One leg of the V, round two

[MyotherB]

Hi everyone! I haven't yet posted in the Introductions, so I'll provide some of the background here. My wife, call her Lyra, posted here first and brought this resource to my attention (original post in the "Am I overthinking it?" thread).

I am the monogamous husband in the second V now that Lyra has initiated. The first relationship was great in a lot of ways for me. Lyra regularly took her (male) partner and me to the same bed (and the sex was amazing). I enjoyed being a part of providing that pleasure for her. She would often be with both of us, whether sitting on our couch watching a movie at home, or out on the town holding both our hands in public, and turn to me with this very deep look of appreciation and say "I love you," with a face that I felt was a thank you for understanding her and allowing her to love another without hate or anger in my heart. Her happiness has always been my happiness, and the way she looked at me then is something I miss deeply in our current arrangement.

I felt a connection with her first lover that was more than just being buddies. We were both crazy for her, and we both enjoyed being her men, together. It also didn't hurt that I am bisexual in my head, but bi-curious only in practice (never been consummated) and I found her first man appealing, and potentially just shy of straight. We all seemed very happy in our relationship initially.

Sadly, the distance between Lyra and her new partner, his developing jealousy of the depth of her relationship with me, and her inability to cope with him having a relationship with anyone other than her driving him to commit monogamy to her, all conspired to end that relationship after around a year.

During that first relationship, I had twinges of jealousy that I felt I coped with well and treated as growing pains. When we started off, I had not expected Lyra to fall in love with him. I thought it would be mostly physical, and hadn't considered the emotional implications. Looking back and knowing her as I do, I either 1) should have known better, or 2) did know better and ignored it.

I feel I handled the revelation that Lyra loved someone other than me pretty damn well, since that definitely was part of the agreement when we opened our marriage bed to others. The term "polyamory" was unknown to either of us at the time. The only truly difficult times I had were when she traveled to Los Angeles to work on the relationship without me (as I couldn't go due to work and family committments). Not too bad for the newly initiated? Well, unfortunately that difficulty has become, for me, the one commanlity between the two relationships she has had.

Near the end, when the emotional damage of rejection landed on her, I didn't cope well, because her relationship with him essentially stripped her away from me as a result of her grief. Someone else having that effect on her damaged me, as it made me feel somehow less important, because suddenly I realized that I alone was not enough to maintain her happiness. I had already known that, intellectually. But until she had hurt that I couldn't fix or lessen in some way, that fact hadn't really sunk in. Logically, after watching both of my parents and damn near everyone else I know, for that matter, go through somewhere between two and five marriages, needing more than one person can give MAKES SENSE. Yay for serial monogamy!! Emotionally, it still hasn't resolved for me.

As an aside, I believe the root cause of said rejection was simply that her lover decided he could not handle being second to another, which he felt he was compared to me. What he said to her at one point was something like, "I want what you and MyotherB have, but I can't have it with you, because he already has it."

I felt I learned a lot during that relationship. I really don't know whether to call it a triad or a V, because although he and I were not sexually more than friends, there was something more there. Maybe nothing more than mutual admiration.... but I'm certain we are now in a V. I'm not sure I'm okay with it.

Now we move on to current events!

Lyra met her current lover while I was deployed (Navy man of 14 years). She first slept with him while I was away, with my (hesitant) permission. This caused tension, simply because I didn't know him, I believe.

I met him while we vacationed back in my hometown about two weeks ago. It eased things a bit, but not completely. Firstly, a large contributor to my acceptance/encouragement for her to be with another man was the concept of sharing her in bed, which is a huge-turn on for me. Her current lover is not nearly as adventurous as we are, and was obviously uncomfortable just seeing me being affectionate with her. Hence, all intimacy has been separate, and I am having an issue with it. For whatever the reason, I struggle with the paradigm of it being either "her and me" or "her and him."

Secondly, a ground rule that we agreed to back before any of this happened was that I would not use her outside relationships as an excuse to bed someone else, as I said that I did not desire to. This has lead to a complication, however, as I have begun to feel similarly to QuestioningMono, in that I feel like I am being played like a chump.

Truthfully, I don't really desire to be with anyone other Lyra, except when she is away with her lover and I am left alone. I don't think it is a revenge thing, or a jealousy thing. I think I am envious of the fact that she doesn't have to be lonely like I do when we are apart, and a desire to be reassured that I'm not playing the doormat for her benefit and my own loss.

I only feel this way when she is away with him, like she is now, while I'm home in WA, while she is with him in CA. Or like when she spent the night with him while we were on vacation, because things were awkward between the three of us when we we together.

Is it strange that I want permission to seek a relationship outside my marriage, even though I'm not adamant about pursuing said relationship? Does this mean I'm not really mono, or does this mean I just can't handle the poly dynamic?

Would it be unfair of me to tell her she can't see someone that can't handle the three of us together? What if I ask her instead of tell her (since I've laid down the law maybe two times in our 20-year relationship ), and she tells me to suck it up?


Shit. Truth be told, I'm not really stoked about her new relationship. I feel like she jumped the gun on it, that he isn't right for us, and she was rebounding. I like the guy on a "Hey, lets drink beer and watch the game" level, but I'm not sure he's the right guy for sharing the ONE love in MY life.

Fire away, folks. I know that was long-winded. Thanks for reading the whole thing, provided you managed to do so.

 

[ray]

Hi and welcome!

I forget who said it (maybe Redpepper), but there is something about not really getting to pick your lover's lovers (aka your metamours). It's hard when you don't connect with someone that your SO really cares for.

I know my SO's wife and I had a bit of a difficult time connecting, as she's pretty quiet. We're finally getting there, I think.

Some relationships enforce a veto power in partner choice. It's not easy though, when you both don't connect. But from what I've seen, it's not uncommon, especially in Vs and triads, to not all connect equally. I think it's like super good luck when you all just click. That seems to be rare.

I'm pretty tired. I am not sure what I'm getting at, so I'm signing off. But good luck!

 

[GroundedSpirit]

Hey there MyotherB,

It sounds like you are handling all this with a very level head. That's an awesome approach. It's too bad the first relationship didn't work out as desired, but, "If wishes were horses, all beggars would ride," as they say.

One of the things that I think helps in general, not only in the realm of relationships, is to not get too excited about potential and possibilities, even when things seem to be flowing in a wonderful direction. It seems that for every up there will be a corresponding down. That's not me being a pessimist, just a realist. Life is like that. Better be prepared. Celebrate the ups, but be ready for the downs and expect them. If they never come and we die in some blissful state, where's the loss in that?

Now, on a more practical level, it's normal to have envy creep into things. You get pleasure from being together as a threesome. For now, you may be left out of that. But remember, it's not all about you. That's the "compersion" part you know of. This is something for her. IF it's good - (notice the capitalization) be happy for her. Her happiness will only leak over to you either directly or indirectly. Is it easy? Hell no! But it is an acquired skill and you will get better at it. It happens rather fast, in actuality.

The second thing, and again, it's common, is this struggle about whether you want another relationship. I advise you to just make sure you are honest with yourself. You may or may not want or need another. You seem like a kind soul, so when considering another relationship, you have to consider the possible ramification of that other person, too, in other words, that you are going into it for the right reasons and intent.

Third, and this is always a tricky one, is your connection/approval of any of her potential interests. This is fertile ground for control drama. You have to be on guard for that. But on the other hand, as many of us have talked about at other times, there is a positive in having another set of eyes in the picture. Sometimes we see things of genuine concern that someone caught up in NRE doesn't see. Just make sure that conversations around this are genuine. Be careful about not creating monsters where they don't truly exist (because of envy or jealousy). Understand (and explain) that because of your love for her, your first concern is for her-- concern and responsibility. If you see wolves on the lawn, you have an obligation to protect her. Just make sure those wolves are real. And you may need to bring in yet another set of eyes to verify that.

But other than that, you seem like a natural. Just try to keep a level head about all the various things that come up, and they will.

Going for long walks alone helps me to keep my clarity.

Good luck. Please keep us posted.

 

[MyotherB]

GS, thank you for your advice.

My problem right now is that my heart isn't nearly as level as my head. I fear that Lyra's need for more than just me is affecting how I feel about her. For almost 20 years, she has been my everything. Every time she is away, I feel rejected. I can feel the dynamic between us changing, and it scares me. A lot. I don't personally want to want someone else, but the empty space her other relationships are placing on my heart are making me wonder if I will continue to be happy with her alone.

The way I am made, I need someone to need me. I know she loves me, but it feels, in a way, like she is moving on from me, and the fact that I am not everything to her any longer may make her less of what I need to be happy.

I don't want to be insecure. It is unattractive and weak. I fear what her pursuing another relationship will do to our rapidly changing relationship.
I feel like I want things back the way they were over a year ago. My head knows that ship already sailed. Adapting to this and finding a way for us to be happy together in this new landscape is going to be.... challenging.

I think that long walk alone is in order.

 

[MyotherB]

The mono in a married couple with one side going poly has an uphill battle. The thing I have observed, and this isn't always the case, is that the mono tends to be too reliant on the partnership, instead of realizing there are other relationships out there. So many I have seen online have no friends outside of the monogamous relationship.

This creates a real problem when the poly person starts going out. They are so dependent on the relationship that they feel loneliness. They start to go out and build other friendships and that helps. But then what? While processing their partner being poly they could possibly process it for themselves. I wonder how things would be for them if they had a social life outside of the monogamous relationship, if they had friends to lean on, and weren't so dependent on the primary relationship.

I have also been worried about this point that Ariakas made in another thread. I think it is most often true that to find the source of any unhappiness we suffer, we need look no further than ourselves.

Sadly, realizing the root of an issue is a hell of a lot different than fixing it.

 

[redpepper]

Is it strange that I want permission to seek a relationship outside my marriage, even though I'm not adamant about pursuing said relationship? Does this mean I'm not really mono, or does this mean I just can't handle the poly dynamic? Would it be unfair of me to tell my wife she can't see someone that can't handle the three of us together? What if I ask her instead of tell her, and she tells me to suck it up?

I haven't read anyone else's posts here, but I wanted to respond right away. Sorry if there are any repeats.

You don't need to ask "permission" to do anything in a relationship, really. It would come across as untrusting to expect her to ask for permission to do things, so why would you need permission? It would seem to me that you are handing over your power, if you were my husband, and that would make me feel very uncomfortable. I would prefer that you discuss with me the boundaries around your venturing out to have another relationship, rather than ask if it's okay to.

Definitions of who you are are not really the issue here, I don't think. Just do what your heart says is the right move, and then check in with your partner to make sure her heart will be okay if you move forward. Again, negotiate.

Telling anyone what to do doesn't seem to work out that great. I think perhaps it might be better to discuss what could come of her relationships. It just seems to make things easier when everyone can be relaxed and comfortable when they hang out. It's a noble goal to achieve, but it could take time and patience. So give it time, be patient. It's her decision whom she continues dating. Chances are if it becomes too uncomfortable for her to be with him, because her need for all of you to hang out, if is not met over and over again, then it will die down, and he will not become anyone particularly close to her.

 

[MyotherB]

You don't need to ask permission to do anything in a relationship. It would come across as untrusting to expect her to ask for permission to do things. So why would you need permission? It would seem to me that you are handing over your power, if you were my husband, and that would make me feel very uncomfortable. I would prefer that you discuss with me the boundaries around your venturing out to have another relationship, rather than ask if it's okay to.

A definition of who you are is not the issue here. Just do what your heart says is the right move and then check in with your partner to make sure her heart will be okay if you move forward.

Lyra and I are very new to this, compared to the length of our relationship prior to allowing others in, so she and I had agreed that she would ask prior to pursuing anyone. Upon reflection, it seems silly, because one's heart never asks permission to feel attached to someone, but hay was laid down early. It may be worth renegotiating, but for the time, it stands.

She is far more possessive than I, and had agreed early that I would remain monogamous. This point has been revisited by me a few times, and the result has always been... hurt. She knows she is overly possessive, and has said it is something she wants to change, but that has been more in reference to her others than to me.

So as things are, if I were to pursue a relationship with another, I think Lyra would be devastated. To attempt to do so without her blessing would be tragic for our relationship. I am confident that at this point if I asked to pursue someone, it would be a disaster.

The principle of the matter is important, yet in practice I feel the point is currently moot, as I am trying to learn to be less reliant on her for my happiness, and the last thing I need is another heart to juggle. I need some time to work on me first. The rest can wait.

 

[redpepper]

So as things are, if I were to pursue a relationship with another, I think Lyra would be devastated. To attempt to do so without her blessing would be tragic for our relationship.

I think this is highly hypocritical. What is good for her, should be just as good for you, if it should come along for you. I agree, to attempt something without her blessing could or would be disastrous, but I really think she needs to look at her hypocrisy with this one. It's a bit on the polygamy/polyandry side of things. If that is what you agree to for ever and ever, amen, that's fine. But obviously it is a concern or you wouldn't be here wondering about it.

I do understand how she feels, however. I struggled to accept that my husband PN was venturing out on his own into the poly community to find loves. He has a one-track mind and is not the best at being able to multi-task where anything is concerned, let alone polyamorous relationships. I was concerned. I would've preferred he not go there. I had to really bite my tongue and not let on my hypocrisy to him too much, so that he could do his own exploring. I had to remind myself that I am not in control of his life. I do not have a right to tell him what will happen, just because I had an experience, and he hasn't asked. I need to be a comforting and caring home for him to come back to, one that accepts him for all the mess-ups I thought he might make. Turned out that I was right about some things, but wrong about others.

What I hadn't banked on was how much he would change and grow and how much independence and self esteem/worth he would create in his life! So it was worth biting my tongue, and just waiting.

I am trying to learn to be less reliant on her for my happiness. The last thing I need is another heart to juggle. I need some time to work on me first. The rest can wait.

Well, as I said above, my experience with PN was seeing how much going out and exploring other people that took his fancy helped him with the work he needed to do on himself. He became less reliant on me, for sure. But he did struggle with the juggle. I was right about that one!

 

[MyotherB]

I think this is highly hypocritical. What is good for her, should be just as good for you if it should come along for you. I agree, to attempt something without your blessing would be, could be disastrous, but I really think she needs to look at her hypocrisy with this one. It's a bit on the polygamy/polyandry side of things and if that is what YOU agree to for ever and ever amen then that is fine, but obviously it is a concern or you wouldn't be here wondering about it.

I do understand what she feels however. I had to remind myself that I am not in control of his life, I do not have a right to tell him what will happen just because I had an experience and he hasn't asked and I need to be a comforting and caring home for him to come home to... one that accepts him for all the mess ups I thought he might make.
My experience with PN was seeing how much going out and exploring other people that took his fancy helped him on with the work he needed to do on himself. He became less reliant on me. He did struggle with the juggle.

I don't disagree that it is hypocritical. How my actions would make her feel, though... how does she control that? I had this talk with a childhood friend, mutual to Lyra and me, earlier this evening. She, like just about everyone that we are "out" to, expressed the same concern that you have, that Lyra has placed me in a position that is unfair.

I agreed to remain monogamous because I felt no need for anyone else, at the time. I'm still uncertain that I need an emotional (romantic?) connection outside of Lyra. I know for certain that I need to find new or re-kindle old platonic relationships. But these needs were not apparent at the time. Honestly, they were not apparent until very, very recently.

She is very possessive of her men. She recognizes this as a fault, has stated so, and has expressed a desire to learn to reduce her jealousy. Would my pursuit of another expedite her growth toward that goal? Perhaps. Is exploring what a relationship outside our marriage might hold for me important enough to me to push her boundaries? Not yet. I do not think she is ready.

 

[redpepper]

I don't disagree that it is hypocritical. How my actions would make her feel though... how does she control that? I had this talk with a childhood friend... She, like just about everyone that we are "out" to, expressed the same concern that you have, that Lyra has placed me in a position that is unfair.
I agreed to remain monogamous because I felt no need for anyone else, at the time. I'm still uncertain that I need an emotional (romantic?) connection outside of Lyra. I know for certain that I need to find new or re-kindle platonic relationships. But these needs were not apparent at the time. Honestly, they were not apparent until very, very recently.
She is very possessive of her men. She recognizes this as a fault, has stated so, and has expressed a desire to learn to lessen her jealousy. Would my pursuit of another expedite her growth toward that goal? Perhaps. Is exploring what a relationship outside our marriage might hold for me important enough to me to push her boundaries? Not yet. I do not think she is ready.

I don't think you need to hold her hand when it comes to her emotions. They are hers to deal with, not yours. You didn't expect her to look after your emotions to the point of not doing what she felt was the best course of action, that made her feel emotionally healthy, did you?

She has placed you in a situation that is unfair... but you agreed to accept that situation and can now not accept it. You decide who puts you in situations, not anyone else. If you are not comfortable, then it is time to negotiate a change of boundaries. They do not stand still in polyamorous or monoamorous relationships. Needs and desires change over time. Boundaries needs to change to accommodate who we become.

It's all very well to say that you are possessive over your men (hell, I am too), but that doesn't make it okay to allow that to continue. I have to work on that and face my jealousy and issues around that. That is my job in my relationships. I don't get to sit here and "own" my men, just because it is hard for me sometimes when they find others to love or be with in a connected way. I would be ashamed of myself for allowing that to continue to exist in me.

You should go and do what you need to to grow, I think. See what it is that would make your life better and more emotionally comfortable and enjoyable. She will have to face her fears. You will have to work on that with her, without backing down and allowing her emotions to cloud your goals for yourself. You have one life to live and it is all yours to live. You know best as to when you intend to break out of the mold she has cast you in. But starting to talk about it and strategize might be the best bet before actually doing anything or beginning to connect with others on a level that is more intimate than you might have done before discovering polyamory.

 

[MyotherB]

I don't think you need to hold her hand when it comes to her emotions. They are hers to deal with, not yours. You didn't expect her to look after your emotions to the point of not doing what she felt was the best course of action, that made her feel emotionally healthy, did you?

Herein lies my dysfunction. I have known for a long time that I martyr myself for those I love. I protect and enable the frailties in those dear to me, often absorbing hurt to keep them safe. Until recently, I was comfortable in this.

Did I ever expect her to not be herself to protect me or my feelings? Absolutely not. Nor do I expect that now. That role was mine, as provider and protector. I have been, for some time, the great insulator. I do my best to let her be whatever she needs, but deny myself anything I feel may bring her pain. It is not very masculine (recalling your statement about giving over power, previously) and in the distant past, that sacrafice made me resentful, but it was long ago buried. (Not resolved, mind you, although I do not consciously harbor any ill will.)

I was the White Knight in Shining Armor. Romantic. Proud. Vain.

Foolish.

Until her first lover, and now P, were introduced, I did not truly grasp that I was unhappy. I smothered myself in her, and she filled the void where my life and friends should have been. I was completely content in her alone. Now she is occasionally removed, and I realize that I have shelved my own needs and desires. And that it is not okay. I fully realize that now.

She has placed you in a situation that is unfair, but you agreed to accept that situation and can now not accept it. You decide who puts you in situations, not anyone else. If you are not comfortable, then it is time to negotiate a change of boundaries.

This is a difficult shift in paradigm for me, but I acknowledge that you are right. I have put myself in this place, and to remove myself will mean conflict, and hurt, and ultimately growth. But the conflict... I fear it. I avoid such things, to my own detriment. I am more comfortable with maintaining a prejudicial status quo, than rocking the boat with asserting my own needs.

I am fearful of the results of needing something more than she is ready to give.

.It's all very well to say that you are possessive over your men (hell, I am too), but that doesn't make it okay to allow that to continue. I have to work on that and face my jealousy and issues around that. That is my job in my relationships. I don't get to sit here and "own" my men, just because it is hard for me sometimes when they find others to love or be with in a connected way. I would be ashamed of myself for allowing that to continue to exist in me.

I am certain that, if put in that context, Lyra would feel both guilt and shame for trying to "own" me, though I don't believe she does so with malicious intent. She has expressed feeling guilt for her outside endeavours in the past, which I worked hard to quell. If she feels guilt for the current lopsidedness of our current arrangement, I do not know.

She will have to face her fears. You will have to work on that with her, without backing down and allowing her emotions to cloud your goals for yourself.

I have not progressed even remotely close to the point where I can prevent her emotions from clouding my judgement. Too long on the other side of the line. Many of the revelations I have had.... they have come in the last 48 hours. Your words are all spot on. I just can't move that fast.

 

[redpepper]

It's not uncommon for people to martyr themselves for their partner. Sometimes this is a lifelong thing, and isn't worth changing, as it can work for some. But it really doesn't seem to work in polyamorous relationships. We are forced to be independent and to look out for our own interests more. We need to, because it just doesn't work to push those feelings of resentment down when they become about being left at home with the kids while one's partner is out fucking another guy for the third night in a row, or a partner taking another man to a family function that was previously enjoyed by you, and so on.

That is really big shit. It's not about paying for the groceries because one makes more money than the other. It's big emotional stuff. We, as polyamorous people, have to advocate for our best interests, or our relationships will simply end in pain, suffering, anger and a whole lot of resentment. We advocate for ourselves while keeping others in mind and empathizing.

I can imagine this is a shift! A big one. It's okay, though. It will all be good and worth it if you decide to embrace it and face your fear rather than martyr yourself again. It is hard work, the work of a lifetime, to face our fears about ourselves and our loved ones. But it is moving in ways that I simply can't explain. It's like telling someone what it is like to have a child, or what it is like to be married. You just can't explain it.

Another way to think of this is from her perspective. Does she really want to live with someone in her life that is resentful of her and what she does? Would that not cause the guilt? Are you not in effect causing her guilt by being a martyr? Are you not possibly creating shame in her because of your martyrdom? She is not gaining from this, I think. She is losing out because you haven't faced your fear yet. She is kept in her situation because of it. You are keeping each other there and both choosing to be there.

I think a discussion about what will happen next is warranted. Maybe talking to her about your dynamic and discussing ways in your everyday life that you can hand over some responsibility to her that you have been either rescuing her from, or keeping her from, and her allowing you to be your own person, your own man, that she can be proud of.

When PN goes out with someone for the first time, I am now proud of him and he of himself. I watch him leave with a swelling feeling of, "There is my man, so handsome, such good values and integrity. I know he is trustworthy and solid with me, and he will dazzle her with how wonderful he is." We took a long time to get there, but we have. It wavers, but we have. He is there, I am here and we are a complete team. There is no coach, just team players. We don't need a coach. We do it all together as separate adults. Now Mono is added to that team, after two years of making sure that we can all come together as team players and not try and be coach.

 

[MyotherB]

I have told her over the phone twice in the last few days that I have had some revelations about myself, and that I have some stuff to work on. I thanked her, and that kind of confused her, truthfully, because I have been vague, as I want to have the discussion we need face-to-face.

A year ago, I never would have thought that inviting another man into our marriage bed would be a catalyst for self discovery and growth. I guess anything that makes you evaluate your life in depth will lead you to change, if you don't fight it.

I've never been so scared and excited in my life. Come what will, I will be better for all of this.

Thank you all for the therapy.