Not fair! (or immature?)

A

anomaly

New member
Let me introduce you to Grumpy. Grumpy's FWB is Snoopy. Grumpy's live-in partner is Candy. Candy's other partner is Sneezy.
Candy and Sneezy have unprotected sex because Sneezy got tested and is monogamous with Candy.
Grumpy and Candy have always had unprotected sex and continue to do so.
Grumpy would like to have unprotected oral sex with Snoopy and proposes using protection with Candy while doing that to minimize exposure as much as possible.
Candy says that Grumpy can have unprotected sex with Snoopy from time to time, during which Candy and Grumpy will not have any sex. Grumpy will get tested before resuming unprotected sex with Candy.
Grumpy asks if Grumpy and Candy can have protected sex while Grumpy has unprotected sex with Snoopy.
Candy says No way! Candy wants unprotected sex with both partners.

Is Grumpy immature for thinking that this situation isn't fair and that Grumpy is being asked to sacrifice a lot more than Candy?
What would you do if you were Grumpy?
 
Last edited:
So Candy has a hard boundary against protected sex. Is this because protected sex still has risks (herpes, etc.)? Or because she just doesn't like it?

Managing STI risk is tricky and imperfect. Some infections have six month incubation periods, and some infections are virtually undetectable if dormant (and can be dormant for years).

It's difficult to tell whether Candy is managing risk the best way she can (totally valid), or whether she's using risk management as a way to manipulate her partner. She's probably the only one who can answer that, and she may not really be clear on it.

Whining about it is probably not mature. This isn't a question of fairness, so much as a question of what's really motivating her in setting these boundaries. But if she's so set on these boundaries that she'll shift a relationship to non-sexual status, then either the boundaries are really important to her, or the sexual relationship is not important.
 
No Candy is not being unreasonable.

Candy's sexual health would be at risk if Snoopy were to have unprotected or risky sex with another partner other than Grumpy. I would do the same thing as Candy.
 
Is Grumpy immature for thinking that this situation isn't fair and that Grumpy is being asked to sacrifice a lot more than Candy?
Click to expand...

What is Grumpy sacrificing? What does he not find fair?:confused:

To me it sounds fair.

  • Grumpy is in charge of Grumpy's body
  • Candy is in charge of her body
  • Each one gets to pick how and under what circumstances they are willing to share their bodies in sex with a partner.
  • Each and every time they are thinking about sharing sex they can give their consent or not freely.

Grumpy is mad because what? He cannot make Candy share her body in ways she doesn't want to right now?

I am going to guess. I could be wrong. But to me it sounds like maybe Grumpy "gave in" to concurrent unprotected sex with Candy and Sneezy (the "sacrifice") because he expected some kind of "payback" from Candy later. I don't even know if Candy is even aware that this was "the deal." And now that Grumpy wants to "cash in his chip" so he can have concurrent sex with Candy and Snoopy? Candy isn't going there. So he is mad because he had this unrealistic expectation. He wants to blame Candy for not "playing right."

If so? Grumpy wasn't giving consent in good faith. Grumpy could not use his consent like a bargaining chip. He could just give it or not give it.

I think Grumpy could work understand consent better.

http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/01/brill...xual-consent-means-in-everyday-terms-5274497/

To me it IS fair because at the crossroads when Candy asked him if he was willing to share unprotected sex with her while she had unprotected sex with Sneezy, Grumpy was able to say "Yes I am willing to go there" or "No, I am not willing to go there." Choice of how Grumpy shares his body was all his to make. He said ok with him.

Just like at this crossroads where Grumpy is asking Candy is she is willing to share protected sex with him while he has unprotected sex with Snoopy, Candy gets to say "Yes I am willing to go there" or "No, I am not willing to go there." Choice of how Candy shares her body is all hers to make. She says not ok with her. She doesn't want to have protected sex with Grumpy so he can have concurrent sex with both.

How is it not fair that each one gets to pick for themselves how they share their bodies? :confused:
What would you do if you were Grumpy?
Click to expand...

If I were Grumpy, I would decide which matters to me more right now.

1) I value unprotected sex with Snoopy most right now. Price of admission = give up concurrent sex with Candy and Snoopy for a while. Have to test clean first when I want to return to previous arrangement.

2) Value concurrent sex more. Price of admission? No changes in current arrangement.

  • Condoms and so on still on with Snoopy.
  • Unprotected sex with Candy.

3) I want both unprotected sex with Snoopy and concurrent unprotected sex with Candy. Price of admission = keep negotiating and see what is doable.

  • Ask Candy if she'd be willing to share unprotected sex with me while I share unprotected sex with Snoopy if Snoopy tests clean and Closes for a while. If yes?
    • Ask Snoopy if she's willing to test clean and Close for a while.
Galagirl
 
Last edited:
GalaGirl said:
Grumpy is mad because what? He cannot make Candy share her body in ways she doesn't want to right now?

Uh, no. Grumpy is not asking Candy to share her body in ways she doesn't want to. Grumpy is asking Candy if they can use protection and still have sex while Grumpy explores unprotected sex with Snoopy. Grumpy is not going to force Candy to have protected sex or any sex if she doesn't want to. That's not even up for discussion.

I am going to guess. I could be wrong. But to me it sounds like maybe Grumpy "gave in" to concurrent unprotected sex with Candy and Sneezy (the "sacrifice") because he expected some kind of "payback" from Candy later.

No, Grumpy thinks this agreement makes sense and agreed to it in good faith, not to score points. The "sacrifice" has nothing to do with that original agreement. See "control" below.

What makes Grumpy unhappy is that Candy expects him to have unprotected sex with Snoopy just once in a while for a short time before getting tested and resuming unprotected sex with Candy. Grumpy feels that this is like being "given permission" by Candy, who Grumpy knows won't want to go without sex for very long. Grumpy feels that this a kind of "control" - Candy tells Grumpy when he can and cannot have unprotected sex with Snoopy - and that's what strikes Grumpy as unfair.

WAIT, there's more:
One thing that's come out of a later conversation is that Candy (unlike Grumpy) considers unprotected sex as a sign of deeper intimacy/love/commitment. Candy is afraid that Grumpy will get closer/fall in love with Snoopy through having unprotected sex and possibly threaten Candy and Grumpy's relationship. Candy also does not completely trust Grumpy not to go ahead and have unprotected sex anyway with Snoopy. Grumpy would NEVER do this, but the emotions that have been stirred up by this whole discussion merit reflection and more discussion before anything happens.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Hi anomaly,

The thing is, Candy has the right to say yes or no regarding having sex with her own body; this includes deciding under what conditions Candy will have sex.

I think Grumpy will have to decide what he wants more: temporary unprotected sex with Snoopy, or, an uninterrupted flow of sex with Candy.

My 2¢,
Kevin T.
 
Thank you for extra data.

My opinion is still the same -- "my stuff/your stuff. "

  • (Candy's body) is Candy's stuff to manage. (Candy's beliefs) is Candy's stuff to manage.
  • (Grumpy's body) is Grumpy's stuff to manage. (Grumpy's beliefs) is Grumpy's stuff to manage.

Whatever shared things they do, they share that bucket. But some of this is just NOT Grumpy's stuff.


What makes Grumpy unhappy is that Candy expects him to have unprotected sex with Snoopy just once in a while for a short time before getting tested and resuming unprotected sex with Candy.
Click to expand...

That is Candy's expectation. Having this expectation may lead to disappointment for Candy because guess what? Grumpy's body is his to manage and he could choose to have unprotected sex with Snoopy for however long he and Snoopy want. Candy does not get to say how long that goes on. That is on the (Grumpy + Snoopy) layer.

Candy only gets to say how Grumpy can participate in sex with Candy. That is on the (Candy + Grumpy) layer.

She's basically said go ahead, so I think Grumpy could go ahead for however long he wants. Just gets tested when he's ready to return to sex with Candy.

Grumpy feels that this is like being "given permission" by Candy.
Click to expand...

That might be what Grumpy FEELS, but in actuality, he could choose to have unprotected sex with Snoopy as long as he feels like it. (Provided Snoopy is on board with that.) He does not need Candy's "permission" to do whatever with his body.

It's not "permission" he is obtaining but her willingness to accept him as a returning lover later if he goes there. And she IS willing to accept him so I think Grumpy is causing his own upset right now because it sounds like he's the one labeling it "permission" like he's a child or something.

(Candy) won't want to go without sex for very long.
Click to expand...

At that time Candy could make a request for sex with Grumpy.

She could ask him if he is willing to share sex with her. If so, could he get tested and stop having unprotected sex with Snoopy.

He is still in charge of how he shares his body. He could say "Yes, I am willing" or "No, I am not not willing."

If he says no, Candy could choose to change her preferences and offer to share protected sex with Grumpy if she wants sex with Grumpy so much. (Or Grumpy could offer protected sex if he's up for that. )

If he says no, Candy can let go of the want to have sex with Grumpy right now. That's another way Candy could go.

She can make requests but she cannot DEMAND sex from Grumpy.

Grumpy is in charge of how he shares his body, when and with who.

Candy may have to mourn the loss of hegemony now that they are Open, but that's part of the price of admission to being Open. Candy has to learn to cope with her Poly Hell feelings.

Grumpy feels that this a kind of "control" - Candy tells Grumpy when he can and cannot have unprotected sex with Snoopy - and that's what strikes Grumpy as unfair.
Click to expand...

Candy can talk all she wants.

In the end? Grumpy totally has control over how he shares is body, with who, how, and when.

If he wants to have unprotected sex with Snoopy he can go right ahead if Snoopy is willing.

One thing that's come out of a later conversation is that Candy (unlike Grumpy) considers unprotected sex as a sign of deeper intimacy/love/commitment. Candy is afraid that Grumpy will get closer/fall in love with Snoopy through having unprotected sex and possibly threaten Candy and Grumpy's relationship.
Click to expand...

That's all Candy's belief, and Candy's stuff to sort out. She has to make peace with the fact that Grumpy is his own person and he may or may not share her beliefs on that. He is not a copy of her.

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articl...nster-managing-jealousy-in-open-relationships

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Jealousy_Updated_10-6-10.pdf

She might be bumping into the limitations of the primary/secondary open model. and make peace with it becoming co-primary over time, ask Grumpy to Close, or break up with Grumpy because she doesn't want to practice any other model but primary-secondary. Still, her stuff to sort out.

She can ask Grumpy for appropriate help, ask poly community for appropriate help, ask a poly counselor for appropriate help. But she still has to work her stuff out. It's her stuff. Nobody can do it FOR her.

Candy also does not completely trust Grumpy not to go ahead and have unprotected sex anyway with Snoopy.
Click to expand...

If she believes this, Candy could change her sex practices to have protected sex with ALL her partners ALL the time or not share sex at all. Candy is responsible for protecting her body.

Grumpy would NEVER do this, but the emotions that have been stirred up by this whole discussion merit reflection and more discussion before anything happens.
Click to expand...

I think Candy is thinking wonky, and Grumpy is getting over involved in her stuff.

Grumpy could take few steps back from that emotional brouhaha, be ok letting Candy manage her own stuff, and suggest Candy work it out with a poly counselor. If Grumpy is willing to go also, he could offer that.

Bottom line?

  • Candy controls her body.
  • Grumpy controls his.

Each one could manage their own sex practices as they see fit. What lines up will, what does not won't. And whatever joyful or disappointed feelings stem from that? Each one could do their own emotional management.

Everyone carries their own bag.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your response! Grumpy wishes it were that simple for both to carry their own bag, but fears that the relationship would implode if he asked for that. In any case, lots of food for thought here.
 
Most welcome.

Grumpy wishes it were that simple for both to carry their own bag, but fears that the relationship would implode if he asked for that.
Click to expand...

I think Grumpy could focus on what Grumpy wants more of. Not focus on what he doesn't want. That thinking doesn't serve him well if he just ends up feeling paralyzed and like he has no control over his life. When he actually does.

Grumpy could think instead

  • Right now it is hard for each to carry their own bag. This could be a skill for each of us to work on. The shared relationship might grow stronger if we do.
  • Ok, so how do I want to go about growing those skills on my side? So I'm holding up my end of the stick and doing my part of the stuff?

He could realize he doesn't have to ask Candy if he can do his part of the stuff. He could just DO IT. He could start doing it by identifying the stuff. If they get into another argument, Grumpy could try slowing it down.

"I hear you. I see that you are upset. I am here for you and I'm willing to work through this and sort things out. But let's slow this WAY down. I think some of this stuff is going in the wrong bucket. I'm willing to work things out with you, but first we have to agree what stuff goes in which bucket. How about we just ID this time, and then take a break and do a bit more next time? Or do you just want to set an appointment to ID for now and call it a day?"

It's not use talking to Candy if she's emotionally flooded. Grumpy could learn that.

When they can do the ID part of things? Just do that bite. Not more. Something like:

"Ok, let's ID.

  • All this stuff? I think that stuff is my stuff, my responsibility.
  • All this stuff? I think that is your stuff, your responsibility.
  • All this stuff? I think that is shared responsibility. We both tend to that.
  • All this stuff? This has no owner. We need to discern and decide which bucket that stuff goes in next time we talk.

Where do you think the stuff goes?"​

That is good enough for that session. Take a break and come back later to deal with the (no owner) pile.

When THAT time comes? If Grumpy thinks Candy is putting stuff in his bucket that does not belong, he could say, "I am sorry. I am not willing to take that on board in (my bucket) and have it be my stuff. That's either a (shared bucket) thing or a (you bucket) thing or a (trash bucket) thing we all let go of because it isn't happening at this time. What is your preference? "

Get on with the business of sorting the stuff out. It cannot ALL go in Grumpy's bucket. But neither do they have to solve it ALL in one night with a marathon talk session. It's ok to take it in small bites.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
Having been through the same thing last year (with less communication even, sigh), I have to say that it is REALLY important that every person owns their own decision, and while they need to take other people into account, they can't own each other's decisions.

My experience (in short form, you're free to search for the saga if you want ;) ): Djinn wants to have unprotected sex with both her partners, Mal is not comfortable with that, and so offered protected sex with Mal/Djinn so that Djinn could continue to be unprotected with Aladdin. She said no (her choice). Mal then had a choice to make, sex with Djinn or no sex with Djinn since her hard line was unprotected or not all (his choice). His choice could potentially have then forced me to make a choice: sex with him with protection, or no sex. (Turns out he wasn't willing to go unprotected with her while she didn't use protection with other partners, so I didn't have to make a decision. But I know what it would have been... it was a good thought excersise for me in the end, to know where /my/ hard limit was :) )

Its basically "trickle down" decision making. Grumpy needs to make a choice about what is most important to him right now. Candy and Snoopy can then, individually, decide what is most important to them in light of that decision.

(But personally, if you are poly, and you won't let your partner have PROTECTED *ORAL* sex... I feel like that is a control issue and not a safety issue. While not all poly relationships include sex, the vast, VAST majority of them do, and if you didn't expect that going in, what, exactly, did you expect??)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top