Second date with man in open marriage

M

missmindful

New member
Hi. I don't know if this is the right place to come to seek answers but, my google searches have not given me many answers. I do appreciate the fact that you took the time to read my post and any feedback would be appreciated. (I apologize- it is long winded- I am not concise.

I separated from my husband over two years ago, and have been divorced for one. The last five years I have changed my life, started practicing mindfulness, exercise religiously, and eat a healthy vegetarian diet. I began dating a few months less than a year ago on ok cupid. I did meet a wonderful man that I dated for three months, but he lacked communication skills, honesty (especially with himself), and did not treat me with very much respect in the end. I have been on countless dates, and did not click with anyone. Until I met him.

He had a faceless picture on OK cupid. His profile was brief, describing a bit about his open relationship, why he needs to keep his identity secret (work), and a bit about what he was looking for. He liked me. Our compatibility rate is 92%. He leads a similar lifestyle to mine except for that one detail. Most of the men in Poly or open relationships that have approached me do not seem very ethical. But, this guy leads a very similar lifestyle to mine. I sent him a message stating I was curious. He sent pictures, and we chatted a few days until we set up a date.

I met him once and sparks flew. It was insane. He is cultured, sexy, well read, kind..... everything i like. I went home from our date on a high. He kisses like I do. I have never had that kind of reaction to someone on a first date ever, and certainly not this time around. i woke up a little panicked. What was I doing? So, like the good mindful girl that I am, I started naming my emotions. The list was very long- fear, excitement, lust, happiness, relief, calm, happy. Beyond this, I felt valued, beautiful, respected, important, and I trusted him.

He encouraged my questions, and I had many. This is where I start questioning. The attraction is undeniable. I would love to just have a steamy romance with the guy, but because of our compatibility level and how our beliefs, values, and likes match up, I am afraid I would want more. And that feels dangerous to me, and not realistic when she is clearly his primary. He told me how his 9 year marriage evolved into an open one 3 or 4 years ago. His wife was the driving force behind the decision. He has not had a girlfriend last beyond 3 months. His wife has a boyfriend that she has seen for 15 months that he has never met. I read in the Seconds Bill of Rights to be wary of this, but I think this couple is more open than poly. His friends, family and colleagues have no idea. He says we could go out in public and with my friends, but it is too soon to tell this. I think perhaps they don't really know what they are doing, but I do know that they talk about everything and have evolved this relationship from her seeing girls, to threesomes, to swinging, to this open relationship. What questions should I ask him? It is my instinct that I would feel more jealous of his wife if i never met her, than if I did. I don't know if this is founded.

We have a second date planned three days from today. I was free tonight and he expressed that he wanted to go on our second date with me, but he had a group date with his wife. This brought up new feelings for me. I felt envy- I was jealous of their marriage more than being jealous that he was with her. My marriage failed, it had no communication, compassion, trust, or compatibility. I do believe him when he says he doesn't feel jealous when his wife is with her boyfriend because he just wants her to be happy. I felt jealous because I want a man to love me like that. I felt extremely alone, lonely. I felt sad. He did send messages saying he was thinking of me. I feel that I should just be excited about a second date, but instead, I am trying to navigate feelings I am not familiar with, and I am trying to protect my heart. The problem is, that it is open. I have been through a lot, and I have done the work. I have a new lease on life, and I am excited for all the possibilities. My heart is wide open. I want to explore giving and receiving love in different ways. I have not met anyone that I could do that with other than him. I would love to hear any thoughts on my story, or any books, websites, or pod casts I should check out. :) Thank you!
 
missmindful said:
I felt envy- I was jealous of their marriage more than being jealous that he was with her. My marriage failed, it had no communication, compassion, trust, or compatibility. I do believe him when he says he doesn't feel jealous when his wife is with her boyfriend because he just wants her to be happy. I felt jealous because I want a man to love me like that. I felt extremely alone, lonely. I felt sad. He did send messages saying he was thinking of me. I feel that I should just be excited about a second date, but instead, I am trying to navigate feelings I am not familiar with, and I am trying to protect my heart.
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To be blunt, I think if you are jealous already, you perceive a wish for another traditional marriage, you should stay away from open relationships. I know the kind of jealousy you are describing, but for me it emerged much later into the relationship.

However, if you wish to decompose the feelings a little more, to me it seems you are still dealing with the breakup regrets. This is not connected to the open relationship situation. And there may be even older abandonment issues. You would have to deal with this, and possessiveness and monogamous mindsets on top of that.
It's quite usual that people encountering polyamory for the first time experience a roller-coaster of emotions. Polyamory has a way to highlight all the issues listed above + self esteem problems + any cracks in existing relationships. For some people it's worth it; but imho, if you want to try, you'd better have another reasons of your own then "this person is amazing".
 
Are you going to be comfortable with the following?

Not to be able to see your bf on a whim.
Not having him there for a crisis.
Not being able to go on vacation with him.
Not being able to go somewhere because you may run into someone he knows
Being hidden like a dirty little secret.
Not being able to spend holidays with him.
I could go on and on. ..

Now not every poly relationship is like that. Mine isn't but I am not hiding my relationship. I am out. Murf goes with me on vacation. To see family. To work events. To kid events. Etc. Plus he is very comfortable with time to himself. He actually never wanted to get married before me because he needs time alone. But then again if there is an emergency he can be there and I can drop everything and run.
 
If you already are jealous about this mans wonderful relationship with his wife, I would say you are not ready for an open relationship with him because the closer you get with him, the more you will be witness to their relationship and the more you will have these feelings and that is not fair to them, or to you.
 
I don't feel people ought to latch onto one word as though it's The Ultimate Deal-Breaker or suchlike. :rolleyes:

IME, we have two terms that are frequently conflated & intermingled because they're "pretty much the same thing, right?" but actually significantly different. My own working definitions are something like
  • ENVY -- "wow, I want to find myself in such a situation!"
  • JEALOUSY -- "wow, I want to take that so I can have it!"
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When missmindful said
I was jealous
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she was in error, & had immediately previously got it correct, stating
I felt envy
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Chill, y'all. :cool:
 
she actually said she was both, she did not state anything in error. "I felt envy- I was jealous" "I felt jealous because I want a man to love me like that"

both envy and jealousy, perfectly natural to feel and always useful in figuring out who you are as a person, whether mono or poly. lets not use semantics to make anyone's advice or opinions invalid. telling us to "chill " seems counterproductive
 
Hi missmindful,

There are two books I'd recommend, if you haven't read them already:

  • "Opening Up: a guide to creating and sustaining open relationships," by Tristan Taormino.
  • "More than Two: a practical guide to ethical polyamory," by Franklin Veaux and Eve Rickert.
Each of the above two books has an accompanying website which is also well worth exploring, though it sounds like you have visited the "More than Two" site already. Anyway, the books should give you some ideas of what to ask this fellow you're seeing. You can of course post more questions on this forum as well.

Other than that I guess my initial advice is just to take it slow. Give yourself room at all times to take a step back if you need to. You are still getting to know this man, and you are sorting through your own feelings.

That's my initial advice, anyway. Keep us posted.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Oh wow. Thank you all for your replies. It is my process to try to name my emotions in order to work out how I feel about a given situation. I do think that envy is the right word rather than jealousy. Thank you, Ravenscroft, that is indeed what I was trying to say. I feel the same emotions with my platonic friends who have open communication and compatibility in their marriages. The last man I dated had a wonderful relationship with his ex wife and mother of his children. Of course I felt extremely happy for him that he had that, but I did feel envy that I do not have that relationship with my ex husband especially for my children's sake. I feel the same way about this wonderful man. I am happy for him that he has an amazing relationship with his wife, and I am extremely impressed with the way they communicate with each other and listen to each others wants and needs. I do not want to take that from them, and I come into this eyes wide open, with full knowledge that that will never happen. We are only at date #2. I have never dated anyone in an open relationship before, and I am not sure if it will be right for me. Because the mutual attraction is so strong, I feel the need to be more careful and questioning with how my relationship would look with him, just as I would if I was dating a man who had small children. These are commitments that I would never question. It is honestly not that different to me.

Thank you Dagferi, this is the kind of food for thought I was seeking.

Are you going to be comfortable with the following?

Not to be able to see your bf on a whim.
Not having him there for a crisis.
Not being able to go on vacation with him.
Not being able to go somewhere because you may run into someone he knows
Being hidden like a dirty little secret.
Not being able to spend holidays with him.
I could go on and on. ..
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I am fine with not seeing him on every whim. I am re-building with my children and I am seeking an adult relationship. I only saw my last boyfriend once a week and that is how we both wanted it. My love language is touch with quality time as a close second. The quantity of time does not matter to me much as long as the quality is high. I also enjoyed the anticipation and build-up between dates. The things I think that will bother me is being hidden like a dirty secret and not being able to go somewhere because we may run into someone he knows. I like to be social and I don't know if we can have that. I feel that I won't know how I will feel about that until I see how he treats me in those situations. This is some of our correspondence before I met him:

Me-
I have so many questions and I am a little surprised with myself that I am even considering this. Could you tell me a little about what you are ultimately looking for? What a relationship with you would look like? ​

Him-
I'm committed to openness and communication and integrity throughout my life, generally speaking, and you should feel free to ask any and all of your questions. I'd like to be incredible friends and lovers. I am open to something more than that developing, perhaps a long-term love relationship. Or short-term if that is how it works out for us. ... My hope is to meet someone I really click with to be able to see each other a few times a week, go on weekend getaways, trips, and just to enjoy nights in, and morning breakfasts.

What would a relationship with me look like? That's a good question. Let me think how to answer that. A relationship with me would look like like a close and loving relationship that respects each other's space, your children and time, for example.


I am going to see where this goes. Based on our interactions up to this point, I believe that we could have a beautiful little love affair or friendship. I do want my relationships to be healthy and successful, however, no matter their duration and how they are defined. In this case, I feel the need to research. :) Again, I appreciate any and all feedback, and resources that you think I might find useful.
 
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Have you read Franklin Veaux's Poly FAQ page? It is a good place to start.
 
Thank you. I found the "Dating a Couple" section very helpful. I have some questions. I think that they consider themselves to be more "open" than poly. Is there a difference? His wife has had a boyfriend for fifteen months that he has never met. I have not spoken with him about it yet, but I assume that our relationship would be the same and I would not meet her. Is this something that I should be wary of? Thanks again.:)
 
missmindful said:
Thank you. I found the "Dating a Couple" section very helpful. I have some questions. I think that they consider themselves to be more "open" than poly. Is there a difference?
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Some people don't like to use the term polyamory, since it is often misunderstood. Each person, or dyad, will do poly slightly differently. The label doesn't matter so much.

His wife has had a boyfriend for fifteen months that he has never met. I have not spoken with him about it yet, but I assume that our relationship would be the same and I would not meet her. Is this something that I should be wary of? Thanks again.:)
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That might be his wife's bf's choice, and not a "rule" that they never meet each other's OSOs. I've never met my gf's bf (my metamour) because she travels 20 miles to see him, and he is introverted and prefers them just to have their one on ones at his place. She'd be fine with me meeting him if her bf wanted to. She has met almost every person I have dated since I often host them here at our house.

If your bf's wife never wants to meet or even know about his OSOs, then they have a don't ask don't tell relationship. I steer clear of people who have that agreement with their spouse or primary partner.
 
"Open" actually has several possible meanings depending on context. It often means responsible nonmonogamy as a whole, in which case polyamory is a subset of open relationships. What sets poly apart is that it has emotional entanglements: The people in a poly arrangement have romantic ties to each of their partners. Other nonmonogamous (open) arrangements have casual partners without the emotional element, swingers for example.

I don't see any red flags in your situation so far, so I guess I suggest to proceed albeit with caution (simply because you're just beginning to get acquainted with this guy). The way he talks to you sounds poly to me, but some would-be polyamorists are uncomfortable wearing the poly label. Hence for example they might just say that they have an open relationship. It's too soon to know if that is the case here.

That's how it seems to me so far.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Kevin,

Thank you so much for taking the time to read my posts and respond to me. As you stated, I have been doing research, but being that this is very new waters, it is very difficult to find answers. Thank you for the book recommendations. I was not sure what to read first, I will start with those two. I had already found the websites, and yes, they have been very helpful.

I don't see any red flags in your situation so far, so I guess I suggest to proceed albeit with caution (simply because you're just beginning to get acquainted with this guy). The way he talks to you sounds poly to me, but some would-be polyamorists are uncomfortable wearing the poly label. Hence for example they might just say that they have an open relationship. It's too soon to know if that is the case here.
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I think he is Poly as well. I did ask him if he identified as Poly, and he said, "No, because I am not in love with two people." His wife is though. I hope you are right, that there are no red flags, but I will of course proceed with caution. :) I will let you know how the second date goes.

Magdlyn-

That might be his wife's bf's choice, and not a "rule" that they never meet each other's OSOs. I've never met my gf's bf (my metamour) because she travels 20 miles to see him, and he is introverted and prefers them just to have their one on ones at his place. She'd be fine with me meeting him if her bf wanted to. She has met almost every person I have dated since I often host them here at our house.

If your bf's wife never wants to meet or even know about his OSOs, then they have a don't ask don't tell relationship. I steer clear of people who have that agreement with their spouse or primary partner.
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Thank you for the explanation and your personal story, I had come across some of this advice, but your story brought it into perspective for me. I now have a better idea of what questions to ask. Your response was very helpful. I will keep you posted after our second date.


I must say that I was a little nervous to post here at first, but I am very glad that I did. Hearing personal stories, and receiving direct answers to questions and concerns has definitely cleared up confusion, and given me some insight into a new situation.:)
 
missmindful said:
His wife has had a boyfriend for fifteen months that he has never met. I have not spoken with him about it yet, but I assume that our relationship would be the same and I would not meet her. Is this something that I should be wary of?
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My husband is not very eager about meeting my others. At first he said that he never wants to see my other loves, and so it was for several years. I kept my relationships separate. But, as things with Mark started to become more and more serious and CJ witnessed how that relationship really made me happy, he became curious. The first meeting happened when me and Mark had been together for half a year. One thing lead to another and a year later we three moved in together. So - a lot of things are possible in this life, however it would look like in the beginning. We have now been living together for two years and are all happy about the situation.

However, my husband is still not eager to meet any new loves in my life. It is what it is. He knows about my lovers but does not want to hear any details.

So, to me not meeting the metamours is not a red flag in itself. There can be good reasons for it. Also, not requiring a meeting can be a sign of trust in the primary relationship: the primary partners trust each other to choose good people to be together with.
 
Missmindful,

There's excellent responses above, and I don't know that I can improve on the points they raise. I did want to address something that hasn't been fully addressed, that I can see. Dagferi's post was fantastic, and she's spot on. I wanted to expand on this a bit though, and I hope you'll bear with me.

My wife and I got into swinging almost ten years ago. We're not really swingers anymore. We don't really have a definition for it except HAPPY as clams in mud. Is it full blown polyamory? No. Is it an open marriage? Depends on how you define that. We don't care much about the definition. But, where your potential boyfriend and his wife are sounds a fair bit like our present situation.

My wife has had two different long term (years) boyfriends. She's become close with both of them, though one did not work out. Her current boyfriend has been in the picture now for coming up on three years. There's some geographical distance involved, but they are in contact most days. I've not yet had a girlfriend, though I've not tried to do so. Things have gently evolved to where they are; we're quite comfortable with referring to my wife's second as her boyfriend, but it's not evolved past that. They care about each other, quite a bit in fact, though they've never openly stated they love each other.

My wife and I have had discussions about the future, and how a boyfriend and/or girlfriend fits into that future. We know that it would be distinctly unfair to such a notional person to ask them to be more involved with us (not using "commitment" here as it's not quite the right word) without giving them the full set of 'rights', if you will, of a 'typical' relationship. Such a person should enjoy being able to be an equal, to have me or my wife be openly proud of them in public, among others, etc. There are choices to be made, to be sure, as some family members would outright reject us. But, in every respect possible, that person would be an equal. If that person 'married' one of us, they should enjoy the fullness of the relationship just as much as the supposed 'primary'.

I don't think your potential boyfriend and his wife are quite there yet, just as we are not quite there yet. To me, speaking from the chair I do, I don't think this is necessarily a problem. At least, right now. A year from now, it might be. It depends on what your wants, needs, and desires are.

So, what do you want? If all you want is a lover, whom you grow quite fond with the more times you see him, he's probably your man. If you want someone whom you can fall in love with, there's a decent chance he's your man as well; but you will have to recognize there are, at least for now, limits to what privileges you can enjoy as his girlfriend. Right now, I don't think you can be an equal to his wife. I don't think they're ready for that yet. So really, it's less about what him than it is about you. Scoping out your emotions isn't easy, and you've done that. Also not very easy is scoping out just what you hope to have in a relationship with him.

I have a very good friend who has had quite a lot of trouble in her love life over her entire adult life. She's never been treated with the proper respect, love, and adoration that she deserves. She's had many relationships, including a >10 year marriage that failed. She knows the nature of my wife's and my relationship. One day she pronounced she was ready to give up and marry me as wife #2. She's in jest though, as she has said. But, what she wants is what I am; a person who loves deeply, with a ton of character (my wife's words). Thing is, she wants a man for herself and herself alone. I can't offer that. Understand what you need and want. Be clear about what your potential boyfriend can offer, and if the two match up enough in the important ways, then I think you're off to a great start.

A non-critical observation; you're strongly feeling the effects of New Relationship Euphoria (NRE). One date, and you've happily over the moon :) This is a good thing, but understand your rationality is stretched a bit when
you're under the influence of NRE :) You're trying hard to figure out if this is right for you, but haven't really sat in the car yet, so to speak. Not suggesting you have to have sex with him to figure out if it's right for you. Rather, a few dates, meeting his wife, etc. may help to inform you of how a relationship would really be with him.

I know he's said he has not met his wife's boyfriend. Some relationships work like that. Mine doesn't; I always want to be a partner with my wife, and I know her boyfriends, who she's with, and like to hear about her dates afterwards. We also enjoy threesomes from time to time. We just like to be involved with each other. It's not a control thing; it's a we're in this together thing. Maybe that is less important to you, but for my part if I were in your shoes I would want to meet his wife somewhat early on. Doesn't have to be right away, but early is good.

Here, I'm going to disagree with Nadya a bit. I hate to say this, but it needs to be said. There are a lot of rotten men out there who will quite happily cheat on their wives, claiming the whole time they have an open relationship, etc. My wife and I don't tolerate this. We do not want to victimize someone, even if they don't know. It's wrong from an ethical standpoint, and could potentially even be dangerous. Meeting his wife eliminates this, full stop. Either she's happy to see her husband being with another woman or she's not. Some women don't want to be in the same room with their husbands while they're making love with their girlfriend, and that's fine. But if she can't be in the same room with you outside of that, there's a problem. I would be cautious.

My wife ran into a cheater once on a date. Really great guy, great conversationalist, well educated, cultured, etc. She was very attracted to him. She didn't make it past date #2 with him, and didn't do anything more than kiss him. The warning signs were there.

Take a deep breath, enjoy yourself, and have a great second date :) Remember it's not year #2, it's date #2. Let us know how it goes, and certainly bombard us with questions if you want to. We'll be happy to answer as best we can.
 
I think you should just go for it. It's only a second date - don't get ahead of yourself, no matter how exciting this is or how compatible he seems. It's just a date.

Date him, get to know him, ask questions, see what happens! Have fun.

Just because he's already married doesn't mean there is no possibility of having a valued and important place in his life. It doesn't mean you will always have to hide nor be content with only scraps. He may be able to do poly really well. You won't know if you don't take a chance. And remember, you can date others, too!

Try not to compare what he has to what you had in your marriage - no one ever wins when we compare. Be cautious and optimistic but don't settle if you see a red flag. Keep talking - communication will help.

And keep us updated! ;)

.
 
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Her second date should have been a week ago. And no update!
 
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