fear I would scare away an up till very recently hesitant and timid wife.

Last on the other hand, my wife is what I would consider movie star beautiful. I can imagine a scenario (which I think is the most likely) in which "S" really likes my wife and I am being used, like chum to get what she wants.

 

[lunabunny]

First of all, thank you for clarifying the exact nature of what transpired between the three of you in a physical sense, as well as the nature of communication that both preceded and followed this one instance of shared physical intimacy.

No disrespect intended, because I can see that the situation you're in is very unclear and confusing, however, at this juncture there seems to be an awful lot of surmising and guesswork on your part when it comes to how "S" is really feeling about you and/or your wife, and not a lot else.

Albeit, this lack of clarity doesn't seem to be your doing, and now that you've explained the situation in further detail, I'm not sure you ARE coming on too strong... but rather, "S" appears to be hedging her bets for her own reasons which she hasn't yet communicated to you (and/or your wife).

I'm not sure what to advise in the absence of any real indication of what's going through S's mind and heart, except to say that poly - when done right - absolutely RELIES on unambiguous communication on the parts of ALL concerned.

This three-way situation seems to have been dragging on for some time now, without making any kind of discernible headway in either direction. Are you alright with that? It seems not, if you're contemplating "ghosting" S by discontinuing communication. Therefore, in my opinion, unless S opens up a little more about what and/or WHO she wants, and in what capacity, you'll remain floundering about in a poly no-man's land and frankly, who has the time?

 

[Vleit]

I’m with you! As far as my ghosting comment, I meant that her under enthusiastic response and delay makes me inclined to just drop off and stop communicating with her. I agree (in theory as this is my first ethically poly experience) that unapologetic and unabashed communication is a must. The issue I have is then, is it pushy or boundary crossing to say as much to her? I’m not eager to have a threesome and I’m fairly apprehensive in anything intimate with her after this recent experience, but I am now considering saying to her point blank, I am only interested in continuing a relationship with her if she is able to communicate clearly and directly about her needs/wants...etc. now, given what I took from Previous comments on here, it seems like she already expressed her interest, capabilities and/or willingness to communicate by not responding directly and then changing the subject.

My feelings are pretty strong on this and also subject to vast oscillation. Even as I write one stance, I instantly take the opposing view. Being that she eventually did comment about not commenting, I wonder if chilling out, give her space and time without any contact from me isn’t the best thing for now. At some point if she brings it up I can share that we would all need to talk about communication styles going forward.

From what I have shared so far, Does saying this or bringing this up seem reasonable at this point or is it painfully obvious to everyone but me, her lack of communication has already spoken volumes?

 

[powerpuffgrl1969]

It is impossible to ascertain what her mindset is at this point. I do think it is in YOUR best interests to just let things lie for now. Don't initiate. This is so you can have time for yourself to recover from the disappointment and apprehension you are feeling.

If she does decide that she wants to have any sort of intimacy between you and/or your wife again, I definitely would, as you said, have a discussion regarding communication styles.

 

[opalescent]

Took me a long, long time to learn this but no response is a response. An ambivalent reply is a response. It's not a clear one but it is a response.

I also prefer to have a clear response from people, especially if sexual or romantic situations are in play. However, I often don't get what I want. Sometimes there are good reasons someone is not as communicative or as clear as I'd prefer. Sometimes there is no obvious reason. I've had to learn to let it go, to tell myself 'It's not about me' and move on. You can't make someone communicate clearly, even if you are clear yourself. It's just not possible (and I have bashed my head against this wall many, many times).

Let it go. If she pops up again in your life, then that would be an opportunity to discuss how you like to be communicated with. But otherwise, just live your life and see what happens.

 

[lunabunny]

I’m with you! As far as my ghosting comment, I meant that her under enthusiastic response and delay makes me inclined to just drop off and stop communicating with her.

Yep, I understood the context in which you meant it.

I agree (in theory... that unapologetic and unabashed communication is a must. The issue I have is then, is it pushy or boundary crossing to say as much to her?

My feelings are pretty strong on this and also subject to vast oscillation. Even as I write one stance, I instantly take the opposing view. Being that she eventually did comment about not commenting, I wonder if chilling out, give her space and time without any contact from me isn’t the best thing for now. At some point if she brings it up I can share that we would all need to talk about communication styles going forward.

From what I have shared so far, Does saying this or bringing this up seem reasonable at this point or is it painfully obvious to everyone but me, her lack of communication has already spoken volumes?

As Powerpuffgrl said, because of unclear and somewhat delayed responses to the texts you sent in the immediate aftermath of the intimate massage session you three engaged in - as well as her ambivalent behaviour in the past - it is impossible to gauge where S's head is at right now in regards to any future encounters with either you or your wife, let alone whether she'd be up for an on-going relationship or any kind.

That said, I believe you HAVE already reached out and asked fairly directly what her feelings are on the matter and she chose to be vague and to disengage or back away - and has told you as much, both verbally and by her (non) actions. Anything more would be overkill at this point, and would not be respecting the boundaries she has communicated (insofar as taking some space).

You, however, have a right to set boundaries for yourself, one of which COULD be "I am not a plaything, willing to be picked up and put down at someone else's whim" - meaning, that IF this woman continues to emotionally and/or physically engage with you ONLY on HER terms (which is her right), but in the meantime she more or less ignores you and your attempts to communicate, then YOU are equally within your rights to refuse to become involved with flaky people who run hot and cold. You could recognise that, emotionally speaking, this is unfair to you and stop doing it.

I agree with both powerpuffgrl and opalescent, below:

It is impossible to ascertain what her mindset is at this point. I do think it is in YOUR best interests to just let things lie for now. Don't initiate. This is so you can have time for yourself to recover from the disappointment and apprehension you are feeling.

If she does decide that she wants to have any sort of intimacy between you and/or your wife again, I definitely would, as you said, have a discussion regarding communication styles.

Took me a long, long time to learn this but no response is a response. An ambivalent reply is a response. It's not a clear one but it is a response.

I also prefer to have a clear response from people, especially if sexual or romantic situations are in play. However, I often don't get what I want. Sometimes there are good reasons someone is not as communicative or as clear as I'd prefer. Sometimes there is no obvious reason. I've had to learn to let it go, to tell myself 'It's not about me' and move on. You can't make someone communicate clearly, even if you are clear yourself. It's just not possible (and I have bashed my head against this wall many, many times).

Let it go. If she pops up again in your life, then that would be an opportunity to discuss how you like to be communicated with. But otherwise, just live your life and see what happens.

People who won't, or simply don't have the skills to communicate clearly for whatever reason, are generally a "bad fit" for polyamory, and some may argue, for anything but casual relationships.

As a person who prefers to have some measure of control over the situations in which I engage, and at least an equal say in any reciprocal romantic/sexual relationships to which I choose to commit, I find dealing with these sorts of people extremely frustrating and anxiety-inducing. Like Opalescent, I've also learned the hard way that it's simply not possible to force others to communicate at the level we prefer. We can, however, control our own responses to their behaviour.

Therefore... IF this woman does eventually reach out and wish to re-engage with you at some later stage, I'd advise against immediately jumping to do her bidding, unless or until she agrees to sit down with you and discuss expectations in regards to communication, as well as exactly what and WHO she is interested in when it comes to you/wife/her (i.e. what she's "up for", or not) and go from there. Until then, just go about your business and try not to invest too much emotional time and energy into this situation.