Question: Strange wedding circumstances..

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Noctifer

New member
Hi everyone! It is great to be on this forum (just added my introduction to the proper thread).. I hope that someone can suggest a solution for a bit of a strange situation I find myself in..
[EDIT] (I am in Oregon, US)

I will skip past the story introductions (they're the intro thread) and start with the questions... then we can go to the details as to why I am asking what may otherwise seem like a routine question I can just google. (I've tried, I promise, and I've been reading up on poly relationships for years.. the technical applications are proving elusive however)

Question 1: How can one have a wedding ceremony without the priest needing a wedding certificate / no certificate generated, while still keeping all the external trappings of a regular wedding (not handfasting) -- [EDIT] ie. "put on a wedding show for SO's family without the real paperwork" (but with us taking our vows seriously of course and long term, minus the 'only one' part)

Question 2: If one is in a poly marriage and one member is getting an immigration visa through it, how deeply do people get investigated? (ie. how do you explain the three people living there to immigration's satisfaction / do people outside the 'official' couple get grilled about them / does facebook and friend's facebook's posts get checked.. what are the big things to worry about?)

Question 3: I've heard in a poly marriage one should approach the legalities via contract law instead - where could I get details on how to make sure everyone is actually getting the full visitation rights for hospitals, division of money (aside from insurance obviously, not looking to fraud anything), etc etc

And the reasons for the questions probably already became self-evident. Me and my initial partner have fallen in love with another woman, but she won't be able to stay in the country for more than a couple of years unless I marry her. My initial partner's family however is very Christian so we need to show them a good ceremony before we do anything else (before the legalized wedding) so that we don't get swamped with congratulations mid-visa-checks. And throughout I'd want to make sure neither is getting shafted by the arrangement legally / monetarily (especially the one making the sacrifice, if she makes it), no laws actually get broken (spiritual rituals are not covered under the law far as I know, it would be a marriage of love not just for a visa).. and of course we don't get found out resulting in.. well, bad things happening. I think a lot poly people live under the ever-present thread of 'found out = bad things happening', especially those with kids..

This isn't an emergency, this just me feeling out what's there right now. My castle is visible in the clouds, now I'm working on the foundation. And if any of these answers are obvious quick links are totally appreciated to them, or names of books that cover them.. etc

Thoughts? Please?
 
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I'm unsure what you're asking in question 1. Do you want to know how to arrange something that looks like a wedding but without the whole legal marriage bit attached? i.e. you want to put on a show for initial GF's family while still leaving yourself legally free to marry new GF. Is that correct?

Edit: It would also be useful to tell us which part of the world you're in, as laws vary from country to country and state to state.
 
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Emm said:
I'm unsure what you're asking in question 1. Do you want to know how to arrange something that looks like a wedding but without the whole legal marriage bit attached? i.e. you want to put on a show for initial GF's family while still leaving yourself legally free to marry new GF. Is that correct?
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Thank you so much for the reply! Yes, that's pretty much exactly it, you nailed it!

I've started doing some research and it all indicates that the priest expects to fill out the marriage certificate paperwork or, if not, to have it already filled out and handed to him before the ceremony. I suspect maybe a UU priest may be more sympathetic but don't know if there would be wiggle-room anyway. And her family may want to push for marriage by one of the more traditional branches of Christianity.

Emm said:
Edit: It would also be useful to tell us which part of the world you're in, as laws vary from country to country and state to state.
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I'll update that asap in the initial post (I think I can still edit it) - I'm in Oregon :)
 
It might be worth looking at commitment ceremonies rather than trying to fake a religious wedding. It sounds to me as if you're either asking a priest to pretend to marry you with the deliberate intent to deceive friends and family, or hoping that he'll go ahead with the ceremony even though you don't have a marriage certificate ("they said it was in the mail, honest"). Both options sound as dodgy as hell to me, if not flat-out fraudulent.
 
Emm said:
It might be worth looking at commitment ceremonies rather than trying to fake a religious wedding. It sounds to me as if you're either asking a priest to pretend to marry you with the deliberate intent to deceive friends and family, or hoping that he'll go ahead with the ceremony even though you don't have a marriage certificate ("they said it was in the mail, honest"). Both options sound as dodgy as hell to me, if not flat-out fraudulent.
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Mmm I hear what you're saying though I have to respectfully disagree. My view on a 'religious wedding' is based on the idea of personal spirituality (my connection to someone is between me and them) religious teachings (give unto Caesar what is Caesar's), and the idea of oaths (if I swear myself to someone I am going to keep all my promises no matter the paperwork).

I am not talking about a 'sham' in the sense that it wouldn't be a real marriage - if that were the case I wouldn't worry about any of this and just marry the one who needs the legal paperwork. I am talking about an actual marriage, under the eyes of God, honored as such to the full extent of such vows as we take on - while dealing with the hurdles of being poly and having to work within a legal system.

And I am not talking about any form of fraud - I am specifically trying to avoid any form of fraud by not doing a marriage-divorce option, not wanting to have two marriage legal contracts (very illegal everywhere), and I am not implying I would try to 'trick' a priest.

As far as Question 1 is concerned I thought that would be the easy one of the three, I can't be the first poly person that has to keep a face up for the family of everyone in the relationship who isn't out of the closet? This doesn't bode well for Questions 2 or 3...
 
Ok, I misunderstood the part about Initial GF's family being very religious to mean that you had to (for want of a better term) trick them into thinking you were legally married to her.
 
First of all I'd check the local laws considering poly. In some states it is illegal to be in another relationship when married to one person, it is in some legislations considered bigamy. In other legislations, even an unofficial marriage ceremony with a third person is illegal and considered bigamy. So very well you might be breaking the laws with all this. I am not familiar with Oregon laws, but it should be easy enough to find out.

Secondly, what I know about the US immigration is that it is very strict. I suspect they really do check in with friends and family members. I seriously doubt that you can go through with all you intend to.
 
Emm said:
Ok, I misunderstood the part about Initial GF's family being very religious to mean that you had to (for want of a better term) trick them into thinking you were legally married to her.
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Mmmm I have to admit you are right there - it does somewhat include that I'm afraid, that part is a bit emotionally fraudulent. I had misunderstood, I thought you had meant legally or toward the priest.

Financially everything would be divided equally between both of them if anything happen to me, I'd be doing the power of attorney things with both of them, the whole GOTH plan would be in place, and for all practical purposes they'd have as equal benefits as I could get them. Spiritually I'd be with both equally. Both would have full awareness of what this meant, risks, dangers as we know them. But you are right. We would be tricking her family into thinking the legal contract was different then they expected (though this should not be affecting their own lives in any way, nor obligate them in any way). That may be morally questionable though I'm personally ok with that.

In a perfect world we wouldn't have to and it would be just up to us (as consenting adults), but it is not a perfect world and I don't want her to lose her family over being poly. If she chose to come out of the closet in the future to them that would of course be up to her.

All in all though we will discuss all the moralities involved together if we get to the point where this is what are doing, happy to talk them over with a priest when it comes to that.. I am really just more curious about the technical fine-point details right now, and any resources that may adddress them?
 
Resources-wise, I would suggest consulting a lawyer, preferably one with experience in immigration law, to find out what would be required for US Immigration to consider your marriage something legitimate and binding, and not something for the sole purpose of her obtaining a green card.

Hubby and I have a friend who was in a green-card marriage. He and his husband had to jump through a zillion hoops to get approved, and that was a monogamous marriage. (We're in Massachusetts; same-sex marriage has been legal here for quite a while now.) Their marriage also completely failed; they fought constantly and split up as soon as they'd been married long enough for the husband to legally stay in the US.

As for the getting married by a priest without paperwork being filed issue, talk to a priest or minister. They're the only ones who can answer your question about how that might work.
 
Can she not get the green card by herself by some other merit?
Not going to touch much on the very Christian family needing a dog & pony show, other than you aren't going to win.

Edit |

Intro thread doesn't state how long you've been with whom.
You refer to the gf needing a visa as "quite possibly our unicorn".
Why are you concerned about wedding circumstances?

It's more than just asking a question of a priest. It involves counseling etc.
I think "you can't always get what you want", applies to her Christian family. Is your initial girlfriend willing to possibly screw up family ties because of this.
 
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Noctifer said:
My initial partner's family however is very Christian so we need to show them a good ceremony before we do anything else (before the legalized wedding) so that we don't get swamped with congratulations mid-visa-checks.
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Anyone who is under the emotional and social influence of her family to the extent that she needs to fabricate a show of a wedding ceremony of any kind is not ready to be married.

Also wanted to mention that you're using "priest" and "minister" interchangeably and they are two very different things. "Priest" implies that your intended is Catholic or Episcopal and those two insitutions are very traditional and have strict requirements for prospective married couples. A Catholic priest will not perform a wedding ceremony outside a Catholic church, for starters. There are classes to take and sacraments to accept - all not to be taken lightly for the show of it. If you're not seriously looking to enter into a Catholic covenant with a Catholic God in the sacrament of marriage, you are committing fraud, plain and simple.
I say this, not as a Catholic myself (am Jewish, actually) but as a person who respects religious institutions. Anybody who seeks the blessing and sanctity of a religious institution for the show of it is committing a seriously fraudulant act. Anyone who feels the need to put on a show for family reasons is nowhere near ready to enter into the serious commitment of marriage.

The green card concerns are a different kettle of fish. Yes, you're defruading the US government if you and she are not legally married and yes, extensive investgations are part of the process.

Why do you need to marry either one?
 
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Thank you everyone for your replies, I will have to think a lot about them and see what I can do. Some of the same questions comments came up a few times so I'll address them a little here, just as notes, but I'll go ahead and look more into all this on my own.

Not ready to be married because of meeting her family's beliefs - I suspect that we are not the first people to have to be in the closet with our life style in some way and have to put on a show to accommodate family in some way. Perhaps we are though, who knows. We aren't ready to step out-and-proud into the streets, and I don't know why that really affects how we feel or act toward each other, we seem to have been fine for the past year and a half - and we are not each other's first relationship.

As for breaking the law with marriage since bigamy is illegal - the big out and out law is not having two marriage contracts, it causes a mess in the insurance paperwork and gets unintended tax benefits. I won't. The cohabitation and adultery laws aren't in effect in Oregon, checked. The ideal laws of don't have two marriage ceremonies and such apply equally to any form of marriage or hand-fasting between poly individuals, just as a ceremony between same-sex couples was illegal throughout the country until recently. When a government starts interfering with private relationships and spiritual matters it is overstepping, and I know for sure we're not the first to try and live by our beliefs anyway. If you are happy not having a religious ceremony in your own triangles or poly-relationships I have no problem with that, enjoy.

As for defrauding the US government - we are talking about one single legal marriage, based on love, getting absolutely no more government enabled benefits for anyone then would happen if I weren't dating another woman at the same time. The only differences between the two situations is one extra ceremony and that there will be three people cuddling in a bed instead of two. I am not setting out to break the tax code, or do a marriage of convenience, or anything else.

@Memorandum - there is only one other option that I've seen in immigration law, being a person of 'great benefit'. We'll be trying for that too, she'll need to go all the way through a Masters to get it and then do something of significant impact recognized by her peers. The big danger with that is that the government can at any point during her studies worry that she is an over-stay risk and kick her out, at which point she can't get back in. Nothing else that I could find, I've looked.. :(

@KC43 - thank you, you're quite right, I'll start saving up for a lawyer and consult with them, see where all this goes. And I'll see about talking with a minister too (sorry @HappilyFallenAngel, I hadn't known only Catholics had priests and I was using the term wrong - I have been practicing my faith personally and outside of religious institutions and had not realized there was a difference there)

This all may not be possible, making this very disheartening.. Thank you all for the replies, I'll see what we can do. I will hate to leave this country and move elsewhere if we are not able to (where we can all have citizenship and be together off the radar), but we do really want to be together so.. anyway, we'll see where it goes. Thanks.
 
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Noctifer, I can see why people in poly relationships would want to challenge marriage laws in the interest of equal legal and social recognition, but why seek the blessing of religious institutions inside of which you cannot be forthright about the marriage? Other than seeking (dubiously helpful) family approval, what purpose does a religious figure serve? Many people (including many spiritual leaders) besides clerics in organized religion can perform wedding ceremonies. Pushing for legalized marriage equality has my full support but dishonestly using a religious institution in the process doesn't seem like a solid foundation for a long lasting relationship of any kind.
 
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HappilyFallenAngel said:
Noctifer, I can see why people in poly relationships would want to challenge marriage laws in the interest of equal legal and social recognition, but why seek the blessing of religious institutions inside of which you cannot be forthright about the marriage? Other than seeking (dubiously helpful) family approval, what purpose does a religious figure serve? Many people (including many spiritual leaders) besides clerics in organized religion can perform wedding ceremonies. Pushing for legalized marriage equality has my full support but dishonestly using a religious institution in the process doesn't seem like a solid foundation for a long lasting relationship of any kind.
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Well, there are two or three things involved in that for us personally. Though I should say I am not interested in fighting the big fight and challenging actual marriage laws - I agree with it, I'll donate money to it, but we just really want to live our lives as best we can.

So the first thing is that she is certainly Christian. I am more spiritual, but she is Christian, and has been dreaming about 'the big wedding', fantasizing about her gown, and would like to have the spiritual bonds sanctified between us. The paperwork isn't that important to her, the vows are.

Secondly, she does love her family. They were very unhappy that she moved in with me before marriage to begin with - to have her stay with me for 7+ years unwed.. it will drive a wedge between them. I only have one parent, I don't want her to lose her whole family because of me. I don't need anything from them, I can support her on my own and she can support herself, but this will be a point that will get more and more tense. And they are very Christian so a handfasting ceremony would be even worse for them then 'living in sin'

And lastly there is a certain amount of fairness involved. I've met her first. We didn't expect to fall in love with this other girl. To not marry her first as she'd imagined, with the wedding she expected.. even if ok with it, even if she had to constantly try and explain for 7+ years to her family why were were not married (lying), it would drive a wedge between all of us that would just keep growing.
 
Skipping over the whole wedding part (lets just say I am convinced), does anyone have any thoughts or experience with the other two questions?
 
Hi Noctifer,

If you want a traditional wedding without the certificate, you'll have to get the consent of the priest performing the ceremony. In any conservative church, the priest probably isn't allowed to do that, although a Unitarian Universalist minister might be able to do it for you.

I have no idea how closely immigration will examine your setup, and I don't know what immigration's rules are as far as what is and isn't allowed.

As far as legalities go, you should probably consult a lawyer. You'll probably need powers of attorney drawn up, wills, and living wills ... and other things as well, which a lawyer could advise you on.

I'm afraid my expertise is rather limited, but that's my best attempt at answering your questions.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
kdt26417 said:
Hi Noctifer,

If you want a traditional wedding without the certificate, you'll have to get the consent of the priest performing the ceremony. In any conservative church, the priest probably isn't allowed to do that, although a Unitarian Universalist minister might be able to do it for you.

I have no idea how closely immigration will examine your setup, and I don't know what immigration's rules are as far as what is and isn't allowed.

As far as legalities go, you should probably consult a lawyer. You'll probably need powers of attorney drawn up, wills, and living wills ... and other things as well, which a lawyer could advise you on.

I'm afraid my expertise is rather limited, but that's my best attempt at answering your questions.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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Thank you so much kdt26417! Really appreciate this, thank you - it sounds like UU may be the way to go if we do this. I will have to look into that for my area and start getting their advice - along with a lawyer of course.
 
I am not an expert, but my initial thought is that more that you try to make the religious-not legal marriage "look" legitimate to (her) family the more likely it is that the legal-marriage-not-for-convenience is going to not pass immigration standards. For instance, do they expect her to change her name? Put an announcement in the local paper? In Pennsylvania you can get a license (sometimes called an "Amish license" - although you don't need to be Amish to get one) and marry yourselves, legally, with no official required. But if they wouldn't go for a hand-fasting then they probably wouldn't buy a do-it-yourself wedding either (after which you could conveniently forget to sign the certificate). I do know of many people who get quietly married at the courthouse and then have their big religious ceremony, officiated by a religious official at a later date - but I'm pretty sure the priest/minister would want to see the marriage certificate.

My (not very informed) impression, is that immigration officials DO look closely at anything that may indicate that the marriage is a sham; i.e. only for the purposes of getting a green card. That they would, almost certainly, ask friends/family about your circumstances. As well as looking at your facebook posts, looking at your financial statements, investigating other household members, etc.

I think you could probably pull off one or the other, but not both.
 
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JaneQSmythe said:
I am not an expert, but my initial thought is that more that you try to make the religious-not legal marriage "look" legitimate to (her) family the more likely it is that the legal-marriage-not-for-convenience is going to not pass immigration standards. For instance, do they expect her to change her name? Put an announcement in the local paper? In Pennsylvania you can get a license (sometimes called an "Amish license" - although you don't need to be Amish to get one) and marry yourselves, legally, with no official required. But if they wouldn't go for a hand-fasting then they probably wouldn't buy a do-it-yourself wedding either (after which you could conveniently forget to sign the certificate). I do know of many people who get quietly married at the courthouse and then have their big religious ceremony, officiated by a religious official at a later date - but I'm pretty sure the priest/minister would want to see the marriage certificate.

My (not very informed) impression, is that immigration officials DO look closely at anything that may indicate that the marriage is a sham; i.e. only for the purposes of getting a green card. That they would, almost certainly, ask friends/family about your circumstances. As well as looking at your facebook posts, looking at your financial statements, investigating other household members, etc.

I think you could probably pull off one or the other, but not both.
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*sigh* Yea, you may be right. I don't know what we are going to do then.. we'll see what happens and what we can figure out. Very disheartening :(
 
Alas that polyamorous marriage isn't legal. If it was, you wouldn't be in such a quandary.

Definitely talk to a lawyer -- about all of these issues. Don't make any decisions until you've received thorough legal counsel. Seek out the best lawyer you can find.
 
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