Please help me understand monogamy

Ahem, um... I can't speak for the entire male species, but I know that Bold doesn't want a threesome unless it's for me. He's stated that a fair few times now. He used to tell me that he was into the idea, but he was actually stretching his feelings on it further than he really felt. He said he also felt it would be fun, in a light-hearted way, until he thought it through more seriously.

He realises it's more likely to be a double-edged sword than anything else (could be awkward, painful for him to see me with another, etc.).

I think his main desire was to feel included in my sex life. I still don't see how me having sex with someone else excludes him from my sex life, unless I was only willing to have sex with that other person instead of with him. You don't exclude someone from your life by working at a different company than them or eating a different diet from them. I know, I know, it's different than that. Still can't get my head around it. Maybe it's another for the acceptance pile!

As for male versus female secondaries for me: he's equally uncomfortable with either. I think, now that he's thought it through, he would be equally (un)willing to have a threeway with me and another guy, or me and another girl. Perhaps slightly more willing with the female, since he's heterosexual, but only because of that, and still extremely uncomfortable with even the idea.

We do have a little trouble with the "object not person" thing, I feel, because my secondary does not yet exist in our lives (i.e., I don't have one and there's no one that I intend to try to become involved with right now), so it's hard to consider the feelings of an imaginary person. I'm coming to look at it a lot differently, but one of my first questions to the threesome idea was "What if my secondary didn't want to?"
 
Erato said:
I can't speak for the entire male species, but I know that Bold doesn't want a threesome unless it's for me.
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I totally get this. When Redpepper, Polynerdist and I have threesomes, we are focussed on her as the woman we love. I must admit that at first it was all for her, from my perspective, but there was a big pay-off for me, as well. It reinforced how comfortable I am with Polynerdist and also confirmed my compersion for what they have.
 
Yeah, what Erato said. It's hard to think of someone's feelings when they don't exist yet and there's a wide range of what they might or might not want. They might love the idea, be okay with it if we are, not want to, or hate the idea. So, lightheartedly, it could be fun, I guess, just for the physical aspect, but there's much more to it. It would be much more focused for me on Erato as the woman I love, yes.
 
My recent SO, who felt monogamously toward me (although she has been poly in the past), wanted to be involved in all of my sexual activity. If I masturbated to porn, she wanted to be there. She wanted to not be absent from any of my sexual behavior, ever. For her, this is what monogamy with me would have meant, being present for all of my sexual life, me not having a sexual life separate from her. In other words, her monogamous feelings for me included the necessity that I be completely sexually exclusive. I know this isn't what mono means to everyone, but it's what she wanted. Her intensity was more on the level of need than want. I could not be sexual separately from her and not betray her. This intensity really helped me see clearly that I was non-monogamous, actually, because I had never been with someone that focused on sexual exclusivity before. It put things in very stark relief for me.

Immaterial
 
That's pretty much how I've always felt about my husband, Immaterial. We decided a couple of years ago that each of us would always give the other person chance to join in with any activity before doing it alone. It's actually been a whole load of fun, and really bonding for the two of us, though I know it sometimes horrifies people to think of giving up that privacy.
 
I think for folks who are looking for this sort of exclusive bonding and this completely wide-open sharing of everything, this is a wonderful agreement. At this point in my life, I'm more of a "separate vacations" kind of guy. :) I have experienced this "sharing everything" desire not as an enriching and deep vulnerability and nakedness with one's partner, but as sexually controlling, manipulative, possessive and fear-based. Obviously, this experience is peculiar to my own make-up and that of recent SOs, and has nothing to do with the agreement itself.

Immaterial
 
For me, being mono means I focus all of my energies, feelings, emotions on one person. I have enough problems just trying to keep one relationship together. I can't imagine tryin to do multiple. I don't think of love as a commodity that can run out, I think of love as a renewable resource. I just don't see myself giving it to more than one SO. Perhaps with enough time and the right situation, I will be a convert.
 
redpepper said:
Why do some men feel fine about having a threesome with their partner and their girlfriend but not about other aspects of poly? Is it just the fantasy of it? Do they not realize that the girlfriend is not an object, but a person? A loved person, as opposed to a sex object?

All I can say is that partners are not toys. Whoever you add to your relationship will not be moulded. It might be a good idea to check intent.
I get that he doesn't want to be left out of your sex life, Erato, but I bet if your partner were a man he would have no problem. What's the difference? Or should I say, there should be no difference.
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I don't know, RP. DW and I have talked about this at some length. I am definitely bi-curious and my having a relationship with a woman threatens him in only a minor way. In talking with others about this, it seems an issue of threat to masculinity. Now, please don't take this as accepting this as necessarily rigid. I still believe it is something to be examined.

I think the first step is understanding. DW has expressed on several occasions the desire that my other partners/potentials were female. I think it makes him feel safer. I'm hoping he jumps in, but in talking about it this morning, he said that there are several threads he wants to reply to but doesn't know if he'll have time. I feel the same way-- lots of great discussions going on!

Anyway, I wouldn't necessarily jump to it indicating an objectification of women, although I do think this happens more often than we realize or care to admit.

I also wonder about your molding comment. While I absolutely agree that one should not seek a relationship with plans to change their partner, I do think it is possible, if not ideal, for partners to mold each other, to some extent. Does this not fit with give and take? I do have an interesting way of looking at things sometimes, so maybe this is just a case of that.

And please know that I am in no way criticizing. It was just that your thoughts provoked my own, which I enjoy and appreciate!

Oh, and I love your suggestion on checking intent.

Warmly,
Christie
 
I guess what I meant by moulding was to not go into a relationship with expectations and specific ideas of what should occur. Sure, we all go into relationships with a vision about who they are as a person fitting into our lives, and us theirs, but I think that is where it should end. Beyond that should be a pleasant surprise, and one should be ready for those, because that is a positive attitude to have.

Going into it with the attitude that the person will have brown hair and will dye their hair because it's what I want (just as an example) just isn't realistic or fair, I don't think. One might as well get one of those real dolls, custom made just for you. Humans are not dolls. They should be respected for their own needs, values, ideas, what they want and feel comfortable with. I think it's dangerous and disrespectful to think otherwise.

Interesting point about a man's masculinity. I still don't hear of women saying they want to have a threesome with their male partner's male lover (or female for that matter) because they feel threatened. I know a few bi men in relationships or playing and have never heard of that. It makes your idea hard to appreciate. But as it seems to be your reality, I can respect that.

Sorry for the hijack! :)
 
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I've been reading this thread with some interest because I feel a lot of empathy for Bold. Bold's comments could have come directly from my own journal. As someone who is (still) transitioning from a completely mono viewpoint to a poly relationship, l can tell you some of the things I went through. I think you and I are coming from a similar place, mono a mono so to speak. ;)

1. Whatever happens, you'll survive. There were points that felt like life or death. They weren't; it just felt that way. That's society, and our training from childhood, and every damn love song on the radio talking. I've survived every step and our relationship has only gotten better. I've learned that, for us at least, the best path is forward through the issue, rather than hanging back and torturing myself. Which leads to...

2. My own imaginings were ten to a hundred times worse than reality. When I knew that she was going to be seeing another lover, my thoughts would reel out of control thinking about what she's going to be doing. Like a sharp tooth I couldn't stop touching, I would imagine things, and my anxiety would shoot through the roof. I couldn't think of anything else. But it is something that I was doing to myself. She wasn't doing that to me. And, inside that jealousy and anxiety was a certain amount of pleasure from torturing myself, but also from the titillation of thinking of her with another man.

There was a point when I discovered that she had met her lover secretly and hadn't told me, breaking the agreement we had at that point. I realized that it hurt much more that she had lied to me than that she had slept with him. I know, I know, it's a Catch-22, isn't it? I torture myself if I know in advance, and I'm upset if she's lied to me. But the reality of her having a lover was much less stressful than the torture I put myself through.

3. Consider developing a relationship with someone else in addition to your current partner, even for a brief time. You will learn a great deal. Going through the experience of having a lover and returning to your primary is one way that I learned how she felt towards me. I come back to her, and my feelings for her haven't diminished, rather our relationship has been enriched by the experience.

4. Make the time to talk after some of these key events. After she's been with someone else or vice-versa, make time for the two of you. One of you wants to share and the other wants some reassurance. It will be an intimate discussion that will significantly build your relationship. The first few times I returned from a date, I went through a plethora of feelings: I'm cheating on her!; it's wrong; I have to hide it; my partner must be insane to want me to do this; I can't tell her what I did; I enjoyed that a lot!; I don't like this; I had a great time with this other woman; it's stressful; Oh my god I love you so much!; I can't tell you what I did, I'm ashamed; and on and on...

It was stressful, titillating, wrong, right and intimate to talk with her about it. "Why does she want to hear this from me?" I thought. But she did want to hear and she was looking for reassurance from me, as well. She loves me very much and she wanted to know what I was feeling and how I was handling the experience.

5. Forget the terminology-- it's about finding and creating a unique relationship that works for you both. The verbiage and other people's expectations get in the way. There is no single definition or absolute rules for a poly or open relationship that needs to be followed. Find that unique relationship that works for you both.

Sorry for the long post. I hope you find something useful in it.
 
Wow, sdguitarguy! Good post. Would you be inclined to modify it and put it on the "lessons learned" sticky? I think it's an awesome perspective on what it's like at the beginning. Something that was so long ago for some of us and warrants writing about on that thread, as most of what is there is for those who have been in it longer. Thanks for your consideration.
 
Thanks! Yes, sure, I'd be glad to. I don't want to sidetrack this thread but if you let me know what you're looking for in terms of modifications, I can take a whack at it. Maybe you can message me directly rather than on the thread.
 
Thank you, sdguitarguy. A lot of that thinking is not in line with mine at all. Like, I'm so happy to be with Erato that I don't have the slightest interest in dating someone else, because I'm fulfilled on so many levels with other people. But if you were thinking like me at first, then that's comforting.

My main worry right now is what happens if I need time to get used to the thought of a secondary? Like, if we hadn't been local very long, and I wanted some time to build the foundation of our life, or there was so much going on I just wouldn't be able to handle the fear, would I be worth anything to Erato then, or just a guy holding her back? She's reassuring me that that's pretty much laughable. I'm trying to believe her. But just the feeling that I might need time to get comfortable feels wrong and terrible and controlling, but I guess it's a knee-jerk reaction from all of this making me pretty much afraid of monogamy, when before I had been content with it.

Sorry for rambling. My head isn't screwed on tightly right now.

I realize now I had missed a post of Erato's.

Honestly? No, it does not. I understand the need to trust the person, because he is trusting them with the woman he loves (and my/his sexual health), but I don't understand how he is opening up to them. He won't be physically intimate with them, he won't share his secrets with them (and I sure won't share his secrets either!), and he won't even have to spend any time with them if he doesn't want to.

I suppose my boundaries between love, sex and friendship are less rigid than his. He has friends I don't like/trust and vice versa for him with my friends. I realise having a lover would have more impact on him than a friendship, but I still don't see how it forces him to relate to that person more than via me physically and a little more emotionally than with a friend.

There must be something I'm missing I'm just not sure I can grasp what that is, even if it's pointed out to me. And please note that this is all in theory; I have yet to have multiple partners at once.
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Um... I kind of wanted to know if that was an unreasonable thing to want and do, that, the feeling of letting someone into that intimate part of my life meant I was connected on a level above friend with them. I'd like to be able to trust them on a level I'd need to trust any lover that was with me personally. Even if they aren't with me. It's so confusing. I'm still not sure what I want/need.

The funny thing is that in conversations I've had with him (and I hope you don't mind my sharing this, Bold) he has said that if I had a female partner he would be disappointed if she didn't want to sleep with him and me together, at least on occasion, because he would want to with us [me and my secondary].

Now, I have to point out, he has honestly stated that he has pretty much zero interest in a threesome with me and another woman unless I want it. Yet if it's with my secondary, who I love, it's a different story? It confuses me. He mentioned something about not wanting to feel left out of my sex life, but I don't feel that his sleeping with my secondary would make him any closer to me. I don't particularly like the idea of it, anyway.
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Eek, no! I'd only be interested if you wanted it and they were someone special to you. There are the conflicting feelings of wanting to be included and wanting to not know anything about it. That way is probably the most comfortable (read: least painful) way to include myself, because you'd be there and I'd still be focused on you. But I haven't given it any kind of serious thought until now, I guess.
 
I don't have the slightest interest in dating someone else because I'm fulfilled on so many levels with other people.
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That particular point was about you gaining an understanding of her viewpoint, not in your interest in dating.

I understand that you probably have zero interest in dating other women. I say this because I also had no interest in seeing other women.

The desired outcome, for me, is to maximize happiness of the people involved. Whenever we have a conflict of any type, I want to better understand where my partner is coming from. What you decide to do with that information is up to you.
 
sdguitarguy said:
That particular point was about you gaining an understanding of her viewpoint, not in your interest in dating.

I understand that you probably have zero interest in dating other women. I say this because I also had no interest in seeing other women.

The desired outcome, for me, is to maximize happiness of the people involved. Whenever we have a conflict of any type, I want to better understand where my partner is coming from. What you decide to do with that information is up to you.
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Oh. I'm sorry. I kind of see what you're saying, but I'm not sure if it'll work. Like, Erato trying to be exclusive won't/hasn't helped her understand a monogamous point of view. I think coming back and seeing the love hasn't diminished might help a little, yeah, but it still won't help me understand why it's a pressing need to experience that with another person, while with one already. And I would be going into it as a monogamous guy, not a polyamorous one. Reading descriptions here on the site helped a little, as well, but not much.
 
dazedandlost said:
For me, being mono means I focus all of my energies, feelings, emotions at one person. I have enough problems just trying to keep one relationship together, I can't imagine trying to do multiple. I don't think of love as a commodity that can run out, I think of love as a renewable resource. I just don't see myself giving it to more than one SO. Perhaps with enough time and the right situation, I will be a convert.
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I want to second this!!

Oh, and sdguitarguy's post at 4:03pm 7/20 just rocked. A lot hit home for me as well, mono a mono. :)

-DW
 
Given enough time and the right situation, maybe I will be a convert.
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I generally agree with the rest of dazedandlost's comments, except this bit. This isn't a religious war. Conversion is not required. People seem to continually cast this as an all-or-none, good-versus-evil type of situation. It's just not so, though admittedly, it can feel like it. It's about finding or creating a relationship that one can be happy in. But that means fully understanding what one needs to be happy.

If monogamy is absolutely the only way for someone to be happy, then find someone who agrees with you-- that's like 99% of the rest of the population! But we, you, I, have chosen to have a relationship with someone who is polyamorous. Here's the reality-- if your only solution is that the other person become monogamous and exclusive, that probably won't fly. But I think this casts the issue in its absolute harshest, black & white light. Is your goal to find a monogamous relationship? Or to have a relationship with this specific person? Either is ok and perfectly acceptable.

My late wife did not want to have children, either her own or by adoption. I wanted to have children. It seemed like there was no middle ground. So what was the solution? Well, one possibility was to leave her and find a woman who wanted to have children. Another was that I possibly could have convinced her to have children, or forced the issue, and I think she would have, If I felt that kids were the primary reason to have a relationship. Was I getting married to have kids? Or was I looking for a life with this particular person? What was I looking for in having children?

We had a great life together for 22 years without kids. I found other ways to satisfy my need for children. Looking back, we were a lot happier, and better off financially and emotionally than most of the couples with children that we knew.

It still won't help me understand why it's a pressing need to experience that with another person, while with one already.
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Pressing? It's only a pressing need in terms of your own relationship. I don't know. How pressing is it?

And you're making assumptions about what you'll experience. I don't know what you'll experience, but I guarantee you that it will be different from whatever your expectations are.

For me, it helped me better understand my partner and understand my own feelings about our relationship. It didn't convert me or change my worldview dramatically.

Reading descriptions here on the site helped a little, as well, but not much.
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Sure, I agree. My point exactly. Personal experience is much more enlightening than reading about it.
 
All I have is WOW! sdguitarguy, YOU ROCK!! I read your post 4 times. There is so much in that post. Lots of insight. I am working hard to make it through my problems, and with the info in that post, I think, hell, I KNOW I can do this! Thank you again! :D
 
I think you could add that post in a modified form to the "lessons learned" sticky too, sdguitarguy. Great post, very insightful.
 
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sdguitarguy said:
3. Consider developing a relationship with someone else in addition to your current partner, even for a brief time. You will learn a great deal. Going through the experience of having a lover and returning to your primary is one way that I learned how she felt towards me. I come back to her and my feelings for her haven't diminished. Rather our relationship has been enriched by the experience.
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Nice post, sdguitarguy. This point concerns me a little. Not for you or others, but definitely for someone who turns out to be truly monogamous. Tempting fate, as it might be seen, is a dangerous game. If someone is truly mono and they happen to form a connection with someone else, the original relationship is lost, or the mono person ends up playing pretend with their original partner.

Of course, they may discover they have the capacity to maintain multiple connections and were poly all along. Win-win!
 
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