The most unusual thing...

[Knightshade]

Hi everyone, I came to this board/forum looking for best practices regarding poly relationships. So far I'm receiving quite an education.

My wife and myself have been married for nearly 5 years. Prior to our marriage when my wife was younger, she had a lesbian relationship that lasted about a year. She ended it at the time because of the pressures of society and family perception.

Fast forward to the start of our relationship, and we began to discuss our wants/needs desires very openly. I could tell whenever she talked about this person there was a silent longing there. I even encouraged her to reconnect because I could tell how much she missed this other woman. She resisted doing so and we married. After our wedding, sometime in the first year of our marriage, i confronted her again about this void between us, something as a male I didn't feel like I was meeting for her. I discussed poly with her, understanding how the relationships work as I'd been exposed to them via my pagan beliefs over years and many friendships. She felt like such a situation would be a betrayal of our relationship because she would not feel comfortable dating, so I let the matter rest with the response that for someone else to be in our relationship, she'd be the one to bring them in.

So now we get to the near present, and she and her former lover (and close friend back then) reconnect over a project she was working on. They both quickly find themselves holding old flames for one another. Knowing how i felt about it my wife informed her old lover that I was ok with their relationship being rekindled.

And rekindle it has. It has woken up the my wife's will to improve in ways I don't think I ever could have. I'm proud of her and how she's bloomed thanks to this change. So we've invited this old flame to live with us, and share our lives with us, and in two months or so, she shall.

Our current configuration is a pretty straight V with my wife at the apex, but both the old flame and myself are open to it becoming a polyfi triad when we get to know (and hopefully love) each other better.

 

[idealist]

Welcome! Sounds awesome and congrats to the three of you! I hope everything works out for you! You will find a lot of support here! I wish I would have met a guy like you after I left my lesbian lover! Maybe the three of us would be together! But now that I've gotten a taste of variety, I probably couldn't even go back to a single triad!

 

[Magdlyn]

Welcome to the board.

How long has your wife and her old gf been seeing each other (and having sex, I presume) now? A couple months? Less than a year, it seems.

You really like this woman? You want to live with her? You're ready for another full time housemate? All her stuff being brought in? Melding your housekeeping standards?

Does she already live in your town?

Does she have pets? Kids?

Will your wife sleep (I mean SLEEP) with her gf half the nights now? Are you ready for sleeping alone? Or do you expect to share a large bed with both women?

Questions, questions. You seem very giving. How about what you expect to get out of this?

 

[Natja]

Such expectations....it's a big mistake. Why not just leave them to it than complicate things further by complex dynamics?

 

[Knightshade]

Welcome to the board.

How long has your wife and her old gf been seeing each other (and having sex, I presume) now? A couple months? Less than a year, it seems.

In person their relationship lasted quite some time, we are currently separated by about 1100 or so miles, so the physical has been unavailable. Cybering, skyping, there are some unusual circumstances on her end that make daily contact difficult, due to lack of regular internet. She spends time talking to both of us and sometimes just with my wife. The time always seems to fly by.

You really like this woman? You want to live with her? You're ready for another full time housemate? All her stuff being brought in? Melding your housekeeping standards?

Honestly I do, she's a lot like my wife, and she and I share a lot of the same interests and hobbies that my wife doesn't actually share (like paintball for instance.) So there is individual compatibility between us. I could easily see being in a regular relationship with her if I had somehow met her instead of my wife. We already have two other housemates, one old roommate who we let live with us (non-relationship related just a friend) while he goes to a trade school, and my father who we had to assume care of due to illness on his part.

She really doesn't have a lot of stuff, she's had a few setbacks in her life, so she's kept her material things quotient to a minimum.

As far as housekeeping standards, she knows how my wife is about things, and she's a neat person in kind with my wife. Of the three of us I'm the slob.

Does she already live in your town?

Nope, she lives very very far away, and is perfectly ok moving, since she's not from where she currently lives and has no real ties there, just went there for work.

Does she have pets? Kids?

Nope, none. She's allergic to cats, but we have dogs, and she likes dogs so we're good there too.

Will your wife sleep (I mean SLEEP) with her gf half the nights now? Are you ready for sleeping alone? Or do you expect to share a large bed with both women?

I don't believe in treating anyone like a second class citizen. We have had discussions about sleeping arrangements and our bedroom is big enough to accommodate bedding for 3 (though there is dickall for mfgs of larger bedding supplies.) In the short term she will have a separate bed in our bedroom, with the goal being we increase the size of our bed by buying a matching twin. I'm not expecting anything at all physical to happen between she and I anytime soon. She and my wife will probably be settling into finding each other again for a while before we even look at our relationship in anything but a platonic way. And I'm fine with that, my wife needed this, as I've said, I knew this was necessary for a while, and the way it has made my wife blossom has been tremendous.

Questions, questions. You seem very giving. How about what you expect to get out of this?

Getting? I prefer giving. I like helping people, I always have. I saw something my wife needed, I love her, I encouraged her to find fulfillment. That is the reward I wanted. My wife is already quite a handful for me sexually, she's always been a willing lover.

 

[Knightshade]

Such expectations....it's a big mistake. Why not just leave them to it than complicate things further by complex dynamics?

this seems a bit half finished, so I'm not sure what you mean, but if you want to elaborate feel free.

 

[Natja]

this seems a bit half finished, so I'm not sure what you mean, but if you want to elaborate feel free.

Just stop seeing a potential relationship with her as a possibility, let them have their relationship AND the privacy it needs. If something happens in the future, normally and organically than that is one thing but I can see your expectations and what will eventually be insecurity from witnessing their NRE move you to subtly push for more intimacy from her.

The NRE will be even MORE in your face as she doesn't have her own space. I can appreciate that you might not have the room but I honestly feel that bedroom sharing is the worst possible thing you can do. She is used to her own space and suddenly she will not just share with her lover but her lovers husband? And then you are planning a big bed too so she will have no choice but to witness intimate moments between you and your wife and you don't even see this as being a potential problem?

It is a car crash dude and you had better re-think this pronto or in a few months one of you will be single and alone and you had better hope it is not you.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

So we've invited this old flame to live with us, and share our lives with us, and in two months or so, she shall.

Our current configuration is a pretty straight V with my wife at the apex, but both the old flame and myself are open to it becoming a polyfi triad when we get to know (and hopefully love) each other better.

As you can see, you are going to hear some strong warnings about expectations and jumping right into a co-habitating configuration. In general, for most people, I am not going to disagree. However, every person/relationship/poly-tangle is different - so you should try whatever is right for you.

For us, we are "jump in and learn to swim" kind of folks. I need to live with people in order to really know them - so we skip the "dating and living apart" phase. Both (all two) times that I have done this, it has worked out fine. The three of us share a house and a bed - the boys are straight(but best friends).

Some people feel the need to have their own space...others don't. Some need their own space...but not when it comes to bedrooms. To each their own.

Even if everyone lives together and shares a bed, it is possible for each person to get as much "alone time" "couple time" and "shared time" as is required. You just need to be open and sensitive to everyone's needs.

Natja writes:

And then you are planning a big bed too so she will have no choice but to witness intimate moments between you and your wife and you don't even see this as being a potential problem?

I've seen this written elsewhere and by others and I am somewhat bemused by it. Does everyone besides me follow some sort of "go to bed - have sex - go to sleep" ritual? Beds are for sleeping. Sex can happen anywhere. Beds can be used for sex when NOT being used for sleeping. Sharing a bed for sleeping does NOT have to mean sharing sex.

There are easy solutions to this, people. The two that want to have sex can go to bed early, have sex, fall asleep and be done before the un-involved party comes to bed. If everyone is in bed and two want to have sex they can move to the couch (or the living room floor, or the back yard, or whatever). Nobody has to witness or be involved in sex if they prefer not to. Jeesh.

JaneQ

 

[Magdlyn]

There are easy solutions to this, people. The two that want to have sex can go to bed early, have sex, fall asleep and be done before the un-involved party comes to bed.

Yes. But what if the left out partner then wants to have sex with his wife or her gf? Do they kick out the previously fucked person?

If everyone is in bed and two want to have sex they can move to the couch (or the living room floor, or the back yard, or whatever). Nobody has to witness or be involved in sex if they prefer not to.

Well, in this case there is a platonic housemate friend and an ill elderly father around. So I kind of doubt the couch or living room floor is a good place for getting it on. Maybe the back yard. Maybe a bathroom.

Does Dad know about this woman coming to live with you? Your wife's lover, suddenly sharing your lives and bed?

 

[Natja]

I have seen this situation arise in the blogosphere before, in that case, there were scheduled 'dyad nights' in which one dyad went up to the bedroom and the other person was locked out of their bedroom until the post coital couple came down. And my complaint about it was the same as here, who wants to be locked out of their own bloody bedroom? How is someone not going to feel excluded from that?

Sorry but no, if it is my home, where I hope to live freely I do not under any circumstances want to be told that I cannot come into my own bedroom (I will make allowances for anyone wrapping me up a birthday present but that is it!!).

Maybe some people are not as precious with their space as I am, I appreciate that but the point is, you may not realise how you are until you experience the alternative and what happens when she moves 1000 miles and then realises that she feels a little crowded by it all? She is in a more vulnerable position than the dad and the lodger. And when she or the husband whoever are banned from the bedroom for sexy time what are they to do? Make small talk with the other occupants of the house?

At least with the blog triad they did not have other adults in the house.

 

[Natja]

I guess my main concern with this 'throw yourself into it' attitude is that there is no safety net for this woman, if the relationship doesn't work out she doesn't even have her own room to hide in and to take refuge into whilst she sorts out alternative arrangements. It is beyond stupidly idealistic and is in fact hopelessly naive.

 

[Knightshade]

Just stop seeing a potential relationship with her as a possibility, let them have their relationship AND the privacy it needs. If something happens in the future, normally and organically than that is one thing but I can see your expectations and what will eventually be insecurity from witnessing their NRE move you to subtly push for more intimacy from her.

The NRE will be even MORE in your face as she doesn't have her own space. I can appreciate that you might not have the room but I honestly feel that bedroom sharing is the worst possible thing you can do. She is used to her own space and suddenly she will not just share with her lover but her lovers husband? And then you are planning a big bed too so she will have no choice but to witness intimate moments between you and your wife and you don't even see this as being a potential problem?

It is a car crash dude and you had better re-think this pronto or in a few months one of you will be single and alone and you had better hope it is not you.

I find it amusing that you find yourself so confident in your assertions, knowing nothing of the communication between the three of us, or comfort levels or desires. I've known people for years and not been as comfortable telling them things along these lines with such authority.

I'm not a child, nor horny teenager, and neither are they. I'm very aware of the risks associated with all of this, and I've talked about them so much my wife has forbidden me to talk of them further.

I don't assume I will have any sort of relationship beyond friendship/platonic with OF ever. It's not in my nature to assume anyone likes me, much less loves me. I was 19 before I kissed a girl for the first time. 21 before I had sex for the first time, and have had less than a dozen sexual partners, by choice. I take relationships slowly and deliberately. I always seek friendship first. To that point because of the age difference between my wife and myself I tried to talk her out of a relationship with me, because I didn't want to love her and lose her. She wasn't having it. She claimed me and that was it.

We've discussed sleeping arrangements, we aren't forcing her to sleep in our room, it was one of the options and she wanted it. I work away from home for large portions of the day, and my wife is a writer and homemaker, OF a graphics designer who could work out of the house if she finds a job that offers telecommute. There will be time for intimacy outside of the group setting without real issues, if anything myself and OF are avid gamers, and have no issue spending time playing games if the other two of us want alone time.

 

[Knightshade]

I guess my main concern with this 'throw yourself into it' attitude is that there is no safety net for this woman, if the relationship doesn't work out she doesn't even have her own room to hide in and to take refuge into whilst she sorts out alternative arrangements. It is beyond stupidly idealistic and is in fact hopelessly naive.

And you foolishly assume her current situation is anything better? You don't know her. You don't know us. You simply don't know what I've done for my enemies to help them much less my friends, or my wife for that matter (in regards to helping people.) We've already discussed the end game, we've already given our word that if it doesn't work out we will transition her at our own cost to getting started on her own if it doesn't work out.

Look, I'm sorry your life has left you so jaded and suspicious, my life should have done that to me, but I just haven't let it. I take people at their word, and want to be taken at mine. I trust my wife's judgement in this, that's part of being married.

 

[Knightshade]

As you can see, you are going to hear some strong warnings about expectations and jumping right into a co-habitating configuration. In general, for most people, I am not going to disagree. However, every person/relationship/poly-tangle is different - so you should try whatever is right for you.

For us, we are "jump in and learn to swim" kind of folks. I need to live with people in order to really know them - so we skip the "dating and living apart" phase. Both (all two) times that I have done this, it has worked out fine. The three of us share a house and a bed - the boys are straight(but best friends).

Some people feel the need to have their own space...others don't. Some need their own space...but not when it comes to bedrooms. To each their own.

Even if everyone lives together and shares a bed, it is possible for each person to get as much "alone time" "couple time" and "shared time" as is required. You just need to be open and sensitive to everyone's needs.

Natja writes:


I've seen this written elsewhere and by others and I am somewhat bemused by it. Does everyone besides me follow some sort of "go to bed - have sex - go to sleep" ritual? Beds are for sleeping. Sex can happen anywhere. Beds can be used for sex when NOT being used for sleeping. Sharing a bed for sleeping does NOT have to mean sharing sex.

There are easy solutions to this, people. The two that want to have sex can go to bed early, have sex, fall asleep and be done before the un-involved party comes to bed. If everyone is in bed and two want to have sex they can move to the couch (or the living room floor, or the back yard, or whatever). Nobody has to witness or be involved in sex if they prefer not to. Jeesh.

JaneQ

Thanks, I was beginning to feel I'd been tagged some sort of egocentric. I trust and love my wife. I like this new person, I've known of her and about her for a long time. This isn't about fulfilling my life for me. I get fulfillment from helping people and loving them. And as you stated, that's pretty much how we looked at it. We even discussed it, openly and honestly. I really wish I could express just how much I've seen my wife grow as a result of this, and how rewarding that growth has been in our relationship. Even to just get to this point, it's been more worth the risk for the rewards.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Yes. But what if the left out partner then wants to have sex with his wife or her gf? Do they kick out the previously fucked person?

Nope. Anyone who is actually using the bed to try to sleep gets first dibs - awake and wanting to have sex people can figure it out.

Well, in this case there is a platonic housemate friend and an ill elderly father around. So I kind of doubt the couch or living room floor is a good place for getting it on. Maybe the back yard. Maybe a bathroom.

Good point - I had forgotten there were other housemates involved. In our case we have a "sex bench" set up in the garage for just such occasions - say a bunch of people are crashing on the couch/living room floor and it is too cold or wet to go outside. (I'm also not opposed to utilizing one of our vehicles parked in the driveway.)

...And my complaint about it was the same as here, who wants to be locked out of their own bloody bedroom? How is someone not going to feel excluded from that?

Sorry but no, if it is my home, where I hope to live freely I do not under any circumstances want to be told that I cannot come into my own bedroom.

In my case/example no one is ever being told that they can't come into the bedroom. IF the bedroom is not being used for sleeping THEN it is available for "other activities". If someone needs something out of the bedroom while it is being used for "other activities" then knock and come in. (The only things we keep in the bedroom are the bed, some of our clothes, sleeping people, and maybe a few books.)

Do you feel the same way when you are "locked out" of your own bathroom because someone else is using it temporarily?

Maybe some people are not as precious with their space as I am, I appreciate that..

Maybe we are just assigning our space differently.

For us - bedroom, kitchen, bathroom are "common use" areas. You can use them together or take turns or whatever - they don't "belong" to anyone.

"My space" in the house is my library/living room - it's where I keep all of MY stuff (mainly MY books). I get to decide what goes there, how it is arranged, who gets to be there, etc. MrS's space is the TV room/den - it's where he keeps all of HIS stuff, etc. Dude doesn't really have much stuff and doesn't seem to care if he has his own space (he could - we have a room that we use for storage that could be converted - it even has it's own entrance - no interest). So he just has his own desk area and closet.

...but the point is, you may not realise how you are until you experience the alternative and what happens when she moves 1000 miles and then realises that she feels a little crowded by it all? She is in a more vulnerable position than the dad and the lodger.

This, I think, IS the important point. There should definitely be a Plan B/C/Q...no one has a crystal ball.

And when she or the husband whoever are banned from the bedroom for sexy time what are they to do? Make small talk with the other occupants of the house?

Sure, why not? Presumably they don't live in the bedroom the whole REST of the day - what do they usually do when they are not in the bedroom? Read, watch TV, fart around on the computer, eat, talk on the phone, whatever.

When my FWB and her fiance come over and she and I head off to the bedroom for "sexy time" the boys usually watch a movie or play video games. Then we all go out to dinner.

JaneQ

 

[Knightshade]

Yes. But what if the left out partner then wants to have sex with his wife or her gf? Do they kick out the previously fucked person?

Well, in this case there is a platonic housemate friend and an ill elderly father around. So I kind of doubt the couch or living room floor is a good place for getting it on. Maybe the back yard. Maybe a bathroom.

Does Dad know about this woman coming to live with you? Your wife's lover, suddenly sharing your lives and bed?

We'll discuss it as it happens, thought we've both already expressed in more than one pretty lengthy conversation that we wouldn't be bothered by a 2 and 1 sexual situation in our bedroom. Honestly sex tends to make me sleepy, and I have no problem seeing to my own needs and passing right out. Couple that with the time they will most likely have without me even being home, and I don't really see it being that big a deal.

Tbh I'm more excited about the NON sexual aspects of this than the sexual ones. There are things that I'd really like to be doing that my wife doesn't want to do with me, that OF loves to do. And since my wife likes time alone to write, that seems like a great benefit for me out of this.

 

[Natja]

Honey if you even knew how many times I have been told "you don't know me/us..... I am sorry you had a bad experience.....we have excellent communication and know what we are all doing!!!" Only for it to crash and burn some months later and that person turns up crying into their cornflakes! You are not special.

 

[london]

The OP said "Our current configuration is a pretty straight V with my wife at the apex, but both the old flame and myself are open to it becoming a polyfi triad when we get to know (and hopefully love) each other better." That's what anyone should want to hear. That's "good poly". But no, people who are bitter and jaded by their own failed relationships have to come through with things like: "Just stop seeing a potential relationship with her as a possibility". Why should he stop seeing it as a possibility if it's something they have discussed and both may want? Because it offends you? Yes, people shouldn't form expectations from their metamours to start a sexual or romantic relationship with someone simply because they are metamours, but this isn't the case. This is something they both may want. That is something that develops organically. Discussing it doesn't invalidate how natural the progression was. What invalidates how organic a triad is is if one person always had the idea that poly people were obligated to sleep with metamours.

And this: " I can appreciate that you might not have the room but I honestly feel that bedroom sharing is the worst possible thing you can do.". Ok, it doesn't work for you, but um, who asked you to be in a relationship with any of these people? How do you know she didn't ask or doesn't prefer this arrangement? Because you don't, I guess.

I think that triads can be quite difficult to navigate; they have inherent challenges like any configuration. However, in the grand scheme of polyness, the OP sounds like they have a good chance of figuring this out. It might stay a vee, they might go on to a triad. Who knows? But he doesn't post any red flags for me. Not like the red flags obvious baggage and trust issues do, anyway.

 

[Knightshade]

Honey if you even knew how many times I have been told "you don't know me/us..... I am sorry you had a bad experience.....we have excellent communication and know what we are all doing!!!" Only for it to crash and burn some months later and that person turns up crying into their cornflakes! You are not special.

Please don't refer to me intimately. I do not resemble honey.

Actually better yet, since you have not a single constructive thing to really say to me, other than tell me how much my life is going to suck because you know better. I'd prefer we not speak at all.

I'm really surprised at how you've treated this, but everyone has their own way of looking at the world, and I didn't expect rainbows and buttercups.

I can also promise you, with full sincerity that were I to be crying in my cornflakes, it wouldn't be here.

The only reason I've even posted anything at all, is because I planned on asking questions down the road, and didn't want to do that without identifying myself in the community accepted way.

 

[london]

you can ignore that member, knightshade. Plenty of people do that to me. I like to actually see that which I consider stupidity though. We all need a laugh.