Pondering about the meanings of different concepts in relationships

starlight1

starlight1

Active member
I wrote a thread a little while back about meeting metamours, and I was thinking a lot about my assumptions in relationships and life, and why I have them. Also was reading again more than two, and these forums which made me question a lot of things again.

My questions I am pondering and wanted to start an intellectual discussion about is:

1) Is "meeting the family" considered an act of commitment in a relationship, or is it a default social setting?

2) when is compartmentalisation a negative thing in poly relationships?

in my examples, I refer to previous question of not being out as poly to family or social network and so different people won't interact...? Or in another example not having partners meet kids yet, or OSOs who don't interact? Ect...

3) does it mean less intimacy and a less healthy relationship, in your own experience, if there is DADT between partners about OSO's?

4) does compartmentalisation lead to less honesty?

5) can you have "commitment" with compartmentalisation?

6) how do you know when you are in a healthy relationship, when you are constantly challenging social norms?, to me, I seem to put something I don't like in a relationship and rationalise it or explain it away in poly terms that might still be an unhealthy dynamic in the relationship based on the fact I am trying to throw out mono ideals right now. Also I feel not ok with things that I feel I should feel ok with because I am not sure how important it is to the relationship it's self, if it's a societal expectation or something I actually want and I am upset I am not getting it. In this case I am referring to "meeting family" with rocky. And also, about him telling his friends and family about me. Which I am not even sure why I want it, and it may make my life a lot more difficult.

Just so you know these are different assumptions, and questions I hold, that I am trying to challenge, and although I don't state exactly where I stand on each question right now, I will be. I just wanted to jot these down before I forgot. It was a big ahah moment and I wanted to make sure I cemented these pondering a somewhere, and then thought perhaps, challenging these together, could help more than me.
 
Re:
"Is 'meeting the family' considered an act of commitment in a relationship, or is it a default social setting?"
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Maybe it can be both. Or either.

Re:
"When is compartmentalisation a negative thing in poly relationships?"
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It depends on what's being compartmentalized.

As far as being out to friends and family is concerned, I think that's a personal judgment call, there is no one right or wrong answer.

As far as having partners meet the kids, I actually recommend they don't meet the kids, unless said partners are going to be around for a long time.

As far as OSO's are concerned, I generally recommend they interact and do so in a friendly way, but, it is not a requirement.

Re:
"Does it mean less intimacy and a less healthy relationship, in your own experience, if there is DADT between partners about OSO's?"
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Often, but not always.

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"Does compartmentalisation lead to less honesty?"
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Depends on what's being compartmentalized.

Re:
"Can you have 'commitment' with compartmentalisation?"
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Possibly. (I am assuming you mean not being out about poly, or not having OSO's meet, things like that.)

Re:
"How do you know when you are in a healthy relationship, when you are constantly challenging social norms?"
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You really have to use your own best judgment. Society doesn't always know the best way to conduct a relationship.

So, you do want to meet Rocky's family? and you do want him to be out about poly? How does he feel about that?
 
I wouldn't say "meeting the family" is a requirement in a relationship. To me, it seems like it would be part of the "relationship escalator", but that doesn't mean it's necessary. Not all relationships go up that escalator, especially when poly's involved...

I've met S2's kids, ex-wife, and her girlfriend, and his best friend from high school. I've not met his mother or any of his siblings or their offspring and probably never will; even though currently we're "just friends", there would still be too many questions. He did tell most of them that he was seeing someone, when that was still true, but no details.

When Guy and I were in a relationship, no one else in his life even knew I existed as his girlfriend. His second ex-wife and her son knew me as "the woman I met in Massachusetts who has a kid on the autism spectrum and gives me advice." That was all. And Guy was adamant that was all there ever would have been even if the relationship had lasted. He and I are just friends now, not in quotes (it's in quotes with S2 because we're in a weird kind of limbo between friendship and relationship), but he still isn't willing to tell anyone else in his life that I exist.

Despite that, both men made explicit commitments to me. And I didn't consider either relationship to be any less committed because I hadn't met their families, or hadn't met all the members thereof.

I'm with Kevin about not introducing a partner to the kids until you're sure the partner is going to be a long-term part of your and the kids' lives, and I say that about monogamous relationships as well as polyamorous ones.

I would say the only times compartmentalization would be negative is when it is dishonest, or if someone's feeling are hurt by it. And I would say compartmentalization doesn't automatically lead to less honesty--sometimes it leads to more, because it enables you to distance yourself from a situation enough to be comfortable talking about it--but it *can* cause dishonesty if you're deliberately lying or hiding things to maintain those compartments.

DADT, I would say, depends on the people and the specifics of the arrangement. If you have a complete DADT, as in "I don't want to know who you're seeing, when you're seeing them, or anything, just don't talk to me" I would say that would lead to less intimacy and honesty because you're being asked to hide an entire large piece of your life from the person you're sharing your life with. If it's DADT specific to certain things ("Don't tell me when you have sex with him" or "Let me know when you see him but don't tell me what you do or where you go"), that might not be so much of a problem.

The only way to know whether you're in a healthy relationship is to ask yourself if you feel like your relationship is healthy. That's an extremely subjective thing, and your feelings, thoughts, and opinions about the relationship are really the deciding factor.
 
I believe that melting not only family but also friends of your lover is neccesarily to eventually build a serious relationship. In all my serious relationships, I met their parents after six months. My boyfriend has yet to meet my parents but I have met his. We have also met some siblings and friends. I am absolutely opposed to DADT, I think it makes relationship separate from life which is not what I want. Eventually I want to be out to everyone.
 
starlight1 said:
1) Is "meeting the family" considered an act of commitment in a relationship, or is it a default social setting?
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I think it varies. Some people view it as a really big step to meet a lover's parents, a step that signifies things have become "serious." I guess that would depend on the lover - do they look at it as a special thing to do, so they only introduce their parents to people they consider "worthy" of the occasion? Do the parents live far away, necessitating a big trip to introduce them to someone? Or are they more casual about it? Some people live near their parents and involve themselves with family stuff quite regularly, so they bring dates and lovers to family things regularly. My boss says she has a brother who brings a different girlfriend to every holiday thing.

So, basically, I think it varies according to the people involved, their lifestyles, and how close they are with family, and how formal or relaxed they are about such things.

starlight1 said:
2) when is compartmentalisation a negative thing in poly relationships?
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Again, I think the answer is "it depends." It depends on the people involved, what is being compartmentalized, and their attitudes toward such compartmentalization. I generally don't think in terms of negative and positive. I think in terms of healthy/not healthy or satisfying/not satisfying, and things like that. I think that, for something to be considered detrimental to a person, whether mono or poly, it would have to be something that makes it an unhealthy relationship where, for example, they aren't feeling valued, respected, or heard.

starlight1 said:
3) does it mean less intimacy and a less healthy relationship, in your own experience, if there is DADT between partners about OSO's?
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Again, I think it depends. It isn't the parameters of a relationship that make it healthy or not, necessarily - it is the people and how they treat each other. Some people don't want all their relationships to be deeply intimate.

starlight1 said:
4) does compartmentalisation lead to less honesty?
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I think, again, it depends on what is being compartmentalized. If you're referring specifically to DADT policies, I think one can leave out information without needing to fib. Even without DADT, there are many things in a relationship that are only need be communicated on a "need to know" basis.

starlight1 said:
5) can you have "commitment" with compartmentalisation?
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Yes, of course. There are many things we can commit to in relationships.

starlight1 said:
6) how do you know when you are in a healthy relationship, when you are constantly challenging social norms?
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You ask yourself: Do I feel respected? Do I feel valued? Do I feel safe enough to be myself around this other person? Are my concerns heard and considered? Am I asked for my input on important issues that would affect me? Does my relationship stimulate feelings of satisfaction, joy, and inspiration or am I often walking on eggshells around this person, dreading certain reactions, or feeling like I'm doing something wrong? Am I excited and happy to see this person? Do I feel good about myself when I am not with this person?

I would ask myself these questions about any relationship, poly or mono, romantic or platonic.
 
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies. I take awhile to process things, and I read, re read, and see how the information sits with me, before I reply. I just wanted to give a quick heads up that I have read through the current replies and am mulling it all over. Thank you.
 
kdt26417 said:
Re:


Maybe it can be both. Or either.

Re:


It depends on what's being compartmentalized.

As far as being out to friends and family is concerned, I think that's a personal judgment call, there is no one right or wrong answer.

As far as having partners meet the kids, I actually recommend they don't meet the kids, unless said partners are going to be around for a long time.

As far as OSO's are concerned, I generally recommend they interact and do so in a friendly way, but, it is not a requirement.

Re:


Often, but not always.

Re:


Depends on what's being compartmentalized.

Re:


Possibly. (I am assuming you mean not being out about poly, or not having OSO's meet, things like that.)

Re:


You really have to use your own best judgment. Society doesn't always know the best way to conduct a relationship.

So, you do want to meet Rocky's family? and you do want him to be out about poly? How does he feel about that?
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Hey Kdt,
Ok finally replying sorry for delay, I got sidetracked with life and sorting this out.

I don't know if I want him to be out about poly, so much as I want him to acknowledge I am part of his life. I want to be openly called his girlfriend, and be able to stop by his new home, which entails meeting his sister since he just moved in with his sister in a home they bought together and are paying the mortgage over ten years. Basically I want to have he right of anyone else in his life that is important to him, to stop by his house and hang out, and to bring him soup if he's sick. To help him out if he needed anything vice versa. I feel like a secret girlfriend and that's no real fun. It lacks respect. So that's what I want worked on, not the poly part. Although it is all a it tied in. And mostly because we do so much together and he's hiding things from his family close friends when he sees me so often, trips away, can't go out with friends sometimes because of plans with me. He's good at managing conversations this way, but I am so honest in my own life, that it wears on me to know he is needing to relate in a way that is hard for me. It doesn't sit well with me inside myself to know he lies by omission. Maybe this is an adult thing I haven't learned very well because of so much social service involvement, and doctors/therapists. I am learning it's ok and not a lying person to not share everything. Also like you being previously Mormon I used to do what you did and confess sins /lies secrets, so it's just weird for me to have parts of myself that aren't included and for him to do the same to me. It's not nessecarily him being untruthful or liar, but this is how I view it because of my own past and social identity of total honesty.

We just spoke about this last night as my need for honesty was borderline codependent with him, and before poly I had no parts of myself he didn't know. Now I have parts of my personality he doesn't know, and isnt part of And That Is Ok! It doesn't nessecarily mean I am not truthful but that I don't need to share every tiny detail.
 
Norwegianpoly said:
I believe that melting not only family but also friends of your lover is neccesarily to eventually build a serious relationship. In all my serious relationships, I met their parents after six months. My boyfriend has yet to meet my parents but I have met his. We have also met some siblings and friends. I am absolutely opposed to DADT, I think it makes relationship separate from life which is not what I want. Eventually I want to be out to everyone.
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I can see how this would be important to someone who wants to be put to everyone. But like rocky I can't be out to everyone or I could lose contact with my kids. Sometimes legal issues take precedence. In his case he could lose his family(ostracised) , social network from family, and also his business potential to take over the family business. These are real factors, so although the I want to be acknowledged about being his GF I don't need him to be open about poly right now because it could very much hurt those things in his life. I don't want to be the cause of that hurt.
 
nycindie said:
I think it varies. Some people view it as a really big step to meet a lover's parents, a step that signifies things have become "serious." I guess that would depend on the lover - do they look at it as a special thing to do, so they only introduce their parents to people they consider "worthy" of the occasion? Do the parents live far away, necessitating a big trip to introduce them to someone? Or are they more casual about it? Some people live near their parents and involve themselves with family stuff quite regularly, so they bring dates and lovers to family things regularly. My boss says she has a brother who brings a different girlfriend to every holiday thing.

So, basically, I think it varies according to the people involved, their lifestyles, and how close they are with family, and how formal or relaxed they are about such things.


Again, I think the answer is "it depends." It depends on the people involved, what is being compartmentalized, and their attitudes toward such compartmentalization. I generally don't think in terms of negative and positive. I think in terms of healthy/not healthy or satisfying/not satisfying, and things like that. I think that, for something to be considered detrimental to a person, whether mono or poly, it would have to be something that makes it an unhealthy relationship where, for example, they aren't feeling valued, respected, or heard.


Again, I think it depends. It isn't the parameters of a relationship that make it healthy or not, necessarily - it is the people and how they treat each other. Some people don't want all their relationships to be deeply intimate.


I think, again, it depends on what is being compartmentalized. If you're referring specifically to DADT policies, I think one can leave out information without needing to fib. Even without DADT, there are many things in a relationship that are only need be communicated on a "need to know" basis.


Yes, of course. There are many things we can commit to in relationships.


You ask yourself: Do I feel respected? Do I feel valued? Do I feel safe enough to be myself around this other person? Are my concerns heard and considered? Am I asked for my input on important issues that would affect me? Does my relationship stimulate feelings of satisfaction, joy, and inspiration or am I often walking on eggshells around this person, dreading certain reactions, or feeling like I'm doing something wrong? Am I excited and happy to see this person? Do I feel good about myself when I am not with this person?

I would ask myself these questions about any relationship, poly or mono, romantic or platonic.
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For both of us, meeting family is a big deal. For me because they live halfway around the world and would take a lot of travel and time money to do. But also because I haven't introduced many people to family. Just ex husband really.

For him, he's never introduced anyone, and it is big deal in his culture, when his culture still practices arranged marriages. His mother and father are married in an arranged marriage. So there's also overtones of being off the table to that religious practice and telling his family he doesn't need them pushing or setting women up to him because he is with X. Or for example, putting me in his phone as a name instead of a number, so his family doesn't accidentally find out about me. Or being able to pick up the phone when around family if i were in an emergency whole around family. One time last year I couldn't get ahold of him when I fell down the stairs and got shipped to Accident and emergency for a whole day because he was with family and didn't pick up his phone or voice mail. So, there's various practical reasons for this when he lives so close and interacts so closely with his family.
So although meeting family isn't a priority for me because I am aware it will mean I have to then communicate regularly with these people too and their expectations lol, it can be unhealthy dynamic when it impacts negatively on our communication and if I find out he places their priorities over me when we previously arranged something. This happened again fairly recently, when he wanted to help family with shop, and he notified me last minute to change prearranged date plans. We compromised to meet halfway, but to say I was annoyed was an understatement. So it's a lot more about how compartmentalisation affects how he relates to me, and promises he makes. And I have to wonder, does his family feel the same way? Broken promises where he changes last minute to come see me? It's possible it goes both ways and has nothing to do with me meeting or them knowing me, and more about how he treats agreements promises and arrangements.

I added all your questions to my journal to give myself a barometer to work on. I think I grew up learning it was ok to treat those close to you badly, (from both parents) so this gives me a practical way to gauge my friendships and relationships and measure what I feel and thinks, and also to ask Rocky the same things about me. I hope he feels good and joyful and or walking on eggshells with me, like I do with him, we both bring a lot of happiness, even when I am sad, there are moments of great joy. I would say the good definitely outweigh any small things, and neither one of us are perfect, but we are. Dry happy together on average and we always bring out the best in each other and challenge ea h other to be the best version of ourselves. He has helped em realise I am strong and capable loving and happy all on my own with out him, ironically by standing up to his own boundaries, and now I am doing the same for him. I like where we are headed. :)
 
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starlight1 said:
I can see how this would be important to someone who wants to be put to everyone. But like rocky I can't be out to everyone or I could lose contact with my kids. Sometimes legal issues take precedence. In his case he could lose his family(ostracised) , social network from family, and also his business potential to take over the family business. These are real factors, so although the I want to be acknowledged about being his GF I don't need him to be open about poly right now because it could very much hurt those things in his life. I don't want to be the cause of that hurt.
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We are not out to everyone yet. For instance, we are not out to Ns mum. But it is still important that I have met her. I am known as his girlfriend and when I visit his family I take my wedding ring off. It is not ideal but I believe him when he says it could be difficult or/and dangerous for him to be completely open there. The Turkish countryside is beautiful and charming but it is not neccessary an easy place to be a little different or gay, let alone mfm poly. I know he is very scared to loose his mum and since I have met her, I can understand his concerns (she had trouble even relating to me as a foreigner). In general, I think I can not ask him to be more open before I myself am more open in my life. I have to show him how.
 
kdt26417 said:
Re (from starlight1):


What's stopping him from doing this?
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I can't get him to answer that succinctly. Vaguely, I understand it as his best friends disapproval, loss of family approval and or family all together..., and possibility of not working In Family shop/taking it over.

This is because I am white, non Hindi, divorced, have kids.

That's even before we get to poly...
 
Wow, his family (and friends) are strict.
 
1) Is "meeting the family" considered an act of commitment in a relationship, or is it a default social setting?

I believe it is a form of commitment, I would not seejust have any anyone meet my family. Id have to be pretty serious about them

2) when is compartmentalisation a negative thing in poly relationships?

I think it's only negative to people who want inclusion. Both of my relationships are separate and everyone is happy about it

3) does it mean less intimacy and a less healthy relationship, in your own experience, if there is DADT between partners about OSO's?

Well the issue again is fast guarantees inclusion. And could even mean that the partner can't even have sleepovers in situations where the people involved are married. Dadt would mean that you would not be included in your partner's home life at all.

4) does compartmentalisation lead to less honesty? Not necessarily, definitely less communication

5) can you have "commitment" with compartmentalisation? I have two primary partners, I live with both.

6) how do you know when you are in a healthy relationship, when you are constantly challenging social norms?, to me, I seem to put something I don't like in a relationship and rationalise it or explain it away in poly terms that might still be an unhealthy dynamic in the relationship based on the fact I am trying to throw out mono ideals right now. Also I feel not ok with things that I feel I should feel ok with because I am not sure how important it is to the relationship it's self, if it's a societal expectation or something I actually want and I am upset I am not getting it. In this case I am referring to "meeting family" with rocky. And also, about him telling his friends and family about me. Which I am not even sure why I want it, and it may make my life a lot more difficult.


Healthy is when you are happy and getting your needs met
 
kdt26417 said:
Wow, his family (and friends) are strict.
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No they aren't he just perceives them that way, and he doesn't let them decide if they want to meet me, he makes the decisions for those people by himself.

This is simply a matter of personal respect for me now, I have told him my boundaries on here, my needs now :

1) to be openly acknowledged as either friend or gf to friends or family.
2) to be added as a name on his phone
3) to be allowed around his house.

The way he is treating me with these three things is ridiculous, he has known me for a year and a half. If he doesn't want to introduce me as gf, fine, then we change the relationship shape and introduce me as friend, but to hide me all the time is selfish and self serving, and I won't be party to it any longer. It's like cheating to me.

How would he feel is the tables were turned? if he after previously being allowed in my life in all ways suddenly didn't allow him in mine??? Would he feel rejected and less than? I am not less than and need to be treated like he would any other human being, with decency and consideration of my needs. These are needs.

So far since I told him, only of those have been ticked off, and that's the phone number. But I don't have proof yet, so I just have his word, which isn't going anywhere. That's why I am giving him the deadline if when I leave.
 
I don't know if you know this but my father is from Pakistan so I am quite accustomed to South Asian culture. I speak Hindi. I am going to be truthful about what I see here.

I think he is doing the "old chestnut" of enjoying girlfriends and premarital sexual relations until he finds the person he will ultimately settle with. That's someone who meets the cultural and religious expectations for a spouse.

Men and women do not socialize in the way that we do in the West so you hanging out at his as a friend will be viewed the same as you having sex with him. Prohibited. Many of the older generation don't even understand how a man and a woman could bond platonically. They have nothing in common! What would you small talk about?!

I'd even consider the possibility that he may be engaged to someone else. That happens all the time, unfortunately. And the Western partner has no idea until it is too late. The worse thing about it is that some of the people who do this aren't forced into behaving that way. They want the traditional marriage, they subscribe to the same values as their family. They just want to have their cake and eat it. They'd never consider settling with a Western person. Even if their families were okay with it. And even if they were like my father - white but Pakistani. I've seen it a lot.
 
Your post rings a lot of truth to me.

It would also make sense of why he had visions of moving away to America or France with me. So he wouldn't have to be controlled by his family.

It would also make sense of why he wouldn't want me to meet his sister. What if I give her dangerous poly ideas? Or western ideas? Or worse, they don't get married in the family tradition, because she knows me....

Thank you for your insight mightymax. I will be talking to him Skype tonight about this subject.

Why do you call it the old chestnut?
 
starlight1 said:
Your post rings a lot of truth to me.

It would also make sense of why he had visions of moving away to America or France with me. So he wouldn't have to be controlled by his family.

It would also make sense of why he wouldn't want me to meet his sister. What if I give her dangerous poly ideas? Or western ideas? Or worse, they don't get married in the family tradition, because she knows me....

Thank you for your insight mightymax. I will be talking to him Skype tonight about this subject.

Why do you call it the old chestnut?
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Because it's a commonly done thing amongst people who are part of more than one culture/religion. I've even heard of it as being present in the black American community: a guy fucks around with white girls in HS but would only ever settle with a black woman. My black friends have claimed to have similar treatment from white people. They like a taste of the "exotic" but they don't really want to have "brown babies", so there will always be a ceiling to the relationship.
 
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