Living monogamously and missing my "ex"

[AnotherAnon]

Hello,

I looked for a thread about this already and there are some that are adjacent or touch on similar themes I didn't see any that addressed this specifically, so apologies if this is redundant.

There's nothing to be done with this, at least that I can see, so this is essentially just a post to share my feelings but advice and

I'm in poly and in a monogamous relationship with someone who is accepting of the fact that I'm poly but not really able to understand it as they are VERY mono. On top of that, I have done a lot of damage to the trust in our relationship in the past specifically around maintaining boundaries in relationships outside this one. On top of that, even though they have left much of their upbringing behind, their intensely repressive religious upbringing still has a large influence on their spaces of emotional comfort and their views of what's healthy in relationships. So not only am I living in a fully monogamously physically but also there isn't a lot of ways for me to express aspects of being poly without making them feel uncomfortable or insecure. But, I still adore them, we have great kids together and I love the way all we live, laugh and love (sry - couldn't help it) together the vast majority of the time. I had been divorced from them for many years and recently we have reconnected and remarried and I made the commitment to live monogamously knowing that wasn't who I was, but I was willing to do it. All the joy the relationship holds for me was worth having to deny that part of myself. We went into this knowing that we weren't going to be on the same page but I was going to make it irrelevant for her and she was going to be as open as possible to my attempts at finding a safe way to at least give some kind of expression if not life to this part of myself.

One way in which I experience love, is particularly problematic for my partner. I never really stop loving anyone. I still have strong feelings for, and attraction to, my highschool sweetheart even though I haven't seen them in many years. I still love the first woman I dated after the divorce and I still love the woman I was with for several years prior to reconnecting with my current wife, and whom I dated off and on while actively reconnecting and developing relationship with the person I'm with now. There was a lot of back and forth for a while there and most of it was done unethically and deceptively on my part, hense some of the trust issues I mentioned before.

So, my partner will never feel comfortable with me having any level of intimate relationship, platonic or not with anyone I could also be attracted to but she feels especially threatened by any contact with my last partner.

So...

It's my fault and my choices that put me in this situation and I wouldn't give up what I have with my current married partner BUT... I miss my last partner. I miss her kids. I think of her all the time. I want to talk to her and visit her and the kids, even fully platonically, or at least effectively platonically. I want to tell her I see how well she's doing and all the good she's accomplishing. I want to talk to her about causes we share that my current partner do not. I just miss her. We live in a relatively small city and if I was out being social or engaging in the community like I used to (and would like to again) I would absolutely run into her, often.

But I can't really express that to anyone. My partner knows it's true. We've talked about a few times and it comes up again often enough when we have reason to discuss my former partner. There are no illusions that I've moved on ...or whatever. But knowing it's there and seeing it, hearing about it, being confronted with it is something else and seeing how my partner reacts in the few times we do talk about it tells me all I need to know about how uncomfortable she is with it.

So I never bring it up. I suppress those thoughts/feelings as much as I can. My partner may know I miss my "ex" but she won't know how deeply or how often I think of her. I want to tell my "ex" all the time how much I miss her, I want her to know how much she still means to me even but I can't and it would help them if I could. I have dreams about them, sometimes wonderfully sexy ones - she was an absolute genius as a lover but I just have to masturbate those thought away, too.

I knew it was going to be hard but its especially hard right now.

I guess I was hoping I'd find some folks here that can relate since I don't have any other people I can talk to about it.

Thanks for listening
W

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle. Would you consider giving these folks fake names for readibility if you are still in the edit window? Like generic colors (Red, Orange, etc) or plants (Fern, Daisy etc) or whatever? You know who you are talking about. But it's hard for me to follow -- possible other readers.

Correct me if I get it wrong, ok? It sounds like basically you divorced and then a few years later remarried your old wife.

And wife has some stuff in her background like religious upbringing that makes it hard for her to deal with you having loving feelings still for exes.

You still care about and love

• You high school ex
• Your first GF after the divorce
• Another GF after the divorce that you dated for several years before remarrying your wife again.
• For a time you were dating both of them at the same time without your wife knowing that? Or the GF knowing that? Like you were cheating on the GF with the wife? Or the GF was fine with poly but you left the wife in the dark about that? Some kind of something there since you say it wasn't ethical and you know it.

Today? Your wife is not comfortable with you being close with any exes, especially the last GF.

And you miss that last GF and wish you could be exes and friends with her. How long ago was the break up? When was it? You aren't like hitting some bday, anniversary, break up date or similar so she's popping up in your head like "holiday trigger?"

You seem to recognize that you have made a choice, and this isn't a grief you can share with your wife.

I get missing an ex a lot.

Wishing you could be exes and friends.

But you and wife have new agreements to keep in Marriage 2.0.

AND the ex may have moved on and not share this desire to be exes and friends. They may prefer plain exes.

I guess you could start a blog thread here and write out it or journal in some other fashion. And/or think about seeing a counselor so you have a safe space to process this and get to express your feelings.

I don't know how recently you remarried. Maybe couple counseling to help transition there would be helpful. Esp if you have needs going unmet or are going around bottled up. And wife still has past religious stuff to detangle. Not sure why you skipped dealing with these things BEFORE remarriage, but could catch it up now.

My own exes? I'm only in touch with my fav one and even then it's only at the "holiday cards" level once a year or less. We don't live in the same town so I don't have this problem...

We live in a relatively small city and if I was out being social or engaging in the community like I used to (and would like to again) I would absolutely run into her, often.

What's wrong with you just being out socializing and engaging in your community like you used to? Like get on with your life?

And being basic polite if you bump into the ex at the store or whatever? Like "Good morning, hi" stuff but not getting deep into anything? The same polite you would do the the store clerk?

If all these changes are recent, then you may simply need more time to lay it to rest. If you behaved poorly/unethically? You may also need time to make peace with that and forgive yourself.

Galagirl

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

God I am so anxious for you. But you've really thought this through.

My only fear for you is that your guilt over your acknowledged betrayals might influence how... obliged you feel to "do the right thing" to your detriment.

That's why I often remind people that although they did break agreed boundaries, the thing they did wouldn't be wrong in all relationships.

I think I do that because I saw a lot of situations early on where a person would make an agreement based on the belief that it was the right and ethical way to do things. Later they'd find out that other people do it differently. Then there would be a lot of conflict around the desire to change this boundary. One partner would feel the mere desire to want to change it is a problem. The other would feel controlled by their partner's reluctance to "change the rules". Either or both of them could become extremely toxic in the way they try and get their way.

I think if I were you, I'd want my wife to have the mutual understanding that this might not work for either of us forever, and that's okay. We might need someone compatible in this way to feel fulfilled at some point. And that's okay. I think that would help me relax and enjoy the moment.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

You don't have to answer any of these questions, but I am curious as to how the answers would affect my interpretation.

Are the kids you have with Wife from the first time you were married or this second go round?
How long were you with her the first time? How long have you been with her this time? How long were you apart? Why did you divorce?
Why did you and most recent ex break-up? Because you reconnected with your Wife? How did Ex take this?
Were you practicing ethical poly in any of your relationships? Or do you consider yourself poly because you still love your exes?

My husband "still loves" his exes but doesn't really consider himself poly per se - more "poly-flexible" when it comes to relationship structure. But, both he and I consider monogamy to mean sexual fidelity - which he is fine with and I am not. (But, also, he is grey-ace and I am a hedonist so... ). "Emotional fidelity" may be a concept that your Wife identifies with/desires (without necessarily having the vocabulary to discuss) - some people are more devastated by an "emotional affair" than by a purely sexual encounter. Our cultural conditioning that conflates sex and love is a complicating factor, in my opinion, but others disagree. These are two separate concepts, for me, sometimes they happen to coincide...other times they occur independently - which is also fine.

JaneQ

 

[Magdlyn]

It sounds like even though you identify as polyamorous, you have done a lot of unethical dating, cheating, to be exact. So your past wife, now your wife again, does not trust you even to go out and about in town, because of a chance you'll run into your most recent ex and do more unethical things, cheat, again.

And so, you are an outgoing guy who would like to be out doing things, promoting your "causes," but you don't, for fear you would be running into your ex (whom you still love), or actually working with her on said "causes." And then you'd want to have deep personal discussions with her and get yourself all riled up sexually, since you're still fantasizing about her sexually anyway.

I hear you love your wife and living and laughing with her. But on the inside, you seem to be crying. I do think you made a bad choice to recommit to your monogamous wife, to the point of vowing to be monogamous yourself, while knowing deep inside you are NOT mono and it is killing you to not be able to talk about it. Why did you do that to yourself?

I agree with GG that therapy would probably help a lot. You're not the first person to carry a torch for former lovers. Talking about this with a therapist might help you to move past the intensity of your feelings, and again be able to get out and more involved in life without fearing you will break the rules of your monogamy again. You seem deeply conflicted.

 

[AnotherAnon]

I'm sorry you struggle. Would you consider giving these folks fake names for readibility if you are still in the edit window? Like generic colors (Red, Orange, etc) or plants (Fern, Daisy etc) or whatever? You know who you are talking about. But it's hard for me to follow -- possible other readers.

Correct me if I get it wrong, ok? It sounds like basically you divorced and then a few years later remarried your old wife.

And wife has some stuff in her background like religious upbringing that makes it hard for her to deal with you having loving feelings still for exes.

You still care about and love

• You high school ex
• Your first GF after the divorce
• Another GF after the divorce that you dated for several years before remarrying your wife again.
• For a time you were dating both of them at the same time without your wife knowing that? Or the GF knowing that? Like you were cheating on the GF with the wife? Or the GF was fine with poly but you left the wife in the dark about that? Some kind of something there since you say it wasn't ethical and you know it.

Today? Your wife is not comfortable with you being close with any exes, especially the last GF.

And you miss that last GF and wish you could be exes and friends with her. How long ago was the break up? When was it? You aren't like hitting some bday, anniversary, break up date or similar so she's popping up in your head like "holiday trigger?"

You seem to recognize that you have made a choice, and this isn't a grief you can share with your wife.

I get missing an ex a lot.

Wishing you could be exes and friends.

But you and wife have new agreements to keep in Marriage 2.0.

AND the ex may have moved on and not share this desire to be exes and friends. They may prefer plain exes.

I guess you could start a blog thread here and write out it or journal in some other fashion. And/or think about seeing a counselor so you have a safe space to process this and get to express your feelings.

I don't know how recently you remarried. Maybe couple counseling to help transition there would be helpful. Esp if you have needs going unmet or are going around bottled up. And wife still has past religious stuff to detangle. Not sure why you skipped dealing with these things BEFORE remarriage, but could catch it up now.

My own exes? I'm only in touch with my fav one and even then it's only at the "holiday cards" level once a year or less. We don't live in the same town so I don't have this problem...



What's wrong with you just being out socializing and engaging in your community like you used to? Like get on with your life?

And being basic polite if you bump into the ex at the store or whatever? Like "Good morning, hi" stuff but not getting deep into anything? The same polite you would do the the store clerk?

If all these changes are recent, then you may simply need more time to lay it to rest. If you behaved poorly/unethically? You may also need time to make peace with that and forgive yourself.

Galagirl

Thanks for the suggestions about pseudonyms. I'll edit or at least start using them from here on out.

And since other responders have asked for clarification, I'll offer a summary timeline.

I was married to my high school crush, "Aspen", and zealously religious (a recent convert) for about 13 years. Early 20s-mid 30s. We had a few kids together.

I went through a a-theistic awakening, de-conversion. I left the faith and religion altogether and it was really hard on the marriage in many ways and while the religious differences didn't destroy the marriage it was a catalyst and eventually we ended it and divorced. The kids were early elementary to kindergarten ages.

For another dozen years Aspen and I shared custody 50/50 and we actively co-parented the kids. I had a couple serious relationships during that time, the longest and deepest of which which was with "Cassia." As much as I loved and admired Cassia, I never could fully embrace and engage in the process of building and deepening the relationship and from issues we both brought to the relationship, over time, a problematic on/off cycle developed.

Over the last few years of those dozen years Aspen and I reconciled some differences and grew closer. I started thinking *maybe* Aspen and I had a real chance of making things work again, but there was a lot to overcome for that to happen and sometimes it seemed to be working and other times it seemed hopeless. All the while Cassia was actively trying to keep me engaged and invested in a relationship with her and I wanted that to work as well.

So I ended up bouncing back and forth between them a couple times and the horrible way I managed that situation did a lot of harm to both of them and to both relationships. I'm a compulsive lier - a defensive mechanism from a childhood in an abusive alcoholic home and tension and conflict creates a unreasonable and desperate panic within me. Not a good issue to have when working within what has become a competitive and adversarial dynamic. They knew about each other and while I was able to be open sometimes about the status of my engagement with each of them, to each of them but there were lots of times I wasn't. I cheated and lied. I wanted to have a fully open relationship where they would be in communication with each other I wanted them to be friends (they really could be) but Aspen (still deeply influenced by a waning faith and intensely monogamous) could only see Cassia as a threat/opponent and so Cassia (more open to a non-traditional relationship structure) had little choice but to see Aspen the same way. They would both knowingly and actively engage with me while I it was known that I was involved in relationship-building with the other. Not because they were mean or heartless but they didn't want to let go either. I take full responsibility for the damage I did and no, I probably won't ever be able to forgive myself for it. They also actively worked to keep me engaged even when they knew I was with the other. It was a classic example of the worst, practically stereotypical, toxic triangle.

Eventually I had to give up on any hope that we could have any kind of open and honest shared relationship and was forced to choose (something I should have done from the beginning - it should have been clear to me that was the only option but I couldn't let go of the hope there was a way, and I did a lot of damage with that effort). I chose Aspen, the mother of my kids and the person I was perpetually infatuated with. I formally ended things with Cassia and engaged in working with Aspen to make a monogamous relationship work.

We worked at it and we came to a place where we thought we could make it work. I resigned myself to living monogamously and chose the opportunity to be with her over the life that would allow me to be fully authentic as a person who is poly.

Cassia and I have had a few communications that violated boundaries since I "ended" things but once Aspen and I decided to get married, I finally fully shut that down and Cassia has respected that. That was months ago.

I'm married now.

I'm realizing how persistent my love for Cassia and for all the people I've loved is. I am missing Cassia intensely right now and while know that's part of the cycle we cultivated, I also know I will never be down missing her, because I still miss and still love "Lemon" and "Sapling" - the other serious relationships I've been in throughout my life as well as others from less serious relationships. What I don't know is how intensely these feelings for Cassia will be as they persist. I have regrets and shame for how I handled it and how I treated her, which intensifies my feelings of tenderness and affection for her.

Cassia is amazing. She's doing so much good in the social and activism spaces I have withdrawn from. If I reengage there I will inevitably be working with her. I would like that very much and I actually believe I could maintain the boundaries (a fully unreasonable and unsupported belief) with her in those interactions but I worry it will be painful and anxious for Aspen or Cassia, maybe both.

So I am fully responsible for the place I'm in. I'm responsible for making it worse with the harm I've done. I am with Aspen, recently married, and my kids are cautiously excited and hopeful that we will make this work. I am truly happy and excited to be with Aspen. I love her deeply and I'm grateful she is has given me yet another chance. And I am missing Cassia. I'm missing her amazing kids I had close relationships with. I am having dreams about her, some sexual intense, some just emotionally intense. I am deeply sad that I can't ever be with her again in any kind of intimate way, either romantically or platonically. I am beginning to think I'll always going feel this way, and can only hope for it to fade over time.

 

[AnotherAnon]

You don't have to answer any of these questions, but I am curious as to how the answers would affect my interpretation.

Are the kids you have with Wife from the first time you were married or this second go round?
How long were you with her the first time? How long have you been with her this time? How long were you apart? Why did you divorce?
Why did you and most recent ex break-up? Because you reconnected with your Wife? How did Ex take this?
Were you practicing ethical poly in any of your relationships? Or do you consider yourself poly because you still love your exes?

My husband "still loves" his exes but doesn't really consider himself poly per se - more "poly-flexible" when it comes to relationship structure. But, both he and I consider monogamy to mean sexual fidelity - which he is fine with and I am not. (But, also, he is grey-ace and I am a hedonist so... ). "Emotional fidelity" may be a concept that your Wife identifies with/desires (without necessarily having the vocabulary to discuss) - some people are more devastated by an "emotional affair" than by a purely sexual encounter. Our cultural conditioning that conflates sex and love is a complicating factor, in my opinion, but others disagree. These are two separate concepts, for me, sometimes they happen to coincide...other times they occur independently - which is also fine.

JaneQ

Jane,

I think I answered most of those questions in my reply to GG. I am bad at writing clearly and succinctly so I apologize if I the answers are obscured in there. Let me know if you still have questions about the history.

I'll answer a couple more directly here.

1. Was I practicing ethical poly in any of my relationships? No really, no. In my relationship with my "ex" - I named her Cassia in my reply to GG. We did try to practice ethical poly to some degree but I had done enough damage to the trust there that it was difficult and I was not healthy enough or experienced enough to practice it well. We had some successful experiences but towards the beginning and again near the end with "Aspen" it was definitely not.

2. I know I'm poly because of how I organically approach relationships and engagement with people. I know even non-poly people carry torches and grieve lost loves but I feel this is different. In the case of the ex's, the love feels more active and current, like I'm still with them but it's just circumstances that keep us apart and I organically tend to develop romantic and intimate relationships with new people while never losing the connection with people I'm in relationship with already. I don't feel jealousy at all (I know you can be poly and deal with jealousy). I honestly love the idea of all my partners also having other loves in their lives. I want to give love and receive it freely and I want the same for everyone else. That's why I think I'm poly.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Yes, I'm VERY scared I will struggle to keep boundaries because of that and I will end up hurting her again, the kids, but I would have done that if I had backed out anyway and I have hope I am in a better place and I will be able to succeed this time (based on zero evidence). There's pain, hurt and damage in all options. This one seemed to minimize that for most people involved and also gave me a chance to try to be with the woman I've loved the deepest and the longest. That was the rationale.

The Math doesn't compute here.

If you left, you'd devastate the family and then everyone would adjust to the new normal. We know people do it even when they absolutely hate each other. You two don't hate each other, clearly. (1 hurt)

The way you've chosen has opened up the possibility of you devastating everyone more than once if she continues to take you back. There will possibly never be a new normal. You devastating the family could become the norm because she takes you back but you're still unfulfilled, so do it again. (1+ hurts).

 

[AnotherAnon]

The Math doesn't compute here.

If you left, you'd devastate the family and then everyone would adjust to the new normal. We know people do it even when they absolutely hate each other. You two don't hate each other, clearly. (1 hurt)

The way you've chosen has opened up the possibility of you devastating everyone more than once if she continues to take you back. There will possibly never be a new normal. You devastating the family could become the norm because she takes you back but you're still unfulfilled, so do it again. (1+ hurts).

I won't let *that* (repeated attempts) happen at least and neither will Aspen. She understands where I am with ALL of this. If she were to read anything I've written here, and she probably will at some point, the only thing that *might* be new is the intensity of my missing of Cassia as expressed here, but that's the focus of the post, that's the experience I'm grappling with so it's placed front and center and highlighted, but even that probably wouldn't be a surprise.

This is my only shot at this with Aspen. Neither she, I or the kids would endorse us coming back to this again if I screw it up.

So it is the same number of hurts - either I stopped this before the marriage or I break it after. The problem is magnitude. It could be a much deeper and damaging one. OR maybe, just maybe, as Aspen grows and broadens her exposure to expressions of love and different experiences of relationship while continuing to de-construct the ideas and mindsets imposed on her through her intense religious upbringing, *maybe* she will be able to see the love I feel for others less as a threat, and allow some gentle and open exploring into that space which will soften some of those boundaries and therefore lessen the threat (hopefully) posed by engagements with others. I'm NOT counting on that. I married her as she is, not for who I hope she will be. But there are some paths I can see that offer hope that this whole thing isn't doomed.

 

[AnotherAnon]

It sounds like even though you identify as polyamorous, you have done a lot of unethical dating, cheating, to be exact. So your past wife, now your wife again, does not trust you even to go out and about in town, because of a chance you'll run into your most recent ex and do more unethical things, cheat, again.

And so, you are an outgoing guy who would like to be out doing things, promoting your "causes," but you don't, for fear you would be running into your ex (whom you still love), or actually working with her on said "causes." And then you'd want to have deep personal discussions with her and get yourself all riled up sexually, since you're still fantasizing about her sexually anyway.

I hear you love your wife and living and laughing with her. But on the inside, you seem to be crying. I do think you made a bad choice to recommit to your monogamous wife, to the point of vowing to be monogamous yourself, while knowing deep inside you are NOT mono and it is killing you to not be able to talk about it. Why did you do that to yourself?

I agree with GG that therapy would probably help a lot. You're not the first person to carry a torch for former lovers. Talking about this with a therapist might help you to move past the intensity of your feelings, and again be able to get out and more involved in life without fearing you will break the rules of your monogamy again. You seem deeply conflicted.

Magdlyn,

Agreed on all counts, especially the unethical dating. You summed it up much more effectively than I did.

We tried couples therapy once so far as we approached the decision to get married. We worked within that process for a little while and earnestly but it was a bad fit with the provider. We will be getting another and we will be working through much of this going forward.

I have been in therapy myself on and off and it's clearly time for me to be back on.

-side note: I hate how hard it is to get access to good counselors and therapists, even with "good insurance." The lists I have to pick from are horrible and outdated and the process of getting with a good therapist that also understands issues like polyamory or religious deconstruction, etc. Is hard enough without having to work with a list of practices that are mostly closed or not taking patients.
-end rant

As to why I did this, I think that I knew I'd be in the same boat either way, I'd be with one and missing the other. The intensity of my affection for my wife, along with the fact that we have kids together, now grown but still very close means that I'll be maintaining a relationship with her no matter what and that relationship has to be positive and constructive makes me think that this was the best place to be even if this was the monogamous relationship and the other would have been more accepting of exploring poly relationship structures. Yes, I'm VERY scared I will struggle to keep boundaries because of that and I will end up hurting her again, the kids, but I would have done that if I had backed out anyway and I have hope I am in a better place and I will be able to succeed this time (based on zero evidence). There's pain, hurt and damage in all options. This one seemed to minimize that for most people involved and also gave me a chance to try to be with the woman I've loved the deepest and the longest. That was the rationale. It's clearly flawed but it's the best I thought I could manage.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello GoneApostate,

I see that you still love and care about Cassia. You have deep, tender feelings for her, and maybe in your heart of hearts, you wish that Aspen would be more understanding, so that you could have a full and comprehensive relationship with both Aspen and Cassia. And maybe on some level, you are holding out a hope that the good people on this forum will reassure you that someday Aspen will understand, that someday you and Cassia will be back together again, if you just hang in there, and keep trying to restore Aspen's trust in you.

I think the key here, is for Aspen to overcome her religious programming. If she can do that, then maybe she might (eventually) soften up to the idea of you interacting with Cassia. In the meantime, I am sorry that you are caught in a situation where you are torn between two wonderful women. I hope Polyamory.com has been of some help to you so far.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

I was married to my high school crush, "Aspen," and zealously religious (a recent convert) for about 13 years in my early 20s-mid 30s. We had a few kids together.

I went through an atheistic awakening, deconversion. This was really hard on the marriage. Eventually we divorced. The kids were then kindergarten to early elementary ages. For another dozen years, Aspen and I shared custody 50/50.

Diverging religious beliefs can definitely break up marriages, especially when the couple has been in some kind of high-demand fundamentalist religion and one spouse leaves it.

I had a couple serious relationships during that time, the longest and deepest of which which was with "Cassia." I never could fully embrace and engage in the relationship.

And here is one place where practicing ethical polyamory or indeed, being able to be a good partner at all, crops up.

From issues we both brought to the relationship, a problematic on/off cycle developed.

She was willing to settle for a guy that didn't treat her well, or communicate ethically, or indeed, be honest with her.

Over the last few of those dozen years, Aspen and I reconciled... grew closer. I started thinking *maybe* Aspen and I had a real chance of making things work again. Sometimes it seemed to be working and other times it seemed hopeless. Cassia was actively trying to keep me engaged... I wanted that to work.

No, you didn't really want that to work. You were lying and playing fast and loose with her emotions. It seems her self-esteem was low enough that she was willing to settle for this bad treatment.

So I ended up bouncing back and forth between them. The horrible way I managed that situation did a lot of harm to both of them.

I'm a compulsive liar, a defensive mechanism from a childhood in an abusive alcoholic home.

Here is the crux of your issue. In my opinion, you should do both women a favor and focus on learning how to be honest with yourself, speak your truth. I'm being honest. It seems to me, you must get over your inappropriate childhood coping mechanisms to be able to practice ethical monogamy, much less ethical non-monogamy.

Forget couples therapy. You need intensive individual therapy and weekly Al Anon meetings. Are you an alcoholic yourself? If not, you may have another kind of addiction, to women, sex, romance. As you try to run from your own issues, your brain switches from feeling passionate about this, that and the other woman to get that euphoric feeling, running from the uncomfortable painful memories of being an abused and neglected child.

They knew about each other. I was able to be open sometimes... But there were lots of times I wasn't. I cheated and lied.

Not a nice way to treat people you "love." Or are "infatuated with."

I wanted to have a fully open relationship... I wanted them to be friends... Aspen could only see Cassia as a threat/opponent. Cassia saw her the same way.

It's kind of appalling that you want these women to whom you are lying, and on whom you are cheating, to be "friends." You are triangulating them. Playing out some kind of childhood dynamic, is my guess.

They would both knowingly and actively engage with me while it was known that I was involved in relationship-building with the other. Not because they were mean or heartless, but they didn't want to let go either.

There is no indication they were the "mean and heartless ones"! You must have some kind of charm or bedroom skills to keep them both hanging on to you despite your lying, cheating and manipulation. Have you ever looked up the symptoms of narcissism?

I take full responsibility for the damage I did. I probably won't ever be able to forgive myself for it.

If you make a real commitment to therapy and work really hard, you might be a decent partner someday. Your self-forgiveness will happen if and when you do learn to be honest and get over your (possible) sex or love addictions, and start behaving ethically. You will be able to be proud of behaving in a decent manner, becoming a better version of your true self, not driven by your outdated childhood trauma coping behaviors.

They also actively worked to keep me engaged even when they knew I was with the other. It was a classic example of the worst, practically stereotypical, toxic triangle.

Eventually I had to give up on any hope that we could have any kind of open and honest shared relationship.

Because you are incapable of honesty...

I chose Aspen, the person I was perpetually infatuated with.

"Infatuated"? That's an odd way to describe loving a woman you've been with for decades. That's another reason I think you have a romance addiction. She is willing to put up with your shit. It sounds like you've basically been emotionally abusing her for decades. And she's fundamentalist and thinks the man has the final say and is in control, so takes this behavior, manipulation and abuse.

I formally ended things with Cassia and engaged with Aspen.

We worked at it. I resigned myself to living monogamously

Monogamy should NOT be "resigned to." I see that you feel martyred by trying to be a "good person."

I chose the opportunity to be with her over the life that would allow me to be fully authentic, as a person who is poly.

When have you ever been fully authentic, as a compulsive liar? You seem to believe your own lies.

Cassia and I have had a few communications that violated boundaries since I "ended" things.

Of course.

Once Aspen and I decided to get married, I shut that down, months ago.

Why did you bother marrying her again? What the heck was the point? Your kids are grown. You have a terrible track record of relationships. You're still a compulsive liar. Did you think having a piece of paper "committing" you to a legal marriage would heal your psychological issues?

I'm realizing how persistent my love for Cassia is. I am missing Cassia intensely right now. I still miss and love "Lemon" and "Sapling," as well as others.

Sure. You just "love" the ladies.

What I don't know is how intense these feelings for Cassia will be. They persist. I have regrets and shame for how I handled it and how I treated her, which intensifies my feelings of tenderness and affection for her.

You feel so sorry for the woman you've abused. Did your parents do that? Abuse you when drunk, and then apologize and buy you gifts? It's a typical cycle, common as can be.

She's doing so much good in the social and activism spaces I have withdrawn from. If I reengage there I will inevitably be working with her. I would like that very much. I actually believe I could maintain the boundaries (a fully unreasonable and unsupported belief).

Yes, you "believe" it, and yet you don't believe it, and know you shouldn't believe it. You are lying to yourself. Fuck the "causes." She makes your dick hard, and you want your supply.

I worry it will be painful for Aspen or Cassia.

Dude, of course it will!

I am fully responsible for the place I'm in. I'm responsible for making it worse with the harm I've done.

Words. Do the work.

I am with Aspen, recently married, and my kids are cautiously excited and hopeful that we will make this work.

Poor kids. What you must have put them through. Perhaps you cycled with them through the abuse/remorse cycle as well.

I am truly happy and excited to be with Aspen. I love her deeply and I'm grateful she is has given me yet another chance. And I am missing Cassia. I'm missing her kids. I am having dreams about her, some sexual intense. I am deeply sad that I can't ever be with her again in any kind of intimate way. I am beginning to think I'll always going feel this way.

Get help.

 

[Openbook23]

Magdlyn may sound harsh, but she's not wrong. From a poly perspective, this all seems a bit ick, because it's missing a lot of the 'ethical' aspects (ok, it's missing all of them). You seem really centered on what YOU want. I don't hear a lot about what your partners want or need. You seem aware that you haven't always given them that, but your statements are still about you and what you want.

It's a message board, so there will be some of that. But I'll just focus on one part of what she noted above---the word 'infatuation'. Infatuation is a rather shallow emotion. There's nothing wrong with it! Don't get me wrong. I feel infatuation towards my partner that I've been seeing for a few months. It's great! All that NRE. But more importantly, I feel love--I feel commitment. I feel that what she wants and needs are as important as what I want. If I thought our relationship was bad for her, I would talk to her about it. If we both thought this was the case, we would end the relationship. That's what mature adults do--they CARE for their partners. That's not infatuation; it's something much more.

You keep mentioning how you don't think doing what you want would be good for these women. Hold that thought. Lean into it. Work on yourself first and foremost, and then you will be the best partner.

 

[AnotherAnon]

Hello GoneApostate,

I see that you still love and care about Cassia. You have deep, tender feelings for her, and maybe in your heart of hearts, you wish that Aspen would be more understanding, so that you could have a full and comprehensive relationship with both Aspen and Cassia. And maybe on some level, you are holding out a hope that the good people on this forum will reassure you that someday Aspen will understand, that someday you and Cassia will be back together again, if you just hang in there, and keep trying to restore Aspen's trust in you.

I think the key here, is for Aspen to overcome her religious programming. If she can do that, then maybe she might (eventually) soften up to the idea of you interacting with Cassia. In the meantime, I am sorry that you are caught in a situation where you are torn between two wonderful women. I hope Polyamory.com has been of some help to you so far.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Thanks for the kindness.

I am a little surprised at how surprised I am by your phrasing about me being "torn between two women." I don't feel torn at all. I fell remorse and grief and some resignation but that is the cost of the decisions I've made and actions I've taken. I am also hopeful, excited and gratful. I am fully engaged in the effort to making this work as is. I will always have some hope that Aspen's position on this will shift, and that I will grow into a healthier and more trustworthy partner, but I'm committed to making this work without that. I am committed to giving this everything I can even if Aspen fully rebounds to her intense religious beliefs. I will do everything I can to make us work as long as I can without actually participating in or supporting something harmful - as some of those beliefs are. I owe her and the kids at least that much. I also owe it to Cassia to not engage with her and perpetuate the cycle no matter how much she or I might want that sometimes and no matter how tenacious that desire proves to be.

I don't hope that anyone here will soften that reality for me, I am just hoping for some honest and helpful insights and feedback and maybe some commiseration. I appreciate how much of all of that I have already gotten.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more info.

If this is the goal?

I don't feel torn at all. I fell remorse and grief and some resignation but that is the cost of the decisions I've made and actions I've taken. I am also hopeful, excited and gratful. I am fully engaged in the effort to making this work as is. I will always have some hope that Aspen's position on this will shift, and that I will grow into a healthier and more trustworthy partner, but I'm committed to making this work without that. I am committed to giving this everything I can even if Aspen fully rebounds to her intense religious beliefs. I will do everything I can to make us work as long as I can without actually participating in or supporting something harmful - as some of those beliefs are. I owe her and the kids at least that much. I also owe it to Cassia to not engage with her and perpetuate the cycle no matter how much she or I might want that sometimes and no matter how tenacious that desire proves to be.

And on her side Aspen will also be doing her work and doing all she can so Marriage 2.0 goes better?

Then you might consider individual therapy to address these things and heal your traumas. As well as helping you make a strategy -- cuz it sounds like you may need more than individual therapist alone. But they could be first to help you plan and organize for the rest to come.

I'm a compulsive lier - a defensive mechanism from a childhood in an abusive alcoholic home and tension and conflict creates a unreasonable and desperate panic within me. Not a good issue to have when working within what has become a competitive and adversarial dynamic.

You saw how these behaviors affected your relationships with Aspen and Cassia in the past. Well, Cassia is now out of the picture. But Aspen is now your wife again. If you want Marriage 2.0 to go better?

Kids don't get a lot of coping tools when trapped in a wacky home. But you are now out of that home and you are an adult. So it's time to put away these habits from childhood and learn a different way of going/living/being.

You could get to individual therapy to help you. I don't know if Al-Anon could also help, along with marriage counseling. Perhaps other tools. Your stuff goes beyond what internet people could help with.

Since you sound like you need a collection of plans laid out in some kind of strategy order because you have various layers of things going on? Each one needing to be addressed?

I encourage you to think about an individual therapist if you can avail yourself. They can help you identify all the puzzle pieces and which parts need to be done first and in what order. Along with other tools/professionals you may need to help you.

Depending on the ages of the kids -- I don't know if family therapy needs to be a puzzle piece in there as well.

Galagirl

 

[AnotherAnon]

Magdlyn may sound harsh, but she's not wrong. From a poly perspective, this all seems a bit ick, because it's missing a lot of the 'ethical' aspects (ok, it's missing all of them). You seem really centered on what YOU want. I don't hear a lot about what your partners want or need. You seem aware that you haven't always given them that, but your statements are still about you and what you want.

It's a message board, so there will be some of that. But I'll just focus on one part of what she noted above---the word 'infatuation'. Infatuation is a rather shallow emotion. There's nothing wrong with it! Don't get me wrong. I feel infatuation towards my partner that I've been seeing for a few months. It's great! All that NRE. But more importantly, I feel love--I feel commitment. I feel that what she wants and needs are as important as what I want. If I thought our relationship was bad for her, I would talk to her about it. If we both thought this was the case, we would end the relationship. That's what mature adults do--they CARE for their partners. That's not infatuation; it's something much more.

You keep mentioning how you don't think doing what you want would be good for these women. Hold that thought. Lean into it. Work on yourself first and foremost, and then you will be the best partner.

Thanks for the honesty. Sincerely. I will be responding to Magdlyn's post more thoroughly later and I agree she makes good points, not pleasant ones but no, she's not wrong on almost everything she said.
A quick note on my use of the word "infatuation": And apologies in advance for a long-winded, over-explained, multi-hyphenated explanation/definition of a word and concept that everyone understands well. I only offer it because it seems necessary in my effort to resolve a misunderstanding (introduced by my poor explanation earlier) about the situation and/or my understanding of it.

I don't mean to use infatuation it as way of describing the whole experience of my love for Aspen. It isn't fleeting or shallow, it's not only infatuation. I hoped that would be made more clear from the rest of the context but I know am a weak communicator especially textually.
I only meant to refer to one aspect of the experience, albeit a prevalent one. The kind of giddy, overwhelming and intoxicating experience that early love can have, when it IS more shallow and mostly based on attraction. The kind of feeling that makes everything they do seem hilarious or brilliant, every mannerism sexy, graceful, or adorable. The kind of feelings that for better or worse tend to overshadow all those pesky red flags or more sober thoughts, like you’re drunk on their pheromones or something. That experience tends to be temporary and fade over time, hopefully to be replaced by a deeper, better grounded, more reliable and secure love that is still joyous but more sober and better informed. More smolder, less inferno.

In this case I’m trying to convey that the deeper, more sober love is there – including the awareness of trouble and issues, at least I think it is. However, and in a way that seems special, that experience of infatuation seems persistent as well – coinciding with, not conceding to, the more stable and steadier experience of love. That intoxication persists or maybe is renewed would be more accurate. I just hope that it isn’t overriding some of the sobriety needed to see and overcome pitfalls.

Does that make sense?

 

[Evie]

I get it. Not all of it since I don't have the same religious background, but I get the desire to be able to reconnect with former lovers, and their kids.

When I first spoke with Adam about opening our marriage (which had slipped into the default of closed amidst NRE and wedding planning) one of my greatest motivations was "I miss my friends" (with benefits).

I had a variety of people whom I had previous intimate connections with, whom I loved in ways that hadn't drawn me into monogamous relationships with them, and I really wanted to be able to foster those relationships again, spend nights as we used to. Right from first meeting Adam I told him that I don't have hobbies, I have people. Not huge numbers of them, but enough. I missed them very much.

Fortunately, Adam was the kind of person who, with a little bit of work, was able to accept this evolution of our marriage. I hate to imagine how we would have lived if he had not.

I don't have the same friends as I did then. Two people I wrote about early in my blog here have become distant (one my choice, one theirs). Another two have died. I have newer people now, but because of where I live and how taxing my job is and my declining health because of that and age, my circle has not grown to what it once was.

You mentioned that you still love many exes, but the most recent one is with the most intense feelings. It sounds like you are still grieving her, her kids, yourself as you were with her. Have you considered grief counseling? If it's not fading with time enough to become unobtrusive, some deliberate therapy might help.

Was it unresolved grief that also led you to marriage 2.0?

 

[AnotherAnon]

You mentioned that you still love many exes, but the most recent one is with the most intense feelings. It sounds like you are still grieving her, her kids, yourself as you were with her. Have you considered grief counseling? If it's not fading with time enough to become unobtrusive, some deliberate therapy might help.

Was it unresolved grief that also led you to marriage 2.0?

That's an interesting point. I did recognize that I was grieving and I did recognize the need for personal counseling/work/therapy but somehow I hadn't put them together to consider the need for grief-counseling specifically. Thank you for that suggestion. I think that is something I will explore more centrally and less tangentially going forward.

And yes, I do think it played a role in marriage 2.0 but I hope it was not an obfuscating one.

 

[AnotherAnon]

Thanks, agreed on pretty much all counts. More detailed responses below.

And on her side Aspen will also be doing her work and doing all she can so Marriage 2.0 goes better?

Then you might consider individual therapy to address these things and heal your traumas. As well as helping you make a strategy -- cuz it sounds like you may need more than individual therapist alone.

Right now, Aspen is in the throes of navigating a deconversion that she's not fully ready to commit to or engage fully in. I think that therapy will help her with that as well as with how to engage with me in a way that is healthier for her, maybe helps protect her from some of my BS, but that’s so fully and completely her personal, individual journey – especially the deconversion (or potential deconversion, I should say) that I hesitate to even suggest it to her. I still did, early on as we were working out plans and approaches to this and engaging in couple’s therapy. She’s not in personal therapy now and she’s reticent to engage in it for reasons not un-connected to the self-protection aspects intense, high-demand religion can instill in it’s adherents but I expect she will overcome that before too long.

You saw how these behaviors affected your relationships with Aspen and Cassia in the past. Well, Cassia is now out of the picture. But Aspen is now your wife again. If you want Marriage 2.0 to go better?
Kids don't get a lot of coping tools when trapped in a wacky home. But you are now out of that home and you are an adult. So it's time to put away these habits from childhood and learn a different way of going/living/being.

I absolutely recognize that these behaviors have done enormous and likely permanent damage to my relationships in the past. I doubt I will ever truly understand the full depth and breadth of the that damage but I won’t ever deny responsibility for it - at least I hope not.

Yes, it is long past time for me to have these childish coping tools still active in my interactions. I have been in therapy for them and to do some of the healing needed to reduce the fears and panic responses that trigger the behaviors. It wasn’t that long ago that was able to even accept and apply this horrific label “compulsive liar” to myself, let alone begin work in earnest on its origins and triggers. It’s not an excuse but the word compulsive in this specific instance is often misattributed as some sort of persistent preference, not a triggered and uncontrolled defensive response. For stupid insurance reasons I had to interrupt that therapy a while ago and tried to continue the work on my own but I am actively working on trying to get back at it with professional help, insurance or not.

You could get to individual therapy to help you. I don't know if Al-Anon could also help, along with marriage counseling. Perhaps other tools. Your stuff goes beyond what internet people could help with.

Since you sound like you need a collection of plans laid out in some kind of strategy order because you have various layers of things going on? Each one needing to be addressed?

I encourage you to think about an individual therapist if you can avail yourself. They can help you identify all the puzzle pieces and which parts need to be done first and in what order.

Depending on the ages of the kids -- I don't know if family therapy needs to be a puzzle piece in there as well.

I did a lot of Al-Anon and Al-Ateen when my mom was getting sober the first time. I didn’t find it very helpful but still I kept with it for a few years - “It works if you work it”, right? It helped opened me up to a more sincere form of self-reflection and gave me a lot of language for the process I was lacking prior to, but ultimately I found it mostly unimpactful. I have since learned a lot more about the 12-step programs and how unsuccessful they are from a statistical standpoint – despite of how ubiquitous they are. I have also been in and out of therapy at different points in my life but I don't know that I have done so with the level of sincerity and vulnerability required to make that time effective. I only recently have I able (maybe willing) to look at some of these harmful behaviors for what they are. Cassia deserves a lot of credit for helping me get as far as have - she was largely responsible for helping me see and helping push me to open up about some of these issues with my therapist at the time. I will continue to work on them. I am hopeful that something like CBT might prove more effective for me personally, at least in regards to this issue specifically.

I completely agree that I still have a lot of work to and I need help to do it well. I am better equipped to tackle some of these issues than I have ever been before (I hope) and will be re-engaging in therapy and focusing on these issues as soon as I can get a new provider.

The kids are all adults now and were mostly all adults during the last few years. They have also had therapy at various times. Right now they are all pretty regular participants. They appear to be doing pretty well - not that everything is perfect or that I would know everything they are dealing with but I do have a pretty close relationship with them and do hear (with a couple notable exceptions) a lot about how they are doing and when they are struggling. Nonetheless I hope they will, and encourage them to, keep therapy as a regular part of their lives, even when they feel like they don’t have anything to “work on”. We have invited them to do family therapy with us if they would like but they don’t feel the need to do that and they don’t want to deal with the awkward that would come with it unnecessarily.

 

[GalaGirl]

Good for you in trying to return to individual therapy. You seem more prepared to "own" it.

Hopefully on her own end of things? Aspen gets to that place over time and becomes willing to "own" her stuff also.

There is likely going to be...

• Your stuff you are responsible for and only you can address
• Her stuff she is responsible for and and only she can address
• "Our stuff" both of you share responsibility in. And both of you have to address.

It wasn’t that long ago that was able to even accept and apply this horrific label “compulsive liar” to myself, let alone begin work in earnest on its origins and triggers.

I can understand that.

It's part of getting to the place where you can name the thing and OWN it.

I did a lot of Al-Anon and Al-Ateen when my mom was getting sober the first time. I didn’t find it very helpful but still I kept with it for a few years - “It works if you work it”, right? It helped opened me up to a more sincere form of self-reflection and gave me a lot of language for the process I was lacking prior to, but ultimately I found it mostly unimpactful.

Al-Anon sounds like it was a "stepping stone" in your journey, but past that, it may not be the the right tool or fit for you today.

And that's ok.

This sort of layered thing isn't solved overnight. It may take many tools over time.

I don't know if Recovery International is appropriate for you like another stepping stone thing while you are trying to sort insurance and get back to individual therapy.

Perhaps reading about non-violent communication, meditation, doing things for stress relief. Cleaning the bedroom, new bedding, and maybe trying a weighted blanket for better quality sleep?

There isn't a magic bullet. But sometimes taking some micro-actions and making some micro-changes while waiting on larger changes sometimes helps you get started.

Esp improving quality of sleep. It's hard to do anything if sleep is not great.

GG