Shame and Fear

[KingCobra]

So, to anyone who read my introduction post, it may have sounded like my life was happy hunky dory rainbows and butterflies. And while that's pretty true 80-90% of the time, there've been a lot of things wearing me down lately.

About three years ago, my wife Alice met her now best friend (Ivy) online and they hit it off well. I had jealousy issues then due to intrusion. They would text. Constantly. Even when Alice (then my fiancee) and I were out at dinner. Over time, it just became a thing. No problem.

This March-ish I found out that they'd confessed their love for each other the previous November. While I was hurt, I'd suspected, so it didn't come as a surprise. It was then that I started researching polyamory, because while they said they'd be satisfied just being close friends, I wanted to explore all the options for everyone involved. Additionally, and importantly, we invited Ivy to move in with us, and she happily accepted, because any relational stress with us, by her reckoning, would be less stress than where she is now.

However, what was a surprise was that when Alice had flown up to visit her this last April (we are in MA, she is in CA, so I encouraged flying-out visits) that they had kissed. It was a surprise because I had found out by *sigh* reading one of Alice's texts and it mentioned it in very romantic terms.

I was floored, not because they had kissed (three days before the kiss happened, I'd consented to the idea of a threesome) but because I asked Alice if anything had happened romantically, and she'd insisted nothing had happened. We hashed things out for several hours. I was hurt and betrayed, but I couldn't find it in me to be as angry as I thought I would be.

I thought that I had forgiven her, and everything was kosher, but I still had lingering doubts and fears. This was the only thing in 7 years Alice hadn't told me upfront. She thought I would leave and divorce her.

Flash forward to now, five weeks later-- this morning I admitted I'd done a terrible thing that I'm ashamed I even thought about doing: About ten times I spied on their IM chat conversations. I'm still queasy thinking about it. After all that, I still spied?

This morning I woke my wife up to tell her the truth. She was hurt and disappointed, but couldn't be mad at me because she felt, while not right, it was predictable I would have acted that way. She asked me to stop, which I agreed to do. I also sent an email to Ivy, admitting everything. I'm fearful for their relationship, and for my relationship with Ivy, and I've just been a mess the last 48 hours.

 

[GalaGirl]

I thought that I had forgiven her, and everything was kosher, but I still had lingering doubts and fears. This was the only thing in 7 years Alice hadn't told me upfront, as she thought I would leave and divorce her.

I'm sorry you are experiencing ugh.

If you are fearful, you could need reassurance. Is Alice providing enough? Is Ivy? How about you? Alice is fearful. Do you provide her with enough reassurance?

If thoughts of breaking up are scary, talk about it, and how it could go. You could even draw up the divorce papers now, notarize and safety-deposit-box one copy for each, not because you want to split up, but because you love each other and want to alleviate fears of "They will go nuts, use the kids against me, steal all the bank money, lalalalala."

When you do not share fears with your spouse, you miss the opportunity to be and feel vulnerable... and find out your spouse is still there. So you can get deep reassurance and emotional intimacy. Why are you each selling the other spouse short? How's this each spouse moving toward each other to create connection?

Feel the fear and do it anyway. Reveal and share. Squirm and feel hot and ugh and.... find out it is ok.

Or find out it isn't, and take steps to solve it. "Nip it in the bud" is easier than "Rip up a garden run over with weeds." And in doing so, strengthen connection and fill up the "I can handle things" and "We can handle things" confidence buckets.

Right now this is an opportunity. Don't ostrich and have it become a threat, because you built a poly relationship with wonky foundations on this side of the triangle.

Each relationship inside the polymath needs a little bit of space for privacy.

http://www.serolynne.com/poly_complex.htm

It's not just 3 people here, but several "mini relationships" inside the bigger polyship you are thinking of building.

When you asked if anything was going on, Alice could have told you, "Yes, things are starting to grow into romance. We need to renegotiate boundaries."

Then you could feel emotionally safe, not blindsided, and have a chance to voice your thoughts/feelings and prepare for future developments.

You could have said, "Look, I need to feel emotionally safe and not blindsided. I should not have peeked. I apologize for that. But I saw this text. Then when I asked, and you told me 'No' it made me feel more unsafe because you were not honest with me. It increased my "Ack!" It didn't reassure me. I don't like being a text-peeker. I want to stop. For me to be able to stop, I need to know enough to feel safe. Would you be willing to 'hard truth it to me' when I ask questions? And tell me to step off when I cross privacy lines? And be willing to see when it is an area of discernment, because what you do can and does affect me? Help me find a balance. "

Maybe reading poly hell and pitfalls could help you both avoid Crazy Town moving forward.

Maybe reading the opening up worksheets would help you define activities that are in the "wading pool" boundaries of things, where Alice and Ivy can explore freely, and you feel safe and not needing to know the details.

Wade there for a few weeks/months, til checkpoint time, to assess how it went. Then, after the checkpoint arrives, and if everyone is feeling ok, all can agree that swimming in the Olympic-size lap pool is now ok. New checkpoint decided. And go from there. Maybe swim in the ocean next.

Each player is willing to play ball appropriately to help support/promote healthy relationships in all tiers of the polymath. All the mini relationships inside it have to be good for the larger polyship to fly true.

(Bad mixed metaphors, I know. Please excuse my tiredness. Hopefully it helps some.)

On living together -- if it is temporary til Ivy gets a new apartment... maybe. But permanent arrangements when you are all still figuring out basic compatibility seem premature to me. Be careful. This arrangement leaves none of you a safe place to retreat to and collect yourself when the polyship hits bumps. Not being able to decompress can exacerbate things anew.

It might be great (for Ivy) to live with you guys now, since it is better than her old place/situation. Maybe it's even fun for Alice and Ivy in the polymath. But is that good for the bigger polyship of you + Alice + Ivy healthy interactions at this time? Understanding the polymath thing is important.

GG

 

[PaulDrakket]

Just chill, you're doing better than you think

Honestly, I think that you're more worried than you need to be here. While there are obviously a few things to work on moving into the future, it sounds like you and Alive have a pretty strong relationship. It sounds like you've talked about the stuff that seems to be problematic (her lying and you spying) and resolved the issue/s (by agreeing not to do that crap from now on). This level of honest communication is awesome, and I think that if you continue to be honest and open with those you are involved with, things will go well for you.

From where I sit, it sounds like the only thing that's actually left on the table is Ivy's reaction to your spying (which you told her about honestly <--AWESOME). Really, I don't think you have too much cause to be worried. Assuming Ivy's a reasonable person (and if Alice loves her, that's a safe bet, I hope), I think that your communication with Ivy will yield understanding, forgiveness, and solutions for the future. Keep up the good work (honest, open communication).

These kinds of issues will come to pass, strengthening your relationships as they go. They'll never feel great, but these little speed bumps are just that: little, as long as everyone is talking and making an effort to resolve current issues and avoid (as best they can) continuing non-constructive behavior.

 

[gorgeouskitten]

What Paul said. You are doing a good job. I think you are too worried. There are plenty of pitfalls in poly, any relationship, really, and you take them as they come and communicate. Communication is key and it sounds like you guys are already good at that.

Look, I didn't tell my spouse the very first time BF and I kissed, either, but we had our poly convos and made our boundaries and everything has been completely out in the open since then.

Look forward. You can't change the past.

 

[Magdlyn]

Welcome to the site.

I am concerned about something. Why have a goal of sexual threesomes or a triad? You've never even met Ivy? How do you know there is any attraction at all?

I am concerned also at you inviting her to live with you when it's been a long-distance relationship. Can't she move near you, start school, date Alice, meet you, let things go on like that for a year or so til the relationship settles, boundaries are worked out, etc.?

We invited her to move in with us, and she happily accepted because any relational stress with us, by her reckoning would be less stress than where she is now.

That just doesn't sound very encouraging at all.

Moving a lover or metamour in just because of finances, or because, as it sounds here, she's running away from a bad situation in CA, is a really really bad idea. It goes wrong so often, especially when you're brand new to poly and don't seem to have excellent communication skills on either side in your marriage yet (lying, spying...). I'd not want to be Ivy, moving 2000 miles with an uncertain outcome, but tons of NRE. Foolish. Maybe set a boundary, such as, she can "stay" with you for a couple months until she finds her own place, even if it's a small room in a place with roommates. At least she'll have somewhere to go if this thing with Alice (and you) doesn't work out.

 

[Marcus]

However, what was a surprise was that when Alice had flown up to visit her this last April (we are in MA she is in CA, so I encouraged flying-out visits) that they had kissed... I read one of my wife's texts and it mentioned it in very romantic terms.

I thought that I had forgiven and everything was kosher, but I still had lingering doubts and fears. This was the only thing in 7 years that Alice hadn't told me upfront. She thought I would leave and divorce her.

This morning I woke her up to tell her the truth. She was hurt and disappointed, but couldn't be mad at me because she felt while not right, it was predictable I would have acted that way.

You came clean, and that's a good step. That is one very small step in this issue.

To me the real issue you need to address is the cause for these things:

1. Why were you snooping through her things in the first place?​

2. Why did she expect you to do it?​

3. Why did she suspect you would leave her for kissing someone who you guys were talking about having a threesome with?​

These are some giant red flags which should indicate that there is a fundamental issue in how you guys relate to each other. You are not relating to each other as adults who are capable of making their own decisions. You seem to be relating to each other like parent and child; you assume she's lying; she assumes you are irrational and reactionary.

Why are these assumptions in play? Is it true? Is she a liar? Are you irrational and reactionary? Is there some kind of past damage from previous relationships you guys are grandfathering into your current relationship?

I understand you feel bad for snooping. I would feel like crap if I'd done it. However, the fact that you "feel bad" isn't going to get your relationship anywhere. The only thing that is going to help is for you to figure out what the heck is going on with this snooping instinct and to do a thorough personal inventory about how you relate to her which would make her assume you'll dump her because she kissed someone who she pretty obviously has feelings for.

 

[KingCobra]

Thanks for the insight, everyone.

Worrying is unfortunately something I deal with.

Magdlyn:

Basically, the triad situation is what all three of us want and prefer, but I've been encouraging them to figure out what it is that they want their relationship to look like, then we'll figure out where I fit, if at all. At the moment, it's not even a real guarantee that they will date (which is why I used the term best friend, not girlfriend). There's love, but nothing officially decided yet. We're hashing it out in a week and a half when she's up here on vacation.

I have met her, we get along perfectly fine. She was at our wedding, and kept us both sane due to crazy bridesmaids. I think a lot of my issue is just the demotion feeling, as in, I'm not the one and only (which I've expressed to both already).

Marcus:

1. In regards to the first time, when I read the text, it really was just a stupid move, because I knew they'd been roleplaying (like sword and sorcery stuff) over text messages and I wanted to read it. It was the first time I'd done that. RE the IMs, she was open and upfront with me immediately after the May incident, but I had lingering trust issues and wanted independent confirmation everything was copacetic. My snooping was 100% fruitless and my paranoia unfounded, so that's when I came clean.

2. Because when there's an emotional upheaval or cheating, people in general want that independent confirmation. Kinda like, I don't know, sending a PI to follow your possibly cheating husband. And it wasn't that she was expecting me to snoop more that it didn't surprise her

3. Because we'd never had any kind of fight or issue of that sort. It was kinda like up, until that point, it was a nebulous idea, and after that it was a startling reality of, "Ok, what are the actual implications of this?"

And that's really it. Neither of us had been in this kind of situation before, so we were unsure of how the other would react when reality came through the wall like the Kool-Aid Man.

 

[Marcus]

My snooping was 100% fruitless, and my paranoia unfounded, so that's when I came clean.

You only came clean because you didn't find any incriminating evidence? Searching through her communications without her permission is the problem, not what you might have found. That is an absolute disregard for another human being's privacy and is not justifiable in anything resembling a healthy relationship.

It is also explicitly telling your partner that you think they are a deceitful liar and that you don't trust them as far as you can throw them.

That is reasoning for not snooping, not the fact that you didn't happen to find any dirt on your romantic partner.

Basically, the triad situation is what all three of us want and prefer. But I've been encouraging them to figure out what it is that they want their relationship to look like, then we'll figure out where I fit, if at all.

Having the hopes of a triad-type situation is neither here nor there. The people involved in the relationship will determine the arrangement, not wishful hypotheticals. If the three of you happen to all be romantically involved with each other, then you are in a triad. Deciding you want a triad and then trying to find other people to jam into those puzzle pieces is the opposite of how relationships work.

It sounds like you guys are going about it the right way, so I'd just throw out the end goal of triad if I were you. It will only put pressure on the relationships and make the outcome less genuine. Let it be what it wants to be and you'll be happier.

 

[KingCobra]

You're 100% right about it, Marcus.

What I meant to say was the last time I snooped, I stopped and looked at myself long and hard and realized how utterly disrespectful and shady it was. And that's when I came clean.

And I threw out the triad expectations. They were talking about it, and I pressed the issue that things should just fall where they may. Ivy responded very positively at that, because it did take all the pressure off of both of us.

 

[Marcus]

I threw out the triad expectations. I pressed the issue that things should just fall where they may. Ivy responded very positively at that because it did take all pressure off.

Good for you. The less pressure put on a relationship the higher the odds of something genuine coming from it.

 

[KingCobra]

Ivy replied to my email. She feels as though she's intruding and that everything is very confusing because of distance. So we hashed out what we could and agreed to hold off on any chats or decisions related to the three of us until she's physically here in a week or so, so there's no information lost due to text not being as precise as face to face. If anyone has a concern though they should speak up, though.

So I guess it's to be continued.

 

[BoringGuy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingCobra
And i threw out the triad expectations. They were talkig about it and I pressed the issue that things should just fall where they may. And the GF responded very positively at that because it did take all pressure off both of us

Good for you. The less pressure put on a relationship the higher the odds of something genuine co ming from it.

This is refreshing to hear. Lots of people come on here determined to start a triad, or they have tried to start one, but it is turning out to be a V instead. And when advised to let go and proceed without expectation, they stomp their feet and insist, "But a triad is what we want. We agreed to it."