Tough Choices

This is sort of an aside but...I am actually skeptical of people who are quick to label a firm request or statement of consequences as "an ultimatum/manipulation tactic."

When I was 19, my first boyfriend (who was 28--yes red flag!) and I agreed to what I thought was a break for the summer while I was in the process of dropping out of college/figuring out my life...when I tried to follow up with him at the end of the summer to talk and find out what our status was, he didn't respond. Emails, phone calls, no response. Even when I begged him to just please tell me if we were broken up. Finally I emailed to say that if he didn't respond, I was going to call his mom to see if she knew where he was because I didn't understand what was going on.

Now, as a non-teenager, I wouldn't respond that way (and also I would grasp that a lack of response like that = broken up). And maybe I was being manipulative because I didn't actually want to call his mom at all...and I was certainly not in a healthy place emotionally...but my email got a response.

An angry response. My ex wrote that he had been busy and "how dare I give him an ultimatum!" and how dare I involve his mother! How he hadn't thought I was "a person who would do that."

There was a whole angry tirade. And then sort of as a PS he added that he considered our relationship over and it wasn't his fault if I couldn't "get over it" and hadn't "moved on yet."

The ridiculousness of this guy seems pretty obvious now, but at the time I was devastated by his words and felt that I had really screwed things up by issuing that ultimatum. I felt like I should have known that we had broken up at the beginning of the summer and that I had been "crazy" to keep contacting him for answers. For a while I carried around a lot of shame & self-blame. I resolved to never issue an "ultimatum" again in a relationship.

And also maybe to never again voice a strong need / strong consequence? My next boyfriend was emotionally abusive.

In retrospect I wish I had actually called my first ex's mom (whom I had met and had her phone number) and made her tell her son's 19-year-old ex-girlfriend that her son was alive and well but not interested in responding. LOL.

I honestly don't think my first ex would ever have told me that we were broken up if I hadn't threatened to call his mom.

This aside will probably muddy the waters about the definition of an "ultimatum," but it's what I think of when I hear the word.
What you described was an ultimatum. I probably would have done that too in your shoes, worrying that he’s not okay, being young and not really knowing that he thinks the relationship is over. It’s too bad that wasn’t made clear to you. If I was concerned about the safety of a loved one, I’d reach out to their contacts to see if they are okay.
 
You could say: "Are you going to stick with the marriage you signed up for, or parade around with this dude like a slut?" That's a problematic ultimatum.
That’s just a question. No ultimatum there
 
No. I never said don’t mention the other person.

I said don’t mention the “ultimatum.”

but you and I don’t agree on what an ultimatum is. I think it’s words used to threaten or manipulate, you think it’s the action of leaving if they don’t get what they need or want. Feel free to look it up yourself.

it’s not worth continuing this conversation as all you want to do is pick apart the meaning you infer from what I wrote. You will never get the answers you want from me because we communicate differently. Take my word for it….we both believe the same principle.
ultimatum
/ˌʌltɪˈmeɪtəm/
noun
a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations.
"their employers issued an ultimatum demanding an immediate return to work"
 
To be clear on my perspective. I have given ultimatums before and might again. I just don’t use them or tolerate them when…

if you dont X then “our relationship is over” scenario is used. I see that as emotional blackmail..
 
To be clear on my perspective. I have given ultimatums before and might again. I just don’t use them or tolerate them when…

if you dont X then “our relationship is over” scenario is used. I see that as emotional blackmail..
If you don't stop abusing me in the ways you Do, I'm leaving. Would you call that emotional blackmail by an abuse victim?
 
I was thinking of a similar example.

Your spouse has a substance abuse problem. You says, "Get into rehab or I'm leaving."

It's an ultimatum, and it's reasonable.

But...would it actually work? I.e., once you are at the point of having to issue an ultimatum, isn't it already too late? And if someone feels "forced" into seeking treatment or only does it in order not to lose their partner...does it actually work?

The person with substance issues has to WANT to get help / want to change / make a choice OF THEIR OWN WILL and take ownership of their own situation.

There does seem to be something manipulative about issuing an ultimatum...essentially it takes place in circumstances where you can't otherwise get someone to do want you want (even if what you want is totally reasonable).

So a better way might be, "Since you have a substance abuse problem, I'm leaving / kicking you out. I love you and I will consider getting back together if you are able to get help and get clean."

On the other hand, is that skipping the step where you lay out what the consequences are and give someone a chance to change things?
 
So a better way might be, "Since you have a substance abuse problem, I'm leaving / kicking you out. I love you and I will consider getting back together if you are able to get help and get clean."

On the other hand, is that skipping the step where you lay out what the consequences are and give someone a chance to change things?
For me? I wouldn’t want to be waiting around or monitoring success when they didn’t even initiate the program without my kick in the pants. I’d rather be outside the problem, willing to have status shared with me proactively. Getting on with the life I have some control over.

I’ve been trying to think of an ultimatum I have ever given/would ever give. I *think* I mostly go the route of “yep, this is my limit of [q] , so my action is [x]” — usually people would know ahead of time I had that limit. But if they didn’t, I wouldn’t feel obligated to make myself tolerate what’s beyond my limits just to give them time to strategize whether and how to satisfy my need. Rather have them feel free to be what they want to be, and discover that being without me (in whatever capacity) is probably just fine.
 
I was thinking of a similar example.

Your spouse has a substance abuse problem. You says, "Get into rehab or I'm leaving."

It's an ultimatum, and it's reasonable.

But...would it actually work? I.e., once you are at the point of having to issue an ultimatum, isn't it already too late? And if someone feels "forced" into seeking treatment or only does it in order not to lose their partner...does it actually work?

The person with substance issues has to WANT to get help / want to change / make a choice OF THEIR OWN WILL and take ownership of their own situation.

There does seem to be something manipulative about issuing an ultimatum...essentially it takes place in circumstances where you can't otherwise get someone to do want you want (even if what you want is totally reasonable).

So a better way might be, "Since you have a substance abuse problem, I'm leaving / kicking you out. I love you and I will consider getting back together if you are able to get help and get clean."

On the other hand, is that skipping the step where you lay out what the consequences are and give someone a chance to change things?

This is the problem for me. It's like something you do when you've let other things slip.

On the "skipped step", that's the other dilemma. You have to decide whether to issue the ultimatum and accept the high risk that any consent is coerced, or you take a paternalistic approach where you deny the other the chance to make a choice based on their preferences.

I've taken the route of feeling like I shouldn't be feeling the need to issue "this or I leave" ultimatums outside of highly entangled long term relationships. Like if my nesting partner developed an addiction. That's because leaving will hurt me (practically, as well as emotionally) and it's in my own interests to get that back on track. If we break up, it will set me back on some life goals/security.

I shouldn't feel the need to do that in relationships that don't have that entanglement purely because I should either be able to walk away only feeling emotionally hurt and it's far easier to be flexible in your relationship model with someone new or with whom you lack that level of entanglement. You can just keep it to friends or very casual.
 
If you don't stop abusing me in the ways you Do, I'm leaving. Would you call that emotional blackmail by an abuse victim?
When abuse is involved, you have to protect yourself and do whatever is necessary. I would argue that you leave first then make a reverse ultimatum….im not coming back until you….

context is everything in ultimatums.
 
I was thinking of a similar example.

Your spouse has a substance abuse problem. You says, "Get into rehab or I'm leaving."

It's an ultimatum, and it's reasonable.

But...would it actually work? I.e., once you are at the point of having to issue an ultimatum, isn't it already too late? And if someone feels "forced" into seeking treatment or only does it in order not to lose their partner...does it actually work?

The person with substance issues has to WANT to get help / want to change / make a choice OF THEIR OWN WILL and take ownership of their own situation.

There does seem to be something manipulative about issuing an ultimatum...essentially it takes place in circumstances where you can't otherwise get someone to do want you want (even if what you want is totally reasonable).

So a better way might be, "Since you have a substance abuse problem, I'm leaving / kicking you out. I love you and I will consider getting back together if you are able to get help and get clean."

On the other hand, is that skipping the step where you lay out what the consequences are and give someone a chance to change things?
Addiction is a very huge topic. I spent the better part of my life helping families through interventions and co-dependency. Ultimatums can be used effectively to get people into rehab but the key is ending the co-dependency. You cannot make an addict get better, they have to choose it. Family members need to learn how to break co-dependent behaviors to get out of the abusive relationship regardless if the addict goes to rehab or not.
 
When abuse is involved, you have to protect yourself and do whatever is necessary. I would argue that you leave first then make a reverse ultimatum….im not coming back until you….

context is everything in ultimatums.
But ultimatums are inherently manipulative and two wrongs don't make a right. So surely the only ethical thing to do is leave. Otherwise we get into this subjective discussion of when it's okay to make one of these inherently manipulative ultimatum things and when it is not.

I hope you see I'm kind of being sarcastic here. But I'm trying to highlight why I moved on from seeing ultimatums as bad and realising I actually make them all the time.

The bad stuff comes in when you either don't honour the ultimatum or use whatever power you have to punish the other person for not appeasing you. Like if a spouse tried to call a veto, it wasn't honoured, so they did leave. However now they're making it difficult for their ex to see the kids or have access to money or whatever.

Otherwise it's just a person realising their boundaries and expressing them.
 
I think this all got off topic, after all, original thread was talking about a spouse giving an ultimatum because they felt insecure. Not because they were abused or because the relationship is no longer working for them and they are ready to bail unless something changes….it’s because they are insecure and want to feel in control of their partner. An insecure person has no intention of leaving, they just want to feel secure or in control. Ultimatums used in this way are manipulative. Plain and simple.
 
I think this all got off topic, after all, original thread was talking about a spouse giving an ultimatum because they felt insecure. Not because they were abused or because the relationship is no longer working for them and they are ready to bail unless something changes….it’s because they are insecure and want to feel in control of their partner. An insecure person has no intention of leaving, they just want to feel secure or in control. Ultimatums used in this way are manipulative. Plain and simple.
Yes I think we would all agree when it's just as simple as that. But it's rarely that simple when you know the entire context.

And one thing that I've found consistently relevant when we talk about vetoes/ultimatums is that there is often reason the partner issuing the choice has good reason to cling to it.

For example, the wife who has consistently seen their husband bail on household and childcare responsibilities and so has no reason to think he will maintain a balance with a new relationship.

As the vetoed partner, one often doesn't have the entire context and they have an emotional investment that makes it easy to blame the metamour and their unreasonable demands.

The funny thing to think about is some of those metamours have been advised to essentially issue an ultimatum on forums like these because we've heard their side of the story.
 
But it's rarely that simple when you know the entire context.
So true. Reality is, only the people involved know their part of the story. Most of the time they don’t even see the entire picture from all sides. We certainly know the least here and are just speculating. The best they can do is evaluate what they want and what’s important to them and make the decision that fits them and let their partners make the one that’s right for them and all involved feel the resulting grief.

This thread is about making these tough choices. It's not off topic.
Fair point. It just keeps getting bigger so I prefer it stay within poly relationships as that’s why we are here 🙂
 
So true. Reality is, only the people involved know their part of the story. Most of the time they don’t even see the entire picture from all sides. We certainly know the least here and are just speculating. The best they can do is evaluate what they want and what’s important to them and make the decision that fits them and let their partners make the one that’s right for them and all involved feel the resulting grief.
Or relief!
 
Back
Top