Mono? Insecure? Something Else?

[dingedheart]

Hey, how was your weekend? Sorry, I was away for a few days.

I get the not being ready part...

How can you make the demotion , displacement and intrusion better when it hasn't really got going full speed. Meaning you have yet to have your desired relationship dynamic with your BF. You said you want it all ...unrestricted dates , sleepovers, split time, etc.
I DO want all that, sure. But in reality, BF cant give me those things right now anyway. He has a wife and kids himself, and obligations on his side that prevent those things from happening. But someday, yeah, that would be ideal.

The summer has been very challenging for us. With all the kids/ schedules, we have only been able to really see each other once every other week. Which is very different for the "school year" schedule, which is once or twice a week. But most of that time is family time with a toddler, not even adult time. For that, we rely on texting and an occasional date at night (maybe once a month if we are lucky).

TB, on the other hand, still gets to see me every day, sleep with me every night, spend quality time (when we can carve that out in between work and kids, etc..). He still often feels like he doesn't get enough of me, even though proportionately, he gets WAY MORE. This is part of my fundamental issue, and we have disparity in ow much is enough and how much is "too much"....

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the topics of demotion, displacement and intrusion are from the "poly hell" article which GalaGirl has generously posted many times. If you or any of the others involved in this have not read that, you might want to check it out.

As for the situation, what you're saying is demotion has happened, and he's feeling that. Displacement of sorts has happened or is happening more on an emotional level. As for time and attention, or intrusion, that really hasn't happened YET because the other wife is blocking that.

And as for the disparity of what's enough and what's too much, I think an element within that would be how that's tallied up and the mindset during said activities. Even if you're with someone 100% of the time, but you head and heart are not, how would that be calculated? Doing things out of obligation, pity or pacification demonstrates this point. Does it count, not count, count against?

Someone wrote on another thread or blog about the possible negative "what-ifs." Have TB, bf or you thought about what those could be, how much weight they'd have, how much stress they'd cause, and how these "what-ifs" play into the overall topics of demotion, displacement and intrusion?

A few examples might be that you get clearance from the tower (bf's wife) and you start a sexual relationship, and it turns out to be so good/great that you lose all desire for TB.

Or as you work toward your goal of more integration into your life, TB shuts down and withdraws.

Or, with some newfound time on his hands, TB goes out to find another soul mate, and the reverse happens, his time and energy and desire flow elsewhere, but because of bf's wife, yours never gets off the ground.

A friend said she discovered that guilt was the motivating factor in trying to make her two relationships equal. She over-compensated in one relationship due to her feelings in the other... so it actually wasn't equal...

Could guilt be masked as this companiobate love?
Guilt of having those feelings, guilt of what it could do to the family.

Sure, I have lots of guilt.

I do think this was a motivating factor for taking a break from sexual activity with both guys. I needed to look at the situation as a whole. I was spending time with BF, building up all this sexual energy, and then not having an outlet for that. Bringing it home to TB was fun at first, but it started to feel icky, like I was giving him something that really belonged to BF and me. I did not like that. I am still trying to figure out whether that needs to be a boundary for me, not being sexual with TB after a date with BF. I want my sexual encounters to be genuine for each of them, and not just a way to expend energy, and not giving one person a "gift" that should have been given to someone else.

Have you explained this to both of them? Was TB okay with having bf be sort of a fluffier for your relationship? Some people might reject such encounters for the same reason, as not being genuine. On the other hand, I know guys that wouldn't care less, take what's offered and be happy, win-win.

Personally, the spillover effect didn't happen for me. I rejected the pity/obligatory attempt.

You recaptured the soul mate...

When did you develop your theory on soul mates?

TB, bf and I have had many conversations... While I do think about what life would have been like had I made different choices, if BF had actually told me how he felt when he had the chance, the truth us we didnt make those choices. I dont believe in second guessing those kinds of things. I made the best choices I could at the time, with the information I had, and I have accomplished many wonderful things in my life. I can only go from here onward.

Why do you downplay that? Guilt? Hurting TB's feelings further (grinding salt in a fresh wound)? Something else?

As far as my "theory" on soulmates, well I suppose it has evolved over time. Many years ago (over 10) I read a book by Caroline Myss, Sacred Contracts. It resonated with me in a way that I needed at the time, seeking connections with others who come into your life, and the fact that they are there for a reason. Not some "Divine, prescribed" reason, but just that each person was an opportunity to learn and grow. Some of these people would be more important than others, help me in greater ways, and I would grow by leaps and bounds around them. Others are wonderful companions but may not have a significant impact on my life overall.

Much of the subject matter of her book was based on Jungian archetypes and made sense to me in making sense of the roles I was playing in different relationships, as well as the roles people were playing with me. If a person comes into my life, and impacts it in a significant way, such that my life is never the same again, well that person would be a "soul mate" to me. It may not fit other people's definitions, but it is a word or term that allows me to explain that person's significance in my life.

Funny, but I'm actually familiar with her book. I almost went to see her dog and pony show at one of the local hotels. She seems like a tough old broad.

So as the evolution on soul mates is happening, was TB made aware of this yrs and yrs ago, or did he learn this recently?

Thanks for continuing to ask questions for me to think about.

No problem. My pleasure.

Here's another question that just popped into my head. I didn't ask my wife this directly, but it was sort of covered in a discussion of wanting the secondary partner. If you have these wildly different definitions of love, is that then a poly relationship? No one describes being in a poly relationship with a brother and a parent, or two children, loving more than two. So if there is this huge passion disparity from one relationship to another, roommate/brother vs lover.

I know that's super subjective, but worth to kick around as a concept.

And just because you have the capacity to love that way doesn't actually mean you'll feel that way or act that way.

I really hope things work out for all... all 7-9, or however many are involved.

 

[LovingRadiance]

*giggle* DH, you crack me up.

In real life, I'm forever telling people that "poly," as it's most frequently used, really doesn't encompass who I am. I just love a lot of people. I say that because I have friends who are more "family" than "friends" by definition. I love them. I have friends who are more than "just friends." We aren't lovers, but in all other ways we are as intimate as I am with lovers. I just love them. I have two lovers. I love them. And kids. OMG. Yeah, there are my three biological children. My stepson, my godson, my two girls (whom I call "the girls"), and it just keeps going and going and going.

How do you define it? Silly to ask. I just love them.

Now if we want to talk sex, that is different. I have sex with my two lovers. But we could discuss "sexy," and that makes a whole new mess! I love to flirt and flaunt and be racy and suggestive and...

 

[willowstar]

I was away for a few days.


... The topics of demotion, displacement and intrusion are from the "poly hell" article. If you have not read that you might want to check it out.

No problem. I was too.

Yes, I had read it, but it was a while ago. I just went back and read it again. Absolutely, that is all happening for him right now.

For 6 months, I was doing everything I was told to-- talking, snuggling, spending time together, having sex on a regular basis. And none of it was helping him to feel any better than he did. I admit I hit a wall. I started to resent that I was making such efforts to make things better for him, but I wasn't getting that in return. I needed to try a different way.

And as for the disparity of what's enough and what's too much, I think an element with in that would be how that's tallied up and mindset during said activities. Even if you're with someone 100% of the time, but you head and heart are not, how would that be calculated? Doing things out of obligation, pity or pacification demonstrates this point. Does it count, not count, count against?

Right, exactly. I don't know how to answer that. Does it count? Maybe. Should it count? Subjective. He does not want me to do anything out of obligation. The disparity is that I just don't want to have sex at the same pace he does. Common relationship issue, or so I have heard.

How many times are we with a partner, and we are thinking about work? Or school? Or someone we know who is sick, or struggling with an issue? I know that thinking about another love when I'm with a partner sounds squicky, but it's also a reality. We can downplay that for our partner's comfort.

Someone wrote about the possible negative "what-ifs." Have TB, bf or you thought about what those could be, how much weight they'd have, how much stress they'd cause, how those "what-ifs" play into the overall topics of demotion, displacement and intrusion?

[If] you get clearance from the tower (bf's wife) and you start a sexual relationship, and it turns out to be so good/great that you lose all desire for TB, or as you work toward your goal of more integration into your life, TB shuts down and withdraws, or TB goes out to find another soul mate ... his desire flows elsewhere, and because of bf's wife, yours never gets off the ground.

Yes, we have talked about that somewhat. Splitting up. What if he does find someone who is willing to be loving, affectionate, submissive, dominant and mono with him, as much as he wants? He may very well decide to leave me, which would suck, but is a risk of letting someone you love go, to love another.

Have you explained this to both of them? Was TB okay with having bf be sort of a fluffer for your relationship? Some people might reject such encounters for tnot being genuine. I know guys that wouldn't care less, take what's offered... Personally, the spillover effect didn't happen for me. I rejected the pity/obligatory attempt.

TB was fine with it. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it helped him reconnect with me when I returned. On the other, he got to reap the benefits, and as long as he was getting laid, he was happy. (This is my very snarky, defensive response. Not what I really think was happening. But it is an angle I have considered.)

Why do you downplay that? Guilt? Hurting TB's feelings further?

Yes, to protect his feelings. To not make him feel as though BF is more important than he is. They are both important to me. I love both of them. I want both of them. The "picture" of what each relationship looks like is different, because they are different guys, and they each bring out different aspects of me, but neither is more important than the other.

But also, it's because I cannot go back and second-guess every decision. If I were to say, "Gee, I made a huge mistake walking away from you. I should have married you instead," that, to me, feels like I am saying I don't want the life I have now. TB and I have a good life, we have loved much and endured much. I have a job I love, that I may or may not have found with bf. I have three amazing kids, and I would not wish them away for all the love in the world. So to say "I wish" is just giving us the opportunity to feel bad about things we can't go back and change anyway.

So as the evolution on soul mates is happening, was TB made aware of this yrs and yrs ago, or did he learn this recently?

Oh, no. We have talked about stuff like that on and off for years. He has known this a long time, and shares many of my views on the subject. It's not new.

If you have these wildly different definitions of love, is that then a poly relationship? No one describes being in a poly relationship with a brother and a parent, or two children. So there is this huge passion disparity from one relationship to another, roommate/brother vs lover.

And just because you have the capacity to love that way doesn't actually mean you'll feel or act that way.

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean to ask whether two people who have different love styles can be in love? And can they find ways to be together, and have a poly relationship?

I also have friends that are part of my poly family, but are not lovers. We love them completely. If they lost a child or a partner, or had some other important event come up for them, I would drive the 300 miles to be with them, no matter what. I think it's about love, not sex. Which is why BF is still my BF and not just my friend.

 

[YouAreHere]

Real quick question, since I should be wrapping up at work...

On the one hand, it helped him reconnect with me when I returned. On the other, he got to reap the benefits, and as long as he was getting laid, he was happy.

I realize you admitted to being snarky here, but what's wrong with him reaping the benefits of your happiness? I've seen that elsewhere described as one of the benefits of poly - that the positive energy from one relationship can benefit another.

If something that triggers a lot of negativity in him can bring him something positive as well, I wonder if that would help temper the negativity a bit.

 

[willowstar]

I realize you admitted to being snarky here, but what's wrong with him reaping the benefits of your happiness? I've seen that elsewhere described as one of the benefits of poly - that the positive energy from one relationship can benefit another.

If something that triggers a lot of negativity in him can bring him something positive as well, I wonder if that would help temper the negativity a bit.

Yes, but how is that fair to bf? My feelings around this issue also include the fact that he is not reaping the benefits of this. It just feels icky to me. Maybe I need to explore the "why" of that more.

 

[YouAreHere]

Yes, but how is that fair to BF?.

Because I'm annoying enough to answer a question with a question, how is it unfair to your BF? Are you taking something away from him that he would otherwise be receiving?

My feelings around this issue also include the fact that he is not reaping the benefits of this. It just feels icky to me. Maybe I need to explore the "why" of that more.

Digging and exploring is always good. It's a hard process, but (for me) the results have been well worth it.

 

[willowstar]

Because... how is it unfair to your bf? Are you taking something away from him that he would otherwise be receiving?

Yes. I am, actually. It is unfair because he does not have the opportunity to reap the benefits of our interactions. So, why should my husband?

I am uncomfortable with the balance issue.

 

[dingedheart]

Demotion, displacement and intrusion are from the "poly hell" article... you might want to check it out.

I just went back and read it again. Absolutely, that is all happening for him right now. And for 6 months or so, I was doing everything I was told to. Talking, snuggling, spending time together, having sex on a regular basis. And none of it was helping him to feel any better than he did. I admit I hit a wall. I started to resent that I was making such efforts to make things better for him, but I wasnt getting that in return. I needed to try a different way.

My point is your relationship with the bf hasn't really gotten dialed up yet, is nowhere near what would be your ideal or ultimate goal.

And as for the disparity of what's enough and what's too much, I think an element within that would be how that's tallied up and mindset during said activities. Even if you're with someone 100% of the time, but your head and heart are not, how would that be calculated? Doing things out of obligation, pity or pacification demonstrates this point. Does it count?

Does it count? Maybe. Should it count? Subjective. He does not want me to do anything out of obligation. The disparity is that I just dont want to have sex at the same pace he does. Common relationship issue...

How many times are we with a partner, and we are thinking about work? Or school? Or someone we know who is sick, or struggling with an issue? I know that thinking about another love when I'm with a partner sounds squicky, but it's also a reality. We can downplay that for our partner's comfort.

I guess this gets really subjective in what is meant by "thinking about" another love. Is it as simple as hearing something that triggers "Oh hey, I need to tell bf that the next chance I get," or as your date night wears on, you play back a comment bf made about being tired from his day and you hope he's still up when you get home, to the extreme of closing your eyes during sex and imagining it was the other guy.

Downplaying for comfort, when does it become inauthentic, how much downplaying makes it fake? Downplaying this, shading that, massaging here, caressing there... for what? To cover the extent of the truth and keep him from bolting? It almost seems like management. You're trying to manage input to manage reaction and fallout.

What-ifs...

You get clearance from the tower (bf's wife), you start a sexual relationship, and it turns out to be so great that you lose all desire for TB, or as you work toward your goal of more integration into your life TB shuts down and withdraws, or TB with some new found time on his hands goes out, his desire flows elsewhere and because of the wife yours never gets off the ground.

Yes, we have talked about that somewhat. What if he does find someone who is willing to be loving, affectionate, submissive, dominant, mono? He may very well decide to leave me, which would suck, but is a risk of letting someone you love go, to love another.

Are you saying you went through the list a negative "what-ifs"/unintended consequences, or just the one with him finding someone else?

TB was fine with it. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it helped him reconnect with me when I returned. On the other, he got to reap the benefits, and as long as he was getting laid, he was happy. (This is my very snarky, defensive response. Not what I really think was happening. But it is an angle I have considered.)

"Fine" might be subjective in this. Fine because he knows the limited nature of what's allowed, gives him a shot to showcase his love and affection for you.

"He does not want me to do anything out of obligation," except in this case. Or did you initiate these encounters?

Reconnect implies disconnect. Was it reconnect or repossess?

Why do you downplay that?

Yes, to protect his feelings. To not make him feel as though BF is more important than he is. They are both important to me. I love both of them. I want both of them. The "picture" of what each relationship looks like is different, because they are different guys, and they each bring out different aspects of me, but neither is more important than the other.

But also, because I cannot go back and second guess every decision. If I were to say, "Gee, I made a huge mistake walking away from you. I should have married you instead", that, to me, feels like I am saying I dont want the life I have now. TB and I have a good life, we have loved much and endured much. I have a job I love, that I may or may not have found with BF. I have three amazing kids, and I would not wish them away for all the love in the world. So to say, I wish, is just giving us the opportunity to feel bad about things we cant go back and change anyway.

But isn't that the truth? That's how you really feel. That's how both you and bf feel-- you made a huge mistake.

Today if some old flame of his came back into his life and they admitted the same thing to one another, wouldn't you want to know that?

I get going back, looking back, but doesn't this impact the future? As far as demotion and displacement, it sure would.

If you have these wildly different definitions of love, is that then a poly relationship?

And just because you have the capacity to love that way doesn't actually mean you'll feel that way or act that way.

Do you mean to ask whether two people who have different love styles can BE in love? And can they find ways to be together, and have a poly relationship?

I also have friends that are part of my poly family, but are not lovers. We love them completely. If they lost a child or a partner,or had some other important event come up for them, I would drive the 300 miles to be with them, no matter what. I think it's about love, not sex. Which is why BF is still my BF and not just my friend.

It's not love styles, it's definitions of romantic love, not even sex. If you're not "in love " with 2 people at the same time, what then? You said you identify as poly. You certainly are living some sort of poly dynamic. But the acid test for me is being "in love" with 2 or more. 2 highly passionate romantic relationships happening at the same time, not one old companion and one hot lover.


Also thanks a lot, RL. That cleared things up nicely.

Are you taking something away from him that he would otherwise be receiving?

Yes. I am, actually. It is unfair because he does not have the opportunity to reap the benefits of our interactions.

Does this apply to only sex? If you mess around in the car you husband pays for (helps pay for), or text on a phone that's covered by family plan, to whose benefit does that go?

On a side note, what did the therapist say about telling your daughter?

 

[gingersnap]

It was over the top for me. He was always trying to French kiss me in front of our kids, in the grocery store, always ogling me when I was getting dressed, that sort of thing. Which are not really big deals, but I am not big on PDA, and those are things he should know about me. His boundaries were becoming inappropriate, and so I felt as though it was important, for our relationship to survive, for me to set the boundaries more clearly, and ask him to just STOP. Even after telling him that sex was off the table for a little while, he continued to try and touch my breasts, put his hands on my ass, and basically just disregard entirely everything I was asking him to do. I told him clearly that I was not doing this as punishment, that I needed to get some perspective on what was going on for me, but I really feel as though he did not take me seriously. That if he just played enough, I would get a little turned on and just give in. I finally had to make it abundantly clear that he was NOT allowed to give me any kind of sexual touch whatsoever unless I had specifically invited him. Which to many people may seem over the top. But he WAS NOT respecting my limits. And even people for whom Touch is their primary love language have to respect the limits of their partners.

It's not extreme. You have a right to decide what happens to your body, husband or not. Its considered sexual assault if you don't give consent, even if you have had sex before, or if you are married. It should not be expected, and it should always be asked for, and consented to.

 

[willowstar]

My point is your relationship with the bf hasnt really gotten dialed up yet, and nowhere near your ultimate goal.
.....

Downplaying for comfort. When does it become inauthentic? How much downplaying makes it fake? Downplaying this, shading that, massaging here, caressing there... for what ? To cover the extent of the truth and keep him from bolting? It almost seems like management. You're trying to manage input to manage reaction and fallout.

Yes, probably true. I am doing that-- protecting his feelings, protecting my own heart from pain, as well. One of the things that I am finding so challenging with him is "telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." When we (as a society) are so used to telling white lies, protecting feelings, and being nice ("No, honey, that dress does not make you look heavier"), it is hard to learn to be honest. I am so much better than I used to be. But it's still hard when it is a cold, hard truth that has consequences.

If your not "in love" with 2 people at the same time, what then? You said you identify as poly. You certainly are living some sort of poly dynamic, but the acid test for me is being "in love " with 2 or more. 2 highly passionate romantic relationships happening at the same time, not one old companion and one hot lover.

Well, "old lover" is subjective too. I am sure there are plenty of people on here who have old lovers or partners they have been with for long periods of time that they have a certain level of comfort with, but may not feel that NRE feeling with. I do not think I would do well to have two new relationships going on with two NREs. I think my head would explode. I am much more comfortable with having an established relationship as a basis, and then a newer one to explore.

Does this apply to only sex? If you mess around in the car you husband pays for, or text on a phone that's covered by family plan, to whose benefit does that go?

I don't see the correlation. My car. My phone. The idea that my husband would have a say about what happens in my car seems silly. He might have a say in what happens in relation to our relationship, but not about inanimate objects. Unless of course, we left a mess behind for him or the kids to find. Otherwise, I feel that is a nonissue.

What did the therapist say about telling your daughter?

That keeping secrets in a family takes its toll. Better to let her know something is going on, so she doesn't imagine what is happening. To remember that there are categories of information, public or family, private and confidential. Family is anything we can discuss openly, private would be things we choose to share or not share based on whether it is appropriate for her to know (such as who am I having sex with, that would be private information), and confidential is things we are not at liberty to discuss (because it is harmful to another, the information belongs to another, or it just not relevant to her at all). We will be doing that this week with her.

 

[dingedheart]

Protecting his feelings, protecting my own heart from pain as well. One of the things that I am finding so challenging with him is "telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." When we (as a society) as so used to telling white lies, protecting feelings... it is hard to learn to be honest. I am so much better than I used to be. But it's still hard when it is a cold, hard truth that has consequences.

In those situations, I always think what would I want to know. Would I want someone to sugarcoat it to spare my feelings, or hit me straight? Does he want the cold hard truth?

Also another interesting thing happens when cold hard truth is routinely practiced. Certain questions or topics are avoided because of the same thing. You don't want to say something out loud and he or she definitely doesn't want to hear it.

Well, "old lover" is subjective too. I am sure there are plenty of people on here who have old lovers or partners they have been with for long periods of time that they have a certain level of comfort with, but may not feel that NRE feeling with. I do not think I would do well to have two new relationships going on with two NRE's. I think my head would explode. I am much more comfortable with having an established relationship as a basis and then a newer one to explore.

So NRE = "in love."

I don't see the correlation. My car. My phone. The idea that my husband would have a say about what happens in my car seems silly. He might have a say in what happens in relation to our relationship, but not about inanimate objects. Unless of course, we left a mess behind for him or the kids to find. Otherwise, I feel that is a nonissue.

Bad examples maybe, but I was thinking of it in the simple terms of why should someone benefit from the act or gift of someone else?

That keeping secrets in a family takes its toll. Better to let her know something is going on, so she doesn't imagine what is happening. To remember that there are categories of information, public or family, private and confidential. Family is anything we can discuss openly, private would be things we choose to share or not share based on whether it is appropriate for her to know (such as who am I having sex with, that would be private information), and confidential is things we are not at liberty to discuss (because it is harmful to another, the information belongs to another, or it just not relevant to her at all). We will be doing that this week with her.

I see a couple of intersecting rings on family and private, and in this situation they run together. They're at the heart of the issue. Even without explicitly saying, "We plan to have a full-on romantic relationship, which will include sex, a lot of great sex, we hope"-- isn't it implied? And refusal to answer on the grounds of privacy is similar to an admission.