relationships in quad

urmila

New member
pitfalls

Before i write about my religion and polyamory, I wold like to talk about the pitfalls, that we have to be careful for a long lasting relationship mentioned my Ms Anita Wagner. and how it applies to us

PITFALL : Lack of Poly Education - All 4 of us have read quite extensively all the information available on net on this subject

PITFALL -- Lack of Basic Intimate Relationship Skills - We have 21 years of married life and the other couple more than 16 years of married life. We can justifiably claim that all of us have that basic skills building of intimate relationship. Also over the last 10 months after living together we have developed intimate relationship, only after which we have have taken the decision, and in the past few weeks, we have openly discussed before fixing the boundaries, and I am glad to say that there was not much of a negotiation was required, since all our views were almost same

PITFALL Falling Victim to the Kid in the Candy Store Syndrome. - this will definitely apply to us, sinnce the decision has not been taken in a hurry and the long gestataion period has ensured that we have not taken the decision based on N R E

PITFALL : Letting Guilt, Fear and Jealousy Get the Best of You - The understanding, trust we have developed over the past year will make sure that these negative feelings will not have any place in our relationship

PITFALL : Failing to get what poly demands of us all - All of us have understood that we have what is required for an enduring relationship, reason being that the relationship is basically built on love and the emotional attachement that has developed over a period.

PITFALL : The Challenges of Poly Parenting - This is not an issue at all with us, as we see it. Our only son is planned to to go to USA for his post graduate studies after his graduation next year and most probabalt will settle down there like his uncle and my cousin has no children

PITFALL : Living in the community and avoiding any negative impact - Sine we will be living in the same building and we are related, we need not go public in our immediate neighborhood and among our friends' circle to avoid this. and it looks quite natural if i go out with my cousin or my husband going out with his wife.


We are quite mature people and we understand that we are not perfect. We do expect some adjustments have to be made as we go along and we cant be very rigid about the boundaries we have set now.
 

urmila

New member
Hinduism and poly

After our New Year day (Ugadi) which we all celebrated with great joy and enthusiasm, son left for coorg to visit his friend, and from there he will be going back to his college, . Now I have got a little free time to write about the decision we had jointly taken. Before that I want to tell about our religion and our religious background.
As I had already mentioned, we are upper cast Hindus and who are quite religious and ritualistic. According to our religion marriages are for life and there is no provision for divorce, even though now legally it is possible to get a divorce as per the Hindu marriage act, which was passed by our parliament after independence. In our religion, marriage is a sacred relationship, a Devine covenant and a sacrament. Marriage is a part of Hindu dharma, which once accepted, should be upheld by both through out their lives. And cannot be dissolved thro’ divorce. Divorce as a concept is alien to Hinduism
.As for as we going against religious sentiments, I have done quite bit of reading on net and based on that I found that:
The Vedas and the Hindu religion itself do not outlaw polygamy or polyandry, meaning we going poly will not be against our religion
This conclusion was based on the fallowing statements from various researchers
A)women loving and accepting two men as husbands at the same time
"The earliest known proof of polyandry comes from Sumer the Harappan civilization ". According to one researcher "the practice of polyandry, known alike to the gods and men, harks back to the age of the Rig-Veda. The Vedas, the Sutras and the Smritis, the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, the Buddhists texts as well as the Jains, Kautilya and the Kamasutra all attest its existence in early India. And the evidences of literature are reinforced by the later iconography and art and by the presence of polyandrous pockets from Tibet in the north right down to Ceylon in the South". The equivocally of the prevalence of polyandry in India in the past, especially when Draupadi got married, is very clear from earlier writings.
Polyandry has been practiced in India and is still practiced by a minority. The popular Hindu epic, Mahabharatha provides a striking example of polyandry, Draupadi, daughter of king of Panchāla being married to five brothers. Vysasa says that the custom of taking more than one husband has existed in the country since time immemorial. It is therefore historically justifiable

Non-fraternal polyandry exists among the Kota; and among the Karvazhi, Pulaya, Muthuvan, and Mannan in Kerala. In 1911 Census of India, E.A. Gait mentions polyandry of the Tibetans, Bhotias, Kanets of Kulu valley, people of state of Bashahr, Thakkars and Megs of Kashmir, Gonds of Central Provinces, Todas and Kurumbas of Nilgiris, Tolkolans of Malabar, Ishavans, Kaniyans and Kammalans of Cochin, Muduvas of Travancore and of Nairs.

As per the researchers: polyandry may be wiped out in India (but may remain in few cases in some isolated pockets) by the end of 20th century or at the end of first quarter of next century. Thus in future, it will remain only in the books, especially as ethnographic material of the past. But they might be proved wrong of the emerging trend of the skewed gender ratio
But in fact, sex-selective abortion in India and the resultant skewed gender ratio might bring back polyandry as an accepted practice in India

B) My husband and cousin accepting both of us as their wives
Rig-Veda certainly permits polygamy though monogamy may have been the rule
Polygamy was rampantly practiced in ancient Hindu society. An address by Bhishma to King Yudhishthira in the Mahabharata, succinctly endorses this fact: "A Brahmana can take three wives. AKshatriya can take two wives. There was one example of polyandry in the ancient Hindu epic, Mahabharata, Draupadi marries the five Pandava brothers. Regarding polygyny, in Ramayana, father of Ram, King Dasharath has three wives, but Ram has pledged himself just one wife.
The Hindu god, Lord Krishna, the 9th incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu had many wives at his kingdom in Dwarka. In the post-Vedic periods, polygamy declined in Hinduism, and is now considered immoral,[9] although it is thought that some sections of Hindu society still practice polygyny, in some areas.

Based on all this and with the intention of making our relationship permanent and to obtain a religious sanctity, we have decided on on our next step
 

alexi

New member
Urmila, very informative write-up indeed. In Hindu Dharma there are no restrictions of any kind and they come under smritis as distinct from sruthis (eternal values). And the beauty of Hinduism is things are very fluid, in that, one can adapt to the required situation of the times we live in and evolve. It is a very dynamic process initiated in your ancient religion or way-of-life.

Alexi
 

urmila

New member
Urmila, very informative write-up indeed. In Hindu Dharma there are no restrictions of any kind and they come under smritis as distinct from sruthis (eternal values). And the beauty of Hinduism is things are very fluid, in that, one can adapt to the required situation of the times we live in and evolve. It is a very dynamic process initiated in your ancient religion or way-of-life.

Alexi

very true Alexi,
Only because of the lack of rigidity in Hindu dharma and the ability to adopt and evolve, based on the requirement of the time has made this ancient religion prosper for such a long time and survived even after the onslaught of external religious forces
 

urmila

New member
Have you all worked out any boundaries? What if one of you gets pregnant?

Alexi

because of the complications i had, during my son's delivery and on the advice of my gyno, i cannot concieve. and as my cousin's wife has some problem because of which, they dont have children. By a miracle, if she becomes pregnant, it will be God;s gift and all 4 of us will be parenting, but legally my cousin will be father and his wife will be mother. Frankly we all hope and pray that to happen, but we all know while that odds are against it
 

alexi

New member
Based on all this and with the intention of making our relationship permanent and to obtain a religious sanctity, we have decided on on our next step

I am a little unclear about this. Can you please elaborate?

Alexi
 

urmila

New member
getting a seal of aproval

I am a little unclear about this. Can you please elaborate?

Alexi
When i wrote that we want to make our relationship permanent and get a religious sanctity is that
we have decided that I get married to my cousin and my husband will get married to cousin’s wife in a religious ceremony according to Hindu rites ( Please click in link for the details http://hinduism.about.com/od/matrimonial1/a/wedding_rituals.htm )
In addition to these rites, tying of a mangalasutra by the groom around the neck of bride is an important part of south Indian marriage. On the wedding day, a yellow thread is prepared by using turmeric paste and is tied around the bride's neck with three knots during the marriage ceremony while the priest recites Vedic hymns and partakes in prayers. (Later, the mangalsutra may be restrung on some auspicious day in the form of a necklace made of gold and black beads strung together on one or two yellow threads or gold chains with an elaborate pendant of gold or diamond. In an arranged marriage, the design of mangalsutra is usually chosen by the groom's family in keeping with their customs.) Since both of us had our mangalasutra with a pendant, it was decided that we will get this modified adding another pendent in the chain signifying our status of having 2 husbands. We have already placed order with the goldsmith and we expect it to be ready by April first week. Another ritual is the groom puts on the toe rings on brides second toe (Wearing of toe rings is practiced in India. It is worn as a symbol of the married state by Hindu women. They are usually made of silver and worn on the second toe of both feet. It is somewhat similar to the western culture where a married woman will be wearing the wedding ring on the 3rd finger of the left hand) We decided to leave the existing rings in place and add one more set during the ceremony(l see attached pics)

Regarding the actual marriage ceremony, we have decided to have a temple wedding in a small town in south Tamilnadu, where we know such marriages are performed. The priest will give us the auspicious day and the time, after studying the horoscopes of the groom and the bride and if we pay the money required for performing ceremony and the wedding lunch for specified number of guests, all the arrangements will be made by them. We only have to take our wedding dresses, mangalasutra and the toe rings
In the second week of April, my husband and my cousin are going to that town and meet the priest and explain that mangalasutras of their wives were snatched away by a pair of youths at knife point, when they were on their early morning walk. Since it was considered as a bad omen the wives are insisting on going thro’ the wedding ceremony again, during which new mangalasutras can be tied around their neck. And request him to fix a single day for both the pairs and informing him that only 4 of us will be coming and requesting him for conduct the marriage ceremony and provide a wedding lunch for about 25 guests, invited by the priest from the local Brahmin community.
We are hoping that the priest will be convinced with this and oblige us, thus providing us the religious sanctity for our second wedding but with different partners. By this we hope to eliminate hierarchy and there won’t be any primary and secondary relationship either. Our poly life will statrt from that day and we will keeping it private, by not revealing it to anybody including my son.

I will narrate very briefly about a few of the boundaries we have set, within which we want to live, in my next letter
:)Urmila
 

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alexi

New member
Innovative and unique

Thank you very much for your post, Urmila. Really it's a grand idea and innovative and unique indeed.

In this I am reminded of the Oneida commune experiment. Or is it the Kerista... I am not very sure.

But the fact you are going through a religious ceremony just about makes commitment to the new relationship imperative.

Keep us posted of the progress.

Best Wishes

Alexi
 

km34

New member
We are hoping that the priest will be convinced with this and oblige us, thus providing us the religious sanctity for our second wedding but with different partners. By this we hope to eliminate hierarchy and there won’t be any primary and secondary relationship either. Our poly life will statrt from that day and we will keeping it private, by not revealing it to anybody including my son.

If you are going to commit yourselves that seriously, why wouldn't you tell your children? I know the culture is vastly different than what I experience in America, but I wouldn't even consider being with someone long term if I couldn't tell at least the people closest to me (kids, parents, siblings). Even though I know it won't make them happy and there could be serious negative responses, if I meet someone who is going to be a serious part of my life (living with me, influencing serious decisions, etc) then my family WILL know.

Is the priest going to KNOW that you are marrying a different spouse than the one you married during your first wedding or is part of the plan to deceive him so that he thinks he is only recommitting you to your current partners? If not, is it generally acceptable to purposefully try to get a priest to perform a ceremony if he doesn't know the full story?

This just seems oddly deceitful and I'm not sure if it's because I am misunderstanding or if it is really the plan.
 

amitabhisgood

New member
Increasing complexity

Read your post about the marriage. Its interesting to note that you have decided to take your relationship beyond current lifetime.

This playing around with mangalsutra stuff is actually increasing complexity in a simple relationship.

Does Hindu religion say that the marriage has to be in temple?

There is also arya samaj who can be contacted and be informed that love marriages are to be performed. Their procedures can be inquired.

Is a designated marriage required?

It seems like some sort of guilt feeling is getting into the relationship and this marriage part is being used as a cover up.
 

amitabhisgood

New member
Is the priest going to KNOW that you are marrying a different spouse than the one you married during your first wedding or is part of the plan to deceive him so that he thinks he is only recommitting you to your current partners? If not, is it generally acceptable to purposefully try to get a priest to perform a ceremony if he doesn't know the full story?

This just seems oddly deceitful and I'm not sure if it's because I am misunderstanding or if it is really the plan.

km34, you understand it correctly.

Urmila - As you are believer of dharma, I will recommend you and others to consider the Karma factor as well. In order to fulfill a personal desire, the sanctity of a priest is being challenged.

Along with your research on polyamory, I will recommend you to read material on quantum sciences and how at quantum level, a lie cannot be masked.
 

km34

New member
km34, you understand it correctly.

Urmila - As you are believer of dharma, I will recommend you and others to consider the Karma factor as well. In order to fulfill a personal desire, the sanctity of a priest is being challenged.

Along with your research on polyamory, I will recommend you to read material on quantum sciences and how at quantum level, a lie cannot be masked.

That was my major concern. I have no qualms about people wanting to commit themselves to a group marriage in a ceremonial fashion, but this plan really seems to besmirch what the ceremony is supposed to stand for.

I'm also wondering - part of the ceremony is the father of the bride giving her to her groom. Are you parents on board with this plan or have you found some way around that too?

Again, after googling Hindu and group marriage the Hindu Marriage Act came up which makes it illegal to have more than one spouse at a time. How do you rationalize that in your plan?

That's all my questions for the moment.
 

urmila

New member
quad marriage

If you are going to commit yourselves that seriously, why wouldn't you tell your children? I know the culture is vastly different than what I experience in America, but I wouldn't even consider being with someone long term if I couldn't tell at least the people closest to me (kids, parents, siblings). Even though I know it won't make them happy and there could be serious negative responses, if I meet someone who is going to be a serious part of my life (living with me, influencing serious decisions, etc) then my family WILL know.

Is the priest going to KNOW that you are marrying a different spouse than the one you married during your first wedding or is part of the plan to deceive him so that he thinks he is only recommitting you to your current partners? If not, is it generally acceptable to purposefully try to get a priest to perform a ceremony if he doesn't know the full story?

This just seems oddly deceitful and I'm not sure if it's because I am misunderstanding or if it is really the plan.

there is only one child that is my 20 year old son who is away from home already and next year he will be in USA, if everything goes on as per his plan, and I am sure he will succeed. Before that he may stay with us for a few weeks at the most. I dont think it is will be fair on our part to burden him with our plan. It will definitely affect him emotionally, psycologically and we dont know how he may react and we don't know how it may affect his plan. Hence we will not be telling him anything about this. Other than that we really dont have any contact with other family members.
polyamory itself will not be acceptable to anybody, let alone the priest. You r correct that it is decietful, But if this deception doesnot harm anybody in any way i dont think that it is a great sin and there is no way we can get a priest who will agree to perform the marriage ritual if he is made aware of the facts
 

urmila

New member
marriage quad

I'm also wondering - part of the ceremony is the father of the bride giving her to her groom. Are you parents on board with this plan or have you found some way around that too?

Again, after googling Hindu and group marriage the Hindu Marriage Act came up which makes it illegal to have more than one spouse at a time. How do you rationalize that in your plan?

That's all my questions for the moment.

You r correct that bride's parents r to give away the bride(kanyadaan) to the groom. As her parents r no more, any elderly couple can adopt her as daughter(not legally, but only for the purpose of doing kanyadaan) and they can perform the kanyadaan and we will be requesting the priest to find a local couple for that.
Yes it is illeagal as per the act, but our second marriage will be a private affair between the four of us and in the eyes of the outside world we will be as we are today, i.e two legally married couples

Does Hindu religion say that the marriage has to be in temple?

There is also arya samaj who can be contacted and be informed that love marriages are to be performed. Their procedures can be inquired.

Is a designated marriage required?

It seems like some sort of guilt feeling is getting into the relationship and this marriage part is being used as a cover up.

marriages need not be in temple, it can be performed anywhere.
It can also be performed in Arya samaj, for that some procedures r there. we will have to give an advance notice and it will be displayed on their notice board. Birth certificates and the adress have to be given and their marriage certificate will be a valid legal document. Because of all this we have ruled this out
I have to concede there is truth in ur statement about the guilt feeling. This is mainly because of me. other three members were not perticular about this
 

km34

New member
Yes it is illeagal as per the act, but our second marriage will be a private affair between the four of us and in the eyes of the outside world we will be as we are today, i.e two legally married couples

But it's NOT private. It's happening in a sacred space (the temple). If you were doing it in your home or in a public area instead of a religious one, it wouldn't seem as inherently wrong to me, but this whole situation gives me the a bad feeling.
 

urmila

New member
But it's NOT private. It's happening in a sacred space (the temple). If you were doing it in your home or in a public area instead of a religious one, it wouldn't seem as inherently wrong to me, but this whole situation gives me the a bad feeling.
It is ur view, but I dont think we r going anything wrong. As i have mentioned earlierm, there r already instances in our mythology woman having more than one husband, and all the husbands having other wives too.
 

km34

New member
It is ur view, but I dont think we r going anything wrong. As i have mentioned earlierm, there r already instances in our mythology woman having more than one husband, and all the husbands having other wives too.

Very true, and I have no problem AT ALL with people have commitment ceremonies so that they can have multiple spouses without breaking the law. I just don't see the point of risking legal issues if someone were to find out. What is the punishment if someone happens to find out that you are married to two people?

My main concern, honestly, is the lying to the priest thing. I think laws preventing multiple spouses are ridiculous since most religions at the most basic level allow it. As long as it's consensual I don't see how any government should dictate who can marry who. But lying to a priest? How do you feel that isn't wrong? You are getting him to perform a ceremony that he may be fundamentally against. Because while you see the examples in history and think that your group marriage is okay (and for the record, I do agree with you there), he may not. He may think the law trumps. He may think that times have changed and those examples don't apply to modern days. How is it okay to not be up front with that MAJOR part of the plan?

I promise I'm not trying to judge you, but isn't truth one of the main disciplines of Hindu? (I'm pulling from my Intro to Religions course my freshman year here so I apologize for any ignorance I have or misusing terms)
 

urmila

New member
marriage quad

Very true, and I have no problem AT ALL with people have commitment ceremonies so that they can have multiple spouses without breaking the law. I just don't see the point of risking legal issues if someone were to find out. What is the punishment if someone happens to find out that you are married to two people?

Thanks km34. I was under the impression tht u r against polyamory itself. But by this msg i understand that is not so and u have issres only with the method we r adopting. Regarding any body finding out about us, I dont know how anybody can find out unless one of us we speak out. To my knowledge, a marriage in a temple is not legally recognised and authorities will not take any cogniscance of it on their own and will act only on a complaint by one of the affected party
my main concern, honestly, is the lying to the priest thing. I think laws preventing multiple spouses are ridiculous since most religions at the most basic level allow it. As long as it's consensual I don't see how any government should dictate who can marry who. But lying to a priest? How do you feel that isn't wrong? You are getting him to perform a ceremony that he may be fundamentally against. Because while you see the examples in history and think that your group marriage is okay (and for the record, I do agree with you there), he may not. He may think the law trumps. He may think that times have changed and those examples don't apply to modern days. How is it okay to not be up front with that MAJOR part of the plan?

I promise I'm not trying to judge you, but isn't truth one of the main disciplines of Hindu? (I'm pulling from my Intro to Religions course my freshman year here so I apologize for any ignorance I have or misusing terms)

We have to do this, the chances of priest performing the marriage, if i he is told the truth is almost nil. I agree truth is a discipline of not just the Hindu religion, but also of all the religions.
We take solace from an instance from Mahabharatha, wherein Lord Krishna(9th incarnation lord Vishnu) trying to convince Dharmaraya to make an "untrue" announcement during the Kurukshetra war, by telling him that if that lie helps the cause which u think is just(we know that dharmaraya refuses and was asked to rephrase an announcement and the Lord make the last part inaudible by blowing his conch, which serves the purpose)
With this we r going ahead without any guilt feeling and with a clear conscience
 
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