Living monogamously and missing my "ex"

[AnotherAnon]

Magdlyn,

I'm sorry for the long series of responses and the time it took to get them posted but I thought you deserved a thorough and thoughtful response. You raise a lot of important points and wanted to address them as best I could without defensiveness or avoidance. That has taken a while to do, redo, etc. I skipped down to the first one where I had something other than a simple "I agree" as a response.
Please don't read this with any pre-suppositions about my motives. Please don't interpret my careful phasing or formal style as disingenuousness or a smoke screen. I tried to be very open and sincere in my responses. I hope you are able to read them that way.

...annnd it's too long. this will have to be a two part-er.

She was willing to settle for a guy that didn't treat her well, or communicate ethically, or indeed, be honest with her.

No, you didn't really want that to work. You were lying and playing fast and loose with her emotions. It seems her self-esteem was low enough that she was willing to settle for this bad treatment.

I know as didn’t treat her well in many ways, especially and clearly in regards to this cycle. I don’t attribute her willingness to endure it to low self-esteem. I don’t want to assign, dismiss or disparage her motivations. Especially here where she can’t speak for herself. In the effort to take responsibility for my role I will only acknowledge that she had some issues and vulnerabilities that I understood well and others that I probably didn’t and I’m am sure I must took advantage of some of them. I honestly thought I was not. I sincerely believed I was treading carefully – al least in those emotional spaces, but how could I have not been? All I can/will say is that I know she had her reasons and I hope that at least some of the aspects of the relationship that she was sticking around for that good, not just the result of toxic patterns. I don’t deny that there was toxicity there, that I brought toxicity into the relationship, but I believe that it wasn’t purely toxic. I hope that there were some aspects of that relationship that were positive and good to/for her. I can only hope that she still feels that is true now that I have ended things.

Here is the crux of your issue. In my opinion, you should do both women a favor and focus on learning how to be honest with yourself, speak your truth. I'm being honest. It seems to me, you must get over your inappropriate childhood coping mechanisms to be able to practice ethical monogamy, much less ethical non-monogamy.

Forget couples therapy. You need intensive individual therapy and weekly Al Anon meetings. Are you an alcoholic yourself? If not, you may have another kind of addiction, to women, sex, romance. As you try to run from your own issues, your brain switches from feeling passionate about this, that and the other woman to get that euphoric feeling, running from the uncomfortable painful memories of being an abused and neglected child.

I agree with the statements you make in that section and I had hoped I had shown that in other responses too. I didn’t focus on the work I have to do in on these/my issues my original post as much but I thought I spoke to ways in which I caused and contributed to problems in a way that at least insinuated that I was aware of my responsibility, the harm I had caused and that I would wasn’t wanting to repeat that behavior. I know that I still pose a risk to my current wife, she knows it too, and I know that I will never be fully safe for her but I intend to take seriously the work of getting as safe as I can and I have to believe that I can avoid doing harm like I have done in the past or else I wouldn’t have made the commitments I have. Yes, I’m scared I will still mess it up but if I waited until I felt fully free of these issues, 100% safe for her, for anyone it probably wouldn’t ever happen, at least not for several years. Aspen knows this too and chose to risk it with me. Cassia knew it even better and she wanted to work through it with me as well. I am sure you doubt the wisdom or motivations behind those choices. I know I certainly do but I couldn’t say to either of them that I was going to make a different choice for them.

To answer your questions, I am not an alcoholic. I was worried that I might end up one, given my family history with it, both my parents were, but that’s not my vice. I do, as you suggest, have other compulsive escapes. Mostly video games, or other other video/social media (movies, tv, doom-scrolling – I had to delete TikTock because my life had come to a complete stop, and porn). I don’t like it but I believe you are right that sex or other intimacies have filled that role for me at times as well. I would not put my relationships with either Cassia or Aspen in those categories but others, I think I’d have to. I don’t think it was ever only self-medication or escapism that drove my engagements with women, but some of them they undoubtedly served in those capacities regardless the reason I engaged with them in the first place.

Not a nice way to treat people you "love." Or are "infatuated with."

Again, no arguments. I just want to point you to the clarification I made about my use of the word “infatuated” in my response to OpenBook23. I think used that term in a way that miscommunicated my meaning. You might not care but as you referenced it directly it seems appropriate to mention it.

I don’t like that you felt it was necessary to put the word love in quotes. I don’t like that you think the feelings I believe to be love. I am deeply flawed, clearly, but I still think I’m capable of love. I know it is a love that has come with damaging and toxic behaviors. I wouldn’t ever try to argue that the relationships were good for the people I have/do felt/feel love for. Nor would I deny that my own issues impact the way that I experience and express love in negative ways. But I still think I am capable of love and that it’s love that I feel. I don’t blame you for the quotes and I hope I have acknowledged at least some of the issues that motivated you to use them. I am just expressing how it made me feel to have you dismiss/revoke my feelings that way. I hope that you can understand that without feeling that I am arguing with you about your observations and criticisms, most of which I think are absolutely valid.

 

[AnotherAnon]

Part 2...

It's kind of appalling that you want these women to whom you are lying, and on whom you are cheating, to be "friends." You are triangulating them. Playing out some kind of childhood dynamic, is my guess.

To be clear. I am not advocating for them to be friends. I see why that wouldn’t work. As far as the reason I wanted them to be friends it was two-fold:
1. I think that if I was not poisoning the water they would actually be good friends for each other. Aspen has a lot of sincere admiration for Cassia and I know that Cassia would be an amazing friend to her and I think, vice versa. I honestly think they would enrich each other’s lives if I has never been involved.
2. I thought that if they were friends, it would eliminate my ability to engage with either of them in a deceptive way to the other. I thought if they were talking and open with each other it would leave me less room for deception. I should be able to avoid using deception on my own but I wanted less access to it. Like an alcoholic trying to stop by locking the liquor cabinet.
3. I am not currently lying or cheating with or on either of them. When I admitted that there were some boundary crossings with Cassia since I committed to monogamy with Aspen, that was still several months ago. I have very little communication with Cassia for quite a while and since I told her about the engagement, zero. I have put out messages when I hoped she would find them speaking to how much I miss her but if she’s seen them she hasn’t responded. She’s keeping her distance. I don’t say this to deny that I crossed those boundaries or that I did so recently enough for it to be relevant to this conversation. I only point it out to say that I am speaking to these issues from a place where I am not currently, actively engaged in them and I’m probably on one of my longest “clean” streaks in a long time. I hope I can make it last this time. It seems relevant but it is probably just my ‘good guy’ complex speaking out. I’m trying to fight back the defensiveness that keeps trying to assert itself in this reply as much as I can but I’m a little punch-drunk at this point.

There is no indication they were the "mean and heartless ones"! You must have some kind of charm or bedroom skills to keep them both hanging on to you despite your lying, cheating and manipulation. Have you ever looked up the symptoms of narcissism?

Of course not! I would never, ever suggest that they were. I was trying to say explicitly the opposite. It seemed relevant for the point I was making that they weren’t always unknowing participants but I wanted to make absolutely clear that they weren’t careless ones. I was the deceiver, not them. I was the one that nurtured a space for that to happen. I was the one that made that a stipulation for engagement, not them. The only reason I made the statement you quoted was to shut down any such interpretations before they started.
Regarding whether I have looked up the symptoms of narcissism, I absolutely have, more than once. I’m sure I will again – in fact I know I will again as soon as I’m done with this reply. That’s a fear of mine, I even brought it up in therapy because I don’t trust myself to be able to acknowledge it in myself, as narcissists rarely do.

If you make a real commitment to therapy and work really hard, you might be a decent partner someday. Your self-forgiveness will happen if and when you do learn to be honest and get over your (possible) sex or love addictions, and start behaving ethically. You will be able to be proud of behaving in a decent manner, becoming a better version of your true self, not driven by your outdated childhood trauma coping behaviors.

I appreciate your allowance that I might be able to make improvements that matter. I certainly hope so. I am betting pretty much everything on it. If I prove incapable of doing this right, if I do damage like I have in the past one more time, that’s it.

Because you are incapable of honesty...

I hope it is clear at this point that I unreservedly take responsibility as the primary source of deception and the reason honesty and openness was not possible then. If not, let me say it again here. Yes, agreed, that was almost entirely my fault.

A quick point about compulsive lying just because I don’t want others with the same compulsion to be misunderstood or unduly maligned. Compulsive lying is not an inability to be honest. It is a compulsive behavior, usually a defense mechanism acquired in youth and/or as a result of trauma (as you and others have noted by calling it a childish behavior). It is usually triggered by specific scenarios, or anxieties – in my case the fear of conflict or of disapproval. It’s not a generalized condition like pathological lying. Or what John Luvitz made it look like on SNL. I was able to be honest very often, even some times when the compulsion was strong not to be, but that doesn’t change the fact that I was all too often, not honest – at times and in ways that were extremely hurtful to people I cared about, to our relationships and to myself.

"Infatuated"? That's an odd way to describe loving a woman you've been with for decades. That's another reason I think you have a romance addiction. She is willing to put up with your shit. It sounds like you've basically been emotionally abusing her for decades. And she's fundamentalist and thinks the man has the final say and is in control, so takes this behavior, manipulation and abuse.

Please see the clarification I made in my response to OpenBook23 regarding my use of the word infatuated. It wasn’t meant to be a label that defined my feelings for Aspen, but rather a way to describe the intoxicating feeling we (both of us) sometimes still experience.
Even when she was effectively a fundamentalist she was never one to accept subjugation. She believed some terrible and misogynist teachings but I never asserted any role of dominance and she never assumed one of submission, as many of the people in that faith do. She put up with my shit because there wasn’t as much of it at that time, for one. I was too consumed in my own religious ‘duties’ to spend much time in extramarital engagements. I crossed some boundaries, and tried to hide them but back then that included stuff like watching reality tv shows or looking at porn. I only had inappropriate relationships with actual people a couple times, it didn’t include physical relationships and that was all near the end of the relationship as it was breaking. I don’t say that as an excuse for my behavior. I only point out the timeline to show that she didn’t put up with my shit for long. I did harmful and destructive things, but we weren’t in an abusive cycle of hurt then love-bombing, repeated over and over. There was deception, often about looking at porn or masturbating, then what felt like an honest attempt at ‘repentance’ and a real effort to stop the behaviors, sometimes with months even a year of success before I was ‘weak’ and ‘stumbled’ and would try to hide it again. She would be hurt by those deceptions and it would hurt our relationship and our trust (of course) but it wasn’t part of an abusive cycle or an ongoing manipulation.

Monogamy should NOT be "resigned to." I see that you feel martyred by trying to be a "good person."

I think I have to admit to that. I don’t want to and I haven’t seen it that way thus far but, yes. There is some martyrdom/good guy stuff in there. Thanks for calling that out. I’m going to try to take that out of my narrative going forward.

I agree that monogamy is not something to be resigned to. I think it can be beautiful and it can be healthy between people for whom that is a natural way to be. Give me a chance to try to express the sentiment again without the martyrdom complex:

I am not naturally monogamous. I have committed to live monogamously to be able to be with the person I want to be with. That was a choice I freely made. Yes, I had to resign myself to the fact that I couldn’t live fully authentically in that relationship but that was the price I freely paid – not because I’m a “good person” but because that was the price of admission. I don’t regret it. I don’t resent it. Nobody forced me to make that choice. It’s hard sometimes but so is a lot of things that come with making a relationship work.

 

[AnotherAnon]

Part 3...

When have you ever been fully authentic, as a compulsive liar? You seem to believe your own lies.

Please see my previous statement about compulsive lying behaviors.

Yes I have been fully authentic before. I am not always lying. I can still be honest and vulnerable and authentic, even most of the time. I just have a very hard time doing it when triggered.

Yes, I don’t know that I have ever managed to actually believe one of my own lies before, at least not in the way we don’t all sometimes self-deceive. I lied to myself for years that I was a “good guy” and it allowed me to ignore so many of the ways that I wasn’t acting ethically many times. I don’t think that’s a result of compulsive lying. Compulsive lying is when you hide that you are messaging, flirting, sexting with someone on Tumblr, it is also being unable to admit it even when caught doing it, when there is no hope of maintaining the deceit, being driven to try to anyway rather than be caught in the lie. Again, not defending it, just clarifying it. If this was an effort at defense, I would really want to leave that last part out – the bit about trying to maintain the lie when caught. It is particularly awful and probably the most harmful. That’s the behavior that leads to things like gaslighting. I have been guilty of that as part of my compulsion and it’s inexcusable. I hate knowing that I did that and I hate how easily I might slip into doing it again. I came dangerously close just a few weeks ago. I hope that I managed to stop myself is a good sign that I’m making at least some improvements.
I don’t think I’m lying about anything in this thread, but I could be. Which lies are you seeing that you think I’m believing in myself?

Of course.

Yes, of course. It is not the kind of thing that just stops because “this time, it’s for real”. I don’t defend it or excuse it. I wish I could say that the toxic cycle simply stopped for both of us but that’s not how anything works. It has been quite some time, though since we stopped communicating, maybe not the longest - but close, which is partly why I’m missing her so much right now, I think.

Why did you bother marrying her again? What the heck was the point? Your kids are grown. You have a terrible track record of relationships. You're still a compulsive liar. Did you think having a piece of paper "committing" you to a legal marriage would heal your psychological issues?

There is a LOT of complexity involved in the answer to this question, including some discussion on my views around the tradition of marriage in the first place. She and I spent a long, long time talking about the kind of commitment I could honestly and truly make as part of our vows. Absolute honesty was not one of them. But a commitment to keep working on myself, and never stopping in my effort to reduce the compulsion’s influence on me was. I don’t think the piece of paper has any real power outside of the legal system. I think the commitments I made, the expectations they established do, even if only for accountability but hopefully for more than that.

Sure. You just "love" the ladies.

There are those quotation marks again.

You feel so sorry for the woman you've abused. Did your parents do that? Abuse you when drunk, and then apologize and buy you gifts? It's a typical cycle, common as can be.

That’s not the cycle I was engaged in with any of the women I have been with. Hurtful, destructive, selfish – yes. SO many times. Sometimes with apologies and attempts at reconciliation after but just as often shame, withdrawal and reclusion. I rarely asked to be forgiven or did the love-bombing after having been caught cheating or lying. Usually I would disappear and only reengage after loneliness or fear of their hatred forced me to, or they would reach out for reconnection. Sometimes I would maintain my withdrawal even when they would try to reconnect and offer forgiveness or acceptance. There is still plenty of blame for me in this, there were other destructive cycles - absolutely, just not the one you are talking about.

Yes, you "believe" it, and yet you don't believe it, and know you shouldn't believe it. You are lying to yourself. Fuck the "causes." She makes your dick hard, and you want your supply.
Dude, of course it will!

Yes, she does and yes, I do - but that’s not what this is about. I could get that fix (or try to) without re-engaging in the community. It’s something that we’ll almost assuredly have to navigate if I do. I expect it will be difficult and dangerous. That’s the truth. Part of why I don’t know if/when I can re-engage and to what extent. That’s not martyrdom complex talking, it’s just facts and consequences of my actions and choices - no one else’s.

Words. Do the work.

That’s all I have here. I have been doing work and I have a LOT more work to do - obviously, I didn’t intend to appear as if I thought any differently.

Poor kids. What you must have put them through. Perhaps you cycled with them through the abuse/remorse cycle as well.

There are two sets of kids in this situation. The kids I had with my current partner during our first marriage and Cassia’s, who I grew close to, engendered attachments with, and miss desperately as well. My offspring are doing ok. They have been very slow to emotionally invest in this relationship working out. When we first started reconnecting, they were against it. They are more invested now but they are still reserved and it will be a while before they fully do, if ever. The ones that keep me up at night and drive some of my deepest shame spirals are the kids I left behind. I made sure they knew I was always here for them if they wanted and maintained contact with some for a little while but that just softened the inevitable. I left them. I abandoned them. This is not martyrdom here either – shame may not be most constructive response but it’s not going anywhere anytime soon and unlike a martyr, it’s not put on me by anyone other than myself and an awareness of the impact of my own actions. It’s not serving anyone. There is a aspect of self-punishment, yes, and there will be – for a long, long time.

Get help.

If you think I need to be told to get help, that I wasn’t already aware of the need for it, then I will say it again, here. I know I need help. I have been working with help and I will work to get further help. Nothing I have said here is an attempt to deny or diffuse that. I just hoped someone would have experienced having to end contact with someone before they were ready and could share thoughts and experiences. I came here partly as a way to re-direct the impulse to reach out to the person I am missing. I’m working at fixing what I can accepting what I can and changing those destructive patterns that have helped put me in the place I am now. Not that I would have been able to be in a healthy, polyamorous relationship with Aspen and Cassia. No amount of ethical behavior or honesty would have made that a possibility at this point. But maybe I could have preserved some level of a safe and healthy relationship with Cassia and her kids if I had not destroyed everyone’s trust so completely. My actions. My consequences. My mess. My work. I just miss her/them. That’s all. It just hurts.

 

[AnotherAnon]

Good for you in trying to return to individual therapy. You seem more prepared to "own" it.

Hopefully on her own end of things? Aspen gets to that place over time and becomes willing to "own" her stuff also.

There is likely going to be...

• Your stuff you are responsible for and only you can address
• Her stuff she is responsible for and and only she can address
• "Our stuff" both of you share responsibility in. And both of you have to address.

I can understand that.

It's part of getting to the place where you can name the thing and OWN it.



Al-Anon sounds like it was a "stepping stone" in your journey, but past that, it may not be the the right tool or fit for you today.

And that's ok.

This sort of layered thing isn't solved overnight. It may take many tools over time.

I don't know if Recovery International is appropriate for you like another stepping stone thing while you are trying to sort insurance and get back to individual therapy.

Perhaps reading about non-violent communication, meditation, doing things for stress relief. Cleaning the bedroom, new bedding, and maybe trying a weighted blanket for better quality sleep?

There isn't a magic bullet. But sometimes taking some micro-actions and making some micro-changes while waiting on larger changes sometimes helps you get started.

Esp improving quality of sleep. It's hard to do anything if sleep is not great.

GG

Thank you for all of that.

I was unaware of International Recovery. I am checking that out now. I have also found SAMHSA just now as well which looks like it has some good resources as well - https://www.samhsa.gov/

I had done some exploration of Rational Recovery / Smart Recovery a while back but not in reference to myself. I hadn't been looking at recovery programs at all as a resource, at least not for many years (still unwilling to accept that it could apply to me, I guess) until this conversation. They might be a better fit than I was willing to admit. I'm definitely going to explore that. I'm grateful for the gentle, and some not so gentle, suggestions that have pushed me to give that a serious look.

 

[GalaGirl]

Most welcome.

There are many options -- it's not just AA type things. Some of this early stuff for you is going to be kind of like poking your head up to ask and see "What's around here? What's available to me?"

Not everything will apply or work for you. But maybe view it like just checking stuff out.

CODA could be another thing to look at if it applies here.

Could check if you have a NAMI. This page has the locator on the front page side bar and there's virtual events too.

Maybe 211.

https://www.211.org/get-help/mental-health

Sometimes college students do work under the supervision of a teacher so the community gets more metal health helpers for free or sliding scale. And they get practice in the field for school credit. Could call any nearby schools to see if any of that is going on in their psych departments.

A friend of mine is a social worker and she's got the "cheat sheet" for local resources in town. I'm USA so you might have to dig a bit if you live in another country. But there's is stuff out there. SOMEONE somewhere has "the cheat cheat" for where you live. YKWIM?

And even if you don't live there, if a useful website has PDFs and things you can read and use in their resource section, why not?

GG