Open relationship with pick up artist

kaduhwin

New member
I'm new to this site and to polyamory as well. I am a 24 year old female who up until very recently, had been single for 6 years. About eight months ago I met an amazing guy and its been one hell of a roller coaster ride since finding out months after meeting him that he did not believe in labels- refusing to have the boyfriend/ girlfriend title and was only willing to partake in open relationships. Initially I hesitated. After a two year relationship with a guy who constantly cheated, and the jealous/paranoid/ snooping traits I picked up along the way, I feared that I would again become engulfed in those horrible emotions. I didn't want to share. But because of the strong connection I felt for him, I decided to just accept it, enjoy my time with him, and the minute I felt I couldn't handle it anymore, end it. Looking back, it was a very naive, selfish idea.

I'm having a difficult time dealing with the idea of his being with multiple people, especially since he is a practicing Pick Up Artist (an individual who trains in the skills of finding, attracting, and seducing women) his success rides on the high amount of successful attempts he has picking up girls. His goal being to have his own dating agency. And I want to whole heartedly support him and his goals but the idea of his actively engaging with, flirting, kissing, and sleeping with numerous girls on a frequent basis, makes me engulfed with feelings of insecurity, jealousy, and anger. And it doesn't help that our "dates" are extremely sporadic- sometimes every two weeks, even though we live walking distance from each other. In my mind, once the weather becomes better here in New York, he will have less time for me, because he'll be out picking up girls...

I've realized my unsatisfaction. And in multiple occasions expressed these thoughts to him, to which he promised he'd make the effort to see me more (hasn't happened). Realizing that the situation would not get better because I have a habit of feeling neglected, I have attempted to end it. And have failed each time since he believes that I can overcome these insecure emotions so long as I tried. That I am ridiculous for wanting a monogamous relationship because humans are not monogamous creatures by nature. Basically, he refuses to let the relationship end.

And I don't know what to do anymore. I love him dearly, and he says he loves me too. But it's been much more difficult than I thought it would be. Its been rather painful. And lately all we do is fight, mostly because of comments I've made about my belief that relationships don't last, and how I could not learn to pacify my jealousy and insecurity...

Please help.:confused:
 
While jealousy and insecurity may indeed be an issue, I would say that regardless of anything else, the lack of quality time is the one that predominates. You two want very different things. He does not want a defined relationship and is satisfied with seeing you infrequently, whereas you want a guy who is there for you. Bottom line, he is not that guy.

As for the insecurity / jealousy issue, it might be something you could overcome if your relationship with him was not affected by his other pursuits - but it is in terms of time, if nothing else.

That said, in polyamory, you don't have to break up with him to date someone else. Find someone who can be there for you, someone who can meet the needs he is not meeting.
 
You clearly are not happy in the relationship, you've tried to end it but you've allowed him to change your mind. If you don't want to continue on this path, you'll just have to be more firm with him.

It's one thing to be poly. It's another thing to be a pick up artist. It's another thing entirely to use that as an excuse to neglect the feelings and needs of people you're dating.

It takes two people to be in a relationship. It takes one person to end it. He does not have the power to "refuse" to end it, unless you give it to him.

Send him an email, along the lines of "Yeah, I could probably get over these feelings. But really, you're just not worth the trouble. You don't show consideration of my needs, you don't empathize with my feelings, and I don't have time to waste on someone like that. Besides, why should I be the one to change? There's nothing wrong with me, we're just not compatible. Have fun with your pick-ups, but I'm out." Then the rest is on you: don't answer his phone calls, don't reply to his messages, and for the love of Spaghetti, don't contact him yourself.

I happen to agree that humans are not monogamous "by nature," i.e. that we're not genetically programmed to be monogamous. That being said, socialization is an incredibly powerful process, and it has absolutely made many people unwilling to engage in non-monogamous relationships. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being one of those people, with only seeking out partners who feel the same way you do, and with not doing the hard work required to get over the jealousy and insecurity that's triggered by sharing partners.

You deserve to be happy. You deserve to date people who approach relationships the same way you do. You don't have a responsibility to change your attitude, personality, and preferred relationship style just so he can play his games without consideration of the effect on people around him. That's crap.
 
I'm new to this site and to polyamory as well. I am a 24 year old female who up until very recently, had been single for 6 years. About eight months ago I met an amazing guy and its been one hell of a roller coaster ride since finding out months after meeting him that he did not believe in labels- refusing to have the boyfriend/ girlfriend title and was only willing to partake in open relationships. Initially I hesitated. After a two year relationship with a guy who constantly cheated, and the jealous/paranoid/ snooping traits I picked up along the way, I feared that I would again become engulfed in those horrible emotions. I didn't want to share. But because of the strong connection I felt for him, I decided to just accept it, enjoy my time with him, and the minute I felt I couldn't handle it anymore, end it. Looking back, it was a very naive, selfish idea.

I'm having a difficult time dealing with the idea of his being with multiple people, especially since he is a practicing Pick Up Artist (an individual who trains in the skills of finding, attracting, and seducing women) his success rides on the high amount of successful attempts he has picking up girls. His goal being to have his own dating agency. And I want to whole heartedly support him and his goals but the idea of his actively engaging with, flirting, kissing, and sleeping with numerous girls on a frequent basis, makes me engulfed with feelings of insecurity, jealousy, and anger. And it doesn't help that our "dates" are extremely sporadic- sometimes every two weeks, even though we live walking distance from each other. In my mind, once the weather becomes better here in New York, he will have less time for me, because he'll be out picking up girls...

I've realized my unsatisfaction. And in multiple occasions expressed these thoughts to him, to which he promised he'd make the effort to see me more (hasn't happened). Realizing that the situation would not get better because I have a habit of feeling neglected, I have attempted to end it. And have failed each time since he believes that I can overcome these insecure emotions so long as I tried. That I am ridiculous for wanting a monogamous relationship because humans are not monogamous creatures by nature. Basically, he refuses to let the relationship end.

And I don't know what to do anymore. I love him dearly, and he says he loves me too. But it's been much more difficult than I thought it would be. Its been rather painful. And lately all we do is fight, mostly because of comments I've made about my belief that relationships don't last, and how I could not learn to pacify my jealousy and insecurity...

Please help.:confused:

I know you don't mean to reinforce a stereotype, but being poly is more than just "being with lots of people." Do you understand?
 
I've realized my unsatisfaction. And in multiple occasions expressed these thoughts to him, to which he promised he'd make the effort to see me more (hasn't happened). Realizing that the situation would not get better because I have a habit of feeling neglected, I have attempted to end it. And have failed each time since he believes that I can overcome these insecure emotions so long as I tried. That I am ridiculous for wanting a monogamous relationship because humans are not monogamous creatures by nature. Basically, he refuses to let the relationship end.
I really don't understand how someone can prevent you from breaking up with them. No one who ever broke up with me stuck around just because I didn't want it to end. You are unhappy, dissatisfied, and clearly don't want to be in this situation, so grow a backbone and stand up for yourself. Tell him never to contact you again, and block his number. Simple and straightforward.

To me, his refusal to end it sounds more like you're a prize that he gets to keep, and less that he actually loves you. If someone loves you, truly, they want you to be happy even if it means without them.

Plus, "Pick Up Artists" are generally selfish, inconsiderate buffoons who have absolutely zero respect for women, so why would you want to be with a guy like that? DTMFA!!!!
 
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Life is too short to be miserable.
 
While jealousy and insecurity may indeed be an issue, I would say that regardless of anything else, the lack of quality time is the one that predominates. You two want very different things. He does not want a defined relationship and is satisfied with seeing you infrequently, whereas you want a guy who is there for you. Bottom line, he is not that guy.

As for the insecurity / jealousy issue, it might be something you could overcome if your relationship with him was not affected by his other pursuits - but it is in terms of time, if nothing else.

That said, in polyamory, you don't have to break up with him to date someone else. Find someone who can be there for you, someone who can meet the needs he is not meeting.

Yes! I do believe that if we were to have more quality time with each other, then those negative emotions that arise would occur less frequently and would be easier to pacify. I've brought it up, we'll make plans and something comes up- canceling four times in the past two weeks. Its tough because he's currently unemployed so his reasoning behind not seeing me as frequently is because he does not want things to feel too routine, and doesn't have his apartment anymore.
 
Send him an email, along the lines of "Yeah, I could probably get over these feelings. But really, you're just not worth the trouble. You don't show consideration of my needs, you don't empathize with my feelings, and I don't have time to waste on someone like that. Besides, why should I be the one to change? There's nothing wrong with me, we're just not compatible. Have fun with your pick-ups, but I'm out." Then the rest is on you: don't answer his phone calls, don't reply to his messages, and for the love of Spaghetti, don't contact him yourself.

Often there is no understanding coming from him. He's very set in his thinking, so whenever I express discontent or express my issues with insecurity he'll respond with "how unattractive" I am behaving. I've been trying to cope, reading books on buddhism has helped. But it isn't an overnight deal.

It seems like every other day I've contemplated or initiated the breakup. But have a habit to listening to what he has to say, and give him another opportunity.
 
I really don't understand how someone can prevent you from breaking up with them. No one who ever broke up with me stuck around just because I didn't want it to end. You are unhappy, dissatisfied, and clearly don't want to be in this situation, so grow a backbone and stand up for yourself. Tell him never to contact you again, and block his number. Simple and straightforward.

To me, his refusal to end it sounds more like you're a prize that he gets to keep, and less that he actually loves you. If someone loves you, truly, they want you to be happy even if it means without them.

Plus, "Pick Up Artists" are generally selfish, inconsiderate buffoons who have absolutely zero respect for women, so why would you want to be with a guy like that? DTMFA!!!!
I really don't understand how someone can prevent you from breaking up with them. No one who ever broke up with me stuck around just because I didn't want it to end. You are unhappy, dissatisfied, and clearly don't want to be in this situation, so grow a backbone and stand up for yourself. Tell him never to contact you again, and block his number. Simple and straightforward.

To me, his refusal to end it sounds more like you're a prize that he gets to keep, and less that he actually loves you. If someone loves you, truly, they want you to be happy even if it means without them.

Plus, "Pick Up Artists" are generally selfish, inconsiderate buffoons who have absolutely zero respect for women, so why would you want to be with a guy like that? DTMFA!!!!


Funny that you've used the word "prize" as he has a habit of saying that to me. Me being the prize. I have a habit of listening what he has to say, give him the opportunity to prove himself, and fall back into the same problem. Often I wonder if I am getting the genuine version of him, or the"Pick Up Artist" who easily knows hows to sway a situation to their liking...
 
Funny that you've used the word "prize" as he has a habit of saying that to me. Me being the prize. I have a habit of listening what he has to say, give him the opportunity to prove himself, and fall back into the same problem. Often I wonder if I am getting the genuine version of him, or the"Pick Up Artist" who easily knows hows to sway a situation to their liking...

You are completely head over heals enamored with this guy.
He has demonstrated clear lack of concern for you as a human being.
You are going to stay with him for the foreseeable future.

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and classify your "attempts to break up" with him as a game. You say you are breaking up with him, he shows you a bit of momentary affection and whispers some bullshit to you, you fall for his bullshit and decide to stay with him a bit longer. If you feel like you need to get something more from him you repeat the process.

I'm with nycindie, grow a pair and either accept him for who he is or break up with him. Anything in between is just you playing the same game with him that he is playing with you.
 
I'm going to take a shot in the dark and classify your "attempts to break up" with him as a game. You say you are breaking up with him, he shows you a bit of momentary affection and whispers some bullshit to you, you fall for his bullshit and decide to stay with him a bit longer. If you feel like you need to get something more from him you repeat the process.

Makes me cringe to admit to that. You've the nail right on the head... I'm craving attention from him, affection but it only seems to be to my liking when we're hovering over the edge. Then its back to these weird inconsistent vibes... I'm lacking an understanding as to how exactly a relationship is suppose to be, how I'm suppose to be, particularly if I'm not getting what I desire.
 
Erm... It doesn't sound much like a healthy relationship. Poly issues aside. I know it can be hard to thoroughly flush out an issue online because of the complex emotions and situations leading to it, but from what I hear he sounds selfish and like his needs are the forefront of what matters to him. A relationship is about respect and care for the feelings of your partner ( along with a plethora of other things) and he is not seeming to respect your needs
_ to see him
_ to have set plans
- to feel validated
or care about your feelings of insecurity, jealousy and feelings unbalanced.Now that does not mean drop him and move on necessarily but I do think that some effort from his side needs to come to the table. And it sounds like you guys need to sit down and have some open communications about what being undefined really means. LOL I get the irony in that statement.

I am really new at this too and struggle with worry my partner will leave me, worry he will enjoy sex with others more, grapple with self esteem issues, jealousy and insecurity, but overall it has been a positive experience for me because my partner really cares about me. When ever either of us feels uneasy or jealous we talk about it in depth and try to figure out what mix of feelings its is and why and how we can weather our own emotions and how the other can support the process.
I think you need some of that support. If he does actually love you and its not some elaborate game to him he should be willing to help you find balance and help support your needs and make you feel validated and special.
 
Hi kaduhwin,
There are ways to work on jealousy and insecurity. For example:

Let us discuss the greeneye monster shall we?
How to slay the greeneyed beastie.

Jealousy, Envy, Insecurity, Etc.
How do you achieve compersion?

The Theory of Jealousy Management
The Practice of Jealousy Management

Jealousy and the Poly Family
Kathy Labriola: Unmasking the Green-Eyed Monster
Brené Brown: the Power of Vulnerability

Those links are probably worth a look regardless of what you do. For the sake of self-improvement, get a handle on the things that you feel, and an understanding of why you feel them.

At the same time, ask yourself whether this particular guy is the kind of guy you'd want to be with. Does he really care about how you feel, or is he just telling you what he knows you want to hear? You did say he was a pick-up artist. Honesty is really really important if one wants responsible non-monogamy to work.
 
While jealousy and insecurity may indeed be an issue, I would say that regardless of anything else, the lack of quality time is the one that predominates. You two want very different things. He does not want a defined relationship and is satisfied with seeing you infrequently, whereas you want a guy who is there for you. Bottom line, he is not that guy.

As for the insecurity / jealousy issue, it might be something you could overcome if your relationship with him was not affected by his other pursuits - but it is in terms of time, if nothing else.

That said, in polyamory, you don't have to break up with him to date someone else. Find someone who can be there for you, someone who can meet the needs he is not meeting.

This.

If you enjoy the time you spend with him, then by all means, stay with him. But if the idea of polyamory is comfortable for you, then there's nothing stopping you from seeking a relationship with a second guy as well.

Still, he sounds like he's just interested in sex. If you found someone else, then they'd most likely be able to satisfy that need too. In short, this is not a guy you should really become emotionally attached to. If you're happy with the physical nature of the relationship, then it's fine, but if you want him to give you the emotional support you need, you're going to both be after different things, and it will be unlikely to work. Relationships work best when both parties know what the other wants and can give it to them.
 
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Makes me cringe to admit to that. You've the nail right on the head... I'm craving attention from him, affection but it only seems to be to my liking when we're hovering over the edge. Then its back to these weird inconsistent vibes... I'm lacking an understanding as to how exactly a relationship is suppose to be, how I'm suppose to be, particularly if I'm not getting what I desire.

Oh, honey, you live in NYC (as do I) - there's someone else right around the corner. Don't waste your time and energy trying to get blood from a stone. There are a million other guys who would love to give you time, attention, and affection without you begging and playing dishonest games for it. You're worth more than that.

You say you love him and he loves you, but I don't think so. I think what you're calling love is really dependency and unrealistic attachment to anyone who's willing to show you some attention.

You want to develop some self-esteem - do esteemable things. Like taking a stand.
 
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Makes me cringe to admit to that. You've the nail right on the head... I'm craving attention from him, affection but it only seems to be to my liking when we're hovering over the edge. Then its back to these weird inconsistent vibes... I'm lacking an understanding as to how exactly a relationship is suppose to be, how I'm suppose to be, particularly if I'm not getting what I desire.

You took that criticism right on the chin, I'm impressed.

Most of us have a lot of room for emotional growth and I don't imagine that will be changing any time soon. My only real suggestion is to focus your energy on learning what your needs really are, where your insecurities stem from, and growing into a person who is able to rationally address these issues without depending on some dude to do it for you. That's quite a thing to learn to do and I don't imagine anyone can do it over night but I suggest pointing the ship in that direction and making that your goal.

Finding a good therapist who doesn't coddle you and who is actually competent at helping people learn healthy coping mechanisms might be a good way to start the process.
 
There's nothing inherently wrong with him saying "I'm not going to change how I behave." The problem is when he expects you to change the way you react to his behaviour, instead of accepting that you're just incompatible.

He's a conquistador. What matters to him, and the only thing that matters to him, is having as many women hanging off him as possible. Letting you go would indicate a failure on his part to keep you as his possession.

Well fuck that shit. You're nobody's possession. You deserve happiness, and you shouldn't have to undergo a religious transformation just to be able to date someone.

You keep telling us how much you love him, but all the specifics you provide are negative. What the hell makes this guy such a prize that you're willing to sacrifice your happiness and peace of mind just to be another checkmark on his list of conquests?
 
Speaking as one who in the past has occasionally worn the PUA hat;
(Not proud of if, but not ashamed of it either)

- it IS a numbers game, a PUA is keeping "score"
However in doing so, it's impossible to develop quality interpersonal relationships and connections as attempting to do so would be detrimental to the amount of personal energy expended towards increasing ones "score".

- Practicing PUAs do not "do" committed relationships
Actually they do "non-relationships", which is to say there is very little intrest in you as a person, but plenty of intrest in you as a soscial toy that can be picked up and put away at their leisure. They don't have relationships with people, they have "interactions" with "potentials", and you are always replaceable.

Don't put up with that kind of dehumanization. Ever.

-Pick up artistry is a soscial "power game"
This is the truth. PUAs apply the fundimentals of flash entertainment and high pressure targeted salesmanship. It's no different from selling volcano insurance to strangers (except that volcano insurance seldom causes emotional damages later.)
There is no "break-ups", it's more like they "fire" you. And you're not "allowed" to fire them, because you are not the boss.

Seriously it's a shifty and shitty method of getting someone attention, lef me correct that; -getting attention from someone- and practiced by shifty and shitty people.

Side note:
Most pick up artists will get really mad if you ask them if they would really just like a hug and a safe place to cry. Something about low self esteem.

But seriously; Ditch the clown and find people who will treat you like people, I promise you'll be much happier.
 
Here's a few questions ok?

Pretend you have a child (maybe you do I don't know-but it didn't sound like it)

IS HE the kind of PERSON you would want them to date?
---------------------------------------------
remove "love" from the topic.
Make a list of CONCRETE ACTIONS.
What are the CONCRETE ACTIONS that he does that make you want to stay in the relationship?

(I like to consider it this way-ACTIONS speak louder than words and "I Love you" means NOTHING because it's words. I have a list of specific actions and if they aren't happening-then LOVING isn't happening)
___________________________________

Are YOU respecting YOUR needs and YOUR boundaries for YOURSELF?

(because if YOU don't respect your needs and your boundaries, how can anyone else be expected to?)
______________________________________
It sounds to me like you "want the good feelings" but you haven't defined the specific behaviors you want in a relationship. You could accidentally happen upon a situation where you got them without defining them-but it's NOT LIKELY.
If you REALLY want a healthy, happy and whole relationship that is fulfilling TO YOU and gives YOU the "good feelings" that you want;
Then you need to define the concrete actions that you require in a relationship.
THEN you need to hold yourself accountable to ONLY HAVING A RELATIONSHIP with someone who is agreeable AND willing to *ACTUALLY* DO those things. Not SAY they are willing-but SHOW they are.
__________________________________
Final thought:
Loving someone does NOT mean you are compatible as romantic partners, business partners, roommates, lovers or anything else.
It just means that you want what is best for them.
In order to define if someone is compatible to you as any kind of partner, friend, roommate etc; you have to line out what your expectations in THAT relationship designation is, what their expectations are and then see if they match. If they don't-call it good and move on until you find someone who is.
ANything else-is abuse to yourself and them.
 
The whole "pick up artist" thing... That means he is deceptive and manipulative in order to get sex without getting emotionally attached. He is manipulating you.

I would be willing to bet that all your feelings of jealousy and insecurity-- that's all part of the play he's working on you.

You aren't in a relationship. You are in a scam. Walk away. And maybe change your credit card numbers while you're at it, if he's ever had access to your wallet.
 
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