Polyamory and threesomes are not the same, correct?

[Beth13]

Hello All,

Newb here who's confused and hoping some more experienced polys can offer some advice.

Background: I am a straight female who is monogamous. My fiance James came out as being poly/bi going on 2 years ago. Mind you, we've been together for over 6 years, and engaged for most of it, so this came as a shock.

James was my first everything (relationship/sex). Poly was never something I considered for myself, so I did not want to throw away the relationship "just because." I do love him and want him to be happy, so I am trying to be open, but at the same time not sure what I can handle.

We tried a relationship in the past and it failed. James hooked up with Alfrey from work, and while I had a little discomfort, it did not bother me too much (mostly just uncomfortable with PDAs-- hugs and kisses are ok, but full on make-out sessions, I am not comfortable with).

James really wanted me to have a relationship/threesome with Alfrey. Now, while he has no problem jumping into the physical side of relationships quickly, I tend to need more than attraction. I need to get to know a person enough to trust and be friends with them before anything physical in nature comes into play. So Alfre and I took the time to hang out and were on our way to being friends.

Our problems came with James pushing both of us into doing things of a sexual nature before either of us was ready. The result-- Alfrey got angry/unhappy with James and pulled away from him, but became closer with me (mainly because I just wanted to be friends and was not interested in doing things of a sexual nature yet). So naturally James got hurt, and the next thing I knew, he was saying Alfre was out to get me, and break us up, and his friends were warning him, etc.

End result, Alfrey is no longer on the scene. I'm less one possible new friend and totally confused/lost as to what really happened, versus what James told me. He went back to pushing for me to have threesomes/moresomes, to the point I had to give him the ultimatum of exclusive or break up. I do not like having to do that, but the pain/stress was just too much for me.

PROBLEM: Recently James brought up wishing to try again with having an open relationship with another. He really wants me to be with another man with him. I told him the problem wasn't being with another person, but that he pushes for too much too soon. My main problem is he is really pushing me to have threesomes/moresomes. I am super not comfortable with this. While I'm not totally opposed to an open relationship, I am strongly against seeing/participating in sex acts with others, especially seeing others with James. I am not saying a threesome could never happen, but I am saying it has to happen at my pace, with someone of my choosing. I'm worried that while I love James, is a future possible with him? I want him to be happy, but not at the expense of my happiness. Am I opposed to polyamory, or just the idea/practice or threesomes/moresomes, or both?

Confused and stressed, thy name is Beth.

 

[GalaGirl]

Am I opposed to polyamory, or just the idea/practice or threesomes/moresomes, or both?

Sounds to me like you are opposed to James pushing things on you, or rushing you into things that you do not want for yourself at this time. You stated several times that this was the problem, his pushing.

You want to determine your behaviors yourself. You choose who, what, when, where, how and why. Not him.

James was pushing Alfrey also. He doesn't seem to understand that while he might be ready to jump in, other people are not. It's not all about his jollies here. Why does he treat other people like toys or things, and not people with a will of their own? So weird. Kinda creepy too.

I'd tread with caution there. Maybe you are open to threesomes and polyshipping, but not with J.

So it's best to just say no. No threesomes. No polyshipping. Stop pushing me. Not gonna happen.

You already said that. Look:

I had to give him the ultimatum of exclusive or break up. I do not like having to do that, but the pain/stress was just too much for me.

Does he respect your limit? Nope. Look at the behavior he chooses:

Recently J brought up wishing to try again with having an open relationship with another.

It's your move now. You told him your limit. He chose to push again and not respect your limit. Are you gonna uphold the consequence and break up?

You could honor your own limit of tolerance for all this stress and pushy-pushy, and break up. Save yourself future drama with this person.

Breaking up stinks, but if preserving your long-term sanity and health means going through some short-term break up suckage, maybe that's the choice that stinks least in this whole scenario? To be free of the stress and drama crazy?

How are you feeling about it?

Galagirl

 

[IndieSolo]

Nobody should be pushing you to do anything sexual with anyone else if you are not ready, and especially since you have made it clear you don't want to. It's your body, you choose who to be sexual with. No one else has that right, whether you are engaged or married or not.

And NO, polyamory is not simply threesomes and group sex. Polyamory is about having multiple love relationships, and many poly people never have group sex. James suddenly seems to have become very focused on sex acts (which makes me wonder what happened to head him in that direction, if it wasn't an interest before). But group sex is just group sex. It's not polyamory, and not automatically what poly people do! A poly relationship just means that a person has more than one partner. But what's important about the word "polyamory" is the "amor" part. It's all about the love and being loving, not having as much group sex as possible!

I think James is being completely unreasonable and, I agree, creepy. So to me, it looks like walking away from the relationship is a healthy thing to do for yourself right now, though of course it will hurt after investing so much into it for years. Good for you for looking out for you, stating your position clearly and taking a stance.

Is Alfrey a man or woman? I just want to get clear on who's who.

 

[Beth13]

Is Alfrey a man or woman? Just want to get clear on who's who.

Alfrey was a male coworker of J's.

I may be a sucker for punishment, but I cannot give up on James just yet. I know he loves me, but I just think he's confused, and so hooked on his fantasy that he's not being objective and hearing me.

I keep telling him we should go to of the local poly support group meetings so he can talk to others and possibly make some friends, as our friend base has shrunk due to people moving away, etc. He keeps saying he wants to have/make more friends to socialize with. But he's opposed to the idea of going to the poly gatherings, for some reason. I figured this would be a great way for him to meet other poly people, and have a support base, and make some new friends. I'm for anything that gets us out of the house, and meeting new people and friends who might share like interests. I may be a shy introvert, but I do like meeting people who share common interests and making new friends.

Either way, it's nice to know it's not me being unreasonable, but James being too pushy. With him being so pushy, and me having no one to really talk to about this, it's caused me to get confused and question myself emotionally, when intellectually I know I am correct, if that makes sense. Thank you both for listening and the advice.

 

[ManofDiscovery]

Another way of looking at it could be to ask yourself the question:

'What would I need in order to feel comfortable about going ahead with this situation?'

As in, you rightly say J is being too pushy, which implies you're not comfortable enough yet. That also implies you may be comfortable enough at some point in the future.

So what would need to happen between now and then in order to bridge the gap? What is not happening now that is causing you to want to push back?

 

[Beth13]

Another way of looking at it could be to ask yourself the question:

'What would I need in order to feel comfortable about going ahead with this situation?'

So what would need to happen between now and then in order to bridge the gap? What is not happening now that is causing you to want to push back?

For one, when I even slightly indicate that I might be interested in something like that in the future, he pushes for right now, as in calling up a male friend/acquaintance and setting something up that night or that week. I first need to know and trust anyone I plan to let in my life that much, not accounting if there's any kind of attraction at all.

Then, if I indicate the possibility of a future threesome, he immediately starts running away with the idea of orgies, and wanting a female in the mix, when I have explicitly indicated I would do nothing with a female, as I am not attracted to females, and that it would put me in a negative mental place due to having been molested by a female when I was a child.

With those two in mind, I tend to want to run away when he start in on adding another to mix. I have told him to slow down and that I cannot move that fast, but he seems to have this idea in his head that once things get going, everything will work out, and that it's nothing more than "first time jitters." It's like he's in his own fantasy land, not paying attention to reality and hearing what I am saying. Super frustrating.

 

[GalaGirl]

He keeps saying he wants to have/make more friends to socialize with. But he's opposed to the idea of going to the poly gatherings, for some reason.

Why would he go to poly gatherings to learn how to have relationships with multiple players, when what he wants is no-strings-attached sex with multiple people?

It sounds like he wants to swing, play in threesomes/moresomes. That's fine, if that's what he wants for himself, and gets consent from all players. But it doesn't sound like he does get full consent for participation, so even in a swing context he's out of line.

That he pushes you like this against your will, against your limits, does not respect or even hear your limits, is super creepy.

I hope you don't get yourself into a situation where you give an inch and he takes a mile.

This part really creeps me out:

I have told him to slow down, and that I cannot move that fast, but he seems to have this idea in his head that once things get going, everything will work out and that it's nothing more than "first time jitters."

He's not going to plan something and just spring it on you and not listen to your "NO," right? Carry on with it because "it is just first time jitters," and once things get going it will work out? That sounds rapey and creepy. Ew.

I had to give him the ultimatum of exclusive or break up. I do not like having to do that but the pain/stress was just too much for me.

Again, you gave your limit and a consequence.

When you choose not to enforce the consequences, what do you teach him? That your "no" means jack, because he can keep on pushing and eventually you fold from exhaustion.

Tread very carefully with this dude. I am concerned for your well-being.

http://speakoutloud.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Tactics-Murphy-2010.pdf in case you need it. I am hoping you don't, but this is just too weird and creepy for me. So I offer it in the spirit of you taking a checklist assessment of his behaviors in case anything else is "off" there. You live there -- you know your own reality best. Just check it with a marker. Then add it up.

One behavior alone is nothing. People can have a bad day and apologize later for that. But if you have a whole collection, beware!

You are not crazy to find the pushy-pushy unacceptable. This whole thing sounds yucky.

Love is not enough in a relationship. There must also be respect and consideration.

Galagirl

 

[Beth13]

Why would he go to poly gatherings to learn how to have relationships with multiple players when what he wants is no-strings-attached sex with multiple people?
It sounds like he wants to swing... That's fine if that's what he wants for himself, and gets consent from all players.

This is my concern== that he is confusing swinging with poly. He says he wants relationships, but honestly it sounds more like he wants swinging and play.

I flat-out told him I needed to talk to whomever he tried to bring into the mix before anything happens first, just so I know where their head is at. I started this after his first attempt at having a relationship with a mutual female friend. I trusted her not to do anything to threaten my relationship with him, so gave him the green light when he indicated he wanted to start a relationship with her. At that time I was leaving it all up to him to talk things out with whomever he was interested in, as this was mainly his desire.

I soon realized something was off, and immediately pulled her aside, and asked her if she realized what he was up to. Once I told her that he was trying to start an actual relationship with her, she was immediately shocked and put a stop to things, saying that he made no such mention to her of wanting that, and that it was not what she wanted from him.

He was thinking they were in a relationship, and she was just lonely and wanting a friend with benefits. He was all hurt, saying he thought she was agreeable and that he talked to her.

I honestly think he's in his own world, and just hears what he wants to hear, and not what is actually being said. After that, I made it a point to talk to anyone he's trying to start a relationship with, just to see if he did actually talk to them and see what their thoughts are on the matter. It's saved a lot of drama and headaches.

As for him forcing, no. Manipulating a situation, maybe. And that's a concern, because no one likes to be manipulated, especially me.

 

[GalaGirl]

I hear your concerns. All I can say is that they are not unfounded. You are not crazy. Be careful!

 

[LovingRadiance]

Nobody should be pushing you to do anything sexual with anyone else if you are not ready, and especially since you have made it clear you don't want to. It's your body; you choose who to be sexual with. No one else has that right, whether you are engaged or married or not.

This.

And no, polyamory does not = threesomes. Sometimes threesomes happen, sometimes they don't. This is true with people who are poly and people who are not.

 

[kyrsten]

I agree with all the previous advice, and want to add that in polyamory, threesomes may not even be the preferred thing. In my relationships, we are far more likely to have one-on-one intimacy between any two of us than to have a threesome. Life is just plain too busy, and with three children we have almost no privacy!

 

[AnnabelMore]

I would encourage him to read this thread. I think that both your sentiments laid out so fully and clearly, and the advice given so far, are just what he needs to see in plain language. If that's not enough to make him realize that the way he's acting is driving you away and accomplishing the opposite of his goals, then I don't know what will.

 

[ManofDiscovery]

For one, when I even slightly indicate that I might be interested in something like that in the future, he pushes for right now, as in calling up a male friend/acquaintance and setting something up that night or that week. I first need to know and trust anyone I plan to let in my life that much, not accounting if there any kind of attraction at all.

Then, if I indicate the possibility of a future threesome, he immediately starts running away with the idea of orgies, and wanting a female in the mix, when I have explicitly indicated I would do nothing with a female, as I am not attracted to females, and that it would put me in a negative mental place...

I respect your honesty.

What I'm hearing is that if you're going to have sex with anyone, regardless of if it's a threesome, you need to feel a level of trust, whereas James just wants to enjoy the fantasy.

Neither of you are wrong here, but I do agree with you that he is getting so wrapped up in his own fantasy that he isn't seeing your side of things.

So next question-- how do you know when you trust someone? What would a person have to say or do, or what qualities would they need to demonstrate to you to give you that feeling of "Yeah, I trust this guy"? The reason I'm asking is that once you have this insight, you can communicate it to James. Right now, it's just a nebulous "Not now, but maybe in the future," which doesn't give him anything to work with. Whereas if you say "I need to trust a man in order for this to happen, and for me that means x, y and z need to happen first," then it gives him a clear picture of why you cannot go ahead right now.

I think that would most likely stop him pushing so hard in the way he is doing at the moment.

 

[IndieSolo]

For one, when I even slightly indicate that I might be interested in something like that in the future he pushes for right now, as in calling up a male friend/acquaintance and setting something up that night or that week . . . It's like he's in his own fantasy land, and not paying attention to reality and hearing what I am saying. Super frustrating.

This sounds like an obsession. The fact that you two are so isolated without other friendships adds to the creep factor. You should be very wary. It sounds like things could be moving toward an abusive situation for you. Does he want to keep you in the house all the time, or get suspicious when you go out? Something is off psychologically with him, it seems. Very, very creepy. I wish you could see that (several of us have mentioned it). To say you are just frustrated tells me you are not really seeing clearly. Warning bells should be going off like crazy!

If I were you, I would tell him that he needs to address this obsession in therapy or you will postpone getting married. If he continues to be this much of an uncaring beast, walk away and break it off completely. If you keep backing down and trying to be "understanding," he will run roughshod all over you! If he is this obsessed and oblivious to your concerns now, and you don't stick to your position, he can twist everything around until you become his sex slave! Do you want to find yourself tied up and blindfolded while he brings in strangers to fuck you??? End it for your own good.

What kind of respect do you think he will give you in a month or a year if he can't respect you now? Come on, honey, open your eyes!

 

[Magdlyn]

Well gosh. Six years together and now he's a changed man, pushing to involve you in exploring his bisexual nature.

I've spoken to enough bi men to know that there is a population of guys out there who won't be with a man unless a woman is also present. I find it a kind of cop out, but hey, a fetish is a fetish. They aren't rational.

However! He has no right to be pushing you, a virgin except for him, to accompany him on this journey of sexual discovery. State his desire, yes. Downplay your concerns and lack of desire for meaningless sex with a virtual stranger? NO!

Has he been watching lots of porn? The internet has brought fetishes to many people's minds and bucket lists. It all looks so easy in porn. Two hot guys, one hot woman bringing them together, her hands putting the men's bits together, encouraging them. But honey, porn is porn. Real life is real life. You're not a porn actress.

I'd say if he really wants a guy for meaningless sex, he should start cruising and get a guy and do him. Sheesh.

 

[WhatHappened]

While I love James, is a future possible with him?

A future is always possible, but if he continues to push you into things you're not comfortable with, it will not be a happy future.

I want him to be happy, but not at the expense of my happiness.

And this is as it should be.

Am I opposed to poly, or just the idea/practice or threesomes, moresomes, or both?

That's beside the point. He's pushing and pushing for things you've made it clear you're not comfortable with. I once watched a man push and cajole his wife into a horse ride, when she was clearly terrified of horses. And to my mind, pushing someone into sex is way, way, way beyond that. This is your body, your emotions. For many people, sex touches something in the very heart and soul. There are health concerns.

He's pushing you into something with serious consequences. He's way out of line, and whether your opposition is to polyamory or threesomes in particular isn't a question right now. His behavior and disrespect of your boundaries is.

 

[Beth13]

Whereas if you say "I need to trust a man in order for this to happen, and for me that means x, y and z need to happen first," then it gives him a clear picture of why you cannot go ahead right now.

X. Know them well enough to know what their morals are such as they will not lie, cheat, steal, harm me. Everyone he's brought in so far hve been complete strangers to me. I have customers at work that I know better, and I only have to deal with them in a professional "Hi! Have a nice day," manner. Just because he's spent more than 30 minutes with them, and think's they're okay, doesn't mean I will.

Y. Once the whole getting-to-know-you phase is over, and I feel I can trust that person, then we can work out what's expected if we decide to go through with a relationship, ya know, the whole "Is this a relationship or just a friends with benefits?" etc.

Then maybe Z can happen. Right now, no way.

 

[ManofDiscovery]

X. Know them well enough to know what their morals are such as they will not lie, cheat, steal, harm me.. everyone he's brought in so far are COMPLETE strangers to me. I have customers at work that I know better and I only have to deal with them in a professional 'Hi! Have a nice day!' manner. Just cause he's spent more than 30 minutes and think's their 'ok' doesn't mean I will.

Y. Once the whole getting to know you phase is over, and I feel I can trust that person, then we can work out what's expected if we decide to go through with a relationship, ya know, the whole "Is this a relationship or just a friends with benefits"?

Then maybe Z can happen. Right now, no way.

Okay, excellent. To what extent have you explicitly verbalised this to him?

It's all well and good for posters above who don't understand your situation to label him an "uncaring beast," and encourage you to "open your eyes" (which I find super patronising, btw), but the truth is that none of us know quite what the reality is.

If I'm being generous towards James, I could say that he simply has a bit of a fantasy towards a threesome situation (nothing wrong with that) and he's excited at the possibility of being able to make it a reality. This doesn't mean he doesn't care about you, or that he's a bad person, or that he has the desire to totally disrespect you and run roughshod over every aspect of your life. Of course, he may have that desire, too. We just don't know.

My feeling is that instead of taking the moral high ground and assuming the worst about a person (which is not uncommon for this forum), it's better to go the other way, and give someone the benefit of the doubt. Give Janes the chance to step up to the mark, put his own excitement to one side for a second and show some empathy towards you.

But that can only start when you explicitly communicate what you want, which you did very well in your above response back to me. You can even say to him, "I know you're excited about this, which is fair enough, but I want you to put yourself in my shoes for a second." Then explain the above. If he continues to ignore your fears, then you can tackle that problem at the time. But at least give him chance first to come around to your way of thinking.

 

[Beth13]

If I were you, I would tell him that he needs to address this obsession in therapy or you will postpone getting married. If he continues to be this much of an uncaring beast, walk away and break it off completely. If you keep backing down and trying to be "understanding," he will run roughshod all over you! If he is this obsessed and oblivious to your concerns now, and you don't stick to your position, he can twist everything around until you become his sex slave! Do you want to find yourself tied up and blindfolded while he brings in strangers to fuck you??? End it for your own good.

What kind of respect do you think he will give you in a month or a year if he can't respect you now? Come on, honey, open your eyes!

I have tried to get him to go to a therapist in the past, when he first came out, because he was behaving in a irrational way. He is manic-depressive and was going through a mania/depressed phase then. We did find one he was comfortable with who has experience with alternate lifestyles to see on a one-to-one basis. He said it helped.

The only concern I had with this was that he refused to do any couples therapy (even when the therapist asked). I'm concerned if he's actually telling things like they are, or just his fantasy interpretation of things. I would LOVE to do a couples therapy session just so I could have a unbiased person there to see/hear/interpret things.

I know I am not the best when it comes to verbal communication/expression, but I don't think I'm as bad as he's making me feel I am. He stopped seeing her because we couldn't afford to pay for the sessions. But now that he's gotten a promotion, maybe I can talk him to going back at least once a month. We should be able to afford that.

I don't think he's deliberately being disrespectful I think he just doesn't see what he's doing as disrespectful. I feel if he was made aware that what he's doing was disrespectful he would stop, or correct himself.

I don't think he would go so far as to manipulate me into being a sex slave. He can be manipulative, but not that manipulative. I'm a pretty strong-willed person, for the most part, my close family and loved ones being the only weakness. But even they know I have a limit to what I will tolerate. And when he has pushed for things and I have strongly opposed something, he does back off. My problem is I do not like the fact that he keeps coming back later, after I've calmed down. Makes me feel like I should be on guard or something.

 

[BoringGuy]

If this is your first relationship, you have nothing to compare it to, and this is all you have to base your idea of what is "healthy" or "usual." (I prefer "usual" to "normal.") It can be hard to figure out what to do next, where to go from here, or whether to move on from this relationship.

All I have to say is, you are still young, you have hopefully a long life ahead of you, and now is the time you make choices that you will look back on in 10-20 years and say, "If I had to do it all over again, would I do it the same, or would I do something different?" You will have to live with that. No one else will.

I'm not sure if this helps you, but maybe it will help someone reading or lurking.