Thoughts welcome.

[MissPan]

My ex-husband and I met nearly 15 years ago. We moved fast and went through a tumultuous relationship. Abuse, addiction, infidelity, codependency and control ran rampant and really fucked us both up. We grew to hate each other.

Fast forward nearly 10 years after that...we were getting divorced basically because we couldn't stand to be around each other anymore. Anything we had loved about each other was gone. Our hatred for each other of course was our own character flaws coming into play. I was devastated, he was not. I went through a lot of bad choices and so did he.

We always, through everything, find our paths coming back together. We're not able to stop it. We have a connection, always have...neither of us really get it though.

That being said, we are both very aware of other things that we want out of life. For him, it's sex, his biggest thing is being able to find and fuck whoever he wants whenever he wants. I want a sort of poly. I would like to be able to have one or two other partners while he can have an open style relationship with me. We would be each other’s primary.

My two boundaries are that we start from scratch, no old friends or fwb from either of our pasts and that he sticks to a one and done rule with the openness until our relationship is more stable and we are able to renegotiate things(hopefully). He is not yet sure of boundaries. He has a jealous streak that he is worried about and he also doesn't see the one and done rule to be fair, and I get it...I'm just not sure how to move past it without puting myself in a difficult place either.

Both of us are really on the fence about what we want. We can't tell if this is just rose colored or if god is putting us back together. We are both very spiritual people and know that we have a connection, but neither of us are really excited to repeat any of the more difficult parts of our pasts and neither of us want to be those people again either. We want easier, softer.

Thoughts?

 

[FallenAngelina]

Abuse, addiction, infidelity, codependency and control ran rampant and really fucked us both up. We grew to hate each other.
....We always, through everything, find our paths coming back together. We're not able to stop it. We have a connection, always have...neither of us really get it though....We would be each other’s primary...god is putting us back together."

Have you both gone through a thorough, long term recovery program that you continue to maintain? If not, you are still in a typical addiction cycle - the intensity, the connection you can't shake, the primary you can't live without, the breakups, the drama. This is what a codependent-addcit (or addict-addict) relationship looks like - intense cycles of heaven and hell in a relationship that feels deeply "special" and "meant to be." The truth is, you're in an addiction relationship cycle - which isn't to say that your love is not real, but that the addictions (both yours and his) are driving your relationship. Unless BOTH of you are currently active in an ongoing recovery program (not just one stint in rehab and not merely abstaining from substance) and have been for years, your relationship is headed for more drama upon drama, no matter the rules or understandings you come to. Abiding by rules doesn't change who a person is inside. What work have you BOTH done around recovery?

 

[MissPan]

feve milano

Have you both gone through a thorough, long term recovery program that you continue to maintain? If not, you are still in a typical addiction cycle - the intensity, the connection you can't shake, the primary you can't live without, the drama. This is what a codependent-addcit (or addict-addict) relatioship looks like - intense cycles of heaven and hell in a relationship that feels deeply "special" and "meant to be." The truth is, you're in an addiction relationship cycle - which isn't to say that love s not real, but the addictions are driving your relationship. Unless BOTH of you are currently active in an ongoing recovery program (and not merely abstaining from substance) and have been for years, your relationship is headed for more drama upon drama, no matter the rules or understandings you come to. Abiding by rules doesn't change who a person is inside. What work have you BOTH done around recovery?

That was a major part of our problem in the past. We are both in recovery programs and will be maintaining them. Neither of us want the negative anymore and that is very much why we are both so on the fence about this even being a option. I mean, we trust each other, and we love each other...but is that enough to make something like this work even with the things we didn't like about each other.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi MissPan,

It sounds like you and your ex-husband sincerely want to give your relationship another chance, though I have to say I am troubled by the bumps in the road, that have come up so soon. What if this is the best it can get, and it's all downhill going forward? I won't tell you not to try it, though; you are adults and can make your own decisions. I'm just saying I'm concerned. You had a really bad experience the first time around.

I think the biggest concern here is that whereas you seem to want and need some ground rules, he wants to do without any rules. It sounds like he's grudgingly agreeing to abide by the rules for now, but I don't know about the future. He may even break the rules in secret, and lie about it to you. You will need a backup plan for if that happens. Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst.

Don't rush into anything, give yourselves some time to decide what you really want.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[FallenAngelina]

The forums at Sober Recovery are very active and full of people with long term experience with relationships that involve addiction. There's a wealth of information there that i highly encourage you to make use of. I wouldn't go near poly with a ten foot pole unless you both have been in active recovery for several years. Before you can have a harmonious relationship of any kind, there's a lot you need to understand about yourselves individually and about the relationship, as both yourselves and your relationship are rooted in addiction.

Just read your intro section post and hoo boy - you definitely need to get over and talk with the Sober Recovery folks.

 

[MissPan]

The forums at Sober Recovery are very active and full of people with long term experience with relationships that involve addiction. There's a wealth of information there that i highly encourage you to make use of. I wouldn't go near poly with a ten foot pole unless you both have been in active recovery for several years. Before you can have a harmonious relationship of any kind, there's a lot you need to understand about yourselves individually and about the relationship, as both yourselves and your relationship are rooted in addiction.

Just read your intro section post and hoo boy - you definitely need to get over and talk with the Sober Recovery folks.

Yeah, like I said...we've both been in active recovery for three years. The individual parts of us part are being actively worked on. We're very aware of our addiciion issues in the past and those are mistakes that neither of us want to repeat together or apart.

 

[GalaGirl]

I have a question.

We always, through everything, find our paths coming back together. We're not able to stop it. We have a connection, always have...neither of us really get it though.

Ok. So you guys cannot be good exes and friends? And maintain your connection that way?

That being said, we are both very aware of other things that we want out of life. For him, it's sex, his biggest thing is being able to find and fuck whoever he wants whenever he wants. I want a sort of poly. I would like to be able to have one or two other partners

And he cannot find and fuck whoever he wants without including you in his post divorce network of lovers?

And you cannot have poly and find/have one or two partners without including him in your post divorce network of lovers?

My two boundaries are that we start from scratch, no old friends or fwb from either of our pasts and that he sticks to a one and done rule with the openness until our relationship is more stable and we are able to renegotiate things(hopefully).

Those are not boundaries for YOU to do. Those are agreements you are asking him to agree to. Agreements for HIM to do.

To me boundaries are things you put in place for YOU to obey and respect. Not other people. If I have a boundary of "I don't loan my things to careless people" and you ask to borrow my mower and I let you? And you break it without apologizing/repairing/replacing it? And come seeking my vacuum? I obey my personal boundary.

I tell you "NO." With regrets maybe, but no all the same. So I can be free of new shenanigans. My personal boundaries are there for ME to set up and for ME obey so I can be safe.

I'm not hearing what your actual boundaries are. What are they?

He is not yet sure of boundaries. He has a jealous streak that he is worried about and he also doesn't see the one and done rule to be fair.

Then he could decline. He does NOT agree to keep it to "one and done."

If he does not want to deal in jealousy while in your network? He could decline being in your network.

If you have a boundary that you cannot consider him for your network if he's not willing to do one offs to start... then you don't accept him in your new network. Not compatible.

Both of us are really on the fence about what we want. We can't tell if this is just rose colored or if god is putting us back together.

If you are on the fence, you are not enthusiastic. To me this does not sound like a "joyous yes" kind of thing.

To me anything less than a joyous yes is a "working no." Seems more realistic to accept that him and you being lovers again is a "working no. " And accept that it is more doable for each of you to agree to be (good exes and friends).

Could move forward in your respective wants. He can date post divorce looking for open relationships/casual sex. You can date post divorce looking for polyamory. And with each other you can be good exes and friends and maintain your close connection that way.

God might be putting you back together, but I don't think God is saying you HAVE to be doing it as lovers.

neither of us are really excited to repeat any of the more difficult parts of our pasts and neither of us want to be those people again either. We want easier, softer.

This want for (less drama, and an easier, softer relationship) cannot be met by (being good exes and friends)?

I'm just not sure how to move past it without puting myself in a difficult place either.

You could choose NOT to move past it, and choose not to participate in his post divorce network as a lover. Could choose to SKIP the difficulties.

You have been around the block with this guy as your lover a few times and it ended in mess. So don't sign up for the same ride again. Try a new thing -- be good exes and friends. That seems to be working out better. You guys seem to enjoy that.

Could accept that as lovers or as marrieds? You guys don't work well together like that. Neither of you likes who you each become like that. You bring out bad sides of each other like that. So you guys could stop doing that.

Be ok being friends. Put your energy into what works. Don't put your energy into what doesn't work. That would be my suggestion.

HTH!

Galagirl

 

[MissPan]

A lot of valid thoughts there.

As you seemed to be very confused by us being friends, it is very hard...he has a major tendency and sometimes I wonder, desire to hurt me, his track record with me shows it. He treats me this way because I have allowed him to and it feels like he just doesn't much care anymore.

And then, I go and start trying to figure out all the positives, why did this happen kind of thing, why did god do this kind of thing...I'm very much heart on the sleeve, sensitive, overthinker. I look at everything and try to figure out all the pieces to the puzzle.

Honestly, I have known, that this would not, could not, and should not work for a while now. While there is a piece that will forever be sad, I'm really not as hurt as I once thought I would be, I'm actually mostly relieved to be through it and onwards to the plans I have set for my life.

 

[GalaGirl]

Honestly, I have known, that this would not, could not, and should not work for a while now.

Glad to hear it. It sounds like you have made up your mind and quit sitting on the fence.

he has a major tendency and sometimes I wonder, desire to hurt me, his track record with me shows it. He treats me this way because I have allowed him to and it feels like he just doesn't much care anymore.

Then perhaps you are best being exes, and not even trying to be friends.

If I were in your shoes, I think I would definitely let the idea of being lovers go. If this guy has a tendency to hurt you? You don't have to stay in the line of fire.

You could have a personal boundary of "When someone has hurt me deeply, I don't sign up for more." Then you could obey it and not get/remain close with him.

And then, I go and start trying to figure out all the positives, why did this happen kind of thing, why did god do this kind of thing...I'm very much heart on the sleeve, sensitive, overthinker.

Perhaps God is trying to teach you to develop some personal boundaries so you can be a healthier version of you.

NOT to be so "heart on sleeve" with everyone who comes along. You don't have to wall yourself off from the whole world, but neither to you have to let them all in indiscriminately either. It's ok to be sensitive, but it isn't ok to let yourself be run over.

You could maintain flexible boundaries that define what behavior you will and will not put up with. Like a waist high fence with a gate. So people aren't running amok all over your yard, but you can talk to people over the fence and invite certain ones in closer when ready. Instead of "all or nothing" in your relationships, you could take it more "middle path" so you can feel healthier and more in balance when developing those relationships.

Galagirl

 

[FallenAngelina]

He treats me this way because I have allowed him to....

No - he treats you this way because he is full of confusion & pain and not anywhere near into "active recovery for three years" as someone who is truly active in recovery for three years would be. He might be attending meetings here and there, but there's no way that he is active in an ongoing recovery program. The kind of oblivious, deeply hurtful behavior you're experiencing just wouldn't be happening. Yes, you need to work on yourself (how "active" are you, truly?) and your boundaries, but in a good relationship, no partner has to keep the other in line and stand vigil over boundaries. The partners do this mostly for themselves and don't inflict their messy insides on one another. Active recovery is, among many things, about taking conscious, ongoing responsibility for one's thoughts and behaviors. If your BF seriously was working in a program, with daily reflection, emotional support and a checks-and-balances provider (AKA a sponsor,) he would not be mired in all of this after three years. And neither would you be - if you were seriously active in your own program.

Perhaps God is trying to teach you to develop some personal boundaries so you can be a healthier version of you.

This is a great way to interpret that "soul mates" feeling when you're in recovery.
Again, I'll recommend that you head over to the Sober Recovery forums, especially the Friends & Family section.

 

[MissPan]

No - he treats you this way because he is full of confusion & pain and not anywhere near into "active recovery for three years" as someone who is truly active in recovery for three years would be. He might be attending meetings here and there, but there's no way that he is active in an ongoing recovery program. The kind of oblivious, deeply hurtful behavior you're experiencing just wouldn't be happening. Yes, you need to work on yourself (how "active" are you, truly?) and your boundaries, but in a good relationship, no partner has to keep the other in line and stand vigil over boundaries. The partners do this mostly for themselves and don't inflict their messy insides on one another. Active recovery is, among many things, about taking conscious, ongoing responsibility for one's thoughts and behaviors. If your BF seriously was working in a program, with daily reflection, emotional support and a checks-and-balances provider (AKA a sponsor,) he would not be mired in all of this after three years. And neither would you be - if you were seriously active in your own program.








This is a great way to interpret that "soul mates" feeling when you're in recovery.
Again, I'll recommend that you head over to the Sober Recovery forums, especially the Friends & Family section.

Recovery is a very personal thing and I would appreciate if you could stop telling me or us how "into" our programs we are. We are BOTH active with active sponsers. Recovery isn't something that happens in three years, btw...it's a lifetime.

We are in the position we are in because we are working programs, being reflective and not wanting to jump into the same cycle we we're in for many years.

 

[Shaya]

Hi Miss Pan,

Welcome to the forums. You'll find a lot of good information here on healthy poly relationships. Your intro story makes me feel so sad. You sound like you've been through hell and back and your heaven is mixed in with hell.

It sounds awful and I hope you manage to find your peace without all the awful drama and pain.

My concern is that you and he will not be able to do poly. One relationship is proving hard enough for the two of you to manage. More than one will obviously be harder. To bind yourselves together so tightly as a primary with rules that limit engagement with others may not work. In particular, I wonder why you want him to have a "one and done rule" (which I interpret to mean he can fuck once with any person he meets then not again), whilst you want to have 1 or 2 other stable partners?

Perhaps monogamy is a more stable relationship model for you and he until things settle down. Or perhaps relationship anarchy, with the warning that I know next to nothing of relationship anarchy and it may truly be unsuitable for you.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Hope some of it helps.

With best wishes for your road in the future,
Shaya.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Recovery isn't something that happens in three years, btw...it's a lifetime.

We are in the position we are in because we are working programs, being reflective and not wanting to jump into the same cycle we we're in for many years.

Yes - a lifetime.

I apologize for presuming to evaluate your progress, but it's been my experience that people who are totally committed to their program do not prioritize "being able to find and fuck whoever he wants whenever he wants," especially when they have been seriously involved in a program for three years. Perhaps it's judgmental of me, but this doesn't sound like someone who is ready for ethical non-monogamy and it doesn't sound like someone who is self-reflective about how his behavior affects others, which is often what people in recovery focus upon. Your programs are your business, though - you are right.

Before I bow out, I'll once again encourage you to talk with folks who understand addiction relationship cycles. I wish you peace of mind in this relationship.

 

[MissPan]

My concern is that you and he will not be able to do poly. One relationship is proving hard enough for the two of you to manage. More than one will obviously be harder. To bind yourselves together so tightly as a primary with rules that limit engagement with others may not work. In particular, I wonder why you want him to have a "one and done rule" (which I interpret to mean he can fuck once with any person he meets then not again), whilst you want to have 1 or 2 other stable partners?

I am not sure how I feel about poly, but I did just recently learn about relationship anarchy and am interested in learning more. I do know I am not mono, sexually or emotionally...but with him things are a bit different...a bit more to think about beforehand this time around.

 

[WhatHappened]

we are both very aware of other things that we want out of life. For him, it's sex, his biggest thing is being able to find and fuck whoever he wants whenever he wants.

... he also doesn't see the one and done rule to be fair, and I get it...

... We can't tell if this is just rose colored or if god is putting us back together. We are both very spiritual people ....

Active recovery is, among many things, about taking conscious, ongoing responsibility for one's thoughts and behaviors.

it's been my experience that people who are totally committed to their program do not prioritize "being able to find and fuck whoever he wants whenever he wants," especially when they have been seriously involved in a program for three years. Perhaps it's judgmental of me, but this doesn't sound like someone who is ready for ethical non-monogamy and it doesn't sound like someone who is self-reflective about how his behavior affects others, which is often what people in recovery focus upon. Your programs are your business, though - you are right.

I would suggest you take a step back from him (sounds like you have already decided that) and relationships in general and spend a little time really thinking about what Angelina has said. It might help you answer some of your own questions.

Here are a few others:

• What does it mean to you to be 'very spiritual?'
• How does that look in your day to day life?
• How does it impact your treatment of other people or your interactions with them or the way you use the life you have been given?
• When you are on your deathbed about to face this God you think may have brought you two back together--what do you want your life to look like as you look back over it?
  
• What does this God who may (or may not) be bringing you two back together look like?
• What does he value?
• What does he want from us as human beings?
• What are his priorities?
  
• Is it possible that a very spiritual person is also a person whose priority in life is "being able to find and fuck whoever he wants whenever he wants?"
• How does "find and fuck whoever he wants whenever he wants" fit with 'very spiritual?'

How does he go about 'finding and fucking whoever he wants whenever he wants?' I.e.: tell them whatever they need to hear to go to bed with him? Or does he manage to sleep with plenty of women by telling them up front that his PRIORITY in life is "being able to find and fuck whoever he wants whenever he wants?" Do they really just get bowled over with desire by that and jump into bed with him?

If it takes nicer words than that, how do they then feel about finding out they were just notches on his bedpost? Do they feel used? Does it impact their view of men or relationships that impacts their own future? Do any of them end up with STDs as a result of sleeping with him? Do any of them end up pregnant, and from there either having an abortion or becoming single mothers? If anyone has become a single mother, how is his priority in life "being able to find and fuck whoever he wants whenever he wants," impacting these women and the resulting children?

Perhaps I'm as judgmental as Angelina but it seems to me that spirituality is something that helps us grow to be better human beings, and that naturally results in us putting good into the lives of others and making their lives better. Is he doing that by his priority?

This God who may (or may not) have brought the two of you back together--is he happy, or even okay with, how these women's lives are impacted by The Great Priority ("being able to find and fuck whoever he wants whenever he wants") or would he perhaps want those women to be treated better?

My manner of pointing out some things has been commented on by more than one here. I may be speaking a bit facetiously, but the questions are very, very serious. I am dead serious in suggesting you take a few days to actually write out the answers to those questions, to really ponder them.

Answer for yourself what spirituality really means to you, what you think this god really is or wants or values and I think you'll have clearer answers on everything else.

Unlike Angelina, I'm going to say our programs are not strictly our own business because how we behave in the world impacts others.