Spiritually Mixed (Pagan to Non-Pagan) Married Poly?

Cherub

Cherub

New member
My wife and I have enjoyed our marriage, despite a few challenges, one of the more significant ones being our spiritually mixed marriage. She has been a practicing Pagan for the at least twenty years now, having begun in Wicca, turned to Norse Heathenism, and now meets with a Druid Grove, largely because they can accommodate her Norse faith into their largely Celtic events, and her fellow Heathens are now at a large distance.

While I’ve attended a few of her events, I am not a Pagan, so have limited my involvement to observing and respectfully asking questions. One of our gaps that she’s identified in our relationship and hopes to fill in seeking another man in poly would be to experience these events not only with her friends, but with a Pagan lover. She did tell me that as a young Wicca practitioner, she had a profound experience in her first and only actual great rite, but has limited herself to symbolic ones since because we became engaged.

Since my own Spiritual path has become effectively solitary (and is difficult for me to label or easily express), it is difficult for me to comprehend how significant it is for her to experience hers with not just friends, but an actual lover. I wonder if anyone could comment on this, as she’s struggled to convey it to me.
 
As someone who consider himself pagan (with qualifiers), I thought I'd chime in, though I don't know how helpful I'll actually be.

Pagans often place great emphasis on the idea of immanence. If you're not familiar with the term, it means the belief that the spiritual isn't "out there" but right here, and can be experienced through things other religions might consider mundane or "worldly," such as sex.

Sex is powerful and primal, and so too is religion/spirituality. Combining the two can produce an extremely heady and even mystical experience.
Think about how closely connected you can feel to a sexual partner or lover. Introduce spirituality, and you have a way to connect with your god or gods very powerfully as well.

You mention that your wife said she had a "profound" experience during her first and only Great Rite. It seems, to me at least, that it's important for her to have a pagan lover because she wants someone whom she feels could help her recreate that experience.

Sexual rituals are actually something I've discussed trying with my own non-pagan husband, because I'm a worshiper of Dionysus, a god with sexual aspects. I think it would be an appropriate way to honour him, but it goes beyond that. Like many people who worship a deity, I want to connect with my god in the most intimate way possible, to feel his presence as closely and powerfully as I can, and sex has the potential to give me that to a degree that prayer alone cannot.

I hope this has helped in some way,
Bromios
 
Bromios, thank you for sharing your insights. While your Pagan path and hers differ by tradition, she is closest with Freya, who is also fertility oriented. Your description of divine immanence was helpful to me, as is your association of spiritual and sexual experiences being potentially powerful and primal, especially when combined.

Is seeking a Paganish lover for the reasons you mentioned, aside from your husband, a difficulty in your relationship? How have you approached the subject?
 
Is that the only reason she wants a lover? To participate in sexual rituals? Or are there other needs? Does she have a prospect in her pagan community to fill this role?
 
Hello, Magdlyn. To answer your question, while desiring a Paganish lover for rites is a significant reason, it is not her only one. It gets a little confusing to make distinctions, since I’m discovering, as Bromios indicated, that my concept of what is religious does not always match hers, as she is devoted to Freya, a Norse goddess, who is fertility oriented, and has explained that her being sexual is pleasing to her and her goddess.

FWIW, we have a good marriage and much enjoy our special time, which is usually anywhere from once to three times per day. I confess that I could still be happy with less, while she desires more, possibly much more.

While she briefly connected with a Heathen man who is not very local, and it looked like a good fit, something changed, and things stopped before they got physical. She is communicating with a couple of men on OKC who are aware that she’s poly oriented and looking, but neither are Pagan, so I guess that they will remain casual. Both her Norse Heathen group and Druid Grove know of her poly intentions and support her search. We’ll see if anything develops as a result.
 
I find it interesting that you post this:
She is communicating with a couple of men on OKC who are aware that she’s poly oriented and looking, but neither are Pagan. I guess they will remain casual.

Both her Norse Heathen group and Druid Grove know of her poly intentions and support her search. We’ll see if anything develops as a result.
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it is difficult for me to comprehend how significant it is for her to experience hers with not just friends, but an actual lover. I wonder if anyone could comment on this.
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Just to double-check, because I'm not hearing it clearly, where does your own consent to practicing poly stand?

Are you willing/able to participate in polyamory with your wife? Are you along for the ride? You don't much mention yourself. It's all "one of the gaps she identified... she wants this... etc."

Do you agree that is a gap in the shared marriage, or a gap in her individual preference that affects the marriage? I am confused as to what your preferences might be for yourself, as an individual, or for the marriage. What are they? :confused:

What are your current agreements? What is changing/has changed?

  • What open model relationship is she suggesting?
  • Will you also be dating?
  • Is this a relationship shape in which you personally can thrive?

It doesn't really matter why she wants to do poly at this point in time. It could be nice to know. What she does, and how she does it, affect you more.

Right now, I'm not getting a strong sense that your consent to participate in polyamory was given. Would you be willing to clarify that?

1) Has she asked you if you are willing/able to participate in a poly arrangement with her, or not asked you at all, and you need help telling her how you want to be treated?
2) Are you considering it? Do you need help weighing the pros and cons?
3) Have you given consent and need help figuring out how to put this all into practice?
4) Are you adjusting to the "new normal" now that you have given consent, and need help navigating that transition?

It's hard to tell which point in time you are, and what kind of feedback you'd like.

Since my own Spiritual path has become effectively solitary (and is difficult for me to label or easily express), it is difficult for me to comprehend how significant it is for her to experience hers with not just friends, but an actual lover, and wonder if anyone could comment on as she’s struggled to convey this to me.
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I cannot understand why she wants to do this. She's struggled to explain to me and I do not get it. Can you guys explain to me why she wants this in a way I can understand?
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My suggestion would be to stop asking why she wants to do this at this point in time, just accept that she does want to do it, and move on to examine the rest of the question, moving your thought process forward, rather than keeping it "in the stuck."

"She wants to do this. I don't get why, but she wants to. So... am I ok with this? ​
​
  • Am I willing/able to participate in polyamory with her in this way?
  • Am I willing/able to support her in this right now?
  • Do I need more time to get used to the idea in general? (soft limit)
  • Do I need more data to make an informed decision about what it is we are practicing and what is being asked of me/my skills? And the time to research that before making a final decision? (soft limit)
  • Do I need to accept that no matter how much time passes I will never be ok with this? (hard limit)
  • Do I need to accept that no matter how much we read together or learn, I will never be ok with this? (hard limit)
Move on to thinking all that out --- because you can always come back to, "Why does she want to do this? I want to be able to understand."
Skip this for now; come back to it later.

But note that if she's not able to know her own wants, needs, and limits and articulate them to other people so they can understand her, that's a big communication skill in poly practice. Maybe she is willing to do poly, but not fully able in her skills yet. Or maybe it is you on the receiving end. She broadcasts fine, but you have a hard time receiving. Either way, that will play into your communication. It's worth sharpening the broadcasting/receiving skills of you both.

I would identify this as a potential gap in the new poly relationship and existing marriage: communication skills.

Consider what your new agreements would be in poly relating--
  • Consider WHAT she does/will do in her behavior, and HOW she is expected to do it.
  • Consider WHAT you are/will be expected to do in your behavior, and HOW you are expected to do it.
Discern if all that is agreeable to you or not, so you can thrive in a poly arrangement with her, not merely survive.

If your answer for "Am I willing/able to participate in a poly network with her and a possible bf?" is anything less than a joyful yes, call it a "no," and let her know you are just not up for this at this time (soft limit) or ever (hard limit). Be honest with yourself and with her. Then make your next choices from there.

Take it one thing at a time.

Galagirl
 
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Hello, GalGirl. I'm finding your questions to be helpful. I will try to adequately address them now.

My own consent to practicing polyamory is at this point experimental and limited. My wife expressed at the end of the Summer that she'd been desiring to try polyamory for a few years, but hesitated to ask me about it because she doubted that I'd consent. She said that she'd prefer remaining mono with me if being poly meant losing me.

After much consideration, I told her that while this is not what we agreed to when we married, that I do wish to see her happy and fulfilled, so would be open to it in concept. I confessed that I was not certain if I could accept the reality of it. To that end, I agreed to experiment, that is permit her to look for and communicate with potential poly partners, so long as she could agree to start slowly, get informed, and to either pause or potentially end the polyships if I found it was not something I could accept the reality of.

So far, she has taken a slow approach, read some poly articles and books, attended poly group meetings, started communicating with a few guys and going on a handful of platonic outings, which has she has enjoyed, and I've been okay with.

I'm not sure what you mean by participating in my own polyship with my wife? While I'm not seeking another partner for myself, and would be pleased for us to resume our monoship, to sound her out, I did ask if she would then be open to my seeking a partner. She responded that she was surprised with my question, and hadn't considered it, but once she had, that at this point she's not ready to contemplate seeing me date another woman. She recognizes that it's not fair. She would hope, once she's settled into a new poly relationship, to have a change of heart on that, but couldn't be sure that she'd feel differently even then.

So if only she is seeking this, I feels like I am just along for the ride.

She expressed a strong desire for what she calls a "puppy-pile:" being the center of attention in a V at the same time. This is challenging, given I am straight. I'm unsure if it could work. But I understand her desire for it.

I'm struggling to understand your questions about gaps, but will attempt an answer based on what I think you're asking. The gaps I mentioned are aspects she still feels a longing for, that I either won't or cannot meet for her. This includes, but is not limited to, joining her for her religious festivals and rites. While I would desire her to share my perspective on the eternal questions, I realize that is not where she is now, or is likely to join me in the future, so our relations are very likely until death do us part. I agree that these gaps exist and have offered to mitigate them where possible. There seem to be gaps in her preferences that affect our marriage, as I feel no gap that drives me to seek polyamory.

My preferences at this point include:
1) being true to my own conscience
2) keeping my marriage whole and meaningful
3) seeing my wife happy and fulfilled
I'm still assessing whether any or all of these are in alignment, or in conflict, regarding her desire for poly.

The open relationship model she is suggesting is her being the hinge of an MFM Vee, with herself as hinge, the two of us remaining primary, and the new guy as secondary, with the possibility of becoming co-primary. The latter because she thinks that would be needed or fair if the Vee she desires were to be closed/mutually exclusive, as she hopes.

I honestly don't know if that is a relationship model that I could thrive in. I have concerns that it might not. I realize that I like having her to myself, and worry that her time with a new guy would feel like it was at the expense of our relationship's time and energy. My hope is that I could get along with a metamour, sharing the most important person in my life, and feel compersion from seeing her benefiting from the polyship.

Your point about "why" not mattering was helpful. I suppose I keep asking about "why" she wants this, in hopes of meeting or narrowing her/our gaps, but am coming to realize this is not possible. Have I yet clarified your question about conditional consent?

Regarding the four numbered questions:
1) Yes, she has asked me. We are still discussing how I wish to be treated.
2) I am still assessing props and cons. I have given conditional approval based on the pros, but recognize that the reality of it could show the cons to be much greater than expected.
3) Yes.
4) Yes, although as long as her dates are platonic and infrequent, I feel like little has actually changed yet, but ponder how it will once it does.

I am still carefully considering the rest of your post, as I do see this as wise advice. Please let me know if my answers generate additional questions or concerns.
 
I didn't expect you to answer me. It was more food for thought for you.

It sounds like you're both talking, moving it along slowly, and trying to treat each other well in the process.

How's she treating her dating potentials? Are they aware that you (plural) are experimenting here? Are they aware that...
  • She wants to go for an "MFM " V-shape and be working toward co-primary?
  • You aren't sure you can hack that, but willing to try and see?
  • How is the third person's willingness to play ball under those conditions?
She'd prefer remaining mono with me, if being poly meant losing me.
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And how does she expect you to let her know this, that you have reached dealbreaker point? What behaviors would you like from her? Have you articulated what your dealbreakers are? And how many of them can occur before you withdraw your willingness to experiment? Does she agree to those terms?

I agreed to experiment, that is, permit her to look for and communicate with potential poly partners, so long as she could agree to start slowly, get informed, and to either pause or potentially end the polyships if I found it was not something I could accept the reality of.
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And her other partners/dates are expected to be ok pausing or ending their relationship, based on your comfort level? Are they aware of this? Have they agreed?

Have you covered all angles of a break-up scene? Have all three players articulated their preferences? Are they on board with the expectations?

IF YOU REQUEST SHE ENDS IT:

  • How do you expect to tell her you want her to end her other relationship/s?
  • How does she expect herself to receive this news and tell this or that guy it is over?
  • How does the other person prefer to receive this news?
  • You will each get your support/nurturing needs met from ____?
  • What if she doesn't want to end it?
  • What if the other guy will not accept it?

IF A BF ENDS IT WITH HER:

  • How does she expect him to tell her he wants to end it?
  • How would you like to receive this news?
  • You will each get your support/nurturing needs met from ____?
  • What if she doesn't want to end it?
  • What if YOU don't want it to end?

SHE ENDS IT WITH YOU:

  • Have you discussed the possibility of her wanting to end things with you?
    • To be on her own
    • To be with another partner
  • How would you prefer to receive that news?
  • Do you have post-nuptial agreements in place? (If you can't talk about it now, when things are good, you don't want to be in crisis mode and then start talking it about it.)
  • You each will get your support/nurturing needs met from ____?
  • What if you don't want it to end?

Just more stuff to think over, so you know what to expect from the other people's behavior. Hopefully everyone plays ball and follows through on agreements. But I find if one can't even talk about it, that's usually a clue to not get all up in it with them. Then you can skip avoidable, preventable shenanigans.

HTH,
Galagirl
 
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Cherub said:
Since my own Spiritual path has become effectively solitary (and is difficult for me to label or easily express), it is difficult for me to comprehend how significant it is for her to experience hers, with not just friends, but an actual lover. I wonder if anyone could comment, as she’s struggled to convey this to me.
Click to expand...

It could be as simple as something like the fact that maybe you are an introvert and therefore more comfortable with a solitary spiritual path and she is an extrovert who really likes to share her spirituality with others.
 
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