The Poly Adventure is Just Beginning

If she were willing to make that sacrifice for me, then I'd be more than willing to watch the baby for a few hours at home while she goes out to do something on her own.
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When you break this sentence down, this is how it reads:

"If..." - I'm sure you know how if influences a sentence's meaning. It basically says that something specific will happen providing certain criteria are met.

"she were willing to make that sacrifice" - here, you outline the criteria; she has to make a sacrifice in order for you to respond a particular way. We should clarify that you said the sacrifice was you wife permitting a "relationship with Penny". Ie a polyamorous marriage.

"then I'd be more than willing to watch the baby for a few hours" - here, you outline what your response will be to Mabel making a "sacrifice" and allowing you to have "a relationship with Penny". To reward her consent to polyamory, you will watch your baby and allow her space to do her own thing on occasion.




The problem is that most parents would do this anyway. Mom does it whilst Dad goes to Golf. Dad does it whilst Mom goes to a Spa. Stereotypical, mono and heteronormative and sexist examples, but you get the picture.
 
MightyMax said:
When you break this sentence down, this is how it reads:

"If..." - I'm sure you know how if influences a sentence's meaning. It basically says that something specific will happen providing certain criteria are met.

"she were willing to make that sacrifice" - here, you outline the criteria; she has to make a sacrifice in order for you to respond a particular way. We should clarify that you said the sacrifice was you wife permitting a "relationship with Penny". Ie a polyamorous marriage.

"then I'd be more than willing to watch the baby for a few hours" - here, you outline what your response will be to Mabel making a "sacrifice" and allowing you to have "a relationship with Penny". To reward her consent to polyamory, you will watch your baby and allow her space to do her own thing on occasion.




The problem is that most parents would do this anyway. Mom does it whilst Dad goes to Golf. Dad does it whilst Mom goes to a Spa. Stereotypical, mono and heteronormative and sexist examples, but you get the picture.
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What's wrong with what I've said now? That I think my wife deserves to go pamper herself while I watch the kid because she's able to let me go off and do something on my own occasionally? Isn't that one of the things that mono spouses can do to keep their jealousy in check? I'm just saying it's an extremely good idea and I'd encourage her to do that even more when I went out on a date than if I wasn't.

Now go pick this apart and rake me over the coals.
 
FallenAngelina said:
If this is your take-away from what I wrote, then we're miles apart in our understanding of how relationships work. I wish you well.
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No, I felt like your post was something I should aspire to and I was just lamenting how difficult it will be to reach it.
 
nycindie said:
Tron, just wondering how the therapy session went. Did you get anything out of it? Did the therapist say anything about poly, Penny, etc.?
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It was only an hourlong session and I spent most of the time just filling the therapist in on everything. Even in an hour, I didn't cover everything. I got most of the major events, but a lot of important nuances and other details were left out.

One thing he said at the end was that it was possible for polys to go back to monogamy, but it probably wasn't possible for monos to go into poly. I'm not sure he knew what I was hoping to do and we started to talk about it a little bit. He wanted to know what I wanted to get from the therapy and I said just to explore each option...of making the marriage work or working out other plans. He said if I decided to make the marriage work, of course Mabel would have to work with me.

The thing that seemed to perplex him the most was how Mabel just came up with the open relationship out of the blue and why. I explained the disinterest aspect of it (in fact, I opened with it), but he kept coming back to it asking questions about it. He also noted the irony that I'd found someone during the open relationship, just like Mabel intended, and Mabel later got mad about it. He also seem intrigued by the idea that talking to Penny eliminated my need to look at porn because I'd just forget to look at it, mostly. Not because talking with Penny was so sexual, but just something about it satisfied the need.

I was hoping to just email him and fill him in on a few things I forgot to mention just so we could start further along in the next session, but is that something best left for the session itself? I know it's more time on the clock for him and if I take longer to fill him in, that's more money he makes, but it's not very efficient.
 
Nothing much happens in a first session but backstory.

You're a good writer, you could email him. Some therapists and drs respond well to emails, some don't.

I wonder why he thought it was strange you stopped looking at porn when you fell for P. Jeez, has he decided you're a sex addict already? :eek:
 
Magdlyn said:
Nothing much happens in a first session but backstory.

You're a good writer, you could email him. Some therapists and drs respond well to emails, some don't.

I wonder why he thought it was strange you stopped looking at porn when you fell for P. Jeez, has he decided you're a sex addict already? :eek:
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I don't think he thought that. He didn't really say anything. He just said, "Hmm!" like he was surprised and jotted down some notes. He didn't seem to expect to hear me say that.

Also, I emailed him on Friday, asking what he'd prefer me to do about emailing the rest of the story, but I haven't heard back. Then again, I think he's extremely busy and is probably too busy to reply. Or maybe he's so busy he thought he did already lol.
 
You seem to be clinging to the 'if only' of your situation rather than focussing on the reality and I think this is preventing you from moving on. You keep saying in various ways that if only Mabel could agree to polyamory, let go of her religious biases and snap judgements, etc then she would see how good it would be for your marriage and actually benefit from it as well. This may be completely true and she may not realise what she is missing however, the fact the remains that she is not open to it at all.

I do think it was wrong of her to plant the seed in your mind which allowed you to find Penny in the first place only to take it away. But, at the same time, she may have thought it was a good idea in theory but when she experienced the reality she found it was not something she could live with. This happens often (it was definitely something I struggled with when the reality of poly first came up in my relationship) and she has every right to withdraw her consent for an open marriage if she feels it is not for her.

You need to stop wishing for her to change her mind and decide whether you can love her as she is (monogamous) and be what she needs you to be (monogamous) or if you feel that is too much of a sacrifice for you to make. If it is the latter then the only ethical option is to walk away, part amicably and allow her to find someone who will give her the relationship she needs. This will not prevent you from being in your child's life unless you allow it to. It may be hard going against the wishes of family and friends and incurring their disappointment but it will be worth it if it means you are happy in the long run. They should not control your life to the point of making you stay in a situation which makes you miserable.

I truly empathise with your situation, it sucks, and hope you can find happiness in the future whether you choose to stay or leave.
 
tronprogram said:
What's wrong with what I've said now? That I think my wife deserves to go pamper herself while I watch the kid because she's able to let me go off and do something on my own occasionally? Isn't that one of the things that mono spouses can do to keep their jealousy in check? I'm just saying it's an extremely good idea and I'd encourage her to do that even more when I went out on a date than if I wasn't.
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What I see is wrong with what you said is that your original statement states that for you helping out with your child would be contingent in some way on your wife agreeing to a poly relationship.

I don't think that's actually what you mean. Reading what you've said above sounds as if you'd seek to help out so that your wife can go out and enjoy some child free time anyway but that you'd be even more mindful of the need to do that if you were dating somebody else.

In your very first post, you said that one of the problems in your marriage is that your wife was feeling as if you had checked out, were not willing to help out around the house etc. You also said that your wife looked on opening the relationship as a way to end it while you looked on opening the relationship as a way to improve your marriage.

Do you think that some of the difficulties you and your wife experience could be because there is a general lack of understanding between you and your wife about what each of you mean? I think that for everybody communication is difficult - it's easy to forget that the other person can't see into our minds to understand the full meaning. Easy too to then get irritated when somebody takes a statement in a different way than it was intended. From there, arguments and annoyance at each other can soon follow. If that's been going on in your marriage for a while, it is easy to see how things can have become so difficult between you.

This discussion is, for me, a possible snap shot of that sort of thing. You made a statement that wasn't quite what you meant to say. A couple of people on the board picked up on it and pointed out that it wasn't a great way to behave. You then came back in what seems like a fairly irritated way and explained yourself. If this is typical of how communication goes in your world in real life as well as in written communication, I can see how difficulties and resentments could build up over the years.

For clarity, I'm taking this as an indication of irritation:

Now go pick this apart and rake me over the coals.
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For clarity also - this isn't an attempt to pick anything apart or rake you over the coals. It's just an observation of how this communication is going as well as an observation that difficulty in communication is something you've raised as a problem already in this thread.

In my experience, how I see my life and how I have built happiness in my life has lots to do with communication. The written, verbal and non-verbal communication I have with others really matters when it comes to building and maintaining good relationships that are filled with joy rather than irritation. Most importantly also is, my own internal narrative and communication with myself about my life, the direction I want it to take, the people I want to have in it and how I see myself and the world around me.

If communication is hard for you, I think it will be difficult for you to live a happy and fulfilled life.

IP
 
tronprogram said:
What's wrong with what I've said now? That I think my wife deserves to go pamper herself while I watch the kid because she's able to let me go off and do something on my own occasionally? Isn't that one of the things that mono spouses can do to keep their jealousy in check? I'm just saying it's an extremely good idea and I'd encourage her to do that even more when I went out on a date than if I wasn't.

Now go pick this apart and rake me over the coals.
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Why would you do it more if she permits polyamory than if she doesn't? I doubt that "I'll have to watch the baby more" is at the top of the list of reasons a monogamous person does not want to open their marriage.

I'm not going to reply to this thread anymore, but I will say that I strongly suggest that you put this polyamory thing on the backburner for a year or so. This really isn't the time for it. Yes, it's a little unfair that your wife suggested it and then found that she wasn't happy with an open marriage, but that is the reality of trying something new. Penny isn't the only woman that is compatible with you. There are plenty more fish in the sea. Why not focus on being a father and co-parent for now? That's a really big obligation you created and need to see through before you can really say whether you have the resources for other relationships.
 
InfinitePossibility said:
What I see is wrong with what you said is that your original statement states that for you helping out with your child would be contingent in some way on your wife agreeing to a poly relationship.

I don't think that's actually what you mean. Reading what you've said above sounds as if you'd seek to help out so that your wife can go out and enjoy some child free time anyway but that you'd be even more mindful of the need to do that if you were dating somebody else.
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Yes, the way you rephrased it is exactly what I meant. If she thought going out and leaving me with the baby after I'd had a stressful day at work was asking too much of me, that's when I'd consider my dating and tell her to go out anyway. But I'd want to show the occasional grace under pressure anyway, not just because I'm dating. Just moreso if I was dating.

In your very first post, you said that one of the problems in your marriage is that your wife was feeling as if you had checked out, were not willing to help out around the house etc. You also said that your wife looked on opening the relationship as a way to end it while you looked on opening the relationship as a way to improve your marriage.

Do you think that some of the difficulties you and your wife experience could be because there is a general lack of understanding between you and your wife about what each of you mean? I think that for everybody communication is difficult - it's easy to forget that the other person can't see into our minds to understand the full meaning. Easy too to then get irritated when somebody takes a statement in a different way than it was intended. From there, arguments and annoyance at each other can soon follow. If that's been going on in your marriage for a while, it is easy to see how things can have become so difficult between you.

This discussion is, for me, a possible snap shot of that sort of thing. You made a statement that wasn't quite what you meant to say. A couple of people on the board picked up on it and pointed out that it wasn't a great way to behave. You then came back in what seems like a fairly irritated way and explained yourself. If this is typical of how communication goes in your world in real life as well as in written communication, I can see how difficulties and resentments could build up over the years.
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It's entirely possible. Whenever I feel like I'm not being understood, though, I do try to rephrase and reiterate as best I can until I am understood. At one point, Mabel and I used to be great at communicating, but it might've been about issues that weren't that important to us. We'd do the active listening technique, where we'd listen to what the other person is saying and repeat it back to them to assure them we heard correctly. Then we'd go back and forth about that.

[quote[For clarity also - this isn't an attempt to pick anything apart or rake you over the coals. It's just an observation of how this communication is going as well as an observation that difficulty in communication is something you've raised as a problem already in this thread.[/quote]

While, yes, I've had difficulty explaining myself at times, I feel like much of this is on Mabel. Her refusal to talk about this as much as I've wanted to has been downright impossible at times. Very rarely does she seem open to what I have to say without being defensive or concerned about me. She doesn't demonstrate that she wants to better understand what I'm going through or why. She wants to bury it ASAP and wishes I'd go back to normal (mono).

In my experience, how I see my life and how I have built happiness in my life has lots to do with communication. The written, verbal and non-verbal communication I have with others really matters when it comes to building and maintaining good relationships that are filled with joy rather than irritation. Most importantly also is, my own internal narrative and communication with myself about my life, the direction I want it to take, the people I want to have in it and how I see myself and the world around me.

If communication is hard for you, I think it will be difficult for you to live a happy and fulfilled life.

IP
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It usually isn't this hard, but maybe I've just gotten comfortable and too relaxed about it?
 
MightyMax said:
Why would you do it more if she permits polyamory than if she doesn't? I doubt that "I'll have to watch the baby more" is at the top of the list of reasons a monogamous person does not want to open their marriage.
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As I said above, if Mabel didn't want to go out and leave me with the baby after I'd had a tough day at work, I'd consider how nice it is that she lets me date someone else and tell her to go out anyway. I'd still try to do this even if I wasn't dating someone just because I should. I'm just saying that if she let me date, then that would be more incentive to do that or do it more often.
 
tronprogram said:
As I said above, if Mabel didn't want to go out and leave me with the baby after I'd had a tough day at work, I'd consider how nice it is that she lets me date someone else and tell her to go out anyway. I'd still try to do this even if I wasn't dating someone just because I should. I'm just saying that if she let me date, then that would be more incentive to do that or do it more often.
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Just when I thought we had reached the basement of your self centered poly delusions I find out you have an underground parking garage .

Dude my advice is stop posting your grand schemes to convince your poor wife to go along with poly. You're just making yourself look worse and worse. Polly probably would run screaming if she saw what you have posted. There is nothing ethical about what you want.
 
Dagferi said:
Just when I thought we had reached the basement of your self centered poly delusions I find out you have an underground parking garage .

Dude my advice is stop posting your grand schemes to convince your poor wife to go along with poly. You're just making yourself look worse and worse. Polly probably would run screaming if she saw what you have posted. There is nothing ethical about what you want.
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I would want to find extra ways (beyond the regular, just-because-she's-my-wife ways) to be considerate towards Mabel because she would be considerate of my poly. Several people told polywanna on another thread that that's how it should work. Her husband should be considerate of her poly because she's considerate of his CD. If Mabel is considerate of my poly, how can I be considerate toward her? Being ethical and communicating are givens, but how else am I supposed to do it if not through things like watching the baby on days that I'm really tired but Mabel wants to hang out with friends?
 
tronprogram said:
It usually isn't this hard, but maybe I've just gotten comfortable and too relaxed about it?
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That may well be the case.

tronprogram said:
While, yes, I've had difficulty explaining myself at times, I feel like much of this is on Mabel.
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I would suspect that it is much more likely that an inability to communicate well is coming from both of you. Communication is a two way thing and it is very rare for one person to be fully responsible for difficulties.

Maybe when things are important to you, you don't explain well or become defensive yourself.

Reading back through this thread may be helpful. Here you are trying to explain your situation to a poly community. These are the very people who you should find understanding from. You are clear for much of this that you feel you've behaved ethically and continue to do so. You are clear in much of this that you consider yourself a loving partner. More - that poly would enable you to be more loving. This thread has been going on for a while.

Yet much of this long communication with a number of people has involved people telling you that they think your behaviour is disgusting, that you are unethical, unkind and behaving very badly toward your wife. Getting to understand what you mean sometimes requires picking apart of what you've said.

The community here are good at communicating and do not, in my experience, have a tendency toward picking on people. So what is going wrong for you? Is it that everybody who disagrees that has a problem? Are you being clear and they are right - you are behaving very badly? Is your communication on this important subject murky and difficult to understand?

Her refusal to talk about this as much as I've wanted to has been downright impossible at times. Very rarely does she seem open to what I have to say without being defensive or concerned about me. She doesn't demonstrate that she wants to better understand what I'm going through or why.
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This may well be a timing thing. I'd guess that not all that long after you broke Mabel's trust and when she is pregnant after a long time of trying is simply not a good time to be discussing poly.

I think that if I were in Mabel's shoes I would be very unwilling to have a discussion about poly or your feelings about it at this time.

A big part of good communication is timing and this timing seems all wrong.

If I were you I'd put poly out of my head for a few years and concentrate on being an excellent husband and father. Then look at discussing the poly thing again then.
 
Dagferi said:
Just when I thought we had reached the basement of your self centered poly delusions I find out you have an underground parking garage.
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bahahahahaha, omg, gold.
 
InfinitePossibility said:
If I were you I'd put poly out of my head for a few years and concentrate on being an excellent husband and father. Then look at discussing the poly thing again then.
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Yep, Tron. Remember, with my analogy that the sun will always continue to rise. It's only dawn. You don't need to rush to midday.
 
Just when I thought we had reached the basement of your self centered poly delusions I find out you have an underground parking garage .
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Sorry, I didn't fully appreciate how utterly hilarious this comment is first time around.
 
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