No-No-Notorious Notorious

[Ostrich]

So my husband DAG is a notorious flirt.

He can't help himself, and I allow it because it makes him happy. He enjoys it. It gets him noticed, and satisfies his ego.

Up front, I've never discussed boundaries with him on this issue, because I’m not sure what boundaries I need. Also, how to express those boundaries.
I know what I’d wish he’d do regarding his flirting, but I don’t have any control over that.

This is me finding my boundaries, and communicating those clearly.

He’s gotten himself in trouble with those he has flirted with. One person, El Lay, made a coast-to-coast trip to meet DAG. The minute I picked them up at the airport, I knew El Lay had sex on the agenda for this meeting.

See? Someone took 4 days out of their life to meet DAG, only to come away disappointed. I have no idea if the possibility of sex was even discussed. Evidently it wasn’t, as there was a clear indication from El Lay that it was a possibility, and throughout those 4 days, DAG was like a hockey goalie, denying all the shots.

OK, it wasn’t the actual flirtation which got him in trouble, but the lack of communicating and comprehending expectations.

So, back to the lack of boundaries. Maybe I don’t need any at this point, because I don’t care about with whom, or how he flirts (writing all this out has me reconsidering implementing any). If it makes him happy, so much the better.

However, I’d like to ask the members of this board what boundaries they have in place to be empowered regarding a flirtatious spouse? Maybe from those boundaries, I can consider adopting some for my own use.

 

[AlwaysGrowing]

So, in terms of vocab - boundaries are typically considered personal. So YOU can't have a boundary about DAG's behavior. You can only have a boundary about YOUR behavior.

So my boundary regarding flirtation would be "I'm not going to be on a date with someone overtly flirting with someone else." Then if my date starts flirting I would probably warn them that I'm uncomfortable. If it continues I would leave.

A RULE (or relationship agreement if it is mutually decided) would be "No flirting while we're together." Then if it happens, it's an argument or whatever built in consequences were decided upon because a rule/agreement was broken. A built in consequence could be "No flirting on dates. If someone flirts on a date, they will have to sleep in the other room until the other forgives them."

My own boundaries tend to be very basic - be a respectful partner. Don't be overly flirty in ways that negatively impact me. So if you're flirting with a mutual friend? We might have an issue because that could get messy for me. Flirting with a stranger? You do you! Have fun! Flirting with our server or barista or whatever on a date? No biggie unless it crosses the "actually trying to get somewhere" (because then date is no longer quality time FOR ME)or "making someone uncomfortable at work" (because harassment isn't cool) lines. Flirting with someone who drops everything to travel to see you? I have nothing to do with it! All you.

I'm a flirty person. Boy is as well. Hubby tends to be more professional. We have never had any real issues stemming from flirting because it's usually VERY casual or in private.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm confused.

See? Someone took 4 days out of their life to meet DAG, only to come away disappointed. I have no idea if the possibility of sex was even discussed. Evidently it wasn’t, as there was a clear indication from El Lay that it was a possibility, and throughout those 4 days, DAG was like a hockey goalie, denying all the shots.

How is any of that YOUR problem? Was El Lay staying at your house or something?

Let me repeat back what I think you are asking. I quote just to visually block it off. Blue is mine.

I need help setting my personal boundaries in regards to my husband DAG getting into problems with his flirting.

• I don't mind if he flirts with people. It makes him happy.
  
• I mind when his flirting leads to a lack of communicating and comprehending expectations with... you? other people? Both?

That makes problems for me because...

• I don't want to pick up his people at the airport?
• Feel weird watching him dodge some horny person he flirted with/led on in my house?
• Something else?

If that is the case above? What you pick can be whatever you want as your personal boundary statements. They are statements you make for YOU to obey to keep you safe from shenanigans. Your expectations for how YOU will behave.

Example:

My new personal boundaries for this are going to be...

• I don't deal with his flirt people at all. Not even to pick them up at the airport.
• If Dag makes problems with his flirt people, I don't mediate or solve it or anything. It is his mess to clean up.

If Dag wants to to pick people up? You check your personal boundary.

You say "Nope. I am not willing to do that." Cuz picking up people goes against your expected behavior of NOT picking up people.

If Dag or the flirt person tries to rope you into their weird? You check your personal boundary for your behavior. And you say "No, thanks" if they want you to mediate or solve things because saying "yes" would be YOU crossing YOUR personal boundary you set for yourself to keep you safe from shenanigans.

"Flirt" to me means "behave as though attracted to or trying to attract someone, but for amusement rather than with serious intentions."

My DH doesn't flirt. He's too shy. I don't have to have personal boundaries for how I would behave if his flirting behavior stepped on my toes somehow because he just doesn't flirt with other people.

I'm the one who flirts. And he enjoys watching when I do it.

My own personal boundaries around my flirting?

• No confusing (flirting with no intent to pursue) with (hitting on people with intent to pursue.)
  
• No flirting with relatives, work people, kids, etc where it would be weird or unprofessional.
  
• No flirting with strangers. Flirt with friends instead. Because I need to know they have the same definition of flirting that I do -- it's for fun, and it's not really going anywhere. (As a woman, I don't need unwanted attention from flirting with people who think I'm hitting on them and want something back and get mad, pushy, or creepy if I say "no.")
• No flirting / continue flirting if I notice my spouse/friends growing uncomfortable.

Galagirl

 

[Tinwen]

It seems to me you're having some issue with your husband's morality?
Like, you're thinking: "It would be fair to tell the other person that you don't plan on having sex if you are going on vacation with them and they clearly expect it. I'd hate to be the other person. So inconsiderate." So he's not strictly speaking crossing your boundaries, but his behaviour brings up some anger and inner conflict for you.

I encourage you to speak about this with him, make him aware what you're thinking about this specific situation, and understand his point of view too. Maybe he'd find it useful, next time, to have more straightforward communication. Or maybe you misunderstood the situation somehow - that's possible. In the rather unlikely case he doesn't see an issue and you still do after you talk, you'll have to decide how to deal with your different standards in how to treat people, I'm not sure what to suggest. You could make a boundary such as "If I see something that I don't find ok, I'll tell him once and stop being involved with the situation."

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Ostrich,

You don't seem to be bothered by DAG's flirtatiousness, you just want to play it safe in case there's something you haven't thought of. Personally, I don't know of any great harm that could come of flirting, but you did notice that DAG failed to communicate his intentions to El Lay, and this led to El Lay getting disappointed which perhaps made you feel, a little, just a little, uncomfortable. So you might make a rule: "DAG, from now on I want you to communicate clearly with the people you flirt with, and manage your expectations with them." Or you could make a boundary for yourself: "If DAG fails to communicate to someone he is flirting with, like not telling them sex will be denied when they travel cross-country for a four-day trip thinking there will be sex, then I will remove myself from the situation." Or, "then I will tell the person expecting sex that I think DAG has unwittingly misled them." Then you could revise/add to your boundary/rule, if/when you observe future problems from his flirting.

Those are my thoughts anyway.
Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

You don't seem to be bothered by DAG's flirtatiousness, you just want to play it safe in case there's something you haven't thought of. Personally, I don't know of any great harm that could come of flirting, but you did notice that DAG failed to communicate his intentions to El Lay, and this led to El Lay getting disappointed which perhaps made you feel, a little, just a little, uncomfortable.

So you might make a rule: "DAG, from now on I want you to communicate clearly with the people you flirt with, and manage your expectations with them."

That is too controlling of another adult's else love/sex life.

Or you could make a boundary for yourself: "If DAG fails to communicate to someone he is flirting with, like not telling them sex will be denied, when they travel cross-country for a four-day trip, thinking there will be sex, then I will remove myself from the situation."

That is a reasonable option.

Or, "Then I will tell the person expecting sex that I think DAG has unwittingly misled them."

That would be way out of line!

You could revise or add to your boundaries and/or rule, if/when you observe future problems.

Renegotiating is always an option.

Personally, I might just say something to DAG like this, "It seems like you greatly misled El Lay. I see a certain pattern with you flirting heavily and leading people on. I feel uncomfortable with that. You seem to be unaware you're hurting people with your flirting, and that hurts me a little. Also, I'm afraid someday someone might get mad enough, because of frustration, to actually physically attack you.

What do you think?"

 

[Ostrich]

My own boundaries tend to be very basic - be a respectful partner. Don't be overly flirty in ways that negatively impact me. So if you're flirting with a mutual friend? We might have an issue because that could get messy for me. Flirting with a stranger? You do you! Have fun! Flirting with our server or barista or whatever on a date? No biggie unless it crosses the "actually trying to get somewhere" (because then date is no longer quality time FOR ME)or "making someone uncomfortable at work" (because harassment isn't cool) lines. Flirting with someone who drops everything to travel to see you? I have nothing to do with it! All you.

AG, oddly enough, him flirting with mutual friends is OK with me. It's flirting with strangers that gives me pause. Also, I *really* try to stay away from rules. I've burned myself with doing that, and I am now shy of fires.

I'm confused. How is any of that YOUR problem? Was El Lay staying at your house or something?

Yes, El Lay stayed at our house. They were a good house guest, but the interactions between them and DAG became a little tense.

Example:

Quote:
My new personal boundaries for this are going to be...

I don't deal with his flirt people at all. Not even to pick them up at the airport.
If Dag makes problems with his flirt people, I don't mediate or solve it or anything. It is his mess to clean up.

I mind when his flirting leads to a lack of communicating and comprehending expectations with... you? other people? Both?

The lack of communicating and comprehending expectations are what I see as the issue. I am continually improving my abilities on both, but I have a long way to go before I consider these to be acceptable on my part.

Thank you! These suggestions, and the ones you provided in the remainder of your post are very helpful!

It seems to me you're having some issue with your husband's morality? (...)

You could make a boundary such as "If I see something that I don't find ok, I'll tell him once and stop being involved with the situation."

Tinwen, thank you! I never considered questioning my husband's morality. He's usually a stand up guy, but putting in that context, I can refer to a couple of other instances where his morality seemed more flexible than I originally thought.

As to your boundary suggestion, I used that premise on a another boundary I set (which I won't get into here), and he went ballistic. His main argument was 'Why can't you give me the benefit of the doubt for me not doing what is bothering you?' I explained this wasn't a boundary for him, but for me. I'm the one who is abiding by it, not him. Accidents happen, but that doesn't mean it still won't bother me if it is an accident.

Or you could make a boundary for yourself: "If DAG fails to communicate to someone he is flirting with, like not telling them sex will be denied when they travel cross-country for a four-day trip thinking there will be sex, then I will remove myself from the situation." Or, "then I will tell the person expecting sex that I think DAG has unwittingly misled them." Then you could revise/add to your boundary/rule, if/when you observe future problems from his flirting.

Kevin, I think the first one is very helpful. The second one to me seems to border on a rule. I have been burned before by the second approach, by directly interacting with the meta. I am not making that mistake again.

Sorry that I wasn't clear earlier. The meta stayed at our house, so the situation indirectly involved me as well. If El Lay had stayed off-site, then I couldn't care less what happened between those two. I think from this, a boundary could be: If someone you meet online is coming to our house to meet you in person for the first time, I'm making myself scarce. Although this could be a rule we could both live with, for our own safety.

Renegotiating is always an option.

Personally, I might just say something to DAG like this, "It seems like you greatly misled El Lay. I see a certain pattern with you flirting heavily and leading people on. I feel uncomfortable with that. You seem to be unaware you're hurting people with your flirting, and that hurts me a little. Also, I'm afraid someday someone might get mad enough, because of frustration, to actually physically attack you.

What do you think?"

Mags, my sister has told me similar: You always have the option of changing your mind. Great minds think alike! Plus, what you provided is a great conversation starter.

All, thank you for taking time to reply and for the suggestions!!! There are some really good nuggets here. My apologies if the flirting thing has been covered elsewhere on this board. I searched, but nothing really popped up.

As you can tell, I'm not great at making boundaries for myself, but I am learning. As I stated earlier in this post, I made a boundary which was not well received, but I felt empowered because it was about me and my behavior. It's now out in the universe. While I think I get the concept of boundaries, my problem is coming up with one which does not come across as a rule for him. This one was tough for me.

 

[kdt26417]

Sometimes it's hard to know what boundaries to have, until certain situations come up and then it becomes obvious. You know DAG has issues with communication because something actually happened. You then can make a boundary about what *you* will do when his communication is lacking in the future. That's just one example of how actual events can clue you in to what kind of boundaries you'll need.

You also said, that it bothers you somewhat when DAG flirts with strangers. This is another area where you might want to consider having a boundary, but you have to figure out how big of a deal it is to you. Is there something actual about flirting with strangers that you could worry about, like could it lead to something bad, or is it just an internal weakness for you, and something to build up some strength on?

Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.

 

[Ostrich]

Sometimes it's hard to know what boundaries to have, until certain situations come up and then it becomes obvious. You know DAG has issues with communication because something actually happened. You then can make a boundary about what *you* will do when his communication is lacking in the future. That's just one example of how actual events can clue you in to what kind of boundaries you'll need.

You also said, that it bothers you somewhat when DAG flirts with strangers. This is another area where you might want to consider having a boundary, but you have to figure out how big of a deal it is to you. Is there something actual about flirting with strangers that you could worry about, like could it lead to something bad, or is it just an internal weakness for you, and something to build up some strength on?

Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.

I think it's because it could lead to something bad. They are strangers, based on the word 'strange', which could lead to, well, strangeness. Anything good or bad could come of out what I consider to be a very risky roll of the dice. Sometimes he really seems blithe to any possible negative outcomes (Oh, I got murdered with an ax? Who knew?). Again, I am fine with him flirting, because I have accepted that is part of his core being. It's what the flirting could lead to which bothers me.

 

[kdt26417]

I think, then, what you have to decide is, do you need boundaries around the possible consequences of his flirting with strangers (boundaries after the fact), or, do you need a boundary around the flirting with strangers in and of itself (boundaries before the fact)? "If DAG flirts with strangers, then I will" ... you will what? Fill in the blank of how you will respond to this undesirable behavior by DAG. That would be a boundary. In the meantime, have you talked to DAG about what you're afraid might happen when he flirts with a stranger? If you have, how did he respond?

 

[GalaGirl]

I think it's because it could lead to something bad. They are strangers, based on the word 'strange', which could lead to, well, strangeness. Anything good or bad could come of out what I consider to be a very risky roll of the dice. Sometimes he really seems blithe to any possible negative outcomes (Oh, I got murdered with an ax? Who knew?). Again, I am fine with him flirting, because I have accepted that is part of his core being. It's what the flirting could lead to which bothers me.

Maybe the boundary for you is about your home then. Like if they become serious partners, alright. Come on over.

But if this is stranger flirt people, who fly in looking for a lay? They have to stay at a hotel. Not your home. You do not pick them up at airport. Not your guest. They figured out how to fly, they can figure out how to get to hotel. DAG can see them over there. Then whatever weird happens as a result of DAG's miscommunication or flirting can be their problem over THERE and not over here inside your home.

And if he puts himself in harms way? Also doesn't involve you in your home.

To me you sound like you did not enjoy having this stranger guest at your house hoping to get laid while watching "DAG was like a hockey goalie, denying all the shots."

Galagirl

 

[Ostrich]

Maybe the boundary for you is about your home then. Like if they become serious partners, alright. Come on over.

But if this is stranger flirt people, who fly in looking for a lay? They have to stay at a hotel. Not your home. You do not pick them up at airport. Not your guest. They figured out how to fly, they can figure out how to get to hotel. DAG can see them over there. Then whatever weird happens as a result of DAG's miscommunication or flirting can be their problem over THERE and not over here inside your home.

And if he puts himself in harms way? Also doesn't involve you in your home.

To me you sound like you did not enjoy having this stranger guest at your house hoping to get laid while watching "DAG was like a hockey goalie, denying all the shots."

Galagirl

Thank you GG.

I got to know them well enough. And I felt comfortable enough in their presence until it was time for them to leave. Not that I thought they would pull a dangerous stunt, but the situation got really awkward at the end of their stay. But who knows about the next one? I intend to make my concerns known if it happens again.