The Truth is hard to take but important

[NeilS]

For 20 some years I was in a monogamous relationship with Hilary . About 10 years ago we opened up our relationship. It's been a total of 33 years we've lived together and fortunately with no end in sight, partly because of polyamory.

But around the 20 year mark she started an affair online . And of course the complete shock of finding out she was emotionally involved with another guy and I hadn't known about it was what hurt the most .

And naive me , I thought polyamory was largely going to be a solution for that kind of thing . I'm not talking about Hilary here. We've learned about that . I'm talking about a recent relationship with my friend Ingela. We met about 32 months ago. Prior to meeting me she was fully in the monogamy mind set . I introduced her to polyamory . I told her all about myself . We read the book Ethical Slut together . She met a guy who has turned out to be very important to her.. and she did all along tell me about him and him about me. BUT she didn't tell me she was developing strong feelings for him . In fact the opposite happened. Early on she said they seemed to have little chemistry. To hear her talk about him I thought, well this is fine. She just wasn't telling me the truths that were important. That she was developing strong feelings for him and that they had talked about some serious ways they could be involved.

So, what can happen when we aren't told those kinds of truth? One's partner can start deciding to act on those feelings and talked about things and then that's the point we find out about the depth of feelings that exist . Not by being told early on as it's happening but through actions. What actions have been loud words ? They started setting up teaching classes together. They started planning trips together. They started spending 4 nights a week sleeping together including exclusive bare back .. and the biggest of all, they decided to be monogamous together. Never did she tell me how emotionally involved she was becoming and how important he was becoming to her. Instead that was minimized.

So I've experienced this kind of shock of not knowing the most important truths in both monogamy and polyamory. In both cases I've gone through way more pain than if both Hilary and Ingela had told me the TRUTH early on .

I write this partly as a cautionary tale but I also would like your points of view on this. Or advise on how to protect my heart from this kind of thing ? I don't want to let this harden my attitude about relationships. The good news is Hilary and I have grown in our relationship since that stuff hit the fan 10 years ago. So it can be weathered but a lot of time has passed and the trust rebuilding has been done. I'm not so sure I own the patience for Ingela though.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Neil,

It sounds like you have gone through some pain in the past (and recent past/present?), and it's not because of polyamory, it's because of people (Hilary and Ingela) not being honest with you. In the future you will probably be more cautious, and more on the lookout for red flags. Like when someone starts setting up teaching classes with someone else, or when those two start planning trips together, and start spending four nights a week sleeping together including exclusive bareback ... those are all potential red flags, and you will be on the lookout for those types of things in the future.

Sometimes people withhold the truth in order to keep their options open. Ingela did not know whether you would leave her if she got close to the monogamous guy, so she "doctored the truth" when telling you about him. Truth be told, she probably doctored the truth when telling him about you as well. In saying this, I kind of paint her in a bad light, but the truth is, sometimes it's really really hard to be honest. She found herself in a situation where honesty did not seem to be the best policy. You can forgive her for that, while being skeptical if she approaches you in the future.

Like you said, it took you a long time to rebuild the trust with Hilary, and you could conceivably rebuild the trust with Ingela as well, but it would take a long time. I'm sorry that happened to you, you have been through some painful experiences, and I am not sure you're done with the pain. Try not to be bitter about polyamory, and try not to be bitter about your own ability to judge a situation. You started out by trusting the other person, and that is the healthiest way to start any relationship. Just be careful in the future, be ever on the lookout for red flags.

With sympathy,
Kevin T.

 

[PDXPoly389]

NeilS,
Unfortunately, people in poly relationships are still capable of the same kinds of minimizing and hurtful deceitful practices that people in monogamous relationships are capable of. Just because someone is intentionally practicing poly/EMN and they are open about it and a part of their identity does not mean they have done all the work they need to do in order to show up and function in a healthy and authentic way consistently for all their partners. There is always growth, learning, and healing we all are responsible for doing.

Personally, I know I have my own bad habits to be on the look-out for and need to constantly work to overcome. Just know its not you, its them. Those kinds of behaviors typically stem from insecure attachment styles. The best way to protect yourself would be to have discussions about attachment theory and figure out what environment is needed for both you and your partner to show up and have regular relationship check-ins and/or conflict conversations (when needed) in an environment where you both are operating from your secure attachment centers.

Wishing you continued healing, growth, and fulfillment in your connections!

 

[NeilS]

Thanks Kevin for the well written feedback.

Probably at this point the most important person to rebuild trust in would be myself. It's a kind of problem . Even though I'm not new to polyamory I've never gone through an experience nearly like I have with Ingela. The things you say were red flags i didn't see as that in the middle of it all partly because I thought it was OK given the context of polyamory. I did see how serious things were getting between them of course but I guess I was using some pretty thick blinders on my eyes to not understand where it was probably all leading to. In effect I was also not telling the truth to myself . If I ever find myself in a situation like that hopefully i will see that list of their actions as red flags .

Where polyamory comes in , in my view, is that I think I was less likely to add it all up and understand it as a real threat Instead of my GF and Meta just developing their relationship. It's a kind of relationship math. Add it all up and maybe move on before it gets far worse. I did ask her but she didn't respond very effectively about things.

It's funny to think about the probable reality that she might have minimized my importance to her when talking to him .

I think it's not really love to hide such deeper truths in such a self interested way. But I can think of times I've done the same thing.

 

[NeilS]

. There is always growth, learning, and healing we all are responsible for doing.

I agree totally of course . And ironically I think Ingela and I took turns minimizing other intimates to the detriment of our relationship in the longer run . Because both our actions later told the truth anyway

 

[kdt26417]

The first red flag with Ingela is/was her foundation of monogamy. You'll know in the future to look out for that one.

 

[dingedheart]

Hey Neil

I think romantic Relationships should be approached as being difficult or hard by the fact they involve people / humans.

And what we see here on the forum is that people sometime use poly or ENM for less than ethical reasons. Some use it as a soft exit from a marriage, some use it as feel equal or less lonely, and some use it as a back up plan, etc . The point is you can’t screen for all the possible less than honorable motivations. Getting kicked in the nuts is sort of the cost of being in the game ….heartache and pain are the flipside to love IMO.

THAT said it sounds like your poly journey was born out of cheating and the amount time that the affair was going on under your nose sort of reflects how deep a scar it left or how triggering future lapses in relationship honesty can be.
i think it’s very normal to do a self inventory looking back to trying to find flags you missed somas to never to do that again.

THEY say we teach people how to treat us. Is it possible you don’t handle hard truth well. You‘d be too hurt too depressed or maybe too angry?

 

[NeilS]

THEY say we teach people how to treat us. Is it possible you don’t handle hard truth well. You‘d be too hurt too depressed or maybe too angry.

Hard truth is painful but way less so than finding out through my partner's actions later in my view .

I never got angry with Ingela . She is a person that has a hard time knowing what her feelings are and then being able to live with them . I was doing my best to help her with that not be angry as you suggest.

It all gets kinda complicated after a while. It's a list of things like monogamy oriented people like kdt mentioned and my illusions of what was possible and my lack of experience in this version of polyamory and my infatuation clouding my vision of reality .

I also realize that early on Ingela probably didn't know how strong her feeling were for Don and maybe she wanted to be more sure before saying anything. But that time did come and nothing to that effect was ever said.

It's not easy to tell one partner how much we adore another partner obviously . I guess if we feel like those feelings will later result in obvious and drastic actions then its worth telling that truth verbally earlier rather than causing the much greater pain later through our actions.

 

[dingedheart]

Hard truth is painful but way less so than finding out through my partner's actions later in my view .

I think most people would agree with this. However lots of people are conflict or tough emotional topic avoidant.

I never got angry with Ingela . She is a person that has a hard time knowing what her feelings are and then being able to live with them . I was doing my best to help her with that not be angry as you suggest.

i wasn’t suggesting you got angry I was suggesting she might have feared some big negative reaction.

It all gets kinda complicated after a while. It's a list of things like monogamy oriented people like kdt mentioned and my illusions of what was possible and my lack of experience in this version of polyamory and my infatuation clouding my vision of reality .

youve been open or poly the past 10 yrs but only seeing ingela the last 3 ish yrs. Looking back see any patterns with the other women in the 7 yrs prior? And how soon after you started dating Ingela did she start dating Don ? And how did that all start.

I also realize that early on Ingela probably didn't know how strong her feeling were for Don and maybe she wanted to be more sure before saying anything. But that time did come and nothing to that effect was ever said.

Is it possible she wasnt sure it would last …it was NRE talking and that it would burnout or burn off in a bit. THAT Dons true colors and bad habits would show up ?

It's not easy to tell one partner how much we adore another partner obviously . I guess if we feel like those feelings will later result in obvious and drastic actions then its worth telling that truth verbally earlier rather than causing the much greater pain later through our actions.

I agree I think brutal honesty is generally preferred however outside of wanting to take their relationship mono how would it actually affect your relationship. Would you want or need to know if Don was a better lover ? Funnier…or if she thinks he smarter than you ? Maybe knowing some hard truths doesn’t make things better.

DO you have strong feeling for you wife ? which women did you have stronger feeling for your wife or Ingela ?

Is it the fact Ingela has strong feeling for Don or the fact she was more transparent when asked ?

 

[NeilS]

Is it the fact Ingela has strong feeling for Don or the fact she was more transparent when asked ?

It's funny , I'm not sure about how Ingela really feels about Don . I think that has been confusing given the combination of her dramatically downplaying her feelings while simultaneously acting as though she does have strong feelings for him.
I mainly take my cues on actions now given the lack of verbal indications from her . Ironically , within the context of friends I visited with her yesterday and she volunteered that she likes me .
One of the virtues of polyamory seems to be that breakups can feel much more like pauses or timeouts to be benefited from . And if it stays in the friend zone now our EX status can have softer edges to it too hopefully.

 

[dingedheart]

It's funny , I'm not sure about how Ingela really feels about Don . I think that has been confusing given the combination of her dramatically downplaying her feelings while simultaneously acting as though she does have strong feelings for him.
I mainly take my cues on actions now given the lack of verbal indications from her . Ironically , within the context of friends I visited with her yesterday and she volunteered that she likes me .
One of the virtues of polyamory seems to be that breakups can feel much more like pauses or timeouts to be benefited from . And if it stays in the friend zone now our EX status can have softer edges to it too hopefully.

Clearly she feels strong enough to want to be mono with him vs poly with both of you .

 

[NeilS]

Clearly she feels strong enough to want to be mono with him vs poly with both of you .

That's clear to you ha ? How do you know ? Quite funny how it could be "clear" to a third party when nothing about it is clear to me or probably her. In my view , given her monogamy mindset , she acted out of fear of losing Mr monogamy to another woman since that was the consistent and constant pressure he was putting on her

 

[SkeetScamp]

For 20 some years I was in a monogamous relationship with Hilary . About 10 years ago we opened up our relationship. It's been a total of 33 years we've lived together and fortunately with no end in sight, partly because of polyamory.

But around the 20 year mark she started an affair online . And of course the complete shock of finding out she was emotionally involved with another guy and I hadn't known about it was what hurt the most .

And naive me , I thought polyamory was largely going to be a solution for that kind of thing . I'm not talking about Hilary here. We've learned about that . I'm talking about a recent relationship with my friend Ingela. We met about 32 months ago. Prior to meeting me she was fully in the monogamy mind set . I introduced her to polyamory . I told her all about myself . We read the book Ethical Slut together . She met a guy who has turned out to be very important to her.. and she did all along tell me about him and him about me. BUT she didn't tell me she was developing strong feelings for him . In fact the opposite happened. Early on she said they seemed to have little chemistry. To hear her talk about him I thought, well this is fine. She just wasn't telling me the truths that were important. That she was developing strong feelings for him and that they had talked about some serious ways they could be involved.

So, what can happen when we aren't told those kinds of truth? One's partner can start deciding to act on those feelings and talked about things and then that's the point we find out about the depth of feelings that exist . Not by being told early on as it's happening but through actions. What actions have been loud words ? They started setting up teaching classes together. They started planning trips together. They started spending 4 nights a week sleeping together including exclusive bare back .. and the biggest of all, they decided to be monogamous together. Never did she tell me how emotionally involved she was becoming and how important he was becoming to her. Instead that was minimized.

So I've experienced this kind of shock of not knowing the most important truths in both monogamy and polyamory. In both cases I've gone through way more pain than if both Hilary and Ingela had told me the TRUTH early on .

I write this partly as a cautionary tale but I also would like your points of view on this. Or advise on how to protect my heart from this kind of thing ? I don't want to let this harden my attitude about relationships. The good news is Hilary and I have grown in our relationship since that stuff hit the fan 10 years ago. So it can be weathered but a lot of time has passed and the trust rebuilding has been done. I'm not so sure I own the patience for Ingela though.

Thanks for sharing this. I believe communication is so very important in every aspect of relationships, setting boundaries is another. Unfortunately, life goes on to make changes that may seem very insignificant to one's relationship with others that we fail to even recognize a change took place. I know I have become complacent and very comfortable in relationships and that is when they tend to fall apart. Sometimes I just feel that I shouldn't have to work that hard to get someone to want to be around me that I would rather be alone. I guess I am rambling but thanks again.

 

[NeilS]

Thanks for sharing this.

You are quite welcome. I think in both cases I outlined I wasn't being told the most important thing . That they were falling in love with another guy in a way that would eventually mean that significant changes would probably happen . We don't live in a fair world and we tend to act primarily on our own best interests so we might tend to keep deep feelings for another secret . THAT is what hurts. If I ever start another poly relationship with a woman I'm going to make it clear that both of us will tell the other asap about such feelings . I don't think it's worth getting involved and committing my emotions to a relationship otherwise going forward.

 

[SkeetScamp]

NeilS, Telling your 'other' asap is very important. That was a discussion I had to have with my poly partner. Knowing that partner has the feelings before they act upon them is really very important to me at this point of my life so that means the relationship could change drastically very quickly. Even if the partner does not have feelings but just chooses to like the company of this new person can effect the relationship in a few different ways.

 

[dingedheart]

That's clear to you ha ? How do you know ?

excellent point. However you stated you were keying off her actions and that’s a pretty big action.

Quite funny how it could be "clear" to a third party when nothing about it is clear to me or probably her.

Its “clear “ she made a choice I guess we speculate on her motivations or trying to quantify her feelings of like or love. End of the day will it make you feel better or worse ?

In my view , given her monogamy mindset , she acted out of fear of losing Mr monogamy to another woman since that was the consistent and constant pressure he was putting on her

OK …so losing Don to another women ( a non specific women ..just someone out there ) was of more value to her than the relationship with you so it comes down to what you can’t offer A relationship structure she prefers.

how old is Ingela ? And has she been married before ?

 

[NeilS]

how old is Ingela ? And has she been married before ?

Bottom line , when it comes to sex there were several reasons for Ingela to at least currently make the choice to go back to monogamy as opposed to staying with polyamory . I could list them all but fear and jealousy seemed to be the biggest factors .

But all that really is beside my main point with this thread that I've said a few times. Far better to hear about the significance of one's feelings for another and how that might effect one's relationship than to get the message far later in the form of actions, which hurts a lot more .. well to me it does. Where was the trust that she could tell me those things earlier before the actions and we could talk constructively about things ? So, that's something to learn from right there.

Fortunately Ingela and I had developed a friendship for over a year prior to being intimate so maybe for that reason we've gotten a good start at focusing on mainly friendship right now.

And there is something to be said for taking a break from sex and all the fears and potential jealousy that comes with it . I can tell the sexual tensions are there but minus all the fears and jealousy the friendship feels pretty good and gets us back to sort of a romantic friendship. Which was my ideal of a polyamory relationship anyway .

And hey , I have other partners .. one of the great things about polyamory. I'm not going without .

Ingela is 58 . She is still officially married though he moved out 3 years ago .. a sexless 10 year marriage.