New Third Wheel...Maybe

[Atieno]

Hmmm... I wrote that title and even the "taste" of the term "third wheel" makes me uncomfortable, which is one of the many reasons why I'm here.

Anyway to the point of my post. I'm new here and I, like many, come in search of people with a deeper insight and greater understanding of my own situation. I'm not sure if this is the right place, and if it isn't, then my sincerest apologies but I hope that you guys and girls can help me.

I'm a gay guy in his 30's, who's recently met this incredibly dashing, charming and sexy older gent in his 60's. He's been very upfront with me about his current circumstances, in that he's bisexual, a father of adult children, married for 40+ years and he came out to his wife many years ago and they worked through it and decided to stay together.

Since then he partakes in same sex relations in a don't ask/don't tell basis. This continues until the meetings become more regular and it looks like a relationship is forming and he then introduces this chap to the family. He then tries to integrate this person into his family as much as he can. At this juncture he seems to want both sex from me and develop a deeper relationship, however I am not one to sleep around idly or get into relationships without aforethought.

When asked about the rules of his current relationship and the set up thereof his answer was that they are amazingly good friends, but they share a house not a bedroom. I asked if she was okay with his sexuality and he said "okay would be somewhat pushing it" but she accepts it. He confirmed that boyfriends have stayed at his house in the past, which again she "accepts".

My personal history is a fraught one, I have come out of 2 relationships in the past. 1 with a man who was married when we met and I was kept a secret for 6 years, until his wife died. We then spent the next 4 years together until his unfortunate passing. About a year later I got into a 3 year relationship with a man who was separated but not divorced from his wife. Both of these situations caused me feelings of distress and inadequacy. As if I didn't measure up to these men's female partners, which caused issues of anger and upset on my part and constant issues with self worth and self doubt.

I'm now wondering if I have the emotional strength to adapt to a relationship of this format. I vowed never to go near another married man, but he isn't lying to anyone and something tells me the mature thing to do is respect his honesty and give him a chance. Oddly if he wasn't married and she was his partner, or if he had a gay partner, I would probably feel more confidant about giving this relationship a chance, but as it stands I'm deeply worried that I wont be able to cope and adapt to an already established relationship of this manner and just cause hardship to him and his wife, which I genuinely don't want.

Equally my personal yearnings are for a relationship that has many of the trappings of the old fashioned concepts of romance and monogamy. I'm a highly sexed gent but saying that I'm also deeply sensitive, gentle and relationship orientated. My dream is to fall in love and grow together, slowly accommodating each other and falling asleep and waking in each others arms. Rushing home to see each other after work and discussing what we're having for dinner, arguing over who's turn it is to do the hovering and so on... However it seems that accepting this relationship would result in many of those things being sacrificed and I genuinely do not enjoy the concept of feeling secondary to another person for a lifetime, or as if I'm only needed to accommodate his desire for sex with men; as I value myself more than that; nor do I wish to limit my relationship prospects to sex and pillow talk.

Additionally as a lawyer and someone who lost a previous partner out of wedlock, I'm aware of the financial damage that can be inflicted upon someone when losing their partner. So even if we did work our relationship in some kind of balance, it would always be a case that we could never build anything together which took joint finances (such as a house etc...) as I'm unprepared to having issues of what goes where crop up again. (I know this is somewhat jumping far ahead, but after having this happen to me once before, I am loathe to ever let it happen to me again. When my previous partner died his children took everything and I couldn't bring myself to fight them on it, due to the knowledge that if he were alive , fighting them on it would have hurt him)

He has assured me that with his last partner, they did truly love one another and he wasn't using this gent to replace the gay sex he couldn't have with his wife. However considering the terms of his wife "accepting" but not really embracing the circumstances and that he and her no longer share a bedroom, I am deeply concerned that my presence would do two things, firstly hurt her and secondly serve as a sexual surrogate for his passions, which is less than I want from my life. I do not want to hurt anyone and nor do I feel completely comfortable with flaunting something in front of his wife who may just be accepting it because she doesn't want him to leave, as this doesn't seem like polyamory to me and anything it makes me feel incredibly sensitive towards his wife, as if I just want to hug her and tell her everything will be alright.

I honestly don't understand how to go forward here. I am a mono myself and the idea of not aiming towards growing old together in a relationship, frightens me. I'm deeply confused as to what I should expect and what I have a right to ask and what fears and doubts I should express.

I am loathe to ever be termed someone's third wheel or secondary, as even the terms makes me feel lesser and sad. Is it possible to have a polyamourous relationship where everyone is equal? I don't mean everyone ticks a certain number of boxes or everyone gets an equal amount of time together but rather that all 3 of us could be rushing home to see each other. That the 3 of us could live together and grow old together in a way that was enriching for all. That I could be running home to a man I loved and a woman I considered one of my best friends or is it more common to have fairly separate lives with the primary enjoying a relationship more reminiscent of a monogamous relationship, just with me occasionally popping up here and there throughout, as one thing I do know is that I would be uncomfortable with being a part time partner.


I hasten to say if anything I've said is offensive, it is by pure accident. I am completely clueless on this topic and have no idea what's considered crass to ask and what isn't, I'm just quite confused. Any help or advice on how to unravel this snarl of thoughts and emotions I have myself in now, would be most appreciated or even if from my words you feel I would be even suited to a relationship of this nature?

Warmest Regards,

Atieno

 

[reflections]

Hi Atieno,

Welcome to the forum! I hope we can be of help. I'm so sorry to hear about all of the loss you've experienced over the years. It sounds incredibly painful and I hope you are doing better now.

As for your question, can everyone be equal, my answer is yes (see my signature below). Roger, Jack, and I plan to move in together in the next year, and we're all very excited about it. I prefer to live with my partners (and Taylor prefers her own space currently), and I consider Jack and Roger my life partners. Jack and Roger are also friends, so that helps tremendously in terms of navigating all this. I know this is definitely not what all people would want, but there's lots of people here who have lives similar to your description.

However, I'm not sure your partner's wife is ever going to want this. "Accepts" is so very different than "embraces," "wants," and "supports." On top of that, your partner himself might not want that kind of life. Have you talked to your partner about what he wants? What he imagines his future to be? It sounds like he is hoping for a long term relationship, but the level of "entanglement" (e.g., financial, living space) might differ wildly from yours. Even among poly people, I know my hopes for level of "entanglement"/entwined lives with my partners is very different than some other people here. It depends how much you want to ride the "relationship escalator" and how that compares to your guy AND his wife's willingness/encouragement in this over time.

I hate to say it, but I could see this getting quite messy and ending up in a lot of heartbreak. It'll be up to you to figure out if the potential benefits outweigh the risks.

Wishing you the best

 

[opalescent]

Atieno,

This man has been honest and upfront with you. Good for him.

However, he's not offering what your heart truly wants (and deserves). He will not be able to give you the relationship style you want. There will (very likely) be no growing old together, no introductions of you as the partner, you may or may not be truly welcome in his own home, his wife may 'accept' you but only as long as you never truly be fully who you are - i.e. his full partner, lover, and friend.

Look, it seems like they have worked out a difficult situation as perhaps best they can. But their best still means you are almost certainly constricted in who you can be publicly and (probably) privately. "Don't ask, don't tell' arrangements rarely indicate full blown acceptance and approval of a difficult compromise - they are rather a bandaid slapped over a open wound. (Sometimes 'DADT' agreements that are term limited work to help ease one partner's fears to the point that a DADT is no longer in place but if they last years, decades - that's usually not the case, at least from the admittedly not scientific sample of people who post here.) He's probably managed only because he is not putting his boyfriends or casual lovers into her face or space all that much. Which means they are limited in the roles they can play in his life. And you don't want that. You want it all - the romance, the growing old, the picket fence, the openness, the intimacy.

And you know what? You deserve that. Have you noticed the pattern here? Your last few relationships have been with men who cannot offer you what you really, truly want. He's not being a bad person here. But he's not offering what you crave. Do the hard thing and turn him down. There are men out there who want what you want and are not married. (Or if they are married, their partners accept and embrace that they want other partners and are willing to be poly where multiple loving relationships are possible.)

Wishes you the best.

 

[GreenAcres]

Atieno,

Welcome to the boards. I am so sorry to hear of you losses, and the additional difficulties surrounding them. It is absolutely possible to have an equal "V" relationship, which is what you'd be hoping for. I just really doubt it happening in this case.

Honestly, I would remove myself from this relationship for many reasons:

-You are mono at heart. Poly is not a lifestyle you want.
-You want a primary relationship. That is almost certainly not going to happen in this instance, and you very probably will be "stuck" as a secondary for the duration of the relationship. If this isn't what you want, it's not fair to anyone to pretend it's okay.

-You will almost certainly be a secret to family and friends from the sounds of things (though I could be wrong about this one--have you talked about it?.

-Your partner's wife does not embrace her husband's lifestyle, and that is likely to end badly for you in the long run in several possible ways:
-In the long-term, sharing assets and a social safety net seems important to you. As a lawyer, you may already know this; but, unfortunately, you are correct, you will not have any legal protections for shared assets with this man. In fact, in almost all states, you'd have exactly the opposite: his legal wife would have a claim to them in cases of divorce or death. You would almost certainly lose any contestation of a will or trust because he is legally married, and, even if she agreed to the relationship at the time, people get really crazy when a loved one dies. At the very least, if you are a not a lawyer who specializes in marital law, you should see a lawyer who is about this before proceeding. No, it's not too early to do so. This is an issue that is important to you, and it's better to know what you are getting into before getting so far in that you are left truly heartbroken.
-Living together seems, at best, unlikely, and at worst, really explosive. His wife doesn't embrace poly or his sexuality, so it seems difficult to believe she's suddenly going to be a-ok with it under her roof.

I will also ask how sure are you that she knows? DADT can be a way used to "trap" an outside partner into a cheating situation. It's not always, of course, but it is one reason I, personally, won't date someone with a DADT policy in place. I have no way of knowing if they're being honest with everyone, and have seen too many cases where it's just a lie. Even more often among cheaters I've seen and heard "Oh, we don't even share a bed anymore, we're most like roommates." Honestly, that's never once been true in any case where a personal also claimed there were DADT (I spent a large amount of time on several infidelity forums and in a support group in my early years, when I found out a partner had been having multiple ongoing affairs behind my back). How have you confirmed any of his story?

You deserve to pursue the relationship style that you truly want.

 

[GalaGirl]

I vowed never to go near another married man, but he isn't lying to anyone and something tells me the mature thing to do is respect his honesty and give him a chance

I would pose that the mature thing for you to do is to respect your own limits and keep your vow to yourself. You made it for good reasons. You are also mono.

You felt like this in two previous relationships with married men:

Both of these situations caused me feelings of distress and inadequacy. As if I didn't measure up to these men's female partners, which caused issues of anger and upset on my part and constant issues with self worth and self doubt.

You did not like putting yourself in that situation before. You went against your own grain and it felt yucky.
So could choose to skip repeating that a third time.

Could choose to date non-married men only who are free to offer you the mono shape you like best. He is not free to do that.

Could also recognize that being honest is a good thing. But it can still not be a good match for you. Honesty alone is not enough.

Want to buy my car? I'll be honest, it is more than 10 years old, sometimes doesn't crank, and the door seals are rotting and have to be changed. Why aren't you buying it and giving my car a chance? Probably because my offer is just not your scene, even if I was honest.

I think this is like that. He's been honest about his situation as far as you can tell. But you already know it is not your scene.

You could be honest back and tell him so. You could return (honest info) with (honest info.) Not trying to return (honest info) with (some dates even though this isn't the mono thing I want ultimately.)

You could say "I'm sorry. It's not match. I don't date married men. Lovely as you are, you are not actually free to offer me the mono shape relationship I enjoy best at this time. I don't want a poly DADT scene. Not into that. We are better just letting that idea go."

Open models come in many flavors. It is DIY so that article will not list them all.

But if you know yourself as monoamorous (love only 1 sweetie) and like a monogamous (2 people max) relationship shape best, open models with more people are not likely to appeal.

You could go for what you want, rather than bend yourself into a pretzel trying to fit something that you know is not a fit.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Atieno,

Re (from OP):

"I'm deeply confused as to what I should expect and what I have a right to ask and what fears and doubts I should express."

It's possible the book "More than Two" could help.

Re:

"Is it possible to have a polyamourous relationship where everyone is equal?"

I certainly believe so.

Re:

"He partakes in same sex relations in a don't ask/don't tell basis. This continues until the meetings become more regular and it looks like a relationship is forming and he then introduces this chap to the family. He then tries to integrate this person into his family as much as he can."

That part sounds promising.

However:

"They are amazingly good friends, but they share a house not a bedroom. I asked if she was okay with his sexuality and he said 'okay would be somewhat pushing it' but she accepts it."

Not so promising.

For the kind of integrated life you've been dreaming of, I would think his wife would have to be okay with living that life with you. If the most she can do is accept that you're there, then I don't think her husband will be able to integrate you as much as you had hoped. He can try, sure, but will he be successful?

I think you should discuss more details with this man you're interested in, and if it were me, I'd want to discuss the situation with his wife as well. Which, I guess you can't do if it's don't ask, don't tell? Ulf. Then I'd at least want to talk to her as soon as possible ...

Given that even the title of this thread sets you ill at ease, I am thinking there are more negatives than positives for you in this situation. Maybe if the husband was willing to introduce you to his wife right away, and she was willing to discuss things right away, then I might consider it, but otherwise I don't know.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.