LizziE Learning as She Goes

I have been feeling like that "we're two small siblings" feeling lately, with all the "It's not faaaaaaair!" going on. The first time she did it (however long ago) my first thought was "What's we're like Jon's kids and it's up to him to make things 'fair'? Are you kidding me?"

I've been mulling over it the last day, and I decided that from now on, when Lora says "It's not faaaaaair!" I'm going to say "Then do something about it other than complain. Or, if you want to complain, don't do it to me, I'm not interested." in a cool (but not nasty) voice.

I'm sort of muttering that in my head to myself, because that's one of the ways that I prepare for conflict - if I'd had time to think something through, and prepare (or if it's a kind of conflict I've dealt with before), I'm really good with conflict, because I can just smoothly transition in to whatever I practiced. When conflict comes up unexpectedly, sometimes I get really flustered and just shut down. I'm working on having a few stock responses to Lora (and practicing them) so that when certain reoccurring situations come up, I can say something calmly and civilly that makes it clear either how I feel, or that I don't want to be involved with it.

I had mentioned earlier that Jon is working both the days that I'm free this week, though he's not working one of the days that Lora is free (which is today). It's been...I'm feeling increasing insecurity and sadness and jealousy, because all I've heard about for the past day is all the plans they made for today. When I feel that way, I generally take the time to feel that, and be OK with myself feeling it, and remind myself that things change and that there will be times when Lora sees Jon more than I do, and vice versa. That's life. It's OK. And it's OK to be sad about the times when I barely get to see him.

It also reminded me that awhile ago (like a few months after we first moved in, I think), Jon has asked me to not mention plans that he and I make together when Lora is around and doesn't have a day (or as many days) with him as I do, because it upsets her. I'm just going to disregard that from now on, because 1) I'm sick of treating Lora with kid gloves 2) She's not a fucking child and should learn to handle her jealousy and 3) If it's OK for her to bring up stuff they're doing together in front of me, the reverse should be true.

I don't plan on rubbing her face in it or anything, but there have been times when I've wanted to ask Jon about something we're planning on doing when Lora was around, but I didn't, because I knew she's get upset/jealous/unhappy if I did - sometimes I then totally forgot to bring it up (because I tried to make a mental note to ask him something later and forgot) and that resulted in us not doing something because we missed a booking window. But if I brought it up in front of her, she's have a little fit, and take it out her feelings on Jon. Which if he doesn't like, he's going to have to need to take up with her, because I'm tired of dealing with this shit.
 
I think taking off the kid gloves is an excellent idea. Throw her into the grown up pool and she'll either sink or swim. Even if the situation with her doesn't improve, I think you'll feel more peaceful if you don't feel like you have to coddle her or walk on egg shells any more. I'm sorry you have to deal with this. It sounds incredibly stressful :(
 
As I mentioned previously, Jon is working all this weekend, so I'm going to barely see him. We're supposed to have plans to spend time together in the park today, after I get off work.

I did some private journaling earlier today, and I realized that I really don't want to see him right now. This is part of what I wrote:

Why bother being supportive to Jon? He’s going to take any energy and positivity and strength that I give to him and waste it all on Lora.

Why bother being supportive to Lora? She’s just going to take any energy and positivity and strength that I give to her and squander it, use it to not deal with her problems, just suck it up and waste it like a giant good-feeling-and-energy vortex. Give her chances, support and encouragement, she eats it up and spits out negativity, jealousy, emotional immaturity, and just whines for more.

I think that actually sums up entirely how I feel. Those last two statements. That’s why I don’t particularly want to have anything to do with Jon right now. I knew how I was feeling about Lora. I knew that I felt antagonistic towards Jon too, deeply so. I didn’t entirely know why. But that’s it. Any good moments we have together, any positivity, and strength that I give him, he takes it and gives it to Lora and she just wants more and more and more. It doesn’t feel like it comes back to me anymore. I don’t feel any better because all I see when I look at her is a powderkeg waiting for a spark. A powderkeg that is more than willing to make its own spark if none is forthcoming. I see her as a crazymaking person - I think she thrives on the drama. I have thought for a while that a goodly chunk of her histrionics are caused or supported in part because that is a way to get attention on her. It’s a way to have all of Jon's attention. It’s been a way to get my attention.

The part of me that doesn’t want to see Jon is the part that is completely and utterly sick and burned out on this situation and anybody closely associated with it. That includes him, for the times that he’s enabled her, the times that he’s defended her, the times that he’s put up with the most ridiculous fucking shit from her and acted as though it’s all just minor normal relationship issues. The part that had me halfway convinced that *I* was going crazy when I looked at the shit she does and didn’t think it was OK and was confused and freaked out that he kept acting like it WAS all OK.

I’m not really sure what to do about tonight. Or about Jon. A part of me in kind of...there’s a little spark whispering “don’t let her win. don’t let her take him away”. Except that I know it’s horseshit; he’s agreeing to this himself. He keeps putting up with her garbage. He keeps on giving her chance after chance after chance. He’s the one who somehow decided in the past year that he saw their relationship go from being "long term but not life-long" to wanting to spend the rest of his life with her. With his abuser. With someone who takes out her negativity on him over and over and over and twists him and demands he do things and tries to control him and twist him entirely into her own personal puppet, punching bag, and need-fulfillment machine. He is a WILLING PARTICIPANT.

He’s taking himself away. He is taking himself away.

***
So maybe I'll just work late tonight. Or if not work late, at least hang out at work until late. Until Jon leaves for work and Lora goes to bed, so I don't have to look at either of them and feel sick.
 
I suddenly had this thought. I was in the middle of working, and it just popped out.

Wednesday night, Jon admitted to me that he DID know how bad it was, but that he hadn't wanted to talk to me about it.

How long was he aware that it was bad, and that I thought it was bad, and continued to downplay my concerns?

How long was I thinking I was being crazy, or unreasonable, because he kept brushing off everything I was saying, but he knew that it was bad?

If he'd have started pushing Lora to get therapy, or pushing back against her when he first realized it was bad, would we be in the terrible place that we are now? Would we have either gotten to the point where she'd have been in therapy and making progress for awhile, or refused therapy/stopped going and we realized that she really never was going to get better?

Does her abusing him mitigate his responsibility to look at his relationship problems and face them squarely? We talk about how abuse victims shouldn't be blamed for "allowing the abuse to go on", which I understand. Once someone comes forward and admits to being abused, there can be a long, hard road of recovery for them. Piling on more guilt by implying (or explicitly saying) that they are culpable for their own abuse would be fucked up.

But what does that mean in a poly situation? What does it mean when his head-in-the-sand approach exposed me to her abuse for longer than he may have, if he'd have gotten when he realized it was bad? And what does it mean when he still is squirrely about the word "abuse"? He admits that it's "bad". He admits that Lora needs help. He admits that she has said and done abuse and controlling things, but mostly in the abstract. He doesn't really seem to directly face up to the fact that she's abusing him and trying to control him.

How does this relate to domestic abuse issues where a whole family is involved, but not all abused? Like if one parent abuses the other, but doesn't abuse the children - other than them witnessing the abuse? How does it differ, me being an adult?

I am so angry right now. So angry about so many things.
 
Jon and I ended up emailing last night, and we sorted out a few things. I'm going to break them down into a few posts.

First, his denial of things that were abusive and shitty dynamics that I was calling out.

He did not understand at first why I was upset. He wrote me an email that said "I am confused. Lora has agreed to go to therapy, and I agreed with you that she is doing really shitty things, but you seem more upset. I thought you would feel better. Am I missing something?"

Oh yes, Jon. You are.

We had a step by step conversation where I pointed out to him that if every time I come to him with concerns, he downplays them, then I am going to get verbal cues from him that he does NOT think that they are important. This is going to cause cognitive dissonance for me, because he is generally an intelligent, emotionally smart person, and these were abusive things, but if he's downplaying them, ARE they abusive? Am I crazy? I might as well not bring them up, because every time I do, he says they're not a big deal. Maybe *I'm* the problem. Or maybe he's been so abused by Lora that he no longer sees abusive things as abusive.

How can I know? I can't know, unless he tells me that these things are a problem.

He held off on telling me that they were a problem because he didn't want to complain about them to me.

He didn't want to *complain* about them to me. Because admitting someone is being shitty (at the least) and abusive (at the most) to you is complaining?!

We straightened out that it wasn't. So he didn't want to tell me because he felt like he would be complaining. Why would it be complaining? He didn't think I thought they were a big deal.

Because I didn't bring them up anymore.

Because every time I did, he said they weren't a big deal.

So every time he said they weren't a big deal, I was likely to bring them up less. Because he said they weren't a big deal.

And then because I brought them up less and less, this reinforced to him that they weren't a big deal to me.

Aha! Then he understood. And now we are clear.

They are a big deal to me. They are a big deal to him. They need to stop.

We both agree on this.

My brain feels so much better.
 
Next: Lora saying before that she hadn't had therapy ever, and then now saying she did, and that it didn't work.

Turns out that when Lora said she'd never done therapy before, she meant as an adult. As in, "legal adult". She wasn't counting the therapy she had as a child or an adolescent when she said she hadn't had therapy. So she had therapy multiple times for her anger and axiety, and it was terrible, and it didn't work for her at all. She felt it was a giant waste of time and money.

I emailed Jon the following:

If Lora has tried therapy and it didn't work, that is a giant red flag. When Lora and I were emailing about this she wrote two things that deeply concerned me.

1) She said that she was going to couples therapy with Jon to gain confidence in their relationship

2) She said she's worried that therapy will bring things up that she doesn't want to revisit and will not revisit for any reason.

About #1, I wrote to her that ALL the therapy in the world would not help her if she doesn't take ownership for the part that is HER problem. Her insecurities are HER problem. They are NOT a relationship problem, and couples therapy will NOT build her confidence in her and Jon's relationship. The only person who can do that is HER.

For the second one, I didn't write back, because...I just didn't want to. I didn't see a reason to. Because I know that therapy will bring up painful things for her. Probably those things that she doesn't want to face. But in order to get better, she has to face all that really awful stuff.

If she cannot do that, she will not get better.

So reading those things that she wrote, coupled with her continuing abusive and controlling behaviors cause me to believe that she is truly not willing to do the things she must do to get better - especially if she HAS tried therapy before and it failed (multiple times. I can see getting a shitty therapist. Or two. I've had shitty therapists. But like, all of them? I have doubts).

The entire time that Jon and I have had a relationship, we have been trapped in cycles where the problems might get a little better, but they always backslide. Always. Or they turn into other problems. Her texting and/or calling Jon constantly? We've gone through that cycle several times. Times of quiet and times when the two of them are fighting nearly all the time and she's saying awful things to him? We've gone through that several times. Times when she's monopolizing Jon's time and he has to lay down rules to her about that? We've gone through that several times.

Now we're in another quiet period. In theory, it'll be different this time, because Jon and Lora are going to couples therapy, and we're all going to solo therapy.

But given knowledge of the past, I'm worried that Lora is going to refuse to deal with her problems in therapy and then be convinced that therapy doesn't work and blame it on bad therapy instead of admitting that she doesn't want to face her problems.

I pointed out to Jon that Lora is supposed to love him. But he couldn't convince her to get therapy (he told me during this email exchange that he tried a number of times, and she consistently refused). It took the big blow up between the three of us where I told her that if she didn't get therapy, we couldn't live together anymore in order for her to agree to get therapy. Why did she agree to that? Probably because she's smart enough to realize that

1) She has been heard being abusive and shitty multiple times to our shared partner
2) It is completely reasonable for me to say I'm not living with that
3) She knows that JON hates the way she talks to her, and she knows that she can no longer say things to him like "you're as shitty to me as my drug-addicted ex" because he told her that if she didn't stop, he WOULD end their relationship.
4) Therefore, it is her fault - her abuse - that makes it unable for us to all live together and is also something that she knows that Jon hates about their relationship
5) If those things are true, will Jon break up with her, because she "ruined" everything?

(No, he wouldn't. At least, I don't think he would. But he might take it as a huge blow to his relationship potential with both of us. Maybe it'd have given him a wake-up call to how awful she is. It's one of the few ones he can get, since nobody else knows about how she treats him because she doesn't want him talking about his relationship with her to anybody)

So, she agreed to get therapy. Which changed from her getting solo therapy to getting couples therapy. Where (I pointed out to Jon) she can blame him for problems that are squarely on HER, and try to direct the therapist to work on Jon, instead of working on Lora.

So I really don't think therapy is going to help. Everything I see, and hear, and read that has to do with her tells me that it isn't going to help. She doesn't truly want it to help.

That said -

If I assume it will help, and it doesn't, things will hurt even more than they do now.

If I assume that it will NOT help, and it does, then I will be pleasantly surprised and amazed and grateful.

This is how I manage my expectations of these things.
 
Lastly - where do we go for now, if we're going to continue to live together, while I pretend that therapy may convince Lora to get better?

I laid out some ground rules for Jon that I needed, in order to keep living together. He agreed to all of them.

The rules:


1) Even when I seem totally happy and content, it does not, for a moment, mean that I believe that anything has gotten better. What it means is that I'm doing my best to exist in the good moments and enjoy them. Jon should not take me looking happy and comfortable to mean that this has all blown over. It has not, and it will not, until Lora starts making concrete progress towards being less abusive, dependent, and controlling.

If he wants to know if I'm feeling better, he needs to ask me, point blank. No more assuming it's all fine because I don't look miserable.

2) I will be calling Lora on certain bad behavior from now on. Like when she says something is unfair.

For example, the other week: she said it was unfair that I got to see Sherri (our friend visiting from the other side of the country) and she didn't.

I don't "get" to see Sherri. I contacted Sherri to make plans with her. Lora needs to be told that if she feels something is unfair to her, she needs to take steps HERSELF to fix it. Not expect me (or Jon) to invite her along, or make things happen for her.

As a side note, when she does that, it sounds less like she ACTUALLY cares about the thing/person itself, and more about the fact that I'm doing/seeing someone/whatever that she isn't. Which is a really icky feeling, because then it appears that it's less about us each doing our own thing and being happy and more about making sure that I never get something that she doesn't get. That is not OK in poly. Or anywhere, really.

I will do my best not to call her out meanly. I will not call out every little thing. I will call out the things that my gut says "extremely not cool. don't say around me. don't want to hear it".

FTR, pretty much anything that starts out as "it isn't fair!" is going to get called out. Life isn't fair. Whining doesn't make it more fair. It just annoys the shit out of me. And also, it's a sign of poor self-help abilities that could use a nudge (or a kick) in the right direction.

3) I'm definitely going to spend less time at home. I might start doing some sleepovers at bunch of friend's places, especially on the nights that Jon is working late and/or not sleeping with me. I think that'll help keep me more balanced.

4) I will do my utmost to respect that Jon feels like everything that could possibly be done to make it work hasn't been tried. I can see, rationally, why he feel that is so (emotionally, I disagree, for many of the reasons that I've already outlined, like those recent emails between Lora and me). On a rational level, I don't disagree with Jon. Therefore, I need to do my best to step back and see how that goes.

5) If it gets to the point where I can no longer rationally see that everything hasn't been tried, I will communicate that to Jon. Because when my rational side is no longer able to agree with that, I know that it will get exponentially harder for me to continue to try to keep going.



****

Them's the rules
 
actually - one last thing...

Yes, I did write that my rational mind understood why Jon hasn't given up. From a standpoint of "X has not been done yet. X helps people. I will not give up until we try X", I can see it.

However, if X starts to represent things that are ridiculous (like say, an exorcism), then X will no longer be a rational reason to keep trying. Hence Rule #5.

Also, for the record, my rational mind is currently saying "you're an asshole Liz, stop pinning ridiculous scrabbling-for-any-reason-not-to-give-up bullshit on me. You're giving me a bad name and you own me a pint of that amazing small-batch merlot sorbet that I've been craving as compensation"
 
Things were quiet this weekend.

Lora and I didn't talk much, but when we did, and she tried to go off on a rage tangent about something we were talking about (without letting me finish talking), I held up my hand and said "Wait, I am not doing. Let me finish", which she clearly didn't like, and I clearly didn't care about, since I don't feel like being interrupted anymore.

And then when she went off on said rage tangent, I said I totally disagreed and that's not how I would handle something at all. Which caused her to blink. And ask me how I would handle it. So I told her. And she said "Oh" and walked off. Which is I think maybe her being bothered that I totally disagree with her. Can't say I care much.

I had a bit of deep frustration with Jon, as I didn't see him all weekend (literally all weekend, as he worked from 2pm-2am Friday night/Saturday morning, 10am-2am Saturday, and noon-10:30pm Sunday). This weekend, he (thankfully) doesn't work Sunday or Friday and starts work at 4PM on Saturday, but next weekend, he works the same insane work schedule, which I hate so much. It's just...nothing really can be done about it, it's just HARD.

In other poly news, I think I mentioned that I wanted to see Issi more, who has been a friend/romantic interest for quite a while. We had some things going with her partner Jared for awhile (fun threesomes mostly), but I feel like with my hiatus, my feelings for him have mellowed some, but I really want to see her one-on-one. So we made a date for this Wednesday, at lunch and we're planning on getting together with a few other friends to do crafting (and Issi and I will probably do some makings out) in a few weeks. In the meantime, I think I'd like to see if she wants to try to see each other either once a week or once every two weeks.



I wrote a lot in another thread about mental illness and Lora:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74269

I am mulling over the things discussed there. The biggest things on my mind from that thread are:

1) Making my exit plan

2) How much of Lora's "good behavior" (I don't know what else to call it) at the beginning of us living together was her putting on a "best face first" kind of mask.

On the first, as I wade through the details myself, I think I see a bit about what has Jon so panicked. If we split homes, I will be responsible for the move of my stuff (plus some of Jon's). I can coordinate all the things myself. I've done that before. I'll have to do my own home searching, but I have friends who live in the area we'd move to, and I know they'll help me out (they know we're moving that way anyways, and volunteered to). I have a good support system.

Jon will have to do the same for him and Lora. I don't think (based on how I've seen her do other things) that Lora will be helpful at all; chances are good that she'll freak out about stuff, and pout, and generally make everything harder. Any apartment they look at, she'll fixate on little details about what she hates. I know she doesn't want to live with anybody but Jon (Jon had lived in a 2 bedroom when Lora moved in with him, and she HATED that he had a roommate). But without a roommate, Jon will be paying a lot more money in rent. And it doesn't seem like Lora will pitch in any time soon.

I'll probably get a 2-3 bedroom, and find some new roommates, so my rent will be a lot cheaper.

When we lived apart, and Jon was working a ton, Lora did very little to keep their old place clean. I went there about once a month to help Jon clean because if I didn't, every few weeks, he'd need to spend an extra day there cleaning, because of Lora's total inability to clean (and I mean, piles of dishes in the sink and the bottom ones were filled with scummy/moldy water. Really gross stuff). In our current home, Lora at least keeps her mess tucked away in her bedroom, but she's still awful about cleaning. Jon and I are really good about cleaning, and it's much easier to handle, with two of us.

I think moving apart is just going to put a hell of a lot more stress on him. Which is part of why I wonder if that's why he's so upset about it. Maybe he knows that he can't go back to the way it used to be.

Either way, I feel better knowing that I'm putting an action plan into place, and that there are things I can do to make this less painful to me.


About Lora putting on her best face when we moved in together, I just wonder if it's true. I wonder if the Lora I saw most of the time that Jon and I were dating before we all lived together and the first months of living together was a fake, ideal Lora. I wonder if Lora sold Jon on the idea of that fake, ideal Lora years ago, and he's been trying to find her ever since. I don't think I'll ever know, but I do wonder.
 
I've been quiet lately mostly because it's more of the same (Lora being controlling and ridiculous) coupled with some injections for my on-going health problem that made me pretty sick.

I had a startling realization today that also feels like a "d'oh!" moment. I made two big mistakes going into my relationship with Jon and (by extension) having a relationship with Lora.

1) I assumed that because Jon is awesome, anybody he would be with is also awesome.

2) I've been accepting Lora based on Jon's acceptance of her, and completely ignoring my own metrics/acceptance that I have for friends/people in my life.

Now, for #1, in my defense, before I got to know Lora AT ALL, I'd met several of Jon's closest friends, his parents, his siblings, and two of his exes. They're all (to a person) wonderful. Every last one that I've met. One of his close friends who I have gotten close with once said to me (about Lora): "I don't get it. All his exes are wonderful. You're wonderful. His friends are all wonderful. What it is about this one person that he puts up with so much garbage?"

So, I'm not the only wonderful person in his life wondering why the fuck Lora is in his life.

About #2, I want to say that, for starters, if Jon didn't want to live with both of us, and have both of us deeply entwined in his life (thus entwining our lives), it wouldn't matter as much. But he does, so it is crucial that...I'm not sure how to put this. If I take away the "Jon loves her and wants to be with her" part of the equation, then I would absolutely not be friends with a person like Lora. Not under any circumstances. She's too high-maintenance, self-centered and controlling. Not to mention abusive, which is the worst part of her. But even if she wasn't abusive (and/or controlling), she's still too high-maintenance and self-centered for me to want to be friends with her.

She gets offended way too easy and/or does the most ridiculous fucking subtext things, like, for example, a shower last night. Jon and I were hanging out on the couch. She stuck her head into the living room and said she was going to get a shower, and asked Jon if he needed a shower. He said he didn't. I could tell, by the way she was asking, that the subtext "Do you want to shower and/or spend time with me?" was inserted into her "Do you need a shower?" question. Jon, who was playing a computer game, either didn't catch the subtext or ignored it because it IS subtext. So of course, she started to get upset. And then she said she felt rejected, because Jon didn't want to shower with her. Jon said that, you know, she didn't ask if he wanted to shower with her, she asked if he needed a shower. Two different things. It got straightened out, but Jesus Christ these little bullshit things happen all the damn time and sometimes they get straightened out right away, other time they lead to an hours long fight about how awful and uncaring Jon is toward Lora.

If Lora HAD been my friend, I'd have stopped being friends with her a long time ago, because I don't want to deal with this bullshit.

If Jon was just my friend, I'd have leveled with him a long time ago, and been like "Look, I really care about you. And I want to see you. And I'm willing to see your girlfriend at times, because she's your girlfriend and you love her. But she's not my kind of person, so I'd really rather spend more time with just you than the two of you".

In light of all this, I'm feeling very certain that our days of all living together are numbered. I haven't yet figured out how to tell Jon this, and I'm not feeling like being in a huge hurry about it - an enormous weight has lifted, just making the decision. And I admit - based off of some of the fights that Jon and Lora have had lately - a part of me hopes that before we're split homes, they'll break up. Because it does seem like Jon is also finally running out of patience with some of Lora's problems. There was a fight last week where she said something about therapy and how she's doing it and he should be happy about that, that she's working on her problems, something like that. His response was to say that he asked her for YEARS to get therapy, and while yes, he was glad she finally was, she could have started YEARS ago and they could have been in so much a better place. I didn't hear what the fight was about, but whatever it was, one of the other things he said was something along the lines of "X is the way I am. If you don't like it or can't live with it, then this isn't going to work".

I don't overhear every fight they have, but I've heard a lot of them, and this is the first time that I've heard him say something like that.

Anyways, between the medical stuff being more important right now, and life with Lora being more of the same bullshit, things have been quiet for me. I do feel positive and happy in my decision that we will not be living together for more than ten more months, at the most. Just knowing that I've made a decision and can take steps towards it helps hugely, even as I grieve for not living full-time with Jon.

I have therapy tonight, so I'm going to talk to my therapist about what I've decided and when/how I should broach the subject with Jon. I'm not in any hurry though. I mean, I'm not going to wait until nine months from now to break it to him. I would kind of like to wait until after the summer is over, because I do also want to give myself time to make sure I'm 100% sure of this. And I really need to keep my head more on my health issues right now. But I'm not sure if waiting a couple of months would be bad or not. Something to take to therapy and talk over.
 
A few updates

First was this:
https://learningmanyloves.wordpress.com/2015/06/11/just-say-no-to-drugs/

this this:
https://learningmanyloves.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/its-like-taking-a-giant-emotion-poop/

I wrote the last one on Friday. Three days later, and I still feel a million times more relaxed, at ease, and freer. I haven't had any niggling feelings of "I haven't figured out everything" or "something is still missing". I'm finally, completely on the right track.

The only thing that has developed is a thought of "now that I know what I know, do we really need to have separate homes?". I think that technically, the answer may be 'no'. Now that I know where I'm coming from, and need to figure out how to talk to Jon (and Lora) about it, I feel a lot more comfortable with the idea of, when Lora is being shitty to Jon, saying "sorry, leaving now, not listening to this" and then heading to another part of our home. I also feel a lot more comfortable with the idea of saying to Lora "You know, I'd really like to like you and have a friendship with you, but as long as you consistently treat Jon in a shitty, controlling way, I can't do that. I am actually emotionally unable, because any warmth I feel for you burns right away the next time I hear you saying shitty things to Jon".

I think the main thing that could go wrong there is that Lora and I may well have different ideas of what is ok to do/say/act like in relationship. Some of the stuff that I take serious offense to could be, to her, just part of the way relationships work. And the thing is - it's not my relationship. Not directly. So how much say do I get in it?

And that's the thing. If we all want to live together, then should I get a certain amount of input into their relationship? I honestly don't know. I would not ask for more input than I would be willing to reciprocate. As in, the things that I would comment on, or point out as deal-breakers to me, for us living together, and things that I don't do to Jon (or anybody else I date), ever.

Here's a recent example. I have Summer Fridays. I took the bus to work last Friday, so I could drink and then bus home. Jon decided to join me for some leasurly day-drinking at a lovely outdoor bar. Lora (who has Fridays off) declined to join us, which was fine (honestly, what I preferred). Lora called a few hours into Jon and I being out. It's very clear from the way that Jon handled the phone call that, as per usual, Lora is treating everything like it's super-unfair and shitty to her and being very aggressive and angry. Like, once of the first things he said was "Lora, I've only been away from you for two hours, and it's four o'clock, of course we're going to spend more time together today. We spent a few hours together this morning, and now Liz and I are going to spend a few hours together, then I'm going to come home and spend some time with you, and then hang out with Liz again after that".

It's like...ok, I also at times ask Jon how our day is going to go, time-wise, so I can decide what *I'm* going to do with the parts that I don't spend with Jon. The way I handle this is to approach Jon (if we're all at home or in the same area) or text him (if we're not right in the same area) and say "Hey, what's up with time today?". Whereas Lora doesn't seem to be able to do that. Lora will approach Jon and open with something like "I guess you don't want to have anything to do with me today" or "So that's it, huh? You're just going to spend the day with Liz, aren't you?".

With Lora,she very rarely starts an inquiry with the assumption of Jon fairly splitting time between the two of us. It usually starts out with her making some kind of angry statement about how Jon obviously doesn't want to spend time with her. Whenever Lora is feeling the slightly amount insecure (which seems to be about 90% of the her waking hours), she starts things out by fighting about them.

I'm specifically trying to say "nearly all the time" and 90% of the time, because there are those rare occasions when she does ask calmly what is going on with things, or treats things in a healthy way. However, those (much better) interactions are very much a small minority of the aggregate.

I could probably live with that, assuming it's going to continue to improve and that she'll become better at asking about things without being a nasty person. However, I don't really want to live with it unless the nasty parts are happening less than half the time. And I need to decide which is more important to me; my desire to not live with the bullshit, or Jon's desire to have the three of us continue to live together.

And I'm still open to the idea of us not living together for a year or two, and then trying it again after Lora's had more therapy.

Right now, our lease isn't up until partway through next year. Now that I know how I feel about everything and why, I don't feel a huge need to speed things up, though I do want to talk to both Jon and Lora sometime in the new few months about how I'm feeling and why. Maybe by the time our lease is up, Lora will have done enough therapy that things will be better. If not, then maybe we can get 2 places near each other than live like that for a few years, seeing how it goes.

That assumes that Lora stays in therapy and that Jon and Lora also stay in therapy a good long while and are all making progress. I'm honestly not sure how that's going to go. There's been some pretty clear tension after therapy sessions about things that were said in therapy. And now that Jon is getting therapy, it appears to be bolstering him into standing up for himself more and more. I am wondering if at some point in the next few months or year, Jon might actually break up with Lora. I'd have to say I think that depends entirely on Lora herself, and how she does in therapy. My understanding from what I've seen and heard lately is that Jon is being less and less understanding about Lora not doing the work that she needs to do on herself, to be a mentally healthy person. He's been pretty angry lately about how Lora could have started therapy years ago and had steadfastly refused to go. So I'm no longer sure that he has the amount of patience with her that I thought he did a few months ago. Which I think is great, because I think he was being way too damn patient and more enabling her to continue to be abusive and shitty than actually helping her, even if his intentions were entirely to help her.

Anyways, if nothing else, it's a positive update because I feel a lot better about things.

The only other update is that I've regretfully decided that trying to date anybody new would be a bad idea. It's less because of my current poly issues (MUCH less now that I feel like I have everything straightened out mentally), and more because of my health issues. I just don't have the energy available all the time, and I would feel badly if, from the beginning, I had to present to the other person that they need to do more coming to me, and catering to me, because of my health. I tried a new type of treatment a few weeks ago and it's clearly a failure. My doc has a couple of different ideas that we're going to try, so probably sometime next week, we're try a different kind of treatment and see how that goes. But as long as it's a giant, ongoing saga, I don't think I have enough energy regularly to try to include another person in my life, especially a new one, which will probably need extra energy for at least the first few months.

So that is kinda sucky, but on the whole, I feel so much better about where things are, at least in my head. I finally feel at peace about it and like I can put my energy whole-heartedly into other things, like my health.
 
updates from another post I started, that turned into a continuation of what is going on with us:

I barely got any sleep Thursday night because Lora and Jon had their date night that night, and they had the most insane blowout argument when they got home, which woke me up around 2:30 am, and then the adrenaline kept me up until around 5am. And then there was a gas leak problem on my block (which I learned as I was leaving for work), which meant that jackhammers started at 7am.

The argument between Jon and Lora stemmed from, as far as I can tell, that while out on their date night, Lora wanted to show Jon something (I think on her phone), and Jon said that he really wasn't in the mood to see it. Lora then said that she would be really sad and hurt if he didn't look at it. And (from what I can tell) his response of "I'm feeling kinda bored with looking at phone things now and want to dance" led to this hours-long yelling match that ended with Jon loudly saying " I'm done with this. Good night", closing the door to the bedroom that they were both supposed to sleep in, and then sleeping on the couch for most of the night (a friend of mine had come over last night and slept with me, though I'm not sure if he'd have come & slept with me if my friend wasn't there or not. my wide awake friend. who heard the whole fight.).

Among the things that were said in this fight by Jon: It felt like emotional blackmail when he expresses that he doesn't have an interest in seeing something that Lora wants him to see, and her response is "if you don't look at it, I'm going to be sad and hurt" (which, you know, I agree with). Jon wants to be able to say something like "I'll look at it later" or "Eh, I don't really want to see that" and have it not turn into a fight (which sounds incredibly reasonable to me). Jon didn't want to fight about whatever it was they were fighting about, because Lora was drunk and that was making the fight worse (I'm not so sure on that, given the way she picked it right back up this morning. I mean, it didn't seem any less angry in the morning, when Lora was (presumably) sober).

Among the things that were said by Lora in this fight: Jon ruined their date night. Jon is a fucked up person. Jon handles being a fucked up person by fucking with Lora. Jon is a terrible person and treats Lora like shit. Lora is sick of Jon's shit. Jon is abusive to Lora. At one point, there was some kind of weird "insulting of his manhood", as she said something like "Oh yes, please tell me what you, as a man, think about this" (emphasis was hers. I have no idea what the fuck that even means. as far as I could tell, the point of contention didn't have anything to do with gender). -

As I said, the fight continued into this morning. Jon and I both had to be at work at the same time today, and Lora didn't work today. But she got up to fight with Jon a bit before we left. And then called while we were commuting to yell at Jon because she sent him a text after he left and he hadn't answered it yet.

Now, Lora has never treated me the way she treats Jon. In part because I've made it pretty clear that the day that happens is the day we stop living together. But still, I admit, I'm afraid that when I call her out on shit, she WILL treat me that way, NOT because I'm afraid of her, but because I'm afraid of when the time comes that I say "That's it, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore". And honestly, I'm afraid of that because I'm afraid of being the bad guy. I'm afraid of Jon and Lora both thinking "You know, we could make this work if Liz wasn't so damn difficult". And the thing is, I KNOW that Jon wouldn't react that way. Lora, I have no idea. And honestly, don't get a rat's ass how she'd react, outside of in my head. I really have a lot of guilt about this not working because of me. Which is probably utterly ridiculous, but it's what I'm feeling.

Though, to get back to this morning, and our commute in, before Jon dropped me off, I did tell him that I honestly don't know if I can do this much longer. It's just so ridiculously fucked up. That was definitely among the worst fights that I've heard them having. One curious thing was that since therapy started, Jon is actually really pushing to set his own boundaries a lot harder, and fighting back a lot more intensely with Lora.

I don't know. This might be it for me. I'm so tired of this, and this fight says to me that absolutely nothing has gotten any better between them.
 
I don't have the energy to get into everything that happened, but this is a synopsis of the major parts and where we are now.

Four major things happened. Lora decided to take yesterday off. Yesterday was the second day in over a month that Jon and I both had off (He has had off at least one - if not both - days Lora has off for the past month+). The last time that Jon and I had the same day off a few weeks ago, Lora also called out sick. They had a fight about her calling off sick too much and Jon being concerned she'd be fired. She said she didn't really care if she was fired, she'd just find a new job. But it took her two years to find this job - the first job she's ever had, liked, and stayed at for months. And it pays nearly a living wage (and by far the most money she's ever made). So her cavalier attitude about being fired - new red flag?

She said she called out sick because she was too upset to go to work, over the fight she and Jon had that woke me up, and also because she texted me to apologize for waking me up that night, and I never texted back (more on that later). She stayed in the bedroom for much of the day, but texted Jon to continue to fight with him about the fight they had that woke me up.

While that was happening, the second big thing happened. Jon and I tried to talk. When I tried to talk to Jon about splitting homes, he had a panic attack. He has never had a panic attack before. I used to have them regularly, when I had serious depression and anxiety. When I tried to talk him down from it, he kept saying "no". Finally I asked what he was saying no to. He was saying no to doing things that would make the panic attack go away, because he'd rather have one then think about us splitting homes.

That floored me. He and Lora hadn't started solo therapy yet because the only way we could afford it was if they did couples therapy every other week, and each did solo therapy the week they weren't doing couples therapy. And the couples therapist thought they needed to get certain things into a better place before they started doing couples therapy every other week.

Jon also told me that he doesn't know why, but the last few years, he's been feeling increasingly fearful and introverted and isolated, and he didn't know why. It took everything in me not to scream "because you're trying to have a relationship with an abusive person!".

So I told him that, in light of how we couldn't talk about splitting homes, since he'd rather keep himself in a panic attack than think about it, I wanted to temporarily discontinue all saving of money for the future, to get him to therapy immediately, to figure out what is going on when we talk about splitting homes, and also why he is feeling so horrible.

I also promised that I wouldn't move out until he was able to get this figured out. I don't know if I can keep that promise. But I've never seen him like this before, and I am terrified for him.

The third thing was Jon and Lora did talk a bit about splitting up homes, in the abstract. Lora said that things clearly weren't working with the three of us living together. Jon told Lora that if we split homes, then they need to talk budgets, because Lora will have to contribute more than the small amount of money that she just started (this month) paying in rent. Lora had a bit of a freakout and said she couldn't afford more, so they couldn't move out.

That discussion then got kind of tabled, since Jon isn't able to handle actually, concretely talking about it. And for the record, Lora saying they can't move out because she can't contribute enough to make it work? Not my problem, but I wonder if she's trying to make it my problem so that if I "force" them to move out, I'm clearly "the bad guy".

The last thing was that Jon talked to Lora about how we all needed to talk. Lora said she didn't understand what there was to talk about - she texted me an apology about waking me up. What more needed to be said? Jon said that I wasn't upset about being woken up. Lora then said that she didn't care, they were going to move out, so it didn't matter, and we didn't need to talk (in direct reverse of her earlier "we can't afford to move out" statement). Jon said we did. Lora then said that she couldn't possibly talk now, she was still so upset about the fight they already had that she couldn't possibly handle more.

Now, that could legit be true. Whether it is or not, as this moment, I'm going to take it at face value.

But by the end of the night, Lora was trying to talk to me like everything was normal between us. A friend of mine had come over, and I didn't want to do anything in front of him that would be embarrassing to her, so I went along with it, in as restrained a way as I could. But I talked to Jon about my concern that she was going to just ignore it steadily until I forgot about it (which isn't going to happen). He said that he thought that she was still so stressed that she was grasping at "straws of normalcy" until her head was in a better place and she could handle more. He also said that he didn't know how long that would take, but he thought we'd be able to talk in a few days.

I currently believe that she really is trying to put me off on talking until I forget. We'll see.

So for now, my focus is on getting Jon into therapy. He emailed the couples therapist today, for names of individual therapists.

My other focus is on waiting and seeing when Lora will be ready to talk. I'm writing something short to memorize, to say to her, if she comes home and tries to act friendly with me. Basically, something along the lines of "I understand that you're too fried to talk right now and need time to process the things happening between you and Jon. But until we talk, I don't feel comfortable talking casually with you. Until we talk things out, I need you to give me space and not to try engage me in conversations unless they're necessary. I'm sorry to put more on you now, but I'm at a point where I need to do this for myself, in order to keep functioning"

I'm not totally sure how I feel about holding off on moving out until Jon has sorted out how he feels. But...it was terrifying, seeing him like that. Absolutely terrifying. He's never done anything like that before. Ever. Just thinking about it, I feel sick with fear.

Could I be wrong? I'm not crazy about things with Lora being bad, right? It's not just that I'm being over-sensitive or seeing things or blowing things out of proportion, am I? I'm not the person making Jon crazy, am I?

I keep telling myself that I'm not, but...I don't know right now. Part of me wants to take responsibility for it, because then I have the ability to make it better. To make things better for him. I know that's probably completely crazy talk, but I am very afraid right now.
 
Hey Liz,

I think the root of the problem is that Jon is trying to make things work with Lora. Things aren't going to work with Lora. Jon needs to break up with her. But, no one can tell him that because he won't believe it unless he figures it out for himself.

Trust me hon, the problem is not you.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Yes. I agree, Kevin.

And here's how today went. I asked Jon about date night this week. It's our date night week. I suggested going out Friday. Since Saturday is the 4th, and we were invited to a BBQ by a friend of his, I thought we could all do that on Saturday, and Jon and I could go out Friday. I have off Friday, so I will be able to sleep in, and have enough energy to go out in the evening.

Lora has off Saturday. Before the fight Thursday night, she'd said she wanted to go dancing (the three of us) Friday night. Because she doesn't typically have Saturdays off, and wanted to take advantage of it, by going out and dancing.

Because of my health issues, going out Friday night to dance wouldn't work, regardless of my emotions.

Given what has happened recently, I have no interest in going out with Lora, just the three of us, Friday night. I'm only suggesting the BBQ Saturday, because lots of people will be there. It's the best compromise I can offer, where the three of us "do a thing" sort of. I won't be talking to Lora at the BBQ. But like I said, this is the best I can offer.

When I suggested Friday night for our date night to Jon (Over text. He's working today), he reminded me about Lora's desire to go dancing. I reminded him that I can barely stand to be in the same room with her since listening to her scream at him what a fucked up person he is. So no. Dancing with Lora on Friday is out. Can we do date night on Friday, I asked.

He's freaking out about the idea. Because our plans will affect other plans and it's hard, he said. He also said he was starting to loose it and needed to keep his shit together at work. In light of that, I said that my only response would be that we should change the subject. Which we did.

What I really wanted to say is that he's taking Lora being upset at me saying "no dancing Friday night" harder and with more emotion than he's taken my reaction at being deeply upset at listening to Lora spew terrible words at him.

But then, he would be more upset by Lora's reaction. She's probably going to abuse him when she finds out that dancing on Friday isn't going to happen.

Meanwhile, I was out when Lora got home today. That was on purpose. I needed to grocery shop, and left to do so around the time I knew she'd get home.

When I got home, there was a gift and a note on my desk.

She reiterated that she has too much on her plate. She has slipped back into a depression. Just getting out of bed in incredibly hard for her.

She recognized that she triggered me with the fight and is sorry.

She welcomes suggestions for what her and Jon can do. They will no longer be drinking one on one, until things get to a better place.

So she wanted to give me a peace offering. It is her awkward, shy, non-confrontational way of apologizing and reaching out. She cares. And she is listening.

***

I genuinely believe that she is in a lot of pain. As a fellow human being, I genuinely grieve for her pain.

As the person who I am today, who grew up with a mother who was physically and verbally abusive, and would leave after the abuse, and return with presents that I had better be damn grateful for (else it would get much, much worse), this little peace offering is...it's not triggering anymore. But it's not good.

Even if I hadn't grown up with the mother that I had...a gift doesn't make up for hearing Lora tell Jon he's a fucked up person.

As I sat here and tried to decide if this is a genuine gift or a ploy to just keep me spinning longer, I thought to myself...why can't it be both?

I'm really not sure what to do with this attempted peace offering. I didn't mention before, but Lora specifically requested to Jon that I not email her right now, because she can't handle it. I wasn't going to anyways; this needs to be face to face.

And she's simultaneously made it clear that she isn't willing to entertain any response from me but acceptance and forgiveness as well as cut off any mode of communication that isn't face to face. And also informed me that face to face communication also isn't currently welcome or possible.

So...I think I'm going to text her (there hasn't yet been a request for no texting). I want to tell her that I understand that she has all she can handle with what has happened with Jon lately. I can wait until she is in a better place to talk. However, given my current feelings, while I'm waiting, I think it best if we have minimal communication and keep that focused on needful things, like if we're running low on toilet paper. I can certainly be civil, and respectful. I cannot engage in discussions about how our days went, or any form of mutual support.

I'm not sure what else I can do that honors my needs and hers and Jon's.

I have to admit, it's really tempting to just leave. Pack a bag, go to Issi's, and...I don't know. Scream and cry over this situation until my throat is raw.

I don't know what to do.
 
What I actually texted:

I understand that you have all you can handle with Jon recently. I respect that. I can wait until you are in a better place to talk.

Given my current feelings, it would be best if we have minimal communication and stick to non-personal subjects until we can talk.

I will always be respectful to you. But I cannot engage in personal discussions with you right now.

I don't expect to be home until late on Monday and Wednesday. Tuesday, I will not be home at all. I don't know about Thursday, but I can let you know through text, if it would be helpful.
 
LizziE said:
Jon also told me that he doesn't know why, but the last few years, he's been feeling increasingly fearful and introverted and isolated, and he didn't know why.
Click to expand...

This is what happened to me in my abusive marriage. Even with therapy, I'm still having difficulty coming out of it (20+ year marriage.) My guess is he's panicking because you're his 'safety in the storm' and the thought of not having you there is terrifying. I know you love him but that is NOT your problem. And, sadly, staying just for that reason is enabling him to stay with her rather than come to the conclusion for himself, that Lora is not his responsibility and that they're better apart. It's like he enables Lora to continue in her bad behavior and you enable him to do so by refilling/refueling him/being his safety in the storm. I mean that kindly, not at all disrespectfully. Coming from someone who was in an abusive relationship, the quicker he's out of it, the easier it will be for him to heal. I think your idea to temporarily stay at your friend's house is a good one. It's a compromise of sorts. You aren't separating the house and all the things that entails (finances, etc.), but you are allowing Jon to experience the full weight of Lora's issues without you as a buffer or safety net. I vote for doing that until your date night.

Last thing is, maybe they just take a break from couples counseling to do a few individual sessions? If they use the same practice for individual counseling and sign a waiver allowing the therapists to share information, I think the couples counselor will agree that individual therapy is more important. My experience has been that couples counseling is not beneficial when there's extenuating circumstances like addiction, abuse, or serious underlying mental health issues that aren't also being treated.

I'm sorry, Lizzie. You're in an incredibly painful, difficult situation. I hope you can get some peace for you.

ETA: My ex & I tried couples counseling. It just highlighted the dysfunction and brought us further apart instead of together. He eventually refused to continue because it was shattering some of his delusions and forcing him to see things he wasn't prepared to see (his addiction, depression, and abusive behaviors.) Some people prefer to live in their delusions rather than get better. If that's where Lora is, there's nothing you can do about it. And, unfortunately, if Jon decides to continue to enable Lora (thinking he's helping her/taking care of her), then there's nothing you can do about that, either.
 
Last edited:
I've had all those same thoughts, PinkPig. I think the hardest thing is that I know, intellectually, that the most loving thing I could do is probably to actually leave. I've been worried for months that one of the biggest problems (and maybe one of the potential major pitfalls of polyamory) is that Jon is taking the good energy/strength that we generate between ourselves, and using that to continue to try to cope with Lora. Leaving, so that Jon doesn't have that to draw on daily anymore the way he has for the past year+ may help him see how truly bad it is.

At the same time, when *I* think about leaving, and not seeing Jon every day, I get this clawing sort of hysteria in my chest. It's so painful that I can't even look at it inside me directly.

About the couples counseling, when Jon told me they were doing that, instead of individual therapy (Because Lora kept waffling between "not needing therapy" and "being too afraid to do therapy", so Jon thought getting her into couples therapy would show her that she needed solo therapy badly), I did some research on what couples therapy is like in an abusive relationship. I wrote about it here:

https://learningmanyloves.wordpress.com/2015/05/15/it-appears-my-worries-are-not-unfounded/

Basically, couples therapy is typically a very bad idea, when one party is abusive. Because one of the premises of couples therapy is that both parties are making mistakes/treating each other poorly. Both are culpable for the problems, and both have to take ownership of them. If one partner is abused, this is basically telling that partner that they are in fact to blame for their own abuse. And also, like you said, sometimes the abuser will eventually refuse to go to therapy, assuming that the therapist is skillful enough to realize that there is actually one party causing most of the problems and starts calling them on it.

I sent Jon some links about this and encouraged him to see if he could talk to the therapist privately about the abuse. As he himself is still in denial or minimizing about the abuse much of the time, I'm not sure if he did.

I wish he could insist on it, but if he can't, getting him into solo therapy at least should be a step in the right direction (I hope).

Thank you so much for the support, and words of encouragement. I know that things are coming to some kind of a head right now. I'm not sure if it's going to end with Jon and Lora finally breaking up or with me semi-moving in with friends for awhile.

There have been more developments, which I'll post about in a separate post.
 
Last edited:
So I got two texts from Lora this morning.

She would rather things not be awkward for as long as possible and would like to talk so that everybody can move on. She now prefers email, because she'll feel less confronted and it'll allow her to take in what I'm saying. So that's what she wants to do, if I'm ready.

An hour later, she texted that she needs some space and wants to live with everybody, she's in love with Jon, but needs to cool down. It will help lower her frustration and sort through her emotions. It would also give us space. She's thinking about looking on craigslist for a sublet. She could clean up the smaller bedroom so we could look for sublets on craigslist too. She doesn't know, she's just thinking.

And now, about a minute ago, she just texted that she doesn't know if she even wants that. She's just tired.

So AngryLiz's initial thoughts where that we are waaaaaaaay past awkward and that she's not sure what "moving on" means exactly, but if it means "go back to all living together and acting like everything is OK until the next screaming fight", the answer is NOPE. Moving on is not an option.

AngryLiz also gives zero shits about Lora feeling confronted.

Now that I've expelled those feelings at least a little bit...you know, I'm not totally sure what she needs to cool down from. Maybe it's the fight they had Thursday night. I can't find that I mentioned it before, but Lora work Jon up early yesterday for more "talking". Early was at least like 9:30 am and not four in the morning. I didn't hear much. The thing that woke me up was Jon saying something like "Lora, you need to STOP. You cannot wake me up early any more to keep fighting with me. We can't do this anymore". That's the only part that was loud enough for me to hear (and he didn't yell, it was more his voice went up from tension) and when I asked Jon about it later, he said that Lora just wanted to talk to him more, and it got a little emotional, but the talk was overall "fine".

I think he might actually be delusional at this point. In denial to the point of being delusional.

Jon and I are meeting for lunch today at noon. I'm not sure how that's going to go. And I'm not sure what to do with Lora's texts. If I emailed her, I think it'd be a pretty simple email. Here's a rough draft.

Lora,

I told you in February that I could not live with you, if that meant hearing you be verbally abusive to Jon.

Waking up to the sound of you screaming at him that he was a fucked up person who can't relate to normal people, and that trying to deal with him was fucking you up was one of the worst things that I've ever had to listen to.

I cannot continue to live in a situation where there isn't only a chance of me hearing that in the future, but a certainly of hearing that again in the future.

This isn't the first time it's happened. Or the second. Or the third. Or even the fourth. It's a pattern. It has repeated every few months since we started living together. From what I know of your relationship before we all lived together, it was a pattern then too.

I understand that therapy isn't going to work overnight, or help you to learn healthier behavior in a month. I wish that it would have started sooner, in February or March instead of the end of May. A few months more of progress may have made a difference. But I don't really know.

What I do know is that if you are still in a place emotionally where you are unable to stop yourself from verbally abusing Jon, then we can't live together now. I cannot have an emotional relationship with you. If there is any chance of us having any kind of relationship in the future, then we cannot have one now, while you are abusing him.

I'm not entirely sure what to do about our living situation at the moment. I'm going to talk to friends about living part-time with them. And generally keep to myself when I'm home. As I said before, I won't be home much for the next few days, at least. Beyond that, I'll figure it out as it comes.

So we're clear, I don't hate you. I want you to get better. But I cannot be emotionally intimate with you while you are abusing Jon. Not living together seems to be the only situation that offers us some possibility of a relationship if things improve.

-Liz



Anybody have any thoughts?
 
I suggest not saying anything about you moving out unless/until you are definitely going to move out. If you're just staying at a friend's house on-and-off or for a few days, you could give Jon notice of that and if he wants to tell Lora he can.

I suggest looking for a studio apartment and even if you don't live in it right away, it could be there for you if you needed a place to retreat. Sort of like partly moving out without committing to it just yet.

Is Lora ready to accept individual counseling just for herself? If not, then maybe it's time for there to be some concrete consequences for her misbehavior. You moving out could be part of that.

Of course, the main thing you need to act on is what would be best for you. You can't throw yourself on Jon's or Lora's altar.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top