Poly Fidelity

[tishmish]

Hello Poly Fam,

HI, I am T (she/her), and I am doing some relationship work between my LTP, NP them/they/she (M), and my new Meta (W) (she/her) and as we begin to cohabitate together and decide how our future will look; I am looking for suggestions for questions regarding equity and fidelity in our dynamic. We are female, queer, and have no children, and no one is married, but marriage and children are in the discussions.

For context: This is a closed V in which neither W nor I seek other partners, nor will we have a romantic relationship. However, we are good at being friends, and there is a lot of mutual respect there. I have been with my partner for almost two years. We went through a dynamic with their previous partner (H) that quickly became hierarchical, in which I was deprioritized, and our relationship identity was barely existent. This dynamic was cultivated partly due to my passive nature and partly due to heavy external factors and H not being a very Poly-positive person nor having the interest or desire to pursue a higher understanding, and M is quick to be pushed over and has neglected to advocate for our relationship identity in the We have both done a lot of work together and independently since that experience; however, some life transitions are coming upon us at a quicker rate than any of us has anticipated, and this brings up a lot of fear and questions about the future.

What does the ideal model of our dynamic look like for you: co-sleep arrangements, income/resource sharing, public-facing/privacy?

How do we prevent social and economic subscribed hierarchy in our dynamic?

Will solo travel be achievable for both of us?

What involvement will we have in financial planning, and what opportunity will we have to own assets with each of us jointly?

Marriage is an inherently social, emotional, legal, and financial privilege that provides a permanent exclusive hierarchy to legal, financial, medical, and social rights and privileges, which cannot be given or enforced easily to one another. How will we protect those things if marriage is involved?

Will marriage place limits on either of our relationships?

Are we each able to have a public union ceremony?

If we have children, who will be legally recognized as the parents? Who will socially and emotionally be recognized as parents, and how?

Would you be willing to meet a poly attorney to navigate the legal terms of a domestic partnership?

How will we ensure each of us has access to relationship visibility?

How much are we willing to share with family and friends?

Will we be able to spend most holidays together?

What is our definition of support? What does a support system look like?

What are we willing to share about our relationship with the rest of the world? Reasonable set boundaries with loved ones, friends, and social media?

Any questions, thoughts, or suggestions are so welcome!

 

[Magdlyn]

You have a LOT of questions, and it might be hard for our busy members to cover all of them in a speedy fashion.

I highly recommend you check out our resource list. The books, articles and podcast there go into great detail about all the poly basics, such as the ones you list, and even not-so-basic issues you will encounter. I'd start with Opening Up for books.

https://polyamory.com/threads/most-commonly-cited-advice-articles-master-thread.155304/

 

[Magdlyn]

Also, if you'd please use nicknames for your partner and meta instead of just initials, it would help a lot with the clarity of your posts. Thanks so much.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

The answer to a lot of your questions depends a lot on your individual circumstances as they stand (like how much assets and money you each have individually) and your personal desires. On top of that, it all depends on your individual relationships with each other. The things you're talking about are things that usually happen when a couple have long term compatibility.

There are things you say that make the answer to some questions somewhat obvious. Yes, if you don't want a hierarchical triad, you have to be out otherwise the closeted partner isn't afforded the social privileges of partnership by others. But it isn't as simple as that. For some people, it would cause them more strife than happiness to be out in all areas of their life. Some people just aren't bothered about a lack of social validation so they don't feel inferior even if many other people would.

The other thing is that with all the will in the world, you can't stop others from viewing your situation with a hierarchical lens even if you don't. Sometimes they'll choose the longest term partner, or the one they see as most compatible with you, or the one they like best, and they elevate that partner to a primary status which is reflected in their actions. They treat that partner like family, and at best, your others like welcomed guests.

 

[Ariakas]

Hello Poly Fam,

HI, I am T (she/her), and I am doing some relationship work between my LTP, NP them/they/she (M), and my new Meta (W) (she/her) and as we begin to cohabitate together and decide how our future will look; I am looking for suggestions for questions regarding equity and fidelity in our dynamic. We are female, queer, and have no children, and no one is married, but marriage and children are in the discussions.

For context: This is a closed V in which neither W nor I seek other partners, nor will we have a romantic relationship. However, we are good at being friends, and there is a lot of mutual respect there. I have been with my partner for almost two years. We went through a dynamic with their previous partner (H) that quickly became hierarchical, in which I was deprioritized, and our relationship identity was barely existent. This dynamic was cultivated partly due to my passive nature and partly due to heavy external factors and H not being a very Poly-positive person nor having the interest or desire to pursue a higher understanding, and M is quick to be pushed over and has neglected to advocate for our relationship identity in the We have both done a lot of work together and independently since that experience; however, some life transitions are coming upon us at a quicker rate than any of us has anticipated, and this brings up a lot of fear and questions about the future.

What does the ideal model of our dynamic look like for you: co-sleep arrangements, income/resource sharing, public-facing/privacy?

Ideally I get one night a week, and one date. For partners. Comets need less but my intensity with them is less.

Honestly, ideally, I would have 2 live in partners, but... thats beyond difficult, so the other ideal is more realistic.

How do we prevent social and economic subscribed hierarchy in our dynamic?

You can't. Here is why

Lets say you may 200k, partner 2 makes 30k and partner 3 makes 100k. When partner 2 wants to go to dinner, you will likely always "eat down" and not eat at restaurants a 200k member wants to eat at. Unless partner 2 doesn't mind having everything paid for. Same with trips etc.

Maybe folks dont like fully blended, and having been in a quad, I agree with this. I would NEVER blend again.

And then as for heirachical - different people have different needs. If you find the right 3 folks, then you end with with a cute jigsaw puzzle of needs and boundaries for the 4 relationships. However ideal that sounds, it is unlikely. Someone is bound to feel left out, while someone else gets more attention. So you need to manage that. And heirarchy for the sake of defining responsibility isn't a bad thing. Lets say parter 2 and partner 3 are NPs, and have fiscal and childrearing responsibilities. That will be prioritized over the 200k partner. That isn't heirarchal, thats responsible.

Will solo travel be achievable for both of us?

Yes. Why wouldn't it be

What involvement will we have in financial planning, and what opportunity will we have to own assets with each of us jointly?

Tread carefully...

Marriage is an inherently social, emotional, legal, and financial privilege that provides a permanent exclusive hierarchy to legal, financial, medical, and social rights and privileges, which cannot be given or enforced easily to one another. How will we protect those things if marriage is involved?

You talk through boundaries, needs and desires. Marriage within the construct of poly isn't "protected"

Some poly folks build legally binding llc's with shares. Then all assets are bought in the llc and everyone has protected shares.

Will marriage place limits on either of our relationships?

Only if you want it to

Are we each able to have a public union ceremony?

Yes.. but if you live somewhere its illegal.. good luck

If we have children, who will be legally recognized as the parents? Who will socially and emotionally be recognized as parents, and how?

Depends on where you live. 99% of the time if the birth parents are alive they take priority 100% of the time. BC in canada has been toying with the idea of all poly partners holding a portion of the responsibility. With the genetic parent being the primary. As far as I know BC is the only place trying this, and its why I wont be cohabbing anytime soon with poly folks with kids

Would you be willing to meet a poly attorney to navigate the legal terms of a domestic partnership?

yes, also a corp lawyer for said llc above

How will we ensure each of us has access to relationship visibility?

huh

How much are we willing to share with family and friends?

up to you

Will we be able to spend most holidays together?

negotiate and prioritize

What is our definition of support? What does a support system look like?

What are we willing to share about our relationship with the rest of the world? Reasonable set boundaries with loved ones, friends, and social media?

Any questions, thoughts, or suggestions are so welcome!

It depends

 

[kdt26417]

Hello tishmish,

I, too, am in a V (MFM straight), the three of us share a house together. We don't have a very exciting life, and I think all three of us are content with that. My partner and my meta sleep together and that is okay by me; I sleep alone but my cat sleeps with me. Our finances are mingled. We don't do many PDA's, and are mostly in the closet about our poly arrangement. We have things like power of attorney and living wills that help equalize things between us (my partner and meta are married to each other). We have no kids. I usually fly by myself out to Utah once a year to visit my relatives. You can pick and choose from my V for your own V. Whatever works for you; everyone is different and unique.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Bobbi]

There's a lot here so I'll just offer more questions and stuff to think about.

my new Meta (W) (she/her) and as we begin to cohabitate together

Cohabitating with a "new" meta? How new? You shouldn't even consider cohabitating let alone any of this more permanent legal entanglements while the dyad relationship is in NRE. Wait at least a year. I would add another year while all 3 cohabitate before entertaining legal entanglements. Remember, it's not just one new relationship that has to work(partner +meta) it's 4! You and partner, partner and meta, you and meta, and all three of you together. Although you aren't a triad, all three are thinking of living together so all of these relationships come into play.

I am looking for suggestions for questions regarding equity and fidelity in our dynamic.

What does equity look like to each of you? Does it mean each put in 1/3 of all bills? Or does it mean you each put in 1/3 of your income? Ex. My NP and I calculated total net income for each. Added together to determine total household income and divided by each of our net income to find the percentage of the total we make. In my case I make 18% of the total household income. So I contribute 18% of the rent and bills. He contributes his percentage.

What does fidelity mean to each of you? For monogamous people it means no sex with others. But fidelity can mean following through on obligations, remaining honest and transparent, holding agreements, etc.

We went through a dynamic with their previous partner (H) that quickly became hierarchical, in which I was deprioritized, and our relationship identity was barely existent. This dynamic was cultivated partly due to my passive nature and partly due to heavy external factors and H not being a very Poly-positive person nor having the interest or desire to pursue a higher understanding, and M is quick to be pushed over and has neglected to advocate for our relationship identity

I know you say you've done work but I want to emphasize that your history indicates that going slow is also essential. You need to be very confident in what your needs are and have the skills to speak up assertively without blame or shame. Maple (you can choose another nickname if you dislike but initials are hard) being the hinge has the most difficult role as the person to manage both relationships. They need to learn to make tough decisions to try to keep both partners happy while considering individual needs of each partner. This means holding boundaries, making decisions that someone may not like and managing it all. They too need to be able to assertively speak up not only for themselves but for their relationships. If these weaknesses have not been mastered, you risk getting yourselves into another similar dynamic if another strong filled partner enters the mix. Poly requires these skills from everyone to be successful.

some life transitions are coming upon us at a quicker rate than any of us has anticipated, and this brings up a lot of fear and questions about the future.

Unexpected changes can do that. Fear is normal. Try not to go much further than the immediate issue at hand or you can become overwhelmed. Take on one issue at a time. Leave legalities, marriage,etc for much later. The only way marriage is of the essence is if you have to do it for someone to stay in the country. I hope you aren't in that position.

What does the ideal model of our dynamic look like for you: co-sleep arrangements, income/resource sharing, public-facing/privacy?

I don't think there is an ideal. Each person has their own idea in their head. You need to figure this out within your cule and find the compromise everyone can support.

For me? I'd get a three bedroom place where each can have their own room. Having a space that's mine is essential when sharing housing. Each person can decorate their space as they see fit without intervention. Having a space to escape to is also essential. The two arms of the V can host overnights in their rooms and figure out a schedule everyone is happy with. I'd like 3 nights per week with one partner, 3 with the other and one alone. I would prefer set days with each, (as opposed to a general every other) but that's me.

I went over income a bit above, if one partner makes more then go over scenarios that would make you feel uncomfortable regarding spending more, gifts, sharing with partner vs non partner. Ex. You may all agree that person earning more can spend as they see fit but then when expensive gifts or numerous gifts start flowing, other partner feels like they can't compete, can't reciprocate, or feels left out. Figure out what you ALL are comfortable with.

How do we prevent social and economic subscribed hierarchy in our dynamic?

You probably can't. Even families with multiple children can't make everything equitable. There will always be a child with more needs. You just have to over communicate with each other and come to a consensus everyone can agree to.

Will solo travel be achievable for both of us?

This should be a non issue unless money is a concern. This goes back to who is contributing what, and is everyone okay with the decision that's made .

What involvement will we have in financial planning, and what opportunity will we have to own assets with each of us jointly?

This gets messy. I would leave each individual to plan for their retirement and savings. If the relationship continues into retirement, you can continue to work on who contributes what, but if things end it's just easier to take what's mine without fighting, entitlement or lawyers that will take half anyway.

As far as joint ownership, I'd only consider a house. Each person owns a percentage of what they contribute. Of course, this depends on the state (or country) as this isn't possible in some states. That's where an LLC can help. Just keep in mind, the more legally entwined you are, the higher the financial cost and even emotional damage can be if the relationship ends. It can also leave a person with limited income in a dangerous position. A person with limited income can feel trapped in a bad relationship that they can't leave because they cannot afford to hire attorneys to get out. I think the most freedom to have a healthy relationship and be happy is if everyone has separate stuff. It's empowering to choose to be in a relationship as opposed to staying because getting out is too hard. Patriarchy implanted this enmeshment into our psyche for the purpose of keeping women(in traditional heteronormative relationships) trapped in marriages. We have since learned that everyone needs their own money.

Marriage is an inherently social, emotional, legal, and financial privilege that provides a permanent exclusive hierarchy to legal, financial, medical, and social rights and privileges, which cannot be given or enforced easily to one another. How will we protect those things if marriage is involved?

There are some legal things you can do, but even with a will it becomes difficult. You can name a beneficiary for a financial account that overrides a will, but you can't split that account. You can get a power of attorney for healthcare but can only name one person.

I would avoid marriage if at all possible. You could agree that the marriage is just for citizenship or medical benefits, but there's nothing to enforce this and prevent the married partner from taking ownership of their legal station.

If you are in the US, it's not smart to get married for medical insurance anyway because Obamacare is so cheap (even free if making under $70k per year. Being married eliminates these benefits.

 

[Bobbi]

As I read through, I see "new meta", "transitions are coming upon us at a quicker rate than any of us has anticipated," "cohabitating," and "marriage."

As I read between the lines, I'm wondering if this is an international relationship and if so, this complicates things WAY beyond poly.

Does a marriage need to happen to keep someone in the country?

 

[MeeraReed]

By "solo travel," do you actually mean separate-dyad travel?

Like you with Maple on a trip without your metamour (Willow), then Maple and Willow on their own trip without you?

Because yes, that should be fine and in fact Maple should be able to take separate vacations with each of her partners. Plus everyone should be able to do solo travel on their own or with other friends.

But things like finances or logistics can complicate things. What if Maple and Willow can afford to take a lavish international dream trip together, but you and Maple can only afford to visit your family for a "vacation" that involves a lot of navigating family dynamics and eldercare labor, etc. (Just a random example to illustrate what I mean).

That's why Bobbi is advocating for all of you to take time to navigate these things slowly. Don't make any major financial or legal decisions yet.

 

[MeeraReed]

Also, I have a question specifically because you titled your post "Poly Fidelity." What is important about the fidelity part of your arrangement?

Why is your V closed?

Are you and Willow both mono and happy not dating anyone other than Maple?

Are you excited and happy about your future with Maple as part of a live-in V with Willow as your metamour?