Open vs Poly

[GalaGirl]

I mean all this kindly, ok?

From your original post --

He talks a lot of pushing boundaries and wanting to see what is possible.

And that's all I keep reading. You try to set boundaries. He pushes them.

Do you know there are some personalities that view personal boundaries as a challenge to bust up?

In the end? You set your personal boundaries for YOU to obey. Not other people. When someone keeps trespassing on your personal boundaries and they keep dinging you? Whether with anger or with weak apologies... but the bottom line is that they keep ON dinging you? It doesn't actually change?

The solution is to walk away. Don't be so close to them. When you are standing further way even if they flap around you are out of range. You have made yourself undingable.

After we've had all this drama and upset and disruption, and after I'd made it really clear that I was NOT OK with this. He immediately offered to not go when I said I wasn't ok with it.

Then learn to say "Ok. Don't go." And then let him deal with that response. Either go or not go, but quit making YOU the boss of his behaviors. That is off putting.

Really he could have apologized and canceled his plans himself rather than making you the boss of all.

To me? It's a way of avoiding taking personal responsibility while looking "generous." I dislike that game.

....so I then BACKTRACKED and said he could spend THE DAY with her if he wanted. Which, honestly, I'm not Ok with. Now I'm really angry with myself, and angry with him because I feel like he's starting to force the issue on me before I am ready.

Learn not to even offer things you are not ok with.

He IS forcing the issue before you are ready.

You try to set boundaries. He pushes you to see what is possible / he can get away with.

If he PUSHES your boundaries? He's not respecting them.

When he doesn't respect them and dings you?

You have no consequences like "When people don't respect my boundaries, i stop hanging out with them." So YOU are respecting your boundaries.

Instead there is more talking and explaining. Which sounds exhausting.

You do not have to JADE. Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain your boundaries.

If this is going to be like a circle conversation that goes nowhere? Where you talk a lot about boundaries but basically teach that it is ignorable and he can do whatever because all you will do is fuss some but then bend and still stick around?

Why would he change his way of going and treat you better? He can keep on doing whatever.

You say you are NOT ok with something? Be OK walking away because you are NOT ok with this.

If poly dating him is not working out? Maybe it works better as only being friends. Or just don't interact at all.

At best, you guys want different ways of going right now.

At worst? He's adding to the "shit in your brain" with some mind games.

I don't know which one it is since I'm not there... YOU are.

But it doesn't sound great for you. And it's distracting you from dealing with your trauma stuff that you really wanted to get to. Or even adding more to the pile.

I thought you wanted less stress right now? Go for what you want.

I suggested that perhaps he have a relationship with LESS emotional entanglement: that perhaps he wants to be a "Free agent" poly person. He said that isn't what he wanted.

He said he wants to push boundaries and see where things go. He sounds like is getting that here.

I could be wrong... but here's my impression. Blue is mine.

On reflection: I'm up for giving a full-on poly relationship an honest shot but I need...

a- to not be in a place of turbulence (which I am right now, for reasons other than my relationship) So you are not actually ABLE to poly right now due to turbulence.

b- to really trust and have a solid foundation with my partner. (all these arguments about how to do to non-monogamy have left me feeling unsettled.) So you struggle to trust him when he keeps dinging you.

c- I REALLY need to feel that my partner has heard me out on my inner pains relating to my family of origin. At the moment I feel I've been 2/3rds or 3/4 heard out. I think if he agreed to stop with the sweet-shop raiding attitude and calmed the fuck down to give me chance to to A and us chance to build B then that would go a long way to making me feel secure, wanted and like my needs in this relationship are important. He doesn't want to slow down. He wants to go at it like kid in a candy store. This is not the right partner at this time IF you were going to do trauma healing AND polyshipping at the same time. He goes too fast and you don't have the spoons. Not compatible.

Rather than bend yourself into pretzels to stick with this guy?

I would suggest letting it go. Work on your A stuff first before moving on to B with a poly partner.

I wouldn't say he totally disregards me or my feelings but he is doing this a little. I'm wary because I'm aware I over-react to things or don't react when I should. My emotional barometer is a bit of a mess at the moment.

I think you might be under-reacting.

Me? I don't want to have to keep explaining to someone why my boundaries are important and need to be respected. That's kid/parenting stuff to me. By the time people are adults, I prefer they know that already. And I don't want to parent anyone who I'm not actually a parent to.

I don't think what you ask is unreasonable -- To go slower while you are dealing with trauma healing if you are going to be poly dating each other right now. It's being considerate for where you are. If you had a broken leg, it would not be the time to sign up for a marathon as a couple, right?

If he cannot slow down, then don't date him right now. YOU have to be considerate of where you are too.

You may have to accept that you want to poly but this might not be the best time to be doing that if you have trauma stuff to heal. :/

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi BirdsNest,

I think that the thing is, you *want* this to be the right guy for you, you really do, and you are trying, you are really really trying, but it is hard, it is really really hard. He keeps pushing you to move your boundaries, and makes you feel guilty when you don't. On the other hand, this is the *only* bad thing that he does. He is perfect for you in every way, *other than this one little thing.* Only it isn't a little thing, is it? He is willing to make you suffer, to be unable to deal with your trauma, just so he can keep up this kid-in-a-candy-store attitude.

I think your best bet is to tell him what you need. That you are willing to do (not just open but) poly, but first you need, a) to not be in a place of turbulence, b) to really trust and have a solid foundation with your partner, and c) to feel that your partner has heard you out on your inner pains relating to your family of origin.

Tell him all of these things, and then, see if he agrees to help you do them. Hopefully he does, but, if he doesn't, at least you know where you stand.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[ElMango]

I agree with Gala and Kevin.

They said it much better than I could, so I want to say I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

Tell him that you are willing to do poly, but what you need before that can happen in a healthy and happy way you need: a) to not be in a place of turbulence, b) to really trust and have a solid foundation with your partner, and c) to feel that your partner has heard you out on your inner pains relating to your family of origin.

If he isn't willing to do that, you need to decide what your course of action would be. For me, I'd like ot believe I'd leave. Because leaving isn't always forever; but it can be if it needs to be.

 

[FallenAngelina]

....so I then BACKTRACKED and said he could spend THE DAY with her if he wanted. Which, honestly, I'm not Ok with. Now I'm really angry with myself, and angry with him because I feel like he's starting to force the issue on me before I am ready.......I'm wary because I'm aware I over-react to things or don't react when I should. My emotional barometer is a bit of a mess at the moment.

Nobody can force issues on us that we do not force on ourselves. He is not the "wrong guy," it's that you are not the right woman - for you. You are not being true to your own values. Resentment and the feeling of "wrong person that I'm so attracted to" can only creep in when we ourselves are not standing by what is important to us (AKA poor boundaries.) Stop blaming him and stop trying to wrangle with him and her. This is about you and your not standing in allegiance to what your own feelings are telling you. It's so easy to blame others (and goodness knows, we can find enough "support" from others who will join us in the blaming) for being wrong or for acting insensitively, but blame really doesn't serve us in the long run. It only perpetuates the false premise that others can pressure us and it only fosters powerlessness in us. The way forward to a better place is to stop wrangling with what he wants (he is perfectly fine and knows what he wants,) stop asking him to be there for you about your issues when you are not there for you. Nobody can make up the lack that you feel in yourself. Stop trying to forge this situation (him) into something more pleasing and turn that energy inward. Forge yourself into a woman who knows with crystal clarity what is important to her and stands by her values. When you do this, nobody on earth can come into your life with a wonky situation.

 

[MeeraReed]

I think you are right that this guy wants to do "free agent poly." I was sort of sympathizing with him because that's the kind of poly that works for me...until you asked him directly if he wanted to do free agent poly, and he said no. That's totally infuriating!

Because he clearly DOES want a freer style of poly...and he won't admit it. He will put that responsibility totally on you to...solve this? Or...? I don't even know what he thinks is going to happen here. He can't identify what he wants or tell you what he wants, so nothing here is going to work.

Question for you: if this guy were out of the picture, would you, yourself, on your own, be seeking any type of poly/open relationship(s) at all? It seems like you're contorting yourself into pretzels to make things work with him.

It's cool if you DO want a hierarchical poly/open relationship...or if you want monogamy...or if you want full-on poly but to go very slowly...or if you just want to work on your own internal stuff and not deal with dating stuff at all...

But you can't do any of those things with this particular guy, because he's going to be doing whatever HE wants to do, while telling you that he wants whatever YOU want. Ugh.

I think without this guy in the picture, you would have clarity about yourself.

 

[BirdsNest]

Well, here is what happened:

Called him yesterday to talk about this, specifically regarding the issue with the latest woman on the scene. He told me that he'd actually agreed to be only friendly with her, that he wanted to be with me and I was his priority. He didn't tell me this a few days ago because I'd seemed emotional and he didn't want to bring it up. (That seemed odd to me at the time but I let it go.)

So then I told him what I told you guys:

That I was up for trying out poly but needed to sort out my shit first.
I was really happy- thought there was a way forward. So relieved.

But then:

He came over this evening, we had a nice evening but as we got to bed it was apparent something was off. So I invited that difficult conversation.

He explained he deleted his dating profiles and called it off with everybody else who he was talking to. He'd also brought all of my things from his place, I asked for one thing. He'd given these to me earlier in the evening but not said it was because he had decided to end the relationship.

In fact he said he had been avoiding the topic because it was difficult for him. Said he didn't see a future for us and that was hard for him. He really cares about me and didn't want to be pushing my boundaries.

I reiterated that I was up for trying poly but needed to deal with my stuff first, pretty much as I wrote down here for you lot. Just need him to slow down. He labelled his own behaviour as being obsessive and mentioned not wanting to be like his dad, who cheated on his mother. I said I didn't understand why he was in such a hurry and I felt like he wanted everything all at once. (What I didn't say is that he appears to be unwilling to do the work required for a poly relationship.)

Regardless: his feelings are what they are. It was late and raining but I told him to leave my house and go home.

Really gutted. I'm sure he is too.

I don't understand why he would call things off with everyone - he deleted one dating profile- and also decide to break up with me all in the space of one evening. Just seems a bit odd to do both things all at once, and to then avoid having that difficult conversation.

Its super frustrating because I suggested that maybe he be single and date around, I suggested that a few times. He kept telling me he wanted deep, meaningful relationships and he really wants to have kids some day. He seems confused and he's got issues of his own to resolve.

Home alone now, its late and I'm awake and very upset. I love this guy and he really loves me too, I'm so tired of relationships ending before they have chance to take root. We shared a warmth, affection and understanding that I've been really craving for a long time.

 

[ElMango]

It was late and raining but I told him to leave my house and go home.

I want to say I'm proud of you for this; for setting up that boundary and giving yourself space to have the emotions you needed when you needed how you needed.

I don't understand why he would call things off with everyone - he deleted one dating profile- and also decide to break up with me all in the space of one evening. Just seems a bit odd to do both things all at once, and to then avoid having that difficult conversation.

It seems odd to me too. It also seems quite drastic, but I suspect he's either making a rash choice out of emotions or, I mean this with kindness, it's something he may have been mulling over for a bit but was really avoiding talking about.

He seems confused and he's got issues of his own to resolve.

I agree with this. He sounds confused and probably upset and emotional; he felt the need to choose this path and that's his choice. It's unfortunate it was a drastic measure.

Home alone now, its late and I'm awake and very upset. I love this guy and he really loves me too, I'm so tired of relationships ending before they have chance to take root. We shared a warmth, affection and understanding that I've been really craving for a long time.

I'm sending you good energy and lots of love. I know this is going to require some time and healing. Sometimes we need to heal and process on our own; find our own paths. Sometimes, once we sort this stuff out, our paths with loved ones cross again. I know that feels probably like a hollow comfort.

 

[GalaGirl]

I reiterated that I was up for trying poly but needed to deal with my stuff first, pretty much as I wrote down here for you lot. Just need him to slow down. He labelled his own behaviour as being obsessive and mentioned not wanting to be like his dad, who cheated on his mother. I said I didn't understand why he was in such a hurry and I felt like he wanted everything all at once. (What I didn't say is that he appears to be unwilling to do the work required for a poly relationship.)

I think you basically call it. He's not ready to do the work at this time.

Regardless: his feelings are what they are. It was late and raining but I told him to leave my house and go home.

Really gutted. I'm sure he is too.

I'm very sorry about the break up. That's never fun. It just doesn't sound like you two were really on the same page though.

He sounds like he was still on the rebound and had baggage to sort but wasn't actually sorting it. Maybe going at it all gung-ho to avoid having to sort or something. Only he knows.

Its super frustrating because I suggested that maybe he be single and date around, I suggested that a few times. He kept telling me he wanted deep, meaningful relationships and he really wants to have kids some day. He seems confused and he's got issues of his own to resolve.

I can imagine it's been super frustrating for you. Like it would be one thing if he stopped with the mixed messages and just flat out said he wanted to be a free agent. But the back and forth up and down... no spoons for that if you yourself have things to sort of your own.

I think you called it from the start:

Meanwhile he is throwing himself full-force into the deep end with it all, a little obsessively if I am honest, not really making time to care for himself and burning himself out a bit.

Sounds like he DID burn himself out.

I love this guy and he really loves me too, I'm so tired of relationships ending before they have chance to take root. We shared a warmth, affection and understanding that I've been really craving for a long time.

It's ok to love him. I think sharing warmth, affection, and understanding for however long it went is valuable. Maybe this is simply how long it could go for now in the current circumstances on both sides. Limit of the Universe.

There's nothing wrong with short term relationships. Those are still meaningful.

But again... I'm sorry. Break ups aren't fun even if necessary. I can imagine sleep might be hard tonight. I hope over time you find peace and healing.

Galagirl

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

"and do it properly. Start with kink nights, a bit of swinging, threesomes. (In which we both invite someone to our bed and are also the 3rd with a couple.)"

Who said this was the proper way to do things?

 

[BirdsNest]

It seems odd to me too. It also seems quite drastic, but I suspect he's either making a rash choice out of emotions or, I mean this with kindness, it's something he may have been mulling over for a bit but was really avoiding talking about.

Yes well we had discussed breaking up- but the day before he told me he wanted to be with me and wanted to make it work, told me how he put a stop on a developing relationship that stressed me out. He only met her once and said his relationship with me was far more important. And it seems that he did a 180 almost overnight... I don't get it. He told me he'd called off the shots with everyone else, he updated his dating profiles to say he "Wasn't looking for romantic connections" he DELETED the one we met on.

...then came to my house with my stuff and the intention to break up with me because he 'couldn't see a future'. I don't get it.

...and to do all that but then to be very reluctant to discuss the issue. I had to really draw it out of him.

It is rash and indecisive.

I think you basically call it. He's not ready to do the work at this time.....
He sounds like he was still on the rebound and had baggage to sort but wasn't actually sorting it. Maybe going at it all gung-ho to avoid having to sort or something. Only he knows.

I suspect going gung-ho to avoid dealing with baggage. 6-year relationship ended, apparently *only* because he wanted to try out poly, otherwise he wanted to marry her and have kids. I suspect there was problems for other reasons that he hasn't really examined.

I can imagine it's been super frustrating for you. Like it would be one thing if he stopped with the mixed messages and just flat out said he wanted to be a free agent. But the back and forth up and down... no spoons for that if you yourself have things to sort of your own.

Quite.
But he's got unaddressed emotional baggage, and he probably does want the long term things and he loves me too, so its a mess in his head. That seems to be wrestling with his desire to go on the rebound, basically. A more secure poly parter would probably cope ok with that. (But hey! He fell in love with someone whose got repressed childhood trauma and issues and needs caring for... go figure....)

He actually said that he regretted this was how he felt about the situation because he didn't think it was going to resolve the issues either.
So I don't know: an admission he thinks he is barking up the wrong tree?
Previously he acknowledged that he was burning himself out and his current lifestyle was unsustainable.

"and do it properly. Start with kink nights, a bit of swinging, threesomes. (In which we both invite someone to our bed and are also the 3rd with a couple.)"

Who said this was the proper way to do things?

SEASONED poly you've made your point: You like to do things differently and have a different perspective from me. I don't know why you keep coming in with comments like these- they are not constructive to my cause and are not welcome. Frankly they come off like you are seeking validation for you.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Yes well we had discussed breaking up- but the day before he told me he wanted to be with me and wanted to make it work, told me how he put a stop on a developing relationship that stressed me out. He only met her once and said his relationship with me was far more important. And it seems that he did a 180 almost overnight... I don't get it. He told me he'd called off the shots with everyone else, he updated his dating profiles to say he "Wasn't looking for romantic connections" he DELETED the one we met on.

...then came to my house with my stuff and the intention to break up with me because he 'couldn't see a future'. I don't get it.

...and to do all that but then to be very reluctant to discuss the issue. I had to really draw it out of him.

It is rash and indecisive.




I suspect going gung-ho to avoid dealing with baggage. 6-year relationship ended, apparently *only* because he wanted to try out poly, otherwise he wanted to marry her and have kids. I suspect there was problems for other reasons that he hasn't really examined.



Quite.
But he's got unaddressed emotional baggage, and he probably does want the long term things and he loves me too, so its a mess in his head. That seems to be wrestling with his desire to go on the rebound, basically. A more secure poly parter would probably cope ok with that. (But hey! He fell in love with someone whose got repressed childhood trauma and issues and needs caring for... go figure....)

He actually said that he regretted this was how he felt about the situation because he didn't think it was going to resolve the issues either.
So I don't know: an admission he thinks he is barking up the wrong tree?
Previously he acknowledged that he was burning himself out and his current lifestyle was unsustainable.



SEASONED poly you've made your point: You like to do things differently and have a different perspective from me. I don't know why you keep coming in with comments like these- they are not constructive to my cause and are not welcome. Frankly they come off like you are seeking validation for you.

No I think you need to stop and consider your language. Whilst what you're suggesting might be a way of doing it, it isn't the "proper" or "right" way. Going around telling poly people who won't appease your needs that they're not doing it properly is not okay. Finding people compatible with your preferred approach is fine.

I'm quite upset that no other poly person responding has addressed that your way is not even the most common way, let alone the right way. Just because someone commits to a relationship with you, it doesn't mean they've agreed to it at the expense of other things they might want. They aren't obliged to do things your way so eventually you'll maybe do things their way.

If you can't even take my suggestion that your ways are not "proper" or "right" but instead just the way you need things done, how will you listen to a partner telling you that it isn't working for them? You'll be telling them that this is the right and proper way to do it and unless they do it that way, they're improper and wrong partners/people.

 

[ElMango]

I'm quite upset that no other poly person responding has addressed that your way is not even the most common way, let alone the right way. Just because someone commits to a relationship with you, it doesn't mean they've agreed to it at the expense of other things they might want. They aren't obliged to do things your way so eventually you'll maybe do things their way.

Maybe because we're capable of saying "This is what they consider proper [FOR THEM] and would work [FOR THEM]" since we all seem capable of that basic level of understanding

idk dude, it doesn't actually seem that hard to read into what they're saying. Especially when you apply some empathy and critical thinking.


Also commenting on what everyone ELSE is saying the way you did is basiically saying you think we're not correct...which is fairly hypocritical.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Maybe because we're capable of saying "This is what they consider proper [FOR THEM] and would work [FOR THEM]" since we all seem capable of that basic level of understanding

idk dude, it doesn't actually seem that hard to read into what they're saying. Especially when you apply some empathy and critical thinking.


Also commenting on what everyone ELSE is saying the way you did is basiically saying you think we're not correct...which is fairly hypocritical.

I think the word "proper" signifies "right". It would be like a monogamous person saying to a poly person "oh no, I couldn't be with you, I have proper relationships". It's an unnecessary judgement call about an incompatibility.

 

[FallenAngelina]

...Call off ALL BETS with other people...and start from the beginning, and do it properly. Start with kink nights, a bit of swinging, threesomes. (In which we both invite someone to our bed and are also the 3rd with a couple.)

I read this more as a turn of phrase rather than a judgement of what is actually proper. "Proper" here seems to mean whatever would be a good, slow start for BirdsNest. I don't get the impression that she thinks that all poly relationships should start with kink nights and threesomes, only that she'd prefer that hers ideally would. If I am not mistaken, "proper" is one of those Britishisms that can be used with variety of intents. I dunno. I didn't get the impression that she thinks that we all literally should start out with collars, cancel wax and group sex.

SeasonedPoly does bring up a good point in general tho. Just FYI, BirdsNest, few poly people engage in group sex at all. Contrary to popular belief, threesomes are much more the exception than the typical. And many poly people have never been into swinging or kink at all.

 

[BirdsNest]

In my opinion we should ignore SEASONEDPoly, who is essentially a troll. I've read their other posts and they seem to frequently antagonise other members on here.

Like many others I came here for understanding, support and a way to navigate through choppy waters.

SEASONEDPoly is a distraction.

 

[BirdsNest]

Another thing I want to add here is this:

I made a point of talking to my ex about the people I fancied, the people I was talking to and kept him informed of what was going on with these people. I even introduced him to my close friend whom I've been in love with...basically since I met them ten years ago... we've got this platonic friendship with romantic overtures. They met each other and I said from the start he would have to 'share' me with this friend. I told him everything about my feelings and our history!

So I made a point of talking to my lover about my love life as I would if I were gossiping with a friend.

And yet, Mr Super-keen-for-poly never talked to me likewise, about the girls he was interested in and talking to. It was just "I am going on a date" or "I am going to meet a friend". Or a massive walloping- "I want to spend a week abroad with another woman." After a while I told him he needed to clarify if he was meeting a date or a friend.
*shakes head sadly* To be honest NOT hearing about those things made me more anxious.

He missed a chance to develop the relationship here.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Another thing I want to add here is this:

I made a point of talking to my ex about the people I fancied, the people I was talking to and kept him informed of what was going on with these people. I even introduced him to my close friend whom I've been in love with...basically since I met them ten years ago... we've got this platonic friendship with romantic overtures. They met each other and I said from the start he would have to 'share' me with this friend. I told him everything about my feelings and our history!

So I made a point of talking to my lover about my love life as I would if I were gossiping with a friend.

And yet, Mr Super-keen-for-poly never talked to me likewise, about the girls he was interested in and talking to. It was just "I am going on a date" or "I am going to meet a friend". Or a massive walloping- "I want to spend a week abroad with another woman." After a while I told him he needed to clarify if he was meeting a date or a friend.
*shakes head sadly* To be honest NOT hearing about those things made me more anxious.

He missed a chance to develop the relationship here.

Again, that's a perfectly valid way to practice polyamory. Some people even have a Don't Ask Don't Tell where minimal information is shared. That could be the case between a nesting couple.

So instead of seeing these things as markers of how bad you think he is at being poly, acknowledge them as points of compatibility. If you know you prefer a relationship where you gossip about your other relationships like friends often do, look for people who are similar and most importantly, don't mind you sharing details about them.

 

[vinsanity0]

In my opinion we should ignore SEASONEDPoly, who is essentially a troll. I've read their other posts and they seem to frequently antagonise other members on here.

Like many others I came here for understanding, support and a way to navigate through choppy waters.

SEASONEDPoly is a distraction.

Is that how you usually deal with people who tell you things you don't want to hear?

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Is that how you usually deal with people who tell you things you don't want to hear?

People usually do find it unsettling to discover that their assumptions and expectations of how relationships should be are only one way and not the true way.

I think that's the most helpful thing someone "new to poly" could learn. There are barely any "shoulds". Or at least, not nearly as many as you think there are.

 

[ElMango]

People usually do find it unsettling to discover that their assumptions and expectations of how relationships should be are only one way and not the true way.

I think that's the most helpful thing someone "new to poly" could learn. There are barely any "shoulds". Or at least, not nearly as many as you think there are.

I find it's less people being told new things, and more how they are told.

People listen to empathy; tough love rarely makes a good impact. You can be a shoulder AND someone giving advice. GalaGirl and Kevin somehow manage what you cannot