Tough Choices

Im planning on letting her know how I feel and what id like, and give her some time to think about what she'd like to do with that information. If she can't decide, I'll have to leave.
Click to expand...

@Bobbi how is this not an ultimatum?! Bearing in mind that OP wants partner to spend less time with metamour. People have learned that calling something an ultimatum is bad/toxic, so now they either can't present dealbreakers, or dress them up so they don't look like ultimatums which they most definitely are.

It's okay to have a price of admission.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
I guess I don't see expressing that you're picking partner A because they need you to make a choice as stating that it's "out of your control", unless you specifically state that. It seemed to me that it would be interpreted as the Hinge saying it's out of their control just by saying they're honouring a veto.

If someone said to me "my partner vetoed you", I'd immediately see it as their partner pulled rank and they facilitated it. Reluctantly, or not.

If they said things like "my hands are tied", I'd know they mean they've had to make a tough choice that they didn't want to make. "It's out of my control" means something more like "I'm entangled here to such a degree that I can't exercise my autonomy without compromising the security of myself or my dependents". That's a position a lot of unhappily married women are in.
Click to expand...
It’s simple. One way says that one partner is making the decisions in a relationship they are not part of. The other way the hinge is making the decision.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
@Bobbi how is this not an ultimatum?! Bearing in mind that OP wants partner to spend less time with metamour. People have learned that calling something an ultimatum is bad/toxic, so now they either can't present dealbreakers, or dress them up so they don't look like ultimatums which they most definitely are.

It's okay to have a price of admission.
Click to expand...
An ultimatum or emotional blackmale is a manipulation to attempt to get your way. “If you don’t do x then I’m gone”

that is very different from saying “I really need x in the relationship. can you accommodate me?” And if it’s not accommodated then choosing to end it.

in the second example there was no threat or emotional blackmail to manipulate a person to do what they want. They stated a need, the need was not satisfied, they left.
 
Bobbi said:
It’s simple. One way says that one partner is making the decisions in a relationship they are not part of. The other way the hinge is making the decision.
Click to expand...
In both cases, the Hinge is obviously making the decision. They were told to make a choice and they did. That's what they're telling you. The truth may well be that they'd never have made the choice if their partner wasn't at breaking point.

You may well get dumped just because someone's spouse doesn't like you.
 
Bobbi said:
An ultimatum or emotional blackmale is a manipulation to attempt to get your way. “If you don’t do x then I’m gone”

that is very different from saying “I really need x in the relationship. can you accommodate me?” And if it’s not accommodated then choosing to end it.

in the second example there was no threat or emotional blackmail to manipulate a person to do what they want. They stated a need, the need was not satisfied, they left.
Click to expand...
It's exactly the same thing. You're saying if you cannot accommodate my needs, I'll leave you. That's not a bad thing. But nor is stating it in its raw form "if you don't do X then I'm gone".
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
In both cases, the Hinge is obviously making the decision. They were told to make a choice and they did. That's what they're telling you. The truth may well be that they'd never have made the choice if their partner wasn't at breaking point.

You may well get dumped just because someone's spouse doesn't like you.
Click to expand...
It’s about owning your decisions and not blaming them on others. Oh how our society loves to blame others instead of taking responsibility for their choices.
 
Let me clarify


”if you don’t do x, then I’m gone”……….ultimatum

”I need more time with you, can you give me that?”………..not ultimatum
 
Bobbi said:
It’s about owning your decisions and not blaming them on others. Oh how our society loves to blame others instead of taking responsibility for their choices.
Click to expand...
This is what i am saying. If my partner discloses that their other partner pulled a veto and they chose them, they are owning their choices by disclosing that I'm the losing party. Its like you want to hear a false truth that this was all the Hinge's idea and they just want out. That might not be the truth though. The truth may well be that their partner gave an ultimatum and they had to pick out of two bad choices because their partner needs them to.
 
This seems like semantic differences. Which sometimes matter in the moment about how an ultimatum “feels” and whether it seems like responsibility is being shirked. You’d have to lie outright or by omission, or stonewall, to hide the fact that a partner’s ultimatum is what made you break off with an established partner.

Sometimes it looks ugly but nobody is the bad guy. People want what they want, that might change, and it’s okay for them to say “now I want this, and I’m willing to ask for it even though it makes you choose between relationships.” Anyone who responds to that by dumping an established relationship reaps the consequences of their choice. The dumped party has no more or less “right” to other outcomes than any of us ever does.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
If you're going to leave if your wish isn't fulfilled, it's still an ultimatum. And that's okay. That's your price of admission.. sometimes the price increases.
Click to expand...
Many people think as you do on this one but they are not the same. The action of the person leaving is NOT part of an ultimatum.

An ultimatum is words used to manipulate a person to do what they want. Many times, in an ultimatum, the person giving it won’t leave after all. They just use it to try to get their way.

the end result may be the same but one way involves emotional blackmail and manipulation. The other involves free will. If anyone gave me am ultimatum, the person to go would be the giver as I will not be with a person that’s manipulative and uses emotional blackmail to get their way. It’s a hard no from me.
 
Bobbi said:
Many people think as you do on this one but they are not the same. The action of the person leaving is NOT part of an ultimatum.

An ultimatum is words used to manipulate a person to do what they want. Many times, in an ultimatum, the person giving it won’t leave after all. They just use it to try to get their way.

the end result may be the same but one way involves emotional blackmail and manipulation. The other involves free will. If anyone gave me am ultimatum, the person to go would be the giver as I will not be with a person that’s manipulative and uses emotional blackmail to get their way. It’s a hard no from me.
Click to expand...
I agree that not leaving when told the answer is against you is manipulative.

But assuming the ultimatum giver plans to
follow through, both situations are the same. You're being told that you either do X, or the relationship will end. The Hinge has an equal amount of free will in both cases.

It's just were taught that if we say things in a nice way, they automatically lack venom. So if you say things the way you suggest, then it's not a nasty ultimatum, it's just you exercising personal boundaries. It's a trick
.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
Its like you want to hear a false truth that this was all the Hinge's idea and they just want out.
Click to expand...
It’s clear we have very different communication styles because nowhere have I said that, completely the opposite. As I said long ago, we agree on the premise. I use words very specifically to convey meaning as a direct speaker. You are indirect so you read between the lines which is why you think I’m saying the same thing no matter how I say it.

Lol one reason I don’t get in relationships with indirect communicators. We always fight about semantics and what was really meant by what I said😂😂.

thank you for this exchange though! Some readers will totally relate with you and some with me. And people might learn about their communication styles and maybe even get an AH HA moment of clarity about why they always have communication issues with their partner.
 
To me an ultimatum leaves no room for compromise/finding a solution.

"X must happen or I'm out" vs. "I am not happy with X and can't continue the way things are. Is there any solution we can find, short of us breaking up or you and the other partner breaking up?"

It's ambiguous to me which sentiment the OP was expressing in SeasonedPoly's example from the older thread. It didn't sound like a harsh ultimatum to me.

If SeasonedPoly's argument is that ultimatums aren't always harsh or unreasonable in poly, they are just a thing that can happen sometimes, then sure that makes sense.

But Bobbi's argument is that by definition, an ultimatum is by definition manipulation/emotional blackmail...so then we are working with two different definitions of what an ultimatum is.
 
This is sort of an aside but...I am actually skeptical of people who are quick to label a firm request or statement of consequences as "an ultimatum/manipulation tactic."

When I was 19, my first boyfriend (who was 28--yes red flag!) and I agreed to what I thought was a break for the summer while I was in the process of dropping out of college/figuring out my life...when I tried to follow up with him at the end of the summer to talk and find out what our status was, he didn't respond. Emails, phone calls, no response. Even when I begged him to just please tell me if we were broken up. Finally I emailed to say that if he didn't respond, I was going to call his mom to see if she knew where he was because I didn't understand what was going on.

Now, as a non-teenager, I wouldn't respond that way (and also I would grasp that a lack of response like that = broken up). And maybe I was being manipulative because I didn't actually want to call his mom at all...and I was certainly not in a healthy place emotionally...but my email got a response.

An angry response. My ex wrote that he had been busy and "how dare I give him an ultimatum!" and how dare I involve his mother! How he hadn't thought I was "a person who would do that."

There was a whole angry tirade. And then sort of as a PS he added that he considered our relationship over and it wasn't his fault if I couldn't "get over it" and hadn't "moved on yet."

The ridiculousness of this guy seems pretty obvious now, but at the time I was devastated by his words and felt that I had really screwed things up by issuing that ultimatum. I felt like I should have known that we had broken up at the beginning of the summer and that I had been "crazy" to keep contacting him for answers. For a while I carried around a lot of shame & self-blame. I resolved to never issue an "ultimatum" again in a relationship.

And also maybe to never again voice a strong need / strong consequence? My next boyfriend was emotionally abusive.

In retrospect I wish I had actually called my first ex's mom (whom I had met and had her phone number) and made her tell her son's 19-year-old ex-girlfriend that her son was alive and well but not interested in responding. LOL.

I honestly don't think my first ex would ever have told me that we were broken up if I hadn't threatened to call his mom.

This aside will probably muddy the waters about the definition of an "ultimatum," but it's what I think of when I hear the word.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
This is one of the places you said they should not mention the other partner and say it was all their choice.
Click to expand...
No. I never said don’t mention the other person.

I said don’t mention the “ultimatum.”

but you and I don’t agree on what an ultimatum is. I think it’s words used to threaten or manipulate, you think it’s the action of leaving if they don’t get what they need or want. Feel free to look it up yourself.

it’s not worth continuing this conversation as all you want to do is pick apart the meaning you infer from what I wrote. You will never get the answers you want from me because we communicate differently. Take my word for it….we both believe the same principle.
 
MeeraReed said:
It didn't sound like a harsh ultimatum to me.
Click to expand...
Yes it was nicely worded without aggression or judgement. You could say: "Are you going to stick with the marriage you signed up for, or parade around with this dude like a slut?" That's a problematic ultimatum.

MeeraReed said:
But Bobbi's argument is that, by definition, an ultimatum is manipulation/emotional blackmail. So then we are working with two different definitions of what an ultimatum is.
Click to expand...
Yes that's the definition people like to use to try and distinguish between ultimatums you're allowed to give and those you aren't. I say give ultimatums, just don't be a judgmental tool about it and follow through.
 
MeeraReed said:
This is sort of an aside but...I am actually skeptical of people who are quick to label a firm request or statement of consequences as "an ultimatum/manipulation tactic."

When I was 19, my first boyfriend (who was 28--yes red flag!) and I agreed to what I thought was a break for the summer while I was in the process of dropping out of college/figuring out my life...when I tried to follow up with him at the end of the summer to talk and find out what our status was, he didn't respond. Emails, phone calls, no response. Even when I begged him to just please tell me if we were broken up. Finally I emailed to say that if he didn't respond, I was going to call his mom to see if she knew where he was because I didn't understand what was going on.

Now, as a non-teenager, I wouldn't respond that way (and also I would grasp that a lack of response like that = broken up). And maybe I was being manipulative because I didn't actually want to call his mom at all...and I was certainly not in a healthy place emotionally...but my email got a response.

An angry response. My ex wrote that he had been busy and "how dare I give him an ultimatum!" and how dare I involve his mother! How he hadn't thought I was "a person who would do that."

There was a whole angry tirade. And then sort of as a PS he added that he considered our relationship over and it wasn't his fault if I couldn't "get over it" and hadn't "moved on yet."

The ridiculousness of this guy seems pretty obvious now, but at the time I was devastated by his words and felt that I had really screwed things up by issuing that ultimatum. I felt like I should have known that we had broken up at the beginning of the summer and that I had been "crazy" to keep contacting him for answers. For a while I carried around a lot of shame & self-blame. I resolved to never issue an "ultimatum" again in a relationship.

And also maybe to never again voice a strong need / strong consequence? My next boyfriend was emotionally abusive.

In retrospect I wish I had actually called my first ex's mom (whom I had met and had her phone number) and made her tell her son's 19-year-old ex-girlfriend that her son was alive and well but not interested in responding. LOL.

I honestly don't think my first ex would ever have told me that we were broken up if I hadn't threatened to call his mom.

This aside will probably muddy the waters about the definition of an "ultimatum," but it's what I think of when I hear the word.
Click to expand...
Yes this is exactly why i won't let anyone tell me that I can't give ultimatums.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top