self-betrayal?

[TreyDee]

longtime poly/libertine, first time poster. Have never been able to find a collection of my peers with which to discuss and learn from.

I've got lots of questions to ask and experiences to share, but at the moment, I'd like to ask what's been bothering me for YEARS, specifically:

People just assume you're a 'slut' or 'whore', and what I've heard most often when I try to explain how I feel about loving people in general and being intimate with a very specific few - "One person/they/I must not be enough for you, so why would I/they/someone bother having a relationship with you in the first place if they're setting themselves up for having to share you and your emotions and always feel like they're not enough?"

It's always frustrated me, ever since I had a lesbian friend ask me when I was going to 'come out of the closet' as a Polyamour. She flatly stated that she sympathized with what I was going through as where she was born loving and attracted to women, I was born loving and being attracted to people and wanting to share that with the 'select few'. She said society regarded Polyamours as worse than fetishists, whores, and LGBT, because Polys have no suppourt network, no ACLU representation, no examples on TV to have a basis of reference from.
She said that the unique thing about Polyamours is that they often go through life trying to find someONE to fill the shoes of multiple partners and get frustrated and depressed, and also that most of their partners will selfishly (if unknowingly) make it about themselves and their feelings of inadequacy and not about even trying or attempting to put themselves in the shoes of their poly partner and try to empathise how stricken and lonely it must be for them to go through life not only hiding their true selves, but also the self-hate/loathing/recrimination that comes with feeling/being taught there's 'something wrong' with them.

How do you folks feel about what she shared with me? Because it struck a nerve, sounded like truth in a lot of ways. I'm so sick and tired, exhausted, to be honest, of hiding who I am, of it just being assumed I'm a slut or that I'd be intimate with just anyone who wanted it. So frustrated with trying to explain to partners that it's not that they're 'not enough' but that I desire the experience of sharing different levels of love and intimacy with a select few/less than a handful, but that their own feelings of inadequacy and jealousy turn them against me even before we can fully explore what we have together with each other.

It happens all the time. Not always, there is that rare partner who can handle open relationships and the excruciating honesty and love and forgiveness and open-mindedness it takes to maintain them, but they are damn few and far between. Tell someone you have enough love for two or three people, or that you're not ashamed with with the idea of exploring your own body and the bodies of others, and at some point, you'll be accused of eyeing random people in the street, of thinking like a pervert, of being 'sick', even (sometimes especially) if you have all proof to the contrary that you're killing a part of yourself off, smothering and drowning it, with the effort to truly be with them and no-one else.

In the past, the open relationships that didn't work still worked better than the monogamous relationships that didn't work. My open relationships failed through bad finances, alcohol/drug issues, or of someone finally admitting that they couldn't take lying about being 'open' and that they only did it because that's 'what you wanted'. I've never tricked anyone into an open relationship, but I've sure felt tricked into a relationship where someone lied about being okay with it.

The monogamous relationships inevitably start to fail when I'm honest with them about who I am. About loving people, and loving a few people in my life unconditionally and without reserve. Wether or not I pursue that in an intimate fashion, it's just assumed after that point that I am/have/inevitably will do so.

It seems like a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation. I'm not an awful-looking person, and if I wanted to live a life of total debauchery and gratification, I could. I've done it before. I'm just tired of being treated like that's what I do. Because I don't. That was a phase, and I realized there were other things to explore. But I'm frustrated and heartbroken at wanting to explore this aspect of myself, wanting to defy the world who labels me as 'sick' or 'broken' or 'wrong', and at my wit's end with trying to convince partners that yes, I don't have to be intimate with others to explore who I am, and that even though I'd be happier in some ways being able to express myself and share love/intimacy/relationships on levels that people aren't used to, I'm not willing to sacrifice monogamy with one partner who makes me happier than I have been for a long time by indulging this aspect of myself.

Any input on all this stuff is welcome and asked for. I'm hoping to see how many of y'all have felt the same way and struggled with wanting to betray the self that loves 'others' in order to love 'only one other', and if so... What did you do and how did it work out for you?

 

[london]

Have you considered that, perhaps, you don't maintain several relationships as well as you think you might? Perhaps, you do form too many expectations and obligations with people, and maybe when you're in an entangled relationship, it suffers because you've stretched yourself too thin.

As for society, it's a sex negative place. I don't think poly people are generally any less sex negative than their monogamous counterparts.

 

[IndieSolo]

That was certainly a good deal of generalizations and blanket statements your friend made about polyamorists! However, what are her opinions based on - knowing a limited handful of polyfolk and doing a little reading, maybe? There are so many ways to have/maintain multiple loving relationships, I don't think generalizing people who "live poly" is really possible or practical.

 

[bookbug]

I think the first thing you have to ask yourself: do you think you are broken? If not, then why give a rats about what other people think? In my experience when a person is not comfortable with themselves, or wonders about the legitimacy of her choices, others pick up on that and assume from the uncertainty that there is something amiss in the explanations.

Now, I do realize that different personality types are far more affected by the opinions of others than I am. It was never a part of personality, so I may not be the best person to address your concern.

So first off, I don't share my personal history with mere acquaintances. None of their business. When someone becomes close enough to be considered a friend, I may share. If that person doesn't handle it with grace, shows disapproval, etc. their loss. I don't need those kinds of people in my life. That said, I've never told anyone who failed the test.

You might ask yourself what criteria you are using to choose your friends. Only open-minded, non-judgmental people make the cut. How do you determine this? Discuss politics, religion, etc. If you can have a calm, respectful conversation on these emotionally charged topics, they are more likely to be more tolerant of alternative lifestyles.

Question: are you tolerant of others political, or religious beliefs? You have to model what you seek.

 

[AlbertaRaven]

Your post made me feel sad. I hate that our society tells us that sex and love should be restricted. It sounds like you are feeling that pressure quite deeply.

It's normal for people to care what others think. I've found that the stronger my own self-esteem, the less emphasis I put on what society thinks. I still care about what my friends think of me, so I surround myself with loving, open-minded people. Why choose friends who naysay me when I can have supportive friends instead?

Who is calling you a slut? Get rid of that person. If it's your own inner voice, you can learn to change that. You have the right to love and share your body with whoever you like.

You wrote "The monogamous relationships inevitably start to fail when I'm honest with them about who I am." If it was a perfect world, you could be honest from the start. Let them know early on that you're non-monogamous, in order to weed out the people who can't handle that. It does make the dating pool smaller, yes. But which would you rather: a mono partner with whom you can't be yourself; or being solo, maybe a solo poly person, able and willing to love herself and without dependency on another? When you build the confidence to be alone and make your decisions without regards to social norms that restrict who you are, people will be attracted to that.

Why do you feel the need to hide who you are?

 

[Marcus]

As to the quote from your friend... *shrug*

Sounds like she doesn't know what she's talking about. Hearing a poly story or two an expert does not one make. You could read through these boards I suspect for the next 6 months straight without eating or sleeping and even THAT would give you a tiny sliver of a sampling.

Just because your friend has a mouth that works doesn't mean you should take it to heart.

People just assume you're a 'slut' or 'whore'... thinking like a pervert, of being 'sick'... the world who labels me as 'sick' or 'broken' or 'wrong'

Who the hell are you hanging out with that you are getting this much vitriol? These are not the words of friends, but of people who are trying to harm you. Anyone who says anything even *approaching* something this cruel needs to be given their walking papers.

Seriously, take a close look at who you are associating with because carrying around this kind of message can be extremely dangerous to the psyche.

It happens all the time. Not always, there is that rare partner who can handle open relationships and the excruciating honesty and love and forgiveness and open-mindedness it takes to maintain them, but they are damn few and far between.

Finding compatible partners is difficult. It's difficult for people who have more mainstream views on relating and it is unsurprisingly more difficult for people the closer to the fringe of tradition they get. This is a common struggle, and unfortunately there aren't any great solutions I'm aware of.

In the past, the open relationships that didn't work still worked better than the monogamous relationships that didn't work.

Some relationships are healthier and more effortless than others because the people involved have compatible personalities, common interests, compatible worldviews, etc. No doubt being with a non-monogamous person runs a higher probability of being with someone who has a compatible worldviews (at least in one regard). So it's not surprising that they worked out better.

I'm hoping to see how many of y'all have felt the same way and struggled with wanting to betray the self that loves 'others' in order to love 'only one other', and if so... What did you do and how did it work out for you?

A need to have multiple simultaneous romantic partners is not the reason I consider myself to be poly. I respect my autonomy and living a genuine life and decided that monogamy made demands on me which I did not agree with. This means I default to non-monogamy. Since I don't consider romantic love to be a scarce resource and I am not into casual sex, that puts me pretty much in the camp of poly.

So for me this question would be more like "have you struggled with betraying the self that is genuine in order to be with someone even though they wanted me to change"? Yes, I've dated someone who was very insecure and an incompatible personality type... she wanted me to fit into a mold and I tried to do it... it was the worst romantic experience of my life... by a WIDE margin.

What did that teach me? Never compromise who I am, for anyone or any reason. Haters can go have a nice tall glass of go-fuck-themselves.

 

[graviton]

As to the quote from your friend... *shrug*

Sounds like she doesn't know what she's talking about. Hearing a poly story or two an expert does not one make. You could read through these boards I suspect for the next 6 months straight without eating or sleeping and even THAT would give you a tiny sliver of a sampling.

Just because your friend has a mouth that works doesn't mean you should take it to heart.



Who the hell are you hanging out with that you are getting this much vitriol? These are not the words of friends, but of people who are trying to harm you. Anyone who says anything even *approaching* something this cruel needs to be given their walking papers.

Seriously, take a close look at who you are associating with because carrying around this kind of message can be extremely dangerous to the psyche.



Finding compatible partners is difficult. It's difficult for people who have more mainstream views on relating and it is unsurprisingly more difficult for people the closer to the fringe of tradition they get. This is a common struggle, and unfortunately there aren't any great solutions I'm aware of.



Some relationships are healthier and more effortless than others because the people involved have compatible personalities, common interests, compatible worldviews, etc. No doubt being with a non-monogamous person runs a higher probability of being with someone who has a compatible worldviews (at least in one regard). So it's not surprising that they worked out better.



A need to have multiple simultaneous romantic partners is not the reason I consider myself to be poly. I respect my autonomy and living a genuine life and decided that monogamy made demands on me which I did not agree with. This means I default to non-monogamy. Since I don't consider romantic love to be a scarce resource and I am not into casual sex, that puts me pretty much in the camp of poly.

So for me this question would be more like "have you struggled with betraying the self that is genuine in order to be with someone even though they wanted me to change"? Yes, I've dated someone who was very insecure and an incompatible personality type... she wanted me to fit into a mold and I tried to do it... it was the worst romantic experience of my life... by a WIDE margin.

What did that teach me? Never compromise who I am, for anyone or any reason. Haters can go have a nice tall glass of go-fuck-themselves.

I admire your attitude. I see myself in you but am unable to muster the courage to do so. I imagine you must have difficulties living true to your ideal.

 

[Marcus]

I imagine you must have difficulties living true to your ideal.

You would be correct! It's easier said than done, and I'm including myself in that.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello TreyDee,

By the time polyamory (rather than monogamy) per se became an issue for me, I had already shucked off the attitudes of mainstream society and had no problem making the transition. But that aside, I do know a little of what it is to be made to feel ashamed for not fitting into society's little cookie-cutter molds. It's a sucky experience that can steal decades from your life, and sometimes you have to hit bottom before you can reprogram yourself.

I sense that you are currently drowning in negative messages about your poly inclinations. Like Marcus was kind of saying, you need to cleanse your life of the sources of those negative messages. Cut the ties with any so-called family or friends who talk to you that way, or who in any way (direct or indirect) make you feel that way about yourself. Seek out a new set of chosen family and friends who are positive and supportive about your polyamorous nature.

I strongly suggest you do not try to "squeeze yourself into a monogamous relationship" at any time, for any reason. It's not you. If you meet someone and they don't like the idea of polyamory, then write them out of your life right then and don't even give them a parting thought. Conserve your energy for moving on to the search for friends, family, and partners who *can* appreciate poly and who *will* accept poly as a (beautiful) part of you.

Does it suck that mainstream society is all bent out of shape about polyamory? Yes it does. Can we wave a magic wand and make mainstream society see the light? No we can't. Mainstream society isn't likely to see the light for many generations to come.

Instead of throwing ourselves against that brick wall, let's focus on how we can improve our own individual lives, our own little corner of the Universe. So you live in a fucked-up world. I'm sorry that happened to you. Believe me, you and I are in the same boat as far as that's concerned. My solution (such as it is) is to make the best of a not-the-greatest situation. Which means, among other things, that I am going to pursue a polyamorous life, and if others don't like that, well, they can scream and cry about it on their own dime. I have my own life to live.

Please do not listen to the negative voices anymore. Accept that you are a good and beautiful person just the way you are, and live in a way that honors you and has mercy on you. Stop trying to cooperate with the monogamous world. Build your own world, within your own life. A world that makes sense.

I hope that pep talk inspires you to break out of that shell and become a "loud and proud" polyamorist.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[bookbug]

Hello TreyDee,

By the time polyamory (rather than monogamy) per se became an issue for me, I had already shucked off the attitudes of mainstream society and had no problem making the transition. But that aside, I do know a little of what it is to be made to feel ashamed for not fitting into society's little cookie-cutter molds. It's a sucky experience that can steal decades from your life, and sometimes you have to hit bottom before you can reprogram yourself.

I sense that you are currently drowning in negative messages about your poly inclinations. Like Marcus was kind of saying, you need to cleanse your life of the sources of those negative messages. Cut the ties with any so-called family or friends who talk to you that way, or who in any way (direct or indirect) make you feel that way about yourself. Seek out a new set of chosen family and friends who are positive and supportive about your polyamorous nature.

I strongly suggest you do not try to "squeeze yourself into a monogamous relationship" at any time, for any reason. It's not you. If you meet someone and they don't like the idea of polyamory, then write them out of your life right then and don't even give them a parting thought. Conserve your energy for moving on to the search for friends, family, and partners who *can* appreciate poly and who *will* accept poly as a (beautiful) part of you.

Does it suck that mainstream society is all bent out of shape about polyamory? Yes it does. Can we wave a magic wand and make mainstream society see the light? No we can't. Mainstream society isn't likely to see the light for many generations to come.

Instead of throwing ourselves against that brick wall, let's focus on how we can improve our own individual lives, our own little corner of the Universe. So you live in a fucked-up world. I'm sorry that happened to you. Believe me, you and I are in the same boat as far as that's concerned. My solution (such as it is) is to make the best of a not-the-greatest situation. Which means, among other things, that I am going to pursue a polyamorous life, and if others don't like that, well, they can scream and cry about it on their own dime. I have my own life to live.

Please do not listen to the negative voices anymore. Accept that you are a good and beautiful person just the way you are, and live in a way that honors you and has mercy on you. Stop trying to cooperate with the monogamous world. Build your own world, within your own life. A world that makes sense.

I hope that pep talk inspires you to break out of that shell and become a "loud and proud" polyamorist.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Well said, Kevin.

 

[LovingRadiance]

A need to have multiple simultaneous romantic partners is not the reason I consider myself to be poly. I respect my autonomy and living a genuine life and decided that monogamy made demands on me which I did not agree with. This means I default to non-monogamy. Since I don't consider romantic love to be a scarce resource and I am not into casual sex, that puts me pretty much in the camp of poly.


What did that teach me? Never compromise who I am, for anyone or any reason. Haters can go have a nice tall glass of go-fuck-themselves.

This

 

[GalaGirl]

I could be totally wrong, but let me take a stab in the dark. You correct me, ok?

Since this is posted in "Poly Corner" and not "general poly discussion" I am going to guess this is the main thing since it was near on the last paragraph and that sounds "current and personal" and more "situation at hand" to me.

The rest to me seems like dwelling on past stuff -- almost like wanting to NOT be dealing in the present moment. I also notice a tendency to "go general global vague" in your writing rather than be specific and personal. I don't think you are worried about "the world" labeling you as "sick" -- I think you fear your partner X labeling you as "sick" if you disclose.

Blue mine.

But I'm frustrated and heartbroken at wanting to explore this aspect of myself, wanting to defy the world who labels me as 'sick' or 'broken' or 'wrong', and at my wit's end with trying to convince partners that yes, I don't have to be intimate with others to explore who I am, and that even though I'd be happier in some ways being able to express myself and share my thoughts and feelings about love/intimacy/relationships with X even if on levels they are not used to.

I'm not willing to sacrifice the current peace/happy in monogamy with one partner who makes me happier than I have been for a long time by indulging this aspect of myself.

To me it sounds like you are experiencing inner conflict.

• You think you could be happier with X being more open/honest about your poly thoughts and feelings. Expressing your true authentic self.
• You enjoy the current level of happy with X enough not to want to risk losing it or rock the boat at this time. You have not enjoyed this in relationship in a while. You don't know how they will respond.

Is that it?

I find it interesting that you label the need to know and be known as "indulgent" rather than recognizing it as a human need. Yet the title of your post is "self betrayal" so I wonder if on some level you recognize it as a need and recognize that you pretending it isn't a need is self betraying? Like you know you are not honoring you as well as you could?

So my guess is...

• You are dating someone, person X, right now. Being with X makes you happier than you've been in a long time.
  
• You would be happy dating just them... if you could also know they love you, ALL of you. Even your poly side.
  
• You are reticent about disclosing it because of past experiences coming out to other dating partners have not always gone down well. You fear X's response will be the same and cost you the current happy.
• But THIS relationship is that the point of disclosure. You have to decide to tell in order to keep being your true authentic self. Fear is paralyzing you though and preventing you from taking that action.
• Your lesbian friend sympathizes with your struggle and fears. She encourages you to be more honest with yourself, them, etc. by coming out as poly and giving the relationship a real shot with totally honest foundations. Not be keeping things hidden and suffering on the inside because you are going against your own grain.

Like I said... I could be totally wrong in my guess. But is that where this is all at?

Galagirl

 

[InfinitePossibility]

My experiences with living outside some of the norms of life is that there are always people around who will feel uncomfortable with that and who phrase discussions around how much I'll regret my life. You know, when I realise how much I've missed out on love by not having children or when I'm dying alone and miserable because I don't have a husband or children.

I get it. The thought of being unmarried (and uninterested in seeking a husband) and childless is very unpleasant to lots of people. When they put themselves into my shoes, they feel awful and want to help. The thing is, I'm not them. I'm me in my shoes and I don't feel awful. Nor do I believe that husbands and children are necessarily a good route to more love or to not being lonely in old age. It seems to me that lots of husbands die before their wives, sometimes after needing lots of care. That children often - as they should - grow up to live their own lives and aren't there to ease the lonlieness of old age. Sometimes children bring their own stresses into parents' lives through their struggles.

From what I can see for those of us with a decent amount of wealth, a better route is to develop good IT skills and to use those to be able to maintain relationships on-line (in case of becoming too infirm to leave the house). Also to develop and maintain an interest in other people and a love of meeting new folks and following new interests. That's what I explain to people when they express worry for me.

Anyway I think it is normal that I find myself sometimes challenged and worried over by friends and family - I have chosen a very different life than might be expected and am open about the reasons for doing so.

I'm helped hugely in not becoming frustrated or depressed by having several friends who are also childfree and unmarried (I have several married and childfree friends too) and who are happy with their lives. Some of these friends are much older than me and still happy so it helps me to not see my chosen life as one that will necessarily lead to being sad and lonely.

I suspect that lots of the people who really don't understand and don't approve of how I live just stay away from me.

My take on romance is that romantic relationships are a weird way to go about things. Utterly odd. I think that's why - in spite of huge amounts of socialisation and ongoing social pressure to encourage people to see those relationships as the pinnacle of human connection - they are hard work. Complicated and difficult to do well.

So I have reached the conclusion that if I'm going to be in a romantic relationship (which I am now and am very much enjoying even though it is more work than any of my other relationships) then it needs to be monogamous on both sides. I have zero interest in the sort of work that seems to arise from maintaining multiple romantic relationships.

It may be that if/when I find myself single again I might choose to have multiple FWBs. I reckon that depends on what else is going on. Last time I was single, I wasn't interested enough to even develop that sort of dynamic. I wanted to find more platonic friends and to study so that's what I did.

I do develop crushes and interests in other people regularly. I do talk about it with my partner. He's fine with all of that. He has been in open relationships for years and years and sees it as perfectly normal. He's happy to be monogamous with me just now. He loves me utterly and he sees romantic relationships in a much more positive light than I do so he very much prefers to be in one. We both meet people sometimes that we are interested in and we talk to each other about it if it comes up. We just don't act on it because to do so would mean a big change in the dynamic between us and for the moment, we'd both like to keep the dynamic the same.

My last long-term partner and I would talk lots about meeting people we were interested in. He was one of the most monogamous people I have ever met. I was the first person he ever slept with. He married his second lover and is still with her. Even so we both acknowledged that we were attracted to others and saw it as normal.

I think that finding good, supportive people to be friends with is a really good idea if you want to live differently. Also, it might be a good idea to reflect a bit on how you communicate and present yourself. If you have repeated experiences of partners trying out open relationships just to please you, of people in your life calling a slut and of great difficulties in being yourself, reflect on whether or not the way you communicate with them might in part invite those sorts of reactions? It might not but if it's a repeated situation, it is worth considering?

I'm okay with my partner being monogamous even though he is clear that he thinks open and poly relationships are better. I'm okay with it because he tells me that he is happy with me and that he wants to be in the relationship. If he said "I'm choosing to do this to please you but be aware that it's smothering an important part of me." then I would break up with him.

I don't want anybody smothering an important part of themselves in order to be with me.

IP