Unfortunatelly, we're not immune to human errors just because we've already worked through some stuff
Anyway, I get it.
The story of Spork.
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Anyway, I get it.
Spork
Active member
Unfortunatelly, we're not immune to human errors just because we've already worked through some stuff
Anyway, I get it.
It's true.
And I've got a habit of letting bigger and more general aggravations I've run into so many times in many areas, color my feelings about a topic, and makes it hard to focus ONLY on the subject matter of the thread without trying to make a bigger deal out of it.
That last post from ArtemisHunt? Was very good. And at that point, I felt like if I respond at all anymore there, I am trying to have the last word. That post deserves to be the last word, at least for the part where we were going back and forth...I didn't want to continue that. And she says she has blocked me anyhow.
But yes that was a very good post.
And I am glad she actually was getting valuable stuff from other perspectives, there was a point where I didn't get the feeling that was happening.
Damn, I ruined the last post thing
Yes exactly --- and that seems to be one of the main problems in the discussion. Communication is hard
Spork
Active member
Damn, I ruined the last post thing
Yes exactly --- and that seems to be one of the main problems in the discussion. Communication is hard
Well, I didn't mean it had to be the absolute last word, but between her and me, since we seemed to be fussing at one another, that post seemed a good place for me to (respectfully) let it lie.
Especially as someone who tries to both preach and practice a "live and let live" approach, I need to bet better at ...non-violent communication, maybe?... realizing when I am arguing my position too aggressively and it did not need to get there, and when it's better to step back and chill.
...................
So I had mentioned a friend of Zen's, who gets all piss-tastic over me talking about kink to other muggles he's tight with, namely his cop buddy, or his wife. I am "not allowed" to bring up "that weird stuff" around the wife because "she doesn't like it." But she won't tell me she doesn't. I have to take his word for it. And when I communicated things to the cop buddy, cop went to Zen's friend and talked shit, never did respond to me in any way, and then the friend went to Zen and bitched, and then it came back to me via Zen. After that, I was like "nah, fuck this" regarding that whole pack o' people. Triangulation is problematic and I have serious issues when the cop, and the wife, neither are somehow able to directly speak their position to me (or Zen) but needs must go through Mr. Ego. The guy comes off as manipulative and controlling and meddlesome and I do not dig it.
So my position was, I have no desire to interfere in a friendship that means something to my Zen. But I can back it off to a place of chill, cordial acquaintanceship, common human courtesy as you'd show any random human in the world, and we do not have to be bosom buddies. Not everybody has to like everybody...but I will not EVER tell my guy to change how he relates to other people, just to appease me in some way, that is shit behavior, and I bloody won't. I respect their friendship. But I don't feel I should have to participate, if I don't wanna.
Well Zen tried to communicate that to his friend over lunch, after the friend said he "wants to hang out" with us. I do not want to "hang out" with him. I just don't. Every "hang out" session is going to feel like I'm submitting to his attempts to manipulate and control me to censor myself and be something that he finds comfortable. I didn't consent to change my demeanor for his comfort. But I also don't want to cause drama for Zen in his social spheres. But oh fucking no, that's not good enough for the friend, to just let me have a nice, comfortable, neutral, cordial distance. Nope. He's gotta try and fix this somehow, he figures. Well of course, the picture doesn't look how he wants, so he has to try and control it until it does. Also, he wants access to his buddy Zen, ANY TIME he demands it, and me being a potential alternative to that primacy probably doesn't sit too sweet with him. So getting me on board, means he can demand we both come hang with him anytime he wants. No way could he simply let Zen make that choice for himself. I would be happy to give up some of my Zen time if he wanted to hang out with his friend, I have tons of shit to do in life, much as I adore Zen, I don't see this as having to be a competition.
The guy thinks he's real slick and shmoozy and amiable and he can win anybody over, but it simply ain't so, and if he pushes me too hard it's gonna end up in a confrontation. I'm not thrilled about that, but if that's how it has to be, then we might have to go there. Basically, I'm trying my best to diplomatically retreat...if he follows me into my den, I might metaphorically bite his face off a bit. If only to unambiguously state that he has no authority or moral or existential high ground over me whatsoever, zero right to tell me what to say or how to act or who to be in any circumstance, and no entitlement to my friendship. I've put up with pushy people demanding that I be someone I'm not to suit their needs ENOUGH in my life and I'm about fed up with it. Especially men overcompensating for their unresolved issues and fragile egos with controlling and manipulative behavior.
He thinks, for some reason, that my desire to talk about the kink part of my life, is somehow me trying to "convert" people...which it is not. I don't go around demanding that everybody do the things I enjoy, that's ridiculous. But asking me to never bring it up or mention it? Goes hand in hand with his stupid assumption that it is all "weird sex stuff" which it isn't. It's community, it's the most active part of my life outside of work, it's my social life, it's where I'm marketing my art, it's group therapy (literally in the discussion groups I attend at least 4 times a month)...it's exciting experiences and fun times, and yeah, occasionally there is some overlap with my sex life. Asking me to never talk about it...is asking me to try and omit a tremendous part, and by far one of the happiest parts, of my existence right now. And yet that might not be a big deal if he could admit it was HIS discomfort driving the request. But no, he's got to speak on behalf of other as though he's God's personal representative in these parts (sorry, Yellowbeard reference)...I mean, who elected you to speak on behalf of others like that? It bugs the shit outta me. If his friend and his wife can't speak for themselves, I don't want to be friends with them especially either.
But worst of all in my observation of how he behaves socially with other people, that really makes me want to say "I'm not your buddy, guy" is that it is really, really easy for me to imagine him one day trying to put words in my mouth to Zen, or Zen's mouth to me, I do not want him acting as a mouthpiece in the middle of my relationship, or trying to, EVER. And I think he sees me as a potential threat to his friendship with Zen, which bugs me, too... I just think that letting my relationship with Zen, and Zen's relationship with his friend, exist independently and separately, seems safest for all concerned. But I feel like if I don't capitulate and do anything he wants, he'll try and "bros before ho's" this whole thing. Kind of, "I get my way or you're out." I don't imagine it would work, but I would hate for Zen to be in that position.
He once observed, he thinks I slightly resemble Yoko Ono, and then with his "ain't I clever?" grin, leaned to Zen and said to me, "So don't break up the Beatles, OK? Huh?" Fucks sakes. No, I won't break up the Beatles, but that doesn't mean I have to join the band, dude...
JaneQSmythe
Well-known member
People are SOOO different - this is a GOOD thing.
Celebrities, porn, strip clubs - none of this feels threatening to me because I view these women as NOT accessible. They are in the "look, but don't touch" category, like going to a museum. I feel that I am a superior alternative because I am here, I am real, you can touch me.
I am also not afraid of cheating or a break-up, I am afraid of hurting people that I care about, "letting" someone have feelings for me feels like a HUGE responsibility.
From your link -
I have always known that I was "emotionally unavailable" but neither me nor anyone else seems to know WHY. I never lamented this - I embraced it and encouraged it. I figured that anyone who broke through these walls must be REALLY worthy of my attention (which has proven to be the case).
Celebrities, porn, strip clubs - none of this feels threatening to me because I view these women as NOT accessible. They are in the "look, but don't touch" category, like going to a museum. I feel that I am a superior alternative because I am here, I am real, you can touch me
.I am also not afraid of cheating or a break-up, I am afraid of hurting people that I care about, "letting" someone have feelings for me feels like a HUGE responsibility.
From your link -
I have always known that I was "emotionally unavailable" but neither me nor anyone else seems to know WHY. I never lamented this - I embraced it and encouraged it. I figured that anyone who broke through these walls must be REALLY worthy of my attention (which has proven to be the case
).
GirlFromTexlahoma
New member
Spork, I just wanted to say I feel you on the "tone policing" thing that's been showing up here lately. It's gotten to where I'm wary of commenting anywhere but the blog section. Seems like someone is always jumping in to say that certain kinds of feedback are unhelpful... Not any one in particular, just feels like I see a lot of that lately. I'd like this to be a place where all perspectives are welcome, where digressions and tangents can add to the main point instead of being dismissed.
Spork
Active member
People are SOOO different - this is a GOOD thing.
Celebrities, porn, strip clubs - none of this feels threatening to me because I view these women as NOT accessible. They are in the "look, but don't touch" category, like going to a museum. I feel that I am a superior alternative because I am here, I am real, you can touch me
I am also not afraid of cheating or a break-up, I am afraid of hurting people that I care about, "letting" someone have feelings for me feels like a HUGE responsibility.
From your link -
I have always known that I was "emotionally unavailable" but neither me nor anyone else seems to know WHY. I never lamented this - I embraced it and encouraged it. I figured that anyone who broke through these walls must be REALLY worthy of my attention (which has proven to be the case
Well, in conjunction with the fear of being disappointing, is the fact that if I am existing as self-validated Spork, confident on my own merits for the things I feel strong in, I'm not focusing on my looks very much. I see the real me as being made up of my thoughts, feelings, perspectives, stories, talents, tastes, opinions, abilities, the things that live in my brain and the services I have to offer others in validation and emotional currency.
I don't look at myself and see a hot babe. And I feel that when men enjoy celebrities, strippers, porn...they don't care about any of the things that make me good, only the thing that I lack, which is feminine beauty...and I don't necessarily think that I'm hideous, just that it isn't something I can excel at so why put my energy there? If I cannot win, why compete? I mean, when you choose competitive activities in life to do, do you choose the ones you are disinterested in and not very good at, or the ones that are exciting to you and you feel good about your skills in? I can make a badass piece of fantasy art, but please don't ask me to artfully style my eyelashes or apply makeup that will last more than ten minutes or do anything much with my hair besides braiding it at the most. I can't wear heels, I have a tumor on my nose, I have all of these silly things that are not "pretty" and I have to accept them about myself, and love myself anyways. And I do! Because I CAN make a cool piece of fantasy art, because I have stories to tell, because of WHO I am. But men's love of those other women, resonates in my heart as proof that none of that counts. Only, to them, the contest I cannot be part of. Which means they might settle for me, but if they could have what they dreamed of, it sure would not be me. It would be a pretty girl and who gives a hot damn what she knows or thinks or can do, so long as she smiles and blushes and doesn't tell you to fuck off.
So we talked in a discussion group last week about how most of the women there are so much more critical of themselves than they would ever be, of anyone else. And than anyone else is, of them. Maybe that is true...but I have personally seized hold of the few things I feel good about within myself and elevated their importance TO myself, so that I can have some self esteem and some confidence. The hard part, is believing that they hold any merit to anybody else.
Which, when that is eating at me, can make me seem cold, distant, and yes, emotionally unavailable in a way...because the only defense if you believe that people only value something you are not, is to not care what they think. Paradoxically the less I seem to care what anyone thinks, the more other people like me (I think because my defensive "don't give a fuck" attitude comes off as confidence.) But maybe unlike the author of the article, I HAVE had my heart broken, at least a few times. Statistically though, an intimate partner has about a 12% chance of getting past my defenses. And of those few, Zen is the first who has not, in fairly short order, rejected me as soon as I showed vulnerability or attachment.
But ultimately what it all comes back to, in my analysis of these emotional difficulties, is that I have trouble holding onto faith that another person has genuine love for ME. Is not looking critically at me for my flaws, for reasons to be disappointed with what they've got in me. And that goes straight back to childhood, there is no way around it. I keep questioning what should be BEYOND question, because it was programmed into my brain to do so.
So again...well and good to figure that shit out, and yay me for understanding myself, alright...but I'm still trying to figure out where I go from here, beyond being able to say, when I feel those feels, "Ah yes, it's that tired old trope again, playing out in my brainspace. Can we just fast forward through it, I've seen this episode 100 times already..."
Frankly I'm convinced that, in the spirit of the "emotion vs. logic" subject, we sometimes take these emotional reactions to things, and we gather all of these sticks of logic, and we build this whole structure around the emotion, to give it form and substance, and to enshrine it and justify and reinforce it...we build ourselves this little fortress of supposed facts to try and make it defensible and sound. But our little justifications don't matter much really. That's just a flimsy tower of sticks built on a shifting and nebulous foundation, and instead of defending it, I've been trying to figure out what it's doing there in the first place. What is its origin, its function, does it serve a purpose or does it seek to make me serve it, contrary to my own best interests, slavishly? Yet recognizing that it has no utility, and seeing its hold on me, and wanting to break it, has not yet made it simple to banish, though turbulent emotions have troubled me less over time, it's never been as easy as saying, "Oh. This feeling is dumb and makes no sense. Begone!"
EDIT: Actually I think it is part of the exercise in talking about the difficult feelings, metaphorically speaking when I find myself mentally gathering sticks, instead of busily building a fortress out of them, I have instead tried to look closely at them, and set them back down, dismiss them if you will, the thoughts that arise to try and "explain" my feeling to myself, the words and logics that my mind tries to use to defend that vulnerable squishy thing, that mucky emotion. Instead, I am just letting it sit there, being all vulnerable. Once in a while pointing it out to a passerby and saying, "Hey. Look at that. What do you think of that?" The sticks are on the ground. They're just sticks. I've showed the squishy emotional self to a number of people, and no disaster has happened. No one has run screaming, or given me a hard time, or yelled at me or attacked, or hurt me because of it. The sky has not fallen. Once in a while the emotion moves around and makes noises, but mostly it is kinda...dormant. Still there, where I can calmly look at it. So...I do. And the sun still shines and the birds still sing, man, and here we are. Just me, and my baggage, and my sticks and my blog. lol
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Spork
Active member
So! Enough head stuff and weird metaphors. I'll talk about what actual stuff has happened this weekend.
I went Friday night and ran some important errands down to the south side of town, where my old house I used to share with Old Wolf is and my older son lives with friends (not in that house, elsewhere, but same part of town.) Visited both the tenants and my kiddo. Consensus is that if the boy does not get his act together and start producing some verifiable results in his schoolwork, he is going to lose some privileges. He's been pulling the wool over the eyes of the family he stays with, but I've been checking his grades online every day. He says he has turned in one missing assignment and is nearly done with another, and I told him he's got to make sure his teacher updates the website, and his grade.
And the woman of the household, that Old Wolf is renting the house to, is in the hospital today. They are inducing her, she is having her twins, at 36 weeks. They would not let her go longer. Maybe they are too big, I don't know...but they will be in NICU for an unknown period of time, and her along with, leaving her two men to manage the household back home without her. I took her some small gifts and spent some time there on Friday. I hope everything goes well for them. When this is through, there will be seven children for them to wrangle...I don't envy them one bit.
So I got those things accomplished and got back up north. I was a bit concerned about the snow we were expecting, but it never really accumulated on the roads (I was hoping that would be the case, but you never really can tell what will happen, and the forecasters were being all dramatic about it.) Spent the night with Zen, and we stayed in his bed for about 15 hours straight, alternating sleep and snuggles and sex. Eventually we got hungry and got up and went to my place, where I cooked spaghetti and we watched Guardians of the Galaxy. Then back to his place for more sex and snuggles and snoozing and finally I went home for the weekend Saturday night. Sometimes, a weekend like that is just what one needs. We did not go to the party at Voodoo, between the snow and my tight budget right now and our combined sheer laziness I think we just didn't really feel like being out much.
Sunday, I went to help our musician friend, Reecy, southern-fried vaudeville on a ukulele and absolute delight, get moved into her new digs. I managed to put a new dent in my new van. I feel like a moron but I'm not too bent outta shape about it. I was trying to back the behemoth into a driveway...it seemed a nice, wide driveway, didn't really think it was going to be a problem, and I was looking behind and avoiding some mailboxes, when -crunch-... They had this low border around the lawn there, a few pieces of log stacked with big metal spikes holding them in place, maybe a foot or two high...just high enough to terrace the yard a little bit, and to dent my back bumper, but not high enough for me to SEE. I was visually maneuvering between the mailboxes and a parked car on the other side, and backed right into the wood border thing. Fortunately I did not damage the wood in a way that anyone was going to care about, it was all my bumper that was affected, and since I was the cause I'm not liable for anyone else's damaged property, and that's fine and good.
I still have a big ol' dent in my back bumper now, which is only a cosmetic flaw, but I get to feel like a jackass for it. Meh, whatever. *sigh* Shit happens I guess?
So we got Reecy moved in, and that was the only thing of note that occurred. I felt a little mentally hazy for most of the day. I was having trouble finding things to talk about and maintaining a train of thought without rambling. It got a little better later on. Reecy invited us all out for drinks. I declined, and so did Fire, (Fire and Hefe were also there helping with the moving) because we both had things to do. Well, I was going to take her home and then head home and do laundry and stuff, but I took her home and ended up chatting about Voodoo, tossing ideas around for facilitating improvements in operations and such, and it got all late and before you knew it, Reecy and Hefe were back from getting drinks and we were still sitting there talking...Reecy rounded up her dog and went home, and Fire and Hefe and I ended up popping out for Mexican food. I didn't get home until almost 10, and I went straight to bed. So much for the laundry, but it's fine. It can wait.
It was just really good to spend some time with them, and I enjoyed talking to Fire. Felt like I was able to get my head back together a bit on and off there and contribute some useful thoughts. Tonight the MFQ, who has stepped down from leadership of Voodoo but is thankfully maintaining a tether to the community, is hosting a discussion group about Leather philosophy, at a place called Alchemy, on the west side. I have never been there. I hope it isn't too loud and we can talk, but I'll be happy enough to get some time with good people.
I went Friday night and ran some important errands down to the south side of town, where my old house I used to share with Old Wolf is and my older son lives with friends (not in that house, elsewhere, but same part of town.) Visited both the tenants and my kiddo. Consensus is that if the boy does not get his act together and start producing some verifiable results in his schoolwork, he is going to lose some privileges. He's been pulling the wool over the eyes of the family he stays with, but I've been checking his grades online every day. He says he has turned in one missing assignment and is nearly done with another, and I told him he's got to make sure his teacher updates the website, and his grade.
And the woman of the household, that Old Wolf is renting the house to, is in the hospital today. They are inducing her, she is having her twins, at 36 weeks. They would not let her go longer. Maybe they are too big, I don't know...but they will be in NICU for an unknown period of time, and her along with, leaving her two men to manage the household back home without her. I took her some small gifts and spent some time there on Friday. I hope everything goes well for them. When this is through, there will be seven children for them to wrangle...I don't envy them one bit.
So I got those things accomplished and got back up north. I was a bit concerned about the snow we were expecting, but it never really accumulated on the roads (I was hoping that would be the case, but you never really can tell what will happen, and the forecasters were being all dramatic about it.) Spent the night with Zen, and we stayed in his bed for about 15 hours straight, alternating sleep and snuggles and sex. Eventually we got hungry and got up and went to my place, where I cooked spaghetti and we watched Guardians of the Galaxy. Then back to his place for more sex and snuggles and snoozing and finally I went home for the weekend Saturday night. Sometimes, a weekend like that is just what one needs. We did not go to the party at Voodoo, between the snow and my tight budget right now and our combined sheer laziness I think we just didn't really feel like being out much.
Sunday, I went to help our musician friend, Reecy, southern-fried vaudeville on a ukulele and absolute delight, get moved into her new digs. I managed to put a new dent in my new van. I feel like a moron but I'm not too bent outta shape about it. I was trying to back the behemoth into a driveway...it seemed a nice, wide driveway, didn't really think it was going to be a problem, and I was looking behind and avoiding some mailboxes, when -crunch-... They had this low border around the lawn there, a few pieces of log stacked with big metal spikes holding them in place, maybe a foot or two high...just high enough to terrace the yard a little bit, and to dent my back bumper, but not high enough for me to SEE. I was visually maneuvering between the mailboxes and a parked car on the other side, and backed right into the wood border thing. Fortunately I did not damage the wood in a way that anyone was going to care about, it was all my bumper that was affected, and since I was the cause I'm not liable for anyone else's damaged property, and that's fine and good.
I still have a big ol' dent in my back bumper now, which is only a cosmetic flaw, but I get to feel like a jackass for it. Meh, whatever. *sigh* Shit happens I guess?
So we got Reecy moved in, and that was the only thing of note that occurred. I felt a little mentally hazy for most of the day. I was having trouble finding things to talk about and maintaining a train of thought without rambling. It got a little better later on. Reecy invited us all out for drinks. I declined, and so did Fire, (Fire and Hefe were also there helping with the moving) because we both had things to do. Well, I was going to take her home and then head home and do laundry and stuff, but I took her home and ended up chatting about Voodoo, tossing ideas around for facilitating improvements in operations and such, and it got all late and before you knew it, Reecy and Hefe were back from getting drinks and we were still sitting there talking...Reecy rounded up her dog and went home, and Fire and Hefe and I ended up popping out for Mexican food. I didn't get home until almost 10, and I went straight to bed. So much for the laundry, but it's fine. It can wait.
It was just really good to spend some time with them, and I enjoyed talking to Fire. Felt like I was able to get my head back together a bit on and off there and contribute some useful thoughts. Tonight the MFQ, who has stepped down from leadership of Voodoo but is thankfully maintaining a tether to the community, is hosting a discussion group about Leather philosophy, at a place called Alchemy, on the west side. I have never been there. I hope it isn't too loud and we can talk, but I'll be happy enough to get some time with good people.
Spork
Active member
Hm, well. We went to Alchemy last night for the new Leather Philosophy discussion group. Alchemy is supposedly a "gastropub" (which does not sound very appetizing to me, like...it sounds like something that would give a person horrible gas?) But it was a quaint little spot. Our seating was not the best for a discussion group. The music wasn't TOO loud, but between that and the buzz of conversation in the space, it was hard to hear people at the other end of the table. And we were in a row of about three booth benches, then tables, then chairs on the other side, so sort of strung out lengthwise. I could converse comfortably with about three people, another few if I leaned, but the ones down at the end were a lost cause.
And Leather Philosophy? Well again as with so much in the realm of kink... We had some people who said "I live it, I've lived it forever" and one who said "I'm kind of new, only 7 years in the Leather Lifestyle" and one friend who is the actual state title holder for "Mr. Leather Colorado" but he's so young, he's been involved in all this for only a few years...and then the rest of us who were just like, "What's all this then? I'm here to hang out with my friends."
And the MFQ, who lives what she calls a philosophy of "Pirate Leather."
But no one can agree as to what it IS, we could only talk about what it means to us, and opinions varied a lot. Community seems invariably central to it, which makes sense...integrity and authenticity, too. OK. For me, I could only repeat what I'd said in a previous group ages ago when I tried to explain that, though I know we are talking about Leather the concept, not necessarily Leather the material, I am reminded of being a teenager...awkward, kind of insecure, still figuring out who I was like any teenager...and donning this angle-length leather trenchcoat my mother gave me. The thing came to feel like armor. And there is something about leather (the hide) that has a way of making you feel really badass, even when inside you maybe aren't.
Now that I'm writing and can process a bit better, maybe the idea I wanted to convey is...the courage to stand where you are, to stand your ground even if you are not like everybody else, and maybe they don't like you or can't identify with you, the courage to still be your own self and the strength to hold onto that, even if the world around you feels hostile. And of course in life when you do that, others who wish to do the same will gravitate together, and you end up with the "shoulder to shoulder, hide to hide" of Leather the community. Everyone giving support and strength, just like my actual leather jacket lent me strength when my 15 year old self wore it around Gar-Field High School in Virginia, in 1994. Whether we are getting it from our clothes, or from our friends, it's the courage to be authentic, really.
Well anyhow. It was a very enjoyable gathering of friends, even if we are all pretty much making this shit up as we go.
But I have to say, I was not the biggest fan of the food...it is the kind of food that impresses everyone but me, with my picky habits and simple, bland tastes. I got a meat and cheese board, and nibbled maybe half of it, and shared the rest out to others. And I thought I was safe with a little side dish sized portion of macaroni and cheese, but the cooked it with some kind of beer, which I could not place at first when I didn't know what it was. I had Fire and others tasting it. To me, it read on my tongue as very bitter...and reminded me a little of the flavor of truffles (the fungus, not the delicious chocolate)...and I wondered if it was truffle oil...then Fire read the description again and said it was a beer used in the making of the sauce. Well, see, that is very fancy and everything, and I do like some very sharp cheddars that are made with alcoholic beverages like beer or wine...but I'm not such a fan of that bitter taste in my macaroni and cheese. It just wasn't doing it for me. If I'd been more hungry, I would have got a burger, and I should have anyhow because I'd have liked it and it would have cost less than everything I only nibbled before handing out to anyone else at the table who could finish it.
Next month we are meeting in the park, which is nice, because I can make or buy myself something to take and eat, and won't be subject to the menu of wherever we are. Though, usually, I can find something to my taste almost anywhere.
Speaking of food, I'm meeting Zen for lunch today. I've a craving for Subway...that does not happen often. I hope he is game for that, but I can adjust if he isn't.
And there is good news for Old Wolf, he's had news that his application with the post office is progressing to its final stages, so he will likely wind up a postal carrier sometime very soon. Kind of funny, the man voted "Most Likely to Go Postal" (by me) is gonna work for the actual post office. Go figure...
And Leather Philosophy? Well again as with so much in the realm of kink... We had some people who said "I live it, I've lived it forever" and one who said "I'm kind of new, only 7 years in the Leather Lifestyle" and one friend who is the actual state title holder for "Mr. Leather Colorado" but he's so young, he's been involved in all this for only a few years...and then the rest of us who were just like, "What's all this then? I'm here to hang out with my friends."
And the MFQ, who lives what she calls a philosophy of "Pirate Leather."
But no one can agree as to what it IS, we could only talk about what it means to us, and opinions varied a lot. Community seems invariably central to it, which makes sense...integrity and authenticity, too. OK. For me, I could only repeat what I'd said in a previous group ages ago when I tried to explain that, though I know we are talking about Leather the concept, not necessarily Leather the material, I am reminded of being a teenager...awkward, kind of insecure, still figuring out who I was like any teenager...and donning this angle-length leather trenchcoat my mother gave me. The thing came to feel like armor. And there is something about leather (the hide) that has a way of making you feel really badass, even when inside you maybe aren't.
Now that I'm writing and can process a bit better, maybe the idea I wanted to convey is...the courage to stand where you are, to stand your ground even if you are not like everybody else, and maybe they don't like you or can't identify with you, the courage to still be your own self and the strength to hold onto that, even if the world around you feels hostile. And of course in life when you do that, others who wish to do the same will gravitate together, and you end up with the "shoulder to shoulder, hide to hide" of Leather the community. Everyone giving support and strength, just like my actual leather jacket lent me strength when my 15 year old self wore it around Gar-Field High School in Virginia, in 1994. Whether we are getting it from our clothes, or from our friends, it's the courage to be authentic, really.
Well anyhow. It was a very enjoyable gathering of friends, even if we are all pretty much making this shit up as we go.
But I have to say, I was not the biggest fan of the food...it is the kind of food that impresses everyone but me, with my picky habits and simple, bland tastes. I got a meat and cheese board, and nibbled maybe half of it, and shared the rest out to others. And I thought I was safe with a little side dish sized portion of macaroni and cheese, but the cooked it with some kind of beer, which I could not place at first when I didn't know what it was. I had Fire and others tasting it. To me, it read on my tongue as very bitter...and reminded me a little of the flavor of truffles (the fungus, not the delicious chocolate)...and I wondered if it was truffle oil...then Fire read the description again and said it was a beer used in the making of the sauce. Well, see, that is very fancy and everything, and I do like some very sharp cheddars that are made with alcoholic beverages like beer or wine...but I'm not such a fan of that bitter taste in my macaroni and cheese. It just wasn't doing it for me. If I'd been more hungry, I would have got a burger, and I should have anyhow because I'd have liked it and it would have cost less than everything I only nibbled before handing out to anyone else at the table who could finish it.
Next month we are meeting in the park, which is nice, because I can make or buy myself something to take and eat, and won't be subject to the menu of wherever we are. Though, usually, I can find something to my taste almost anywhere.
Speaking of food, I'm meeting Zen for lunch today. I've a craving for Subway...that does not happen often. I hope he is game for that, but I can adjust if he isn't.
And there is good news for Old Wolf, he's had news that his application with the post office is progressing to its final stages, so he will likely wind up a postal carrier sometime very soon. Kind of funny, the man voted "Most Likely to Go Postal" (by me) is gonna work for the actual post office. Go figure...
Spork
Active member
After yesterday's post:
I got a barrage of Facebook messages from Zen's friend, whom I now shall call "Ego." Because frankly I think it's what gets him in trouble, causes him to act in a condescending way to others, and so on. Also because I find it funny that in an old flash cartoon I used to follow on the internets, "Arj and Poopy" (about this idiot and his cat)...the guy is learning yoga, and he says to the cat, "The ego, is not, the amigo." That stuck with me. Now I'm all "I'm not your buddy, guy" and so yeah... The parallel amuses me. I'll take it.
I'll be honest, in every interaction I've witnessed between him and another human, there has been at least SOME degree of condescending attitude. It feels, to me, like his default.
So, and I have been sorta expecting this since he got back from his business travel anyways, I had a feeling he wasn't gonna let things lie in the long run...he wants to do a phone call or a face-to-face meeting, to "fix" the tension between us or something, says he feels that friendship with not only Zen, but also with me, is "too valuable" and that he likes me "metric tons."
*sigh*
The reality is that he does NOT like ME metric tons. Cutting the shmoozy crap, he loves his friend, who is one of his last few close friends he's been able to keep in his life, and has for decades been available on tap and on call at any time of day or night almost to listen to his woes and be there for him...and he likes the fact that his friend has found love, probably, as well. All of that very sensible. He wants to be "friends" with me, so that he can feel that his relationship to Zen is not under any threat, and that he's got a comfortable level of control over everyone and everything in the picture.
Also? I'm sure he wants to make peace with me, because he probably thinks that if he caused friction that endangered the relationship between Zen and I, then his friend would never forgive him, and that would be bad. I do think that both of us want Zen to be happy and not in the middle of drama...we just have different ideas on what is the way that should look.
But in order to LIKE ME, he would have to accept that I will NOT be controlled by him in any fashion at all. He'd have to accept me as my own authentic self, which frankly, he doesn't. He likes a cardboard cutout labeled "my buddy's girlfriend." He barely knows me, so he hasn't got much to go on for "liking me metric tons."
The problem I have with his proposition to meet in person, is this... He's the kind of guy who talks a lot, and listens very little. The textbook definition of "mansplaining" could have a picture of him opening his mouth to talk, almost. He just LOVES to tell others what they ought to say and think, who to be and how to act. I sincerely doubt that I would get more than three words in edgewise. In other words, agreeing to a call or a meet, is agreeing to spend my valuable time being lectured on how I need to act, to fit into his world.
That sounds to me like a WASTE of my time. I'm not down for that, so much.
In case it was not FLAGRANTLY obvious, I communicate best in writing. Or at least...I feel I have the space to really express my thoughts in full, not interrupted, censored, talked over, bulldozed...I use writing the way I do, because I've spent a lifetime shutting up so that others who felt more important than they expected me to be, could talk. Like many girls, I got a thorough training in being "polite" and never interrupting and being seen and not heard. Then there was my ex husband, who could hold forth a monologue for DAYS, and was the King of steamrolling right over anyone else who tried to speak. Frankly, I've about had it with that shit. Like when someone does that to me now, I just want to turn around and walk away. As rudely and abruptly as I possibly can. Furthermore, unless I have very, VERY good reason, I place quite a lot of value on being authentic, and I don't want to invest my time and effort into friendships where I feel I must be some fake version of myself. This is an important thing I want him to really hear and understand. But if we are face to face where he can use his Manly Perspective to roll right over the top of my voice, then he WON'T.
So. I am pondering, should I find a way to condense my thoughts into like bullet points, and message him (as concise as possible, and yes, I know, it's hilarious, ME being concise, but I can take the time to edit down to the most important bits.)
Should I write a letter and hand it to him in person?
Should I refuse to meet him in person?
Let him hang for a while?
I did tell him I didn't know what I could find time for, because I am very busy.
At the end of his weird message salvo, he made a reference to the Highlander movies, saying we could "meet in neutral territory"...like even made sure to mention, "like in Highlander." I'm wondering if he was also making some sort of veiled threat that if we could not get along, "there could be only one" or some shit? Or am I reading too much into it, I wonder? Admittedly, my defenses are a bit "up" with him.
I've had a bit of concern that he might attempt to get all "bros before hos" on the whole thing and the reason that bugs me isn't that I'm afraid of losing Zen to him...I think that for all they have a long history, I am bringing Zen more happiness and would probably come out on top of such an ultimatum, if it came to that... But because a.) Zen should not be put in that position, it's a shitty thing to do to someone, asking them to choose between people they care about... and b.) Zen and I both feel sorry for Ego, because how he acts is (in my opinion) a failure to resolve his STUFF...like with many people...he isn't malicious in it, just kind of obliviously self-centered. It comes from a place of very obvious insecurity, it's really kind of childish, at least in my perception. Much as Old Wolf's behavior and the resulting consequences engenders pity in those of us who SEE more clearly, so the same with Ego. It would be kind of heartbreaking for him to lose yet another friend, especially one he's leaned on for so long. I know that Zen would feel bad about that, too.
So it's another point I'd like to get across to the guy... I'm never going to ask Zen to choose. I hope he doesn't, either.
I think that I will use a word doc to try and edit my thoughts to like a few main points that have to be communicated, and then print that sucker out, if we meet face to face, I'll be like, "I WILL communicate these things to you. If you won't hear them, you'll read them, and if you'll do neither, I'm walking away right now." Or I'll just message it to him.
So then...these messages he sent, were between me trying to get out of my office to go to lunch, and my arrival to lunch with Zen... I had a really yummy sandwich from Great Harvest Bread Co. and Zen and I talked about the whole business. His position is that I should "do what I need to do." He is supportive of me establishing whatever boundaries I need to, in this. Maybe I'm reading things into it that are not there (again, always possible) but I get the feeling that there have been things that Zen has wished he could communicate to his friend for years, and that he would not mind seeing if I could find a way to do that. Well, I can only hope that whatever I do, it brings more clarity than drama. So, I'll take my time to figure out the best words to proceed with, here...
I got a barrage of Facebook messages from Zen's friend, whom I now shall call "Ego." Because frankly I think it's what gets him in trouble, causes him to act in a condescending way to others, and so on. Also because I find it funny that in an old flash cartoon I used to follow on the internets, "Arj and Poopy" (about this idiot and his cat)...the guy is learning yoga, and he says to the cat, "The ego, is not, the amigo." That stuck with me. Now I'm all "I'm not your buddy, guy" and so yeah... The parallel amuses me. I'll take it.
I'll be honest, in every interaction I've witnessed between him and another human, there has been at least SOME degree of condescending attitude. It feels, to me, like his default.
So, and I have been sorta expecting this since he got back from his business travel anyways, I had a feeling he wasn't gonna let things lie in the long run...he wants to do a phone call or a face-to-face meeting, to "fix" the tension between us or something, says he feels that friendship with not only Zen, but also with me, is "too valuable" and that he likes me "metric tons."
*sigh*
The reality is that he does NOT like ME metric tons. Cutting the shmoozy crap, he loves his friend, who is one of his last few close friends he's been able to keep in his life, and has for decades been available on tap and on call at any time of day or night almost to listen to his woes and be there for him...and he likes the fact that his friend has found love, probably, as well. All of that very sensible. He wants to be "friends" with me, so that he can feel that his relationship to Zen is not under any threat, and that he's got a comfortable level of control over everyone and everything in the picture.
Also? I'm sure he wants to make peace with me, because he probably thinks that if he caused friction that endangered the relationship between Zen and I, then his friend would never forgive him, and that would be bad. I do think that both of us want Zen to be happy and not in the middle of drama...we just have different ideas on what is the way that should look.
But in order to LIKE ME, he would have to accept that I will NOT be controlled by him in any fashion at all. He'd have to accept me as my own authentic self, which frankly, he doesn't. He likes a cardboard cutout labeled "my buddy's girlfriend." He barely knows me, so he hasn't got much to go on for "liking me metric tons."
The problem I have with his proposition to meet in person, is this... He's the kind of guy who talks a lot, and listens very little. The textbook definition of "mansplaining" could have a picture of him opening his mouth to talk, almost. He just LOVES to tell others what they ought to say and think, who to be and how to act. I sincerely doubt that I would get more than three words in edgewise. In other words, agreeing to a call or a meet, is agreeing to spend my valuable time being lectured on how I need to act, to fit into his world.
That sounds to me like a WASTE of my time. I'm not down for that, so much.
In case it was not FLAGRANTLY obvious, I communicate best in writing. Or at least...I feel I have the space to really express my thoughts in full, not interrupted, censored, talked over, bulldozed...I use writing the way I do, because I've spent a lifetime shutting up so that others who felt more important than they expected me to be, could talk. Like many girls, I got a thorough training in being "polite" and never interrupting and being seen and not heard. Then there was my ex husband, who could hold forth a monologue for DAYS, and was the King of steamrolling right over anyone else who tried to speak. Frankly, I've about had it with that shit. Like when someone does that to me now, I just want to turn around and walk away. As rudely and abruptly as I possibly can. Furthermore, unless I have very, VERY good reason, I place quite a lot of value on being authentic, and I don't want to invest my time and effort into friendships where I feel I must be some fake version of myself. This is an important thing I want him to really hear and understand. But if we are face to face where he can use his Manly Perspective to roll right over the top of my voice, then he WON'T.
So. I am pondering, should I find a way to condense my thoughts into like bullet points, and message him (as concise as possible, and yes, I know, it's hilarious, ME being concise, but I can take the time to edit down to the most important bits.)
Should I write a letter and hand it to him in person?
Should I refuse to meet him in person?
Let him hang for a while?
I did tell him I didn't know what I could find time for, because I am very busy.
At the end of his weird message salvo, he made a reference to the Highlander movies, saying we could "meet in neutral territory"...like even made sure to mention, "like in Highlander." I'm wondering if he was also making some sort of veiled threat that if we could not get along, "there could be only one" or some shit? Or am I reading too much into it, I wonder? Admittedly, my defenses are a bit "up" with him.
I've had a bit of concern that he might attempt to get all "bros before hos" on the whole thing and the reason that bugs me isn't that I'm afraid of losing Zen to him...I think that for all they have a long history, I am bringing Zen more happiness and would probably come out on top of such an ultimatum, if it came to that... But because a.) Zen should not be put in that position, it's a shitty thing to do to someone, asking them to choose between people they care about... and b.) Zen and I both feel sorry for Ego, because how he acts is (in my opinion) a failure to resolve his STUFF...like with many people...he isn't malicious in it, just kind of obliviously self-centered. It comes from a place of very obvious insecurity, it's really kind of childish, at least in my perception. Much as Old Wolf's behavior and the resulting consequences engenders pity in those of us who SEE more clearly, so the same with Ego. It would be kind of heartbreaking for him to lose yet another friend, especially one he's leaned on for so long. I know that Zen would feel bad about that, too.
So it's another point I'd like to get across to the guy... I'm never going to ask Zen to choose. I hope he doesn't, either.
I think that I will use a word doc to try and edit my thoughts to like a few main points that have to be communicated, and then print that sucker out, if we meet face to face, I'll be like, "I WILL communicate these things to you. If you won't hear them, you'll read them, and if you'll do neither, I'm walking away right now." Or I'll just message it to him.
So then...these messages he sent, were between me trying to get out of my office to go to lunch, and my arrival to lunch with Zen... I had a really yummy sandwich from Great Harvest Bread Co. and Zen and I talked about the whole business. His position is that I should "do what I need to do." He is supportive of me establishing whatever boundaries I need to, in this. Maybe I'm reading things into it that are not there (again, always possible) but I get the feeling that there have been things that Zen has wished he could communicate to his friend for years, and that he would not mind seeing if I could find a way to do that. Well, I can only hope that whatever I do, it brings more clarity than drama. So, I'll take my time to figure out the best words to proceed with, here...
Spork
Active member
So that was the heavy stuff, and here is the not-so-heavy stuff:
I am happy with how last night went, I got things done that needed to get done, and still found about half an hour to sit in my community's hot tub. Albeit, by myself, but the thought occurred to me and I was all, "That sounds nice. Why the hell not?" I took a book, a paperback I did not mind getting wet if it happened, though it didn't, and I enjoyed my soak. Of course had any of the other neighbors been there, I would happily have engaged them in conversation, but no. It was just me.
And today is Hefe's birthday! I know we're really celebrating on Friday at Voodoo, but I sure hope he does something nice tonight with Fire, too. Happy Birthday, Hefe. Love comes in many flavors, and I definitely still love him, and Fire and even Analyst the Elusive, who has vanished from our social spheres somewhat lately...even if Zen proved to be the best fit for my own sort of crazy puzzle piece, the others are all such wonderful people that I'll always feel honored that I was in a relationship with them for a time. And it's still a special sort of awesome how Hefe and I seem to always be thinking the same things. That kept happening on Sunday and Monday when we were hanging out. Someone says something, my brain goes straight to some reference, I look at Hefe and know just from his expression that he's thinking the exact same thing...pretty much constantly happens.
I'm so thankful for the people I get to share my life with. Always.
Fire said something about how Voodoo people, the friends and "chosen family" in that community, have really raised the bar for her in regard to the people she wants to spend time with and how she expects people to act. And yeah, I have to admit, there is a lot of that in how I approach the situation with Zen's friend, too. The whole, "I could go along to get along...but...should I really have to?"
Anyhow. Also, my GWAR auctions are going well. I just listed another round today, with a few rare items, and this one guy Joe who is a real high roller, is in the running for four out of five of those items. Prices tend to go pretty high when he is involved, he isn't afraid and won't back down. I tend to get a bit excited when one of the few "big names" gets in on the action. Joe got kicked out of one of the other collector groups for reselling stuff he bought on Ebay...but shit, I don't care. I could have listed the stuff on Ebay, but I hate them because their fees make me angry. Once somebody buys something from me, I don't get a say in what they do with it. None of my business! And hell, if he can bid that high and still roll a profit even with the fees of FeeBay, then good on him!
I am happy with how last night went, I got things done that needed to get done, and still found about half an hour to sit in my community's hot tub. Albeit, by myself, but the thought occurred to me and I was all, "That sounds nice. Why the hell not?" I took a book, a paperback I did not mind getting wet if it happened, though it didn't, and I enjoyed my soak. Of course had any of the other neighbors been there, I would happily have engaged them in conversation, but no. It was just me.
And today is Hefe's birthday! I know we're really celebrating on Friday at Voodoo, but I sure hope he does something nice tonight with Fire, too. Happy Birthday, Hefe. Love comes in many flavors, and I definitely still love him, and Fire and even Analyst the Elusive, who has vanished from our social spheres somewhat lately...even if Zen proved to be the best fit for my own sort of crazy puzzle piece, the others are all such wonderful people that I'll always feel honored that I was in a relationship with them for a time. And it's still a special sort of awesome how Hefe and I seem to always be thinking the same things. That kept happening on Sunday and Monday when we were hanging out. Someone says something, my brain goes straight to some reference, I look at Hefe and know just from his expression that he's thinking the exact same thing...pretty much constantly happens.
I'm so thankful for the people I get to share my life with. Always.
Fire said something about how Voodoo people, the friends and "chosen family" in that community, have really raised the bar for her in regard to the people she wants to spend time with and how she expects people to act. And yeah, I have to admit, there is a lot of that in how I approach the situation with Zen's friend, too. The whole, "I could go along to get along...but...should I really have to?"
Anyhow. Also, my GWAR auctions are going well. I just listed another round today, with a few rare items, and this one guy Joe who is a real high roller, is in the running for four out of five of those items. Prices tend to go pretty high when he is involved, he isn't afraid and won't back down. I tend to get a bit excited when one of the few "big names" gets in on the action. Joe got kicked out of one of the other collector groups for reselling stuff he bought on Ebay...but shit, I don't care. I could have listed the stuff on Ebay, but I hate them because their fees make me angry. Once somebody buys something from me, I don't get a say in what they do with it. None of my business! And hell, if he can bid that high and still roll a profit even with the fees of FeeBay, then good on him!
WhatHappened
Active member
It sounds like you and I have had similar experiences with people who talk endlessly and steamroll over anyone else's attempts to talk. I personally don't put this down to them trying to force me into any gender stereotypes, but more to them being alcoholics and other-ways dysfunctional.
I, too, have turned to writing and believe that's why. It was the only place I could ever get a word in edgewise.
As to Ego making veiled threats with the Highlander reference, yes, I do think you're reading way too much into that. I don't know him, but would think he just loves Highlander.
If I understand, this has all stemmed from his request that you not talk about BDSM in front of his wife and friend, right? I know you said you want the wife and friend to speak up for themselves, but I think there are all sorts of reasons people don't. They feel uncomfortable saying to someone that they don't want to hear about these things. They may be afraid of causing waves (as Ego's saying it certainly has done) or afraid of hurting feelings or whatever. Many, many people hold their tongues about what they really think or feel or want. I don't think it's that unusual.
And I don't think that not talking about BDSM means you can't be your authentic self or that he's trying to control you. I have interests that are very big in my life. Say photography. Or a political opinion. A hobby. But people can get tired of hearing about a single subject. And given a subject like BDSM, I think it's understandable that some people just might not be comfortable hearing about it, just as many people do not want to constantly hear about someone else's faith or politics.
I think there's room for argument that he or his wife or friend may feel they're being controlled by having to hear about things that do make them uncomfortable and by the feeling that you will continue talking about things they don't want to hear about.
Relationships require give and take on both parts.
I hope you and Ego and Zen can all find some common ground and maybe work towards friendship.
I, too, have turned to writing and believe that's why. It was the only place I could ever get a word in edgewise.
As to Ego making veiled threats with the Highlander reference, yes, I do think you're reading way too much into that. I don't know him, but would think he just loves Highlander.
If I understand, this has all stemmed from his request that you not talk about BDSM in front of his wife and friend, right? I know you said you want the wife and friend to speak up for themselves, but I think there are all sorts of reasons people don't. They feel uncomfortable saying to someone that they don't want to hear about these things. They may be afraid of causing waves (as Ego's saying it certainly has done) or afraid of hurting feelings or whatever. Many, many people hold their tongues about what they really think or feel or want. I don't think it's that unusual.
And I don't think that not talking about BDSM means you can't be your authentic self or that he's trying to control you. I have interests that are very big in my life. Say photography. Or a political opinion. A hobby. But people can get tired of hearing about a single subject. And given a subject like BDSM, I think it's understandable that some people just might not be comfortable hearing about it, just as many people do not want to constantly hear about someone else's faith or politics.
I think there's room for argument that he or his wife or friend may feel they're being controlled by having to hear about things that do make them uncomfortable and by the feeling that you will continue talking about things they don't want to hear about.
Relationships require give and take on both parts.
I hope you and Ego and Zen can all find some common ground and maybe work towards friendship.
Spork
Active member
I appreciate that, but I wonder...do we HAVE to be friends?
I mean, like...friend, friends?
Or rather, do I have to pretend to be friends, with someone who won't let anyone else talk, sit there while his wife looks all silent, bored, disconnected, and restless, not "allowed" to speak to her one on one, without him directing the conversation, ever? With someone who is rude to the waitstaff and inconsiderate to others? Who even makes Zen feel talked-over and dismissed?
I mean, I'm not saying I have to go right up to him and say, "I DON'T LIKE YOU." But I personally think a neutral place is where I prefer to be.
And frankly, yes, everyone in my personal life does have to hear about BDSM at least a little bit. I am out to every single member of my family, and they at least understand what I get out of it and what it means to me. My Mom, Dad, brothers, and even my sons know. I do not choose to engage in friendships with people where I have to be "closeted" about it. Does that mean I need to get into all the details? No, of course not! But the guy even gave me attitude for wearing my collar when we were all meeting for dinner. He keeps saying in this very judgy voice that it's "that weird sex stuff" that Zen and I do, and doesn't wanna hear that there is any more to it than that.
Judged, dismissed, moving on. Let's talk about things I want to talk about.
Oh, but let him bring up a subject that makes me bored or uncomfortable? No way would I be able to assert that I don't want to hear about it. Never.
Why should I have to put my energy into faking friendship with someone like him? I don't want to! Especially after 18 years married to someone like that, feeling shut down and silenced all the time. Ugh.
The issue I had before was that a friend of his seemed curious, so I sent the dude a message on FB explaining what was up, and instead of saying, "Huh. Well um...good for you, I guess?" or "I'm not really comfortable talking about that." or...ANYTHING to me... He went to Ego and they discussed it, then Ego went to Zen and gave him an earful of lecture on how I need to behave, and then Zen came back to me. That is some high school level triangulation, right there. Nope. I don't want to play. And he is forever saying what we are allowed to talk about, or not talk about, around his wife, while telling us all of her personal business and their marriage and all. We get like a play by play of their personal life, but we are not allowed to talk about ours.
I find it distasteful.
So, I think the best compromise that should be expected of me is cordial but somewhat distant truce...rather than "you have to be my friend and hang out with me" which he is kinda demanding.
EDIT: I am actually realizing, upon re-reading this particular post, that being in the company of him and his wife at the same time is uncomfortable, because it reminds me of my marriage a lot. In fact I look at her, and I think, "That is me. I looked just like that." It's almost a little triggery. And my impulse to talk about BDSM is my impulse to push that feeling away, by tapping into the one that has made everything SO MUCH BETTER since then. I'm kind of going to my happy place. But I would rather not have to deal with all of that unhealthy mojo in the first place, frankly.
I mean the dude, at one point, wanted Zen to come over during fights with his wife so that he could "take his side" against her, gang up on her and explain why Ego is right and she's being stubborn and wrong. He has involved Zen, and started to involve me, in his marital issues to an uncomfortable degree. The fact that he makes everyone around him uncomfortable, but tries to police my speech with the excuse that "others will be uncomfortable" is seriously fishy to me.
I mean, like...friend, friends?
Or rather, do I have to pretend to be friends, with someone who won't let anyone else talk, sit there while his wife looks all silent, bored, disconnected, and restless, not "allowed" to speak to her one on one, without him directing the conversation, ever? With someone who is rude to the waitstaff and inconsiderate to others? Who even makes Zen feel talked-over and dismissed?
I mean, I'm not saying I have to go right up to him and say, "I DON'T LIKE YOU." But I personally think a neutral place is where I prefer to be.
And frankly, yes, everyone in my personal life does have to hear about BDSM at least a little bit. I am out to every single member of my family, and they at least understand what I get out of it and what it means to me. My Mom, Dad, brothers, and even my sons know. I do not choose to engage in friendships with people where I have to be "closeted" about it. Does that mean I need to get into all the details? No, of course not! But the guy even gave me attitude for wearing my collar when we were all meeting for dinner. He keeps saying in this very judgy voice that it's "that weird sex stuff" that Zen and I do, and doesn't wanna hear that there is any more to it than that.
Judged, dismissed, moving on. Let's talk about things I want to talk about.
Oh, but let him bring up a subject that makes me bored or uncomfortable? No way would I be able to assert that I don't want to hear about it. Never.
Why should I have to put my energy into faking friendship with someone like him? I don't want to! Especially after 18 years married to someone like that, feeling shut down and silenced all the time. Ugh.
The issue I had before was that a friend of his seemed curious, so I sent the dude a message on FB explaining what was up, and instead of saying, "Huh. Well um...good for you, I guess?" or "I'm not really comfortable talking about that." or...ANYTHING to me... He went to Ego and they discussed it, then Ego went to Zen and gave him an earful of lecture on how I need to behave, and then Zen came back to me. That is some high school level triangulation, right there. Nope. I don't want to play. And he is forever saying what we are allowed to talk about, or not talk about, around his wife, while telling us all of her personal business and their marriage and all. We get like a play by play of their personal life, but we are not allowed to talk about ours.
I find it distasteful.
So, I think the best compromise that should be expected of me is cordial but somewhat distant truce...rather than "you have to be my friend and hang out with me" which he is kinda demanding.
EDIT: I am actually realizing, upon re-reading this particular post, that being in the company of him and his wife at the same time is uncomfortable, because it reminds me of my marriage a lot. In fact I look at her, and I think, "That is me. I looked just like that." It's almost a little triggery. And my impulse to talk about BDSM is my impulse to push that feeling away, by tapping into the one that has made everything SO MUCH BETTER since then. I'm kind of going to my happy place. But I would rather not have to deal with all of that unhealthy mojo in the first place, frankly.
I mean the dude, at one point, wanted Zen to come over during fights with his wife so that he could "take his side" against her, gang up on her and explain why Ego is right and she's being stubborn and wrong. He has involved Zen, and started to involve me, in his marital issues to an uncomfortable degree. The fact that he makes everyone around him uncomfortable, but tries to police my speech with the excuse that "others will be uncomfortable" is seriously fishy to me.
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WhatHappened
Active member
No, I don't think you HAVE to be friends, either. And I don't think you owe him any explanation. We just don't click with everybody. And I do agree it's a two-way street that he should also not constantly talk about things that make you bored or uncomfortable.
I haven't read every word of your blog, but an awful lot about Ego and it seems to me you've added new information about him in this last post?
I personally wouldn't even write a letter to him. I have someone in my life who tried to demand that there would be a relationship--on his terms. I quickly learned that it was a waste of my time to discuss it with him because it was not a discussion, but a lecture. I agonized over responding to one of his letters accusing me of a multitude of crimes against humanity and realized that every single word I could possibly say would only be used as ammunition against me.
My only point was that there's give and take and sometimes we can find common ground and leave out the things that divide us and I don't find that to be inauthentic at all, but meeting people in a place we can both find some good. I had a friend like that and I didn't feel the least bit inauthentic in talking about things other than those that divided us. Because the things we did talk about were also part of me.
I haven't read every word of your blog, but an awful lot about Ego and it seems to me you've added new information about him in this last post?
I personally wouldn't even write a letter to him. I have someone in my life who tried to demand that there would be a relationship--on his terms. I quickly learned that it was a waste of my time to discuss it with him because it was not a discussion, but a lecture. I agonized over responding to one of his letters accusing me of a multitude of crimes against humanity
and realized that every single word I could possibly say would only be used as ammunition against me.My only point was that there's give and take and sometimes we can find common ground and leave out the things that divide us and I don't find that to be inauthentic at all, but meeting people in a place we can both find some good. I had a friend like that and I didn't feel the least bit inauthentic in talking about things other than those that divided us. Because the things we did talk about were also part of me.
GirlFromTexlahoma
New member
I have never understood the whole idea that we have to be friends with our partner's friends. Polite, respectful, sure. But Andy had friends I find annoying/boring/whatever, and I don't feel compelled to spend time with them.
I dunno, I feel like life is way too short to waste time on people who suck. I'm with What Happened that even writing him a letter is pointless.
Is Ego such a regular presence in Zen's life that you can't simply, say, be busy on the nights they hang out? Be distant but polite if you have to interact with him at bigger social events? Since that's what you'd prefer, and I can't imagine Zen would expect you to hang around with anyone who makes you uncomfortable.. The whole effort of getting along with Ego is solely for Ego.
I dunno, I feel like life is way too short to waste time on people who suck. I'm with What Happened that even writing him a letter is pointless.
Is Ego such a regular presence in Zen's life that you can't simply, say, be busy on the nights they hang out? Be distant but polite if you have to interact with him at bigger social events? Since that's what you'd prefer, and I can't imagine Zen would expect you to hang around with anyone who makes you uncomfortable.. The whole effort of getting along with Ego is solely for Ego.
Spork
Active member
No, I don't think you HAVE to be friends, either. And I don't think you owe him any explanation. We just don't click with everybody. And I do agree it's a two-way street that he should also not constantly talk about things that make you bored or uncomfortable.
I haven't read every word of your blog, but an awful lot about Ego and it seems to me you've added new information about him in this last post?
I personally wouldn't even write a letter to him. I have someone in my life who tried to demand that there would be a relationship--on his terms. I quickly learned that it was a waste of my time to discuss it with him because it was not a discussion, but a lecture. I agonized over responding to one of his letters accusing me of a multitude of crimes against humanity
My only point was that there's give and take and sometimes we can find common ground and leave out the things that divide us and I don't find that to be inauthentic at all, but meeting people in a place we can both find some good. I had a friend like that and I didn't feel the least bit inauthentic in talking about things other than those that divided us. Because the things we did talk about were also part of me.
Yes, but it's like, you consented to not talk about certain things because you got a greater good from the overall relationship on the balance.
I feel as though he is not very respectful of my right to consent (or not) to the personal compromises he seems to expect, let alone the relationship itself. Like, things have to be the way he says, because of course they do.
As for new information, some yes...thing is, Zen does read my blog, at my invitation, and this IS his friend. He is not under any illusions about how the dude is, in fact if anything he warned me, but I am not really trying to talk too much shit, ya know?
So you figure I ought to just kind of ghost out and offer no explanations? He is pretty much demanding a phone call or in person meeting from me now. I have committed to nothing. I literally told him that the extent of the response I had time for right now, was a raised eyebrow. Like Spock. And he can take that however he likes...
Spork
Active member
Zen is cool with me not wanting to hang with Ego.
Ego "wants to hang out with you guys" and Zen says, "Well, I don't think that Spork really wants to" and Ego is like, "Oh, no, that's not OK I have to fix this!" and then he's messaging me on Facebook and bugging me to talk and work it out with him. In other words, hear him out as he explains why he's right and I'm wrong, and he's known Zen for twenty years, and blah, blah, blah.
Spork
Active member
Well, my decision on that whole business with Zen's friend, is that when I get around to it, when I feel like dealing with it, and there is NO way of knowing when that will be...I will set out with a Word Doc to write out my thoughts and condense them down to minimal length, like try to express myself accurately on the most important stuff in bullet points so that maybe it will get through and not be lost in the realm of "tl;dr" (which given my proclivities, I blame no one for feeling that way.) And then I'll decide if I want to just message it to him, or meet him in person.
Before I meet him in person, if I decide to, I want him to know that I am hesitant to do so, because I very much suspect that he'll do a lot of talking and not a lot of listening, and I feel disrespected by that kind of behavior.
In a way, my desire to actually communicate with him, much as many of my kerfuffles here have done, ties back into a greater social thing that has me annoyed. I've read plenty of articles about this, and I mentioned the "gendered" aspect earlier. Has anyone else read the studies showing how in most social situations, movies, politics, office meetings, etc that men talk a lot more than women do, but women are perceived to talk more? It's not that "all men" do the thing of dominating conversations and silencing women's voices, not at all, I know LOTS of men (including Zen) who tend to be quieter, and definitely give me space to express myself. No, but when I meet someone who obnoxiously dominates the room, 9 times out of 10, it's a man. And usually, it's a man who seems (to me) to be overcompensating for his own ego issues, he's got something to prove, by being overly controlling of the conversation. Often he seems kind of oblivious to other people's social cues or discomforts, he's kind of an ass, and he doesn't seem to know it. I could list several men I've known who behave this way. It's not a majority of them by any means. But all it takes is one in a room to annoy or silence everyone else. Other men might try to step up and compete with those voices sometimes, but women in that situation, are usually pretty quiet.
However, when it comes to the easily silenced voices, the ones who appear to be pushed to the background, I've seen just as many men as women. They are typically the introverts. It takes effort for them to contribute anyways, and if there is a conversation bully in the room, they won't.
Now I can say from discussion groups, and meetings, that I am more comfortable contributing than most, if I really have something to say, I've learned to (sometimes) interrupt if I need to. But it's a socialization that has come from being around these kinds of men...if you don't communicate in a more pushy way than you're even comfortable with, you will never be heard at all. And I do my best, to pay attention to the people around me, and notice if someone's nonverbal cues are signaling that they would like to speak, and even try to make space for them if they seem to be having trouble getting a word in edgewise. And if I notice that I have stepped on anybody in a conversation, I apologize for it and ask them to please go on, and shut up and listen.
I'm doing my best to be heard, to hear others, and also to help others be heard.
But that THING of the man who thinks his words are the best words, his position the most valid one, he's got the right to mansplain what everyone else is, or should be, thinking and doing...just the way he throws his weight around drives me nuts. And because of my feelings on the greater THING which his behavior echoes, I feel like I've got to stand up to it. Like being silent and just letting it all go...which is one valid way to handle all this, and perhaps best...is me being a weak womanly person who doesn't speak up, even when feeling trod upon. And because I am CAPABLE of standing up to this, if I don't, I nearly feel like I am failing everyone who has ever felt stepped on by such a person, because I am reinforcing to the communication bully that he has an objective RIGHT to treat people that way, by being yet another one who just takes it.
So I remain somewhat uncertain. I suspect I will HAVE to address this one way or another, because I just don't think he will let it go. So I do want to be prepared, and if I must confront him, I don't want to capitulate and just let him roll over me, even if that would make things easier for everybody (but me) it would make me feel that I'd betrayed myself. But I am in no rush. I'll deal with this, as I said, when I get around to it.
Frankly, at the moment, I have far more important things going on. Lots, and lots of them. I'm still trying to get my last name changed on all the million little products, services, and interactions I have with the world. I'm still trying to get my bankruptcy paperwork done (why do I remember it being easier back in 2002 when I did it for my ex?) and I am still hustling GWAR memorabilia in Facebook groups, which necessitates quite a bit of bookkeeping and frequent trips to the post office. I need to take my van to get looked at, and have no idea how to make time for that in my schedule, and worry plenty about affording anything much beyond an oil change. I'm trying to manage my older son long distance and visit him once in a while, and my younger son constantly wants stuff, and I'm trying to manage expectations both in regard to what I need him to do, and what he expects as a reward...and I have Hefe's Birthday gathering at Voodoo tomorrow night and a party I'm volunteering to do some door duty for on Saturday. All while juggling my job, errands, finances, housework, my relationship (which I happily devote quite a bit of time to) my friendships (barely) my calendar and my cat, and I have a need/want to make art, and ideas for miles...I got books I wanna read and maybe one day I could, possibly, consider spending some time exercising. But I often feel I've barely got enough time to eat and sleep.
And this dude wants to get together and talk. Well frankly, he can take a number...'cause I do not know when I will make the time.
Before I meet him in person, if I decide to, I want him to know that I am hesitant to do so, because I very much suspect that he'll do a lot of talking and not a lot of listening, and I feel disrespected by that kind of behavior.
In a way, my desire to actually communicate with him, much as many of my kerfuffles here have done, ties back into a greater social thing that has me annoyed. I've read plenty of articles about this, and I mentioned the "gendered" aspect earlier. Has anyone else read the studies showing how in most social situations, movies, politics, office meetings, etc that men talk a lot more than women do, but women are perceived to talk more? It's not that "all men" do the thing of dominating conversations and silencing women's voices, not at all, I know LOTS of men (including Zen) who tend to be quieter, and definitely give me space to express myself. No, but when I meet someone who obnoxiously dominates the room, 9 times out of 10, it's a man. And usually, it's a man who seems (to me) to be overcompensating for his own ego issues, he's got something to prove, by being overly controlling of the conversation. Often he seems kind of oblivious to other people's social cues or discomforts, he's kind of an ass, and he doesn't seem to know it. I could list several men I've known who behave this way. It's not a majority of them by any means. But all it takes is one in a room to annoy or silence everyone else. Other men might try to step up and compete with those voices sometimes, but women in that situation, are usually pretty quiet.
However, when it comes to the easily silenced voices, the ones who appear to be pushed to the background, I've seen just as many men as women. They are typically the introverts. It takes effort for them to contribute anyways, and if there is a conversation bully in the room, they won't.
Now I can say from discussion groups, and meetings, that I am more comfortable contributing than most, if I really have something to say, I've learned to (sometimes) interrupt if I need to. But it's a socialization that has come from being around these kinds of men...if you don't communicate in a more pushy way than you're even comfortable with, you will never be heard at all. And I do my best, to pay attention to the people around me, and notice if someone's nonverbal cues are signaling that they would like to speak, and even try to make space for them if they seem to be having trouble getting a word in edgewise. And if I notice that I have stepped on anybody in a conversation, I apologize for it and ask them to please go on, and shut up and listen.
I'm doing my best to be heard, to hear others, and also to help others be heard.
But that THING of the man who thinks his words are the best words, his position the most valid one, he's got the right to mansplain what everyone else is, or should be, thinking and doing...just the way he throws his weight around drives me nuts. And because of my feelings on the greater THING which his behavior echoes, I feel like I've got to stand up to it. Like being silent and just letting it all go...which is one valid way to handle all this, and perhaps best...is me being a weak womanly person who doesn't speak up, even when feeling trod upon. And because I am CAPABLE of standing up to this, if I don't, I nearly feel like I am failing everyone who has ever felt stepped on by such a person, because I am reinforcing to the communication bully that he has an objective RIGHT to treat people that way, by being yet another one who just takes it.
So I remain somewhat uncertain. I suspect I will HAVE to address this one way or another, because I just don't think he will let it go. So I do want to be prepared, and if I must confront him, I don't want to capitulate and just let him roll over me, even if that would make things easier for everybody (but me) it would make me feel that I'd betrayed myself. But I am in no rush. I'll deal with this, as I said, when I get around to it.
Frankly, at the moment, I have far more important things going on. Lots, and lots of them. I'm still trying to get my last name changed on all the million little products, services, and interactions I have with the world. I'm still trying to get my bankruptcy paperwork done (why do I remember it being easier back in 2002 when I did it for my ex?) and I am still hustling GWAR memorabilia in Facebook groups, which necessitates quite a bit of bookkeeping and frequent trips to the post office. I need to take my van to get looked at, and have no idea how to make time for that in my schedule, and worry plenty about affording anything much beyond an oil change. I'm trying to manage my older son long distance and visit him once in a while, and my younger son constantly wants stuff, and I'm trying to manage expectations both in regard to what I need him to do, and what he expects as a reward...and I have Hefe's Birthday gathering at Voodoo tomorrow night and a party I'm volunteering to do some door duty for on Saturday. All while juggling my job, errands, finances, housework, my relationship (which I happily devote quite a bit of time to) my friendships (barely) my calendar and my cat, and I have a need/want to make art, and ideas for miles...I got books I wanna read and maybe one day I could, possibly, consider spending some time exercising. But I often feel I've barely got enough time to eat and sleep.
And this dude wants to get together and talk. Well frankly, he can take a number...'cause I do not know when I will make the time.
JaneQSmythe
Well-known member
Ego "wants to hang out with you guys" and Zen says, "Well, I don't think that Spork really wants to" and Ego is like, "Oh, no, that's not OK I have to fix this!" and then he's messaging me on Facebook and bugging me to talk and work it out with him. In other words, hear him out as he explains why he's right and I'm wrong, and he's known Zen for twenty years, and blah, blah, blah.
This is eerily similar to something that happened between SLeW, her (now-ex)BF, and her best friend about a year ago. As an uninvolved friend (I didn't know the best friend or the boyfriend socially) I got to watch the hinge getting whipped back and forth between her loyalty to her friend and her friend's aggressive need to "protect her" from being "hurt" by the boyfriend.
It. Was. Awful. (To watch, that is, my relationship with SLeW definitely deepened as everything played out and she couldn't turn to her usual supports, as THEY were the ones that were causing the trouble.)
I personally reserve the right to be as anti-social as I want to be and NOT socialize with people I don't like, or who don't like me. (Like Dude's ex that was all smiles to my face, and coming over and hanging out - and then called me a drunken whore - and NOT in a nice way
). Public civility. That's all they get.
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Spork
Active member
Yeah, ya know, that guy, it's all just a thing, makes me think about stuff, and then it's whatever, because when it comes to my own time and I'm not chained to a desk, I have so bloody much to do that I can't be bothered...though "stuff I could say to Ego" has been the subject of the last few days' mental rambles while I auto-pilot my way through my morning shower/dress/get ready for work routine. I kind of just let my brain wander around all over during that time, and it does, and sometimes I get thoughts I hang on to, and often I just let it all go as my day hands me more important stuff to think about.
Today's more important stuff:
I forgot my cellphone at home. I have become so dependent upon it, I feel utterly naked and helpless (and not in a fun way) without it. Zen, if you're reading this, check your email. And I can only hope I have time to run home on my lunch and grab it...
But on my lunch, I have to go see the lawyer. I have, with confidence, practically everything done for the bankruptcy. The process has been ridiculously complicated compared to what I helped Old Wolf do back in like 2002, and I was up all night last night finishing up. But aside from one remaining question about taxes, I'm pretty much there.
And if somehow I accomplish the lawyer visit, AND get home to grab my phone, and still have time... Well forget it, that isn't going to happen.
But I could also do with a trip to the post office. No. Post office waits till tomorrow. Right, ok. I have to run home after work and manage auctions, change my clothes, and grab an overnight bag and some food I made for Hefe's birthday party at Voodoo tonight. Then party, then overnight with Zen...thank GOD because I need his good energy, I have got to relax. But not relax TOO much because tomorrow, we should to go Sam's Club and get his card (I signed him up under my membership) and I need to run to the post office to mail GWAR stuffs and I need...shit, I need to buy envelopes for that...and maybe we could see the new Guardians movie, I would like to.
After we have sex. I need sex. Yes. And tomorrow night is another party at Voodoo and they want me to work the door, but Fire never sent me the sign up link. And I have another project I need to do for Voodoo, maybe I'll find time on Sunday in between getting an oil change, and my son's hair cut, and managing more auctions, and picking up cat food.
So today is another day, where I just don't have too many fucks to give about Zen's old friend and his issues, and I am reassured that I can set the matter of him aside for someday when I have time to concern myself...
Crap. I'm hungry. Gonna go eat!! (See all that stuff going on in those paragraphs? That is how my brain works when my blood sugar starts to drop. If I let it go another half hour, I'll be cold, shaking, headachy and mildly nauseous. An hour from now, and the feeling of "nerves" would intensify to where I feel like stress factors, even noises, are too much to handle.) I wonder if my blood sugar sensitivities have to do with my thyroid problem? I've been tested for hypoglycemia and diabetes and stuff, and it's always shown that I'm clear of those things. Maybe normal people have the same problem, they just eat more often than I do, and don't let themselves get this wonky. *shrug* I dunno...
You know what it feels like? Like on the inside, I'm Tweak from South Park.
Today's more important stuff:
I forgot my cellphone at home. I have become so dependent upon it, I feel utterly naked and helpless (and not in a fun way) without it. Zen, if you're reading this, check your email. And I can only hope I have time to run home on my lunch and grab it...
But on my lunch, I have to go see the lawyer. I have, with confidence, practically everything done for the bankruptcy. The process has been ridiculously complicated compared to what I helped Old Wolf do back in like 2002, and I was up all night last night finishing up. But aside from one remaining question about taxes, I'm pretty much there.
And if somehow I accomplish the lawyer visit, AND get home to grab my phone, and still have time... Well forget it, that isn't going to happen.
But I could also do with a trip to the post office. No. Post office waits till tomorrow. Right, ok. I have to run home after work and manage auctions, change my clothes, and grab an overnight bag and some food I made for Hefe's birthday party at Voodoo tonight. Then party, then overnight with Zen...thank GOD because I need his good energy, I have got to relax. But not relax TOO much because tomorrow, we should to go Sam's Club and get his card (I signed him up under my membership) and I need to run to the post office to mail GWAR stuffs and I need...shit, I need to buy envelopes for that...and maybe we could see the new Guardians movie, I would like to.
After we have sex. I need sex. Yes. And tomorrow night is another party at Voodoo and they want me to work the door, but Fire never sent me the sign up link. And I have another project I need to do for Voodoo, maybe I'll find time on Sunday in between getting an oil change, and my son's hair cut, and managing more auctions, and picking up cat food.
So today is another day, where I just don't have too many fucks to give about Zen's old friend and his issues, and I am reassured that I can set the matter of him aside for someday when I have time to concern myself...
Crap. I'm hungry. Gonna go eat!! (See all that stuff going on in those paragraphs? That is how my brain works when my blood sugar starts to drop. If I let it go another half hour, I'll be cold, shaking, headachy and mildly nauseous. An hour from now, and the feeling of "nerves" would intensify to where I feel like stress factors, even noises, are too much to handle.) I wonder if my blood sugar sensitivities have to do with my thyroid problem? I've been tested for hypoglycemia and diabetes and stuff, and it's always shown that I'm clear of those things. Maybe normal people have the same problem, they just eat more often than I do, and don't let themselves get this wonky. *shrug* I dunno...
You know what it feels like? Like on the inside, I'm Tweak from South Park.