Please help a noob

[graviton]

I am a straight man, in a 17 year marriage to a woman I love very dearly. Call her Esther.

I have been smitten with her best friend (Ruth) since I first laid eyes on her 4 years ago. It was unlike anything I have ever felt when I saw her.

Fast forward to today. Only 3 months ago, we began texting each other and very quickly fell in love. It seems we both had the same intense feelings for each other, and revealing some of these just opened a floodgate.

Ruth is married also, for about 14 years, to a man (Nathan) who is very much a pushover and will do anything (it seems) to make her happy. He is one of the nicest guys I know. After Ruth and I declared our love and affection for one another, I asked her if she would approach Nathan, about the possibility of us dating, with no expectation of physical intimacy outside of cuddling and kissing, and some emotional intimacy.

I really need to have her romantically in my life.

Neither of our families had ever ventured into this arena before. Esther has been very supportive and understanding, as she has known about my infatuation with Ruth all these years.

To keep things short, Nate agreed to us dating (to my surprise). He told me to keep things above the belt. However, he also told me he was very sad and nervous about the whole thing, but did not want to hurt Ruth. I told him that if he wasn't okay with us, he just needed to lay down the law and tell her no. He doesn't appear comfortable doing that.

As a result, he is now always glum, weird, nervous and paranoid about us, even though we have been on our best behavior and completely open and honest with him. I have had hours of discussion with him, just the two of us, to help him understand my intentions and to confront any fears or insecurities he may have. Both families have kids and we love our spouses dearly so we are not looking to run away with each other.

However, he is such a damper on us, and is so damned indecisive, it's driving me nuts and making it very hard for us to enjoy what we have. I fully expected him to tell me to fuck off, or just give me the thumbs up, but this wishy-washy stuff is infuriating to me. It's making it very tempting to pretend to break up and just start a good old-fashioned affair to spare him his hurt feelings. I am in so deep with Ruth (with lots of NRE) that I don't think either of us can bear to break it off at this point.

Has anyone dealt with this? What do you do? Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Delphinius]

Time heals

You will probably have to give Nathan time... from your NRE perspective, lots of time.

My guess is he needs to assimilate his new "open" relationship. Even if he knows intellectually that Ruth isn't leaving him, his emotions tell him differently. Plus now, he also has the hurt of thinking he's not good enough/man enough for Ruth, because she also wants to be with you. Again, intellectually, he may know that's false, but feelings say otherwise.

He doesn't sound as if he's as confident as you, Esther or Ruth. This is probably crushing to him! Try to put yourself in his much less confident shoes-- feel it.

With the passage of time, as you and Ruth adhere to the ground rules, he'll find more and more confidence in the love she has for him, and that she's not going to leave him.

You've changed the whole playing field. Patience and understanding must be your motto. I know how hard patience is. It's not easy, but it will be worth it.

 

[graviton]

Thanks for the reply. I knew in my heart that was the answer. Ruth is so special to me. I don't like causing strife in her marriage or being responsible for any pain she or Nathan feel as a result of this. He is very important to mem because he is very important to her. I feel very guilty.

 

[Delphinius]

The fact that you recognize another great person, their strengths and weaknesses, is what makes you so great! That you want to follow your heart in every way possible, but also don't want to hurt anyone else, is what makes you special. I would imagine that is what both Ruth and Esther find attractive about you.

I get that it's tough! After a particularly tough conversation with my husband, when he was at a very low point, I thought I'd never get the time I felt I needed with my bf (whom I considered my other husband or co-primary). I had that thought, that I'd have to go back to my husband not knowing. But a day or two after that really low-point conversation, and asking my husband if he'd ever be okay with this: he set an "end date": a date for when I could start to spend a couple nights a week with my bf, and we could move this open vee relationship to where I felt I needed it to be.

It's so hard when you crave for, long for, think every waking moment of that other new fun person you want to spend every moment with.

We love our spouses, and want them to feel loved, as well. I'm so glad you understand and want him to feel comfortable and loved; you both/all deserve it. And with that attitude I have faith in all of you that you'll make it work and wind up happier and healthier for it.

Health and Happiness,
Delph

 

[graviton]

Thank you, Delphinius. You really made my day.

 

[WhatHappened]

I really need to have her romantically in my life.

No, you don't. You want her very, very badly. I believe we cause ourselves a lot of trouble by telling ourselves we need things that we don't. It frees us, so to speak, from thinking it through, weighing how our behavior will affect everyone involved, and long-term consequences, and perhaps make hard choices that involve sacrificing our own desires.

Ruth id married to a man who is very much a push over and will do anything to make her happy. He is one of the nicest guys I know.
....
He agreed to us dating...and told me to keep things above the belt. However, he also told me he was very sad and nervous about the whole thing, but did not want to hurt Ruth. I told him that if he wasn't okay with us, he just needed to lay down the law and tell her no. He doesn't appear comfortable doing that. As a result, he is now always glum, weird, nervous and paranoid about us, even though we have been on our best behavior and completely open and honest with him. However, he is such a damper on us and is so damned indecisive, it's driving me nuts and making it very hard for us to enjoy what we have. I fully expected him to tell me to fuck off, or just give me the thumbs up, but this wishy-washy stuff is infuriating to me.

Does Nathan know that you regard him as a pushover, indecisive, and wishy-washy? How would he feel about you dating Ruth, and being physical with her, if he knew you had such a negative opinion of him?

I read this as you asked a man for permission to screw his wife. He's agreed to it because he gives his wife anything she wants (and probably fears losing her, or an underhanded affair if he doesn't agree), and now you're criticizing him for 'being a damper.' You not only want to screw his wife, you want him to shut up about his feelings about this so he doesn't infringe on your fun.

What can you do? As others have said, slow down, give him time to adjust to this major change in everything he likely agreed to and was promised at his wedding with this woman, and maybe show a little appreciation that he's willing to consider it at all.

I have a lot of guilt.

Has anyone dealt with this? What do you do?

I don't do things that leave me feeling guilty. Sometimes we feel guilt when we shouldn't, but sometimes guilt is legitimate. Sort it out. You know this man is hurting. Decide if you want to continue on a path that is hurting a man you say is one of the nicest guys you know.

I have dealt with having powerful feelings for another man while I was married. What I did, personally, was consider how that would affect my then-husband, and did not pursue it, because it would have hurt him.

 

[dingedheart]

The guy is such a downer, the idea of a fake break up, and good old-fashioned cheating to spare him... really? Spare him? Gosh, that's real kind of you both. Real forward thinkers. What happens when you get caught? Who gets to explain it was for his own good? Even pushovers have breaking points.

How old are the kids?

 

[GalaGirl]

If you see he is suffering, and that he perhaps is agreeing to do something his heart is not in... why do you choose to continue it?

However, he is such a damper on us, and is so damned indecisive it's driving me nuts and making it very hard for us to enjoy what we have.

It's making it very tempting to pretend to break up and just start a good old-fashioned affair to spare him his hurt feelings.

Nope. That spares him nothing. That gives you the ability to enjoy your affair with her without having to see his suffering.

It is better to stick with what you have -- honest suffering, with him knowing what is going on. That's the price of admission right now. If you guys want to work on it, then it can perhaps be improved in time as he gets used to the "new normal" and comes to see/realize nothing horrible has happened as a result.

But choosing to lie to him that you broke it off, but then really continued it behind his back? Right now, he may be struggling and suffering. But he's not being betrayed. Don't do that. It's not flattering to you to choose that kind of behavior.

Better would be that you suggest Ruth address her trust and security issues with Nathan. Make sure she's not neglecting him. Make sure you aren't neglecting Esther, as you both are in the NRE phase of things.

On your end, you be a trustworthy person, let him get to know you in time, and get over whatever fears/insecurities he may be worried about. Don't stop being trustworthy just because it's not fun for you to watch him struggle.

When you got involved with Ruth, she was not a single woman. She comes as a package with her spouse and kids. More people means more wants, needs, and limits to balance in healthy relationships.

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Jealousy_Updated_10-6-10.pdf

That might help get the conversation going.

 

[graviton]

Thanks for the constructive criticism. You're right, and I knew that before I wrote the post. I know that an affair is worse, and it's not what we are looking to do. It's just something we say sometimes out of frustration. I will look at that link. I indeed have tried to address every concern, fear, and insecurity with him. The fear of sex, the fear of abandonment.

However, he is approaching it with biblical morality, out of conditioning. I told him that if he only tries to understand it from that viewpoint, then we are at an impasse, as there is no room for logic or flexibility when the Bible is involved.

 

[GalaGirl]

He is approaching it from a biblical morality, out of conditioning. I told him that if he only tries to understand it from that viewpoint, then we are at an impasse, as there is no room for logic or flexibility when the Bible is involved.

Yes, I could tell you were frustrated with your metamour. Hang in there. BREATHE.

Note you can flip that statement to apply to you, though:

"If you only try to understand it from that viewpoint, we are at an impasse, as there is no room for logic or flexibility when the Bible is not consulted for guidance."

It's like you speak Spanish and he speaks Italian. You can fuss at him for not speaking Spanish, or he can fuss at you because you don't speak Italian. Or you can both choose to step back and try to see if going to the Latin will aid you any. Try to find common ground, common language.

When you dismiss the tools he has to work with as illogical or inflexible (the Bible among them), how does this help fill his security bucket, or show that you are a compassionate, trustworthy person? Or does it cause him anxiety in making him wonder if you will also dismiss his feelings and limits and requests? If your goal is to get him to settle down the fastest, how does your behavior help you achieve your goal?

The Bible says a lot of things. There are a lot of different kinds of relationships in the stories of the Bible. But that doesn't matter. This is not Bible study. This is a relationship model he has chosen to be in.

He wouldn't have to try to understand it if he weren't in it. But in having chosen to be in it, it is on him to do the work required. You guys could sit down and talk about your expectations, fears, and how you will/will not support each other in "learning the new normal."

If Nathan has chosen to go where his heart is not at, from a place of fear or insecurity or whatever, he has not chosen self-respecting behavior.

That you choose to be in relationship with Nathan as your metamour is on you. This is the price of admission to love and hopefully date Ruth. She comes with a husband of this color that you must learn to deal with. Can you be in relationship with someone who does not respect themselves? Does Nathan plan to work on this?

That Ruth chooses to date with a husband of this color is on her. That's her price of admission to date you. She must learn to deal with him.

If Nathan chooses to be in polyship with you both, then he must learn to deal with himself.

Going somewhere you really do not want to go because you are afraid of "losing your wife" is not self-respecting behavior, because it goes against his belief system. Since self-respecting behavior is what fills the self-esteem bucket, he's filling his own insecurity bucket by choosing behavior like that. Does he see this?

Being a leaf blown about by the wind in his life, being an effect in his life, leads to feeling helpless, and again, fills the insecurity bucket. That "nothing" in his life is within his control.

That's not being a cause in life -- being the captain of his own ship. The captain may choose to do a lot of things, put the sail up to catch the wind, take the sail down, make good decisions, make poor judgement calls, but they own their choices. That fills their security bucket, because whatever happens, "All right, I choose to go there. I choose this for myself. I am in charge of myself and my well-being. I can handle it... whatever it is. I will find a way." That's a whole other kind of attitude -- one that does fill the security bucket inside.

I suppose you could ask him if he is a leaf or a captain. His Bible background/beliefs may or may not be a comfort to him as he weathers this new part of his life and his decision to participate in it.

There are many stories in the Bible about endurance and dealing with people.

Hello, Mary, pregnant teenager having a kid out of wedlock and dealing with people!

Hello, Noah, dealing with people while he builds his crazy ark, then dealing with the crazy flood!

I don't know where Nathan is in his faith-development process on the Fowler chart, but if polyshipping with you and Ruth includes a stage change for him, well, that's on you too. Do you want to date Ruth and deal with a metamour who is experiencing the stage 3 to 4 faith development stage, or 4 to 5, or whatever leap he's taking in his spiritual health?

It could be like dealing with a metamour with diabetes (a physical-health thing) or a person with memory problems (mental-health thing) or grieving (emotional-health thing). You've got a dude with a spiritual-health thing happening.

You could take your poly people as they are. That is your price of admission.

What do you want to do about it? What sort of feedback do you most need? Like how to endure this? Or how to help Ruth support Nathan?

What's your need right now, since you want to be in relationship with Ruth under the current conditions?

 

[graviton]

Good insight to the problem, Galagirl. I like that terminology "the price of admission."

 

[InfinitePossibility]

I wonder if some of the language you use might be feeding some of Nathan's worries.

You describe having strong feelings for Ruth, and that she feels the same way. And you say:

I asked her if she could approach Nathan with the possibility of us dating with no expectation of physical intimacy, outside of cuddling and kissing, and some emotional intimacy. I really need to have her romantically in my life.

To me, you are describing a friendship. I have several friends that I feel very strongly about, who I share enormous amounts of emotional intimacy with. Some that I cuddle and hold hands with sometimes. One that I kiss sometimes. Some that I would curl up with to watch films. These people are friends of mine. I don't see those relationships as being romantic.

We meet for dinner, coffee, drinks. We make time to see each other alone, as well as in groups. But still, they are friendships. I see them that way because I don't expect them to change. The levels of physical intimacy are about where we are all happy with. The emotional intimacy is grand. We aren't planning on merging our lives, or having children together, or really changing anything. We're friends.

Some of these friendships sound a lot like what you have with Ruth. But you're using language like dating and NRE and romance and having fallen in love. I wonder, is this just a language thing? Maybe if it is, you could explain that to Nathan. Or maybe it indicates that there is more to come. It does to me. Right now, you say that all you want to do is be able to meet up, talk, hold hands and maybe kiss. If I were Nathan, I'd be thinking that what you've asked for is what you think will be agreed to right now, and that probably the door is being opened to an ongoing pressure for the level of physical intimacy, time and emotional intimacy to progress.

Progress to where? Maybe his concern is partly that he doesn't feel like he knows your intentions.

I wonder if he feels that sort of creeping dread where you know that you're going to be asked for more and more, and you don't know where things are truly headed. That would bother me.

Your language indicates a level of dishonesty, to me. I wonder if that is partly what's bothering him.

 

[graviton]

I have been nothing but honest with Nathan. I knew there would be difficulty, and thus only asked for a bare minimum of "more than friends" type intimacy. He is even jealous of us holding hands, kissing, snuggling. There is a sexual attraction between us, but I have no intention of crossing that boundary. She and I have had ample opportunity, in some of the most tempting of circumstances, and were still able to control ourselves.

He claims the biggest issue is the intimacy that he feels he earned from her over years of kids and marriage is being given to me without earning it myself the same way, with all the ugly strings attached.

I told him that our relationships are completely different and assured him that I could never dream of competing with him based on the long difficult history they share.

Another thing he told me is that he doesn't like how he feels that their couple time (cuddling, sex) feels tainted by me. He feels that she is bringing my aura into his bed. Their sex life has skyrocketed from once every few weeks to once a day. She has typically been a sex-negative type person.

He even admitted that their emotional intimacy and communication with each other has improved greatly. But I guess if it was me that caused it then its evil and insidious.

I tried to help him understand that you can't insulate your spouse from the outside world. Her moods are changed and affected by eery personal interaction, be they friends, family, or grocery tellers, and to feel that she shouldn't bring any of that home is unrealistic. I can't believe he would rather go back to their old relationship style simply because it was unaccosted by me.

 

[GalaGirl]

He doesn't like how he feels that their couple time (cuddling, sex) feels tainted by me. He feels that she is bringing my aura into his bed. Their sex life has skyrocketed from once every few weeks to once a day. She has typically been a sex-negative type person. He even admitted that their emotional intimacy and communication with each other has improved greatly.

Basically he's dealing with mirroring and magnifying. A couple who chooses to open will have every crack magnified and reflected back. That's why it's best to start with a strong foundation.

He's discovered all the places -- communication, sex -- where they could have tended to the marriage better without you around as a catalyst.
But they didn't. Now you are around, and they have to.

Having that mirrored to him, if he thought "all was cool before," is hard to bear. It is tempting to want to go back to "not seeing" like before, and blame the newcomer (you) for this unwelcome knowledge.

Nathan could choose to dwell on the "lack" from before and fill his insecurity bucket. Or he could choose to use this new awareness and step it up and continue to enjoy his marriage more. Or he could choose something else entirely.

For you, though? You could try to offer sympathy, since you seem to talk to him. Try to be honest and see if that helps make the situation a bit more bearable for you. Say something like:

​

"Yes. It sounds like it is very hard to experience that sort of "mirror," where all the places in the marriage that could have had a little more TLC before I was around are shining out and reflected back at you. (<---Validate where he is at.)​

​

But I am glad you guys are tending to your marriage and are enjoying better communication and better sex with each other as a result. This is a good thing. You and Ruth are doing good things for each other." (<-- Focus on "togetherness" and his part in the effort to build that up.)​

​

​

You could always end on a positive; choose a constructive tone; try to fill his security bucket so he can learn how to fill it himself by modeling your talk as his inner talk. Then you won't have to deal with chronic insecurity coming from him anymore, or at least reduce the "volume" on that.

I tried to help him understand that you can't insulate your spouse from the outside world. Her moods are changed and effected by every personal interaction, be they friends, family, or grocery tellers, and to feel that she shouldn't bring any of that home is unrealistic. I can't believe he would rather go back to their old relationship style simply because it was unaccosted by me.

That first bit is logical. But the tone, if those were your words to him verbatim? That's "take away-ness." He's "losing" her to other people, the friends, the family, the grocery clerk. He already suffers too much of that kind of thinking. Don't fill that bucket by giving him more people to stress out about that will "take her away." He's already stressing out that you are "taking her away" somehow.

You could point him back to where Ruth is with him, so he can get secure in the "togetherness" instead. You could point to him putting in work on his marriage, and praise that, as something he can control.

Hopefully he gets into the habit of talking to himself that way, in more constructive way, and it results in him being more secure. Then he gets on to putting the work into his polyship.

Are they thinking about a counselor, if he needs professional support?

But that bit in bold? I'm not surprised. The unseeing who now have to see? All the places in the marriage that changed? If even for the better? Those are places in the marriage he had a hand in neglecting. They both did. To want to go back to a time where this knowledge was not in his awareness is a common enough reaction. Nobody likes to be called into account (which this kinda is) and be shown where they were lacking.

Some people handle that with grace, and move it forward toward improvement without too much extra support. Some people can't deal with that alone, and experience all sorts of things, regret, guilt, beating up on themselves, etc. They need more support to learn to surf that wave.

 

[graviton]

Galagirl, you are my favorite forum member. I appreciate your understanding.

 

[AnnabelMore]

I may be repeating some of the things that GG just wrote, I didn't fully read her post, but here are my thoughts --

Try to see things from his point of view. Imagine that your wife is sex-negative, and that this has always been a point of pain for you. Over the course of your marriage, it's sometimes made you feel unattractive and unloved by her. However, you've worked through those feelings and came out the other side stronger. The way you did it was by telling yourself that it wasn't you, it wasn't that she didn't want you specifically, this is just how she is, she's just not that interested in sex.

Then this new dude comes into the picture, and suddenly she is interested in sex... way more so than she ever was before, in fact. It turns out that all these years, it was you that was the problem. All the things you told yourself, all the ideas you still relied on to make things okay, were false all along. She wasn't disinterested in sex, she just needed someone to be excited about... and that person wasn't you.

Cut the guy a little slack, have some sympathy. You come off as very disdainful towards him. Pushover, indecisive, weird, wishy-washy... and maybe he is all those things, I don't know, but geez... Is it possible that he's picking up on your real feelings about him and that that's making it harder for him, to not just be shown up in terms of his wife's desires by another man, but to have it be a man who doesn't even respect him?

Take deep breaths. Be calm. You have what you want, right, intimacy with this woman, at least to a certain degree? You're blessed. In most cases, two divorces would be happening right now. Focus on the good stuff you've got, be grateful to the people, Esther and Nathan, who've made it possible because of their love for each of you -- and let this poor guy heal.

 

[graviton]

Anna, he really is all those things, but I do respect him still. It's my frustration that makes it sound more negative. I am also very respectful to him and think of him as one of my best friends due to the discussions and sharing that he and I have had. The talks that we have had go waaaaay deeper than what I imagine most married couples have, let alone a couple of dudes.

 

[Marcus]

Is it possible that he's picking up on your real feelings about him, and that's making it harder for him, to not just be shown up in terms of his wife's desires by another man, but to have it be a man who doesn't even respect him?

I agree with Anna. I can't imagine that none of your [OP] real feelings about this poor guy are apparent. I'm sure you are doing your best, "Nah, man, I don't think you're a punk" face when you talk to him... but you'd need to be one heck of a liar to pull it off.

You're blessed. In most cases, two divorces would be happening right now.

I wouldn't start counting those eggs yet. It looks to me like this guy is being bullied into being a cuckold (or at the very least he feels like it). If he is fundamentally monogamous, which is what it sounds like, he may never adopt another way of relating to people. Maybe he'll come around after years of soul searching and research, or maybe not. This is a HUGE fundamental worldview change we are talking about. Keep that in mind.

 

[graviton]

Well, both Esther and Ruth have been present during our interactions, and they have never once told me I was overly harsh, bullying, disrespectful or anything. They have only told me that they admire how gentle I am. Reading my frustration on a forum and actually seeing our interactions are two different things.

Plus, he and I were buddies before any of this started. In fact, we went to see a movie together last weekend, in spite of this stress in our lives. I would attempt to be less aggressive, but to be honest, I don't see how I can. And maybe that's better. I'm not one for pulling the wool over people's eyes to make them see me as anything other than who I really am as a person.

 

[Marcus]

He and I were buddies before any of this started. In fact, we went to see a movie together last weekend in spite of this stress in our lives.

I really hope you guys figure out a way for everyone to get what they want. That's one hell of a difficult proposition in a situation like this, but it's not like it is impossible.