Royal Marriages, Titles, Inheritance, Affairs, etc.

FallenAngelina

Well-known member
Given his age and your presumptive age (and mine!) I would grandfather this into the "acceptable discreet liaison" category. It is perhaps difficult for younger people to imagine a time when pretty much all long term married couples did not have divorce as a viable option and instead tacitly agreed to allow (usually the man) to have other loves. Spencer Tracy was married his entire adult life to a woman we don't even remember, while Katherine Hepburn was accepted and even celebrated as his love spouse for decades. Camilla Parker Bowles is a more controversial figure, but she has been known by many as Prince Charles' love spouse all along - and now she is poised to become the Queen of England. Whether one agrees or disagrees that affair love-spouses are ethical, the truth is that this kind of relationship has existed for millennia. It's only recently that we advise people to be "ethical" and separate because they can. Up until very recently, the only viable social and financial option was to remain married and show discretion with one's love spouse. For thousands of years, this has been the most "ethical" and the kindest option to the monogamy dilemma.

So to judge this as a workplace affair is rather off the mark. To infer that the ethical thing is to turn away is to misunderstand the voluminous social history of discreet love spouses living in tandem with legal spouses. Whether the situation is satisfying for the particiapants remains a different question.
 

ref2018

Maid of All Work
Staff member
IIRC, it's in the marriage contract that Camilla will not be titled Queen, but something like Princess Consort, like Prince Albert, Queen Victoria's husband. /hijack

Camilla Parker Bowles...and now she is poised to become the Queen of England.
 

HaloOnFire

Active member
IIRC, it's in the marriage contract that Camilla will not be titled Queen, but something like Princess Consort, like Prince Albert, Queen Victoria's husband. /hijack


/also hijacks


IIRC, only the reigning King can confer the title of Queen Consort. However, in the case of Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, royal protocol dictates that a man who marries a reigning queen, he may only take the title of prince consort—not king consort—though Philip was not officially given the prince consort title.

The title of King Consort for the husband of a reigning queen is rare. Examples are Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, in Scotland and Francis, Duke of Cádiz, in Spain. Antoine of Bourbon-Vendôme in Navarre and Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha in Portugal gained the title king, not king consort, and were co-rulers with their reigning queen wives because of the practice of Jure uxoris. The title of Prince Consort for the husband of a reigning queen is more common. An example is Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, who, upon marrying Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and because of her insistence that he be given a title of his status, became Albert, Prince Consort.


Ok, I am done now. And apologies to the mods for the further hijacking of the thread. This is a favorite topic of mine and I could not resist. :)
 

ref2018

Maid of All Work
Staff member
/also hijacks


IIRC, only the reigning King can confer the title of Queen Consort. However, in the case of Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, royal protocol dictates that a man who marries a reigning queen, he may only take the title of prince consort—not king consort—though Philip was not officially given the prince consort title.

The title of King Consort for the husband of a reigning queen is rare. Examples are Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, in Scotland and Francis, Duke of Cádiz, in Spain. Antoine of Bourbon-Vendôme in Navarre and Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha in Portugal gained the title king, not king consort, and were co-rulers with their reigning queen wives because of the practice of Jure uxoris. The title of Prince Consort for the husband of a reigning queen is more common. An example is Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, who, upon marrying Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and because of her insistence that he be given a title of his status, became Albert, Prince Consort.


Ok, I am done now. And apologies to the mods for the further hijacking of the thread. This is a favorite topic of mine and I could not resist. :)
I apologize to myself and the other mods for further hijacking the thread (this is also a favorite topic of mine (ETA: my current fascination is with Alexandra and Dagmar of Denmark), and we can split it off to another thread in the Fireplace if there is a lot of interest in talking about it), but I googled "will Camilla be called Queen" and basically, the internet says "no". I'm not posting any of the links, since anyone can use Google to find out the same.
 

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Staff member
Interesting subject. It seems that in royalty at least, infidelity is not as simple a matter as people may tend to think. It is my personal position that it's not so simple a matter on the plebeian level either.
 

HaloOnFire

Active member
It seems that in royalty at least, infidelity is not as simple a matter as people may tend to think.


When royalty marries, it is a matter of State. Or, at least it used to be. :)

One of my favorite reactions of a princess (Sophia Dorthea of Celle) being told the news that she had to marry the heir to the Hanoverian dukedom (George Guelph), she threw his diamond encrusted miniature across the room and shouted, "I'll not marry the pig snout!".


No, really, I am done now. :p
 

Evie

Kaitiaki
Monogamy wasn't practiced in NZ pre colonisation. The high ranked of indigenous tribes would use partners for political reasons just as much as Europeans ever did and many alliances meant many wives or husbands. Not sure what it was like in the lower classes.
 

FallenAngelina

Well-known member
I googled "will Camilla be called Queen" and basically, the internet says "no".
Hey, I'm American and to me, a queen is a queen consort is a whatever. She's recognized as the life partner of his heart and all that struggle to match him up with someone more "suitable" just led to utter disaster. The entire western world has changed in the last short few decades and now even royal divorces are viable options to sticking it out, come hell or high water. But the world used to be very much that way not so very long ago.

So Camilla will be a queen consort but she won't be called Queen Camilla? How should I address her? I've seen her wear a tiara, but I guess that's not a crown?
 

HaloOnFire

Active member
So Camilla will be a queen consort but she won't be called Queen Camilla? How should I address her?


Clarence House stated on the occasion of their wedding in 2005 that Camilla would adopt the style of Princess Consort instead of that of a queen,but there is no legal or historical precedent for such a title. "Princess Consort" mirrors the style of Albert, Prince Consort, husband of Queen Victoria. In 2018, Clarence House removed the statement regarding Camilla's proposed style from its official website. In 2020, however, Clarence House confirmed that plans for Camilla to adopt the style of Princess Consort remain unchanged. In other words, she would still be addressed as Your Royal Highness.

There is still enough Pro Diana sentiment in the UK whereby if Charles attempted to have her styled as "Your Majesty", it would be a PR nightmare of epic proportions. Perhaps some of the UK denizens of the forum could enlighten us further. :)
 

ref2018

Maid of All Work
Staff member
So Camilla will be a queen consort but she won't be called Queen Camilla? How should I address her? I've seen her wear a tiara, but I guess that's not a crown?
You don't have to address her at all because as you pointed out, you are an American. But the proper form of address, as i learned when i googled this, is Her/Your Royal Highness The Princess Consort.

And no, a tiara is not a crown. A tiara is a tiara, and a crown is a crown. They are two different things. Just because they are both expensive items that go on the head, doesn't mean they are synonyms.

ETA: Sorry I didn't mean to sound snippy, I wasn't fully awake when I wrote this. A tiara is a light half-circle piece of jewelry for the head, for decorative purposes only, like anyone can wear one (if they can afford it). A crown is like a heavier, full-circle metal thing with precious stones in it, worn for ceremonial purposes by a monarch (or it can be made of paper and given to children at fast food restaurants).


TYL.
 
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ref2018

Maid of All Work
Staff member
Clarence House stated on the occasion of their wedding in 2005 that Camilla would adopt the style of Princess Consort instead of that of a queen,but there is no legal or historical precedent for such a title. "Princess Consort" mirrors the style of Albert, Prince Consort, husband of Queen Victoria. In 2018, Clarence House removed the statement regarding Camilla's proposed style from its official website. In 2020, however, Clarence House confirmed that plans for Camilla to adopt the style of Princess Consort remain unchanged. In other words, she would still be addressed as Your Royal Highness.

There is still enough Pro Diana sentiment in the UK whereby if Charles attempted to have her styled as "Your Majesty", it would be a PR nightmare of epic proportions. Perhaps some of the UK denizens of the forum could enlighten us further. :)


Yabbut, isn't it true that there was also no precedent for Albert being styled Prince Consort? IIRC, Victoria *wanted* to style him as King because she saw him as her equal, but the Peers and Parliament wouldn't accept a lower-ranking German prince as their King, so the compromise was Prince Consort. He was of course in a de facto king role behind the scenes because his wife Victoria wanted it that way, but not to the public.

Was Albert the first ever styled Prince Consort? I think the only other queen regnant of England who was married and whose husband wasn't a King in his own right was Anne, and i don't remember what her sperm donor's title was (she was married and had a ton of pregnancies but is believed to have been a lesbian, hence "sperm donor"), but i feel like it was neither King nor Prince anything.

Goddamm, i hate typing on the tablet virtual keyboard. Time to get out of bed...
 

icesong

Moderator
Staff member
Was Albert the first ever styled Prince Consort? I think the only other queen regnant of England who was married and whose husband wasn't a King in his own right was Anne, and i don't remember what her sperm donor's title was (she was married and had a ton of pregnancies but is believed to have been a lesbian, hence "sperm donor"), but i feel like it was neither King nor Prince anything.
Wasn’t she the one the movie The Favorite was about? (Good movie, if you haven’t seen it. _weird_, but good.)
 

ref2018

Maid of All Work
Staff member
Wasn’t she the one the movie The Favorite was about? (Good movie, if you haven’t seen it. _weird_, but good.)

I had to google it, but yes, that's her. I haven't seen it, nor have I done a lot of reading on the Stuart period, so I wouldn't be able to tell how it matches up with "history", but I'll see if the library has it on DVD before I spend the money to buy or rent it online. The trailer makes it look like it will be good. ETA: Found it and placed a hold request. Will watch this week.
 

HaloOnFire

Active member
Yabbut, isn't it true that there was also no precedent for Albert being styled Prince Consort? IIRC, Victoria *wanted* to style him as King because she saw him as her equal, but the Peers and Parliament wouldn't accept a lower-ranking German prince as their King, so the compromise was Prince Consort. He was of course in a de facto king role behind the scenes because his wife Victoria wanted it that way, but not to the public.



This is correct. And I think Camilla is styled the way she is on account of somewhat the same thing. Public outrage would be too great to overcome. And at baseline, royalty is no different from the rest of us. Survival of the family is paramount.


Was Albert the first ever styled Prince Consort?

Aye. That he was.
 
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