Tough Choices

I had a relationship with someone (Apple) who needed a nesting style relationship with me but I was already nesting with someone (Pear) who wanted me to be home more than I was.

Pear wanted a level of entanglement that wasn't suited to me at that time and that was the real problem.

I left and moved in with Apple. It didn't last long but we have stayed friends.
 
Another time, which is actually more obvious when I come to think of it. I had a partner who was affiliated with a venue/staff member who was problematic. My other partner was directly harmed by the staff member and ill supported by the venue.

It wasn't straight forward because where you lie on the issue and harm depends on your social views. The harmed partner made it clear they couldn't be with me if I was with my other partner. Ultimately I decided to leave that other partner because I agreed with my first one that the venue and person were indeed harmful
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
Have you ever had a relationship where the needs of 2 or more partners clashed so much that choosing between the relationships/partners became a real option?

Who was it with? What did you do and why?
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Hello again! I see that our discussion yesterday brought up some food for thought for both you and I. I came away from our conversation with questions in my head, and with a need to bring our chat and my questions to my partner. So thanks for bringing me things to think on. I realized that I shouldn't assume about my partner being on the same page.

So I read out our conversation you and I had yesterday, and asked how he felt about that. While he understands where you are coming from, he did confirm that he and I *are* on the same page, and that no, he wouldn't end one relationship to save the other. The only issue that could interfere in the two relationships he has with me and his other GF is around all of us living in different areas/distance, but he says that the three of us can work together to make sure the distances are not a big deal. He and I agree on the premise (and I understand that this also how it works in monogamy) that *if* a relationship is to end, it's because the relationship no longer serves the two people involved, and the two people involved do not wish to continue, and NOT because of an external person or other relationship.

I do get where a relationship might need to be ended because of another, but I am hoping it can be avoided at all costs. And as to my situation, no, you are wrong - my partner will not end one to save another, and now that I have confirmed that, I can feel good that both are equally important, as I have thought all along. My situation is not part of the issue that you speak of, thankfully.

Thanks for raising this, and I look forward to seeing what others say here.
 
WestCoastRedhead said:
) that *if* a relationship is to end, it's because the relationship no longer serves the two people involved, and the two people involved do not wish to continue, and NOT because of an external person or other relationship.
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I don't see how this contradicts the point I made in the other thread.

Sometimes, a relationship no longer "serves" one of the two people involved because of the conflicting needs of another partner.

That's when a relationship that used to "serve" is in danger of no longer "serving". And this can be any one involved who feels this way.

A non-nesting relationship can work fine until the needs of any of the people involved change. It might be that a married couple have a baby, and now this additional lack of availability no longer "serves" their other partners. It might be that a non-nesting partner needs contact and time that just doesn't mesh with the needs of your spouse (a KTP vs parallel type issue) because anyone's needs can evolve over time.

A good poly saying is that relationships do not occur in a vacuum. It could well be the needs, choices and limitations of a third person that sparks the acknowledgement that a relationship is no longer serving the people involved.

You could "need" to move for a dream job that creates distance more than you need to give up the opportunity and stay within a practical distance for your partner and your metamour.

Your partner could find themselves "needing" to be nearer you than his other partner, now confronted with the choice to have less contact with you.

His other partner could find herself "needing" to be out of a long distance relationship because it doesn't "serve' them. She already struggles now he leaves for weeks at a time.

Somewhere in that is an ultimatum where your partner decides to either be near you, or appease his partner's need not to move away and effectively end their relationship given her need for local partners.

Doesn't mean anyone said "it's me or her" or that anyone wanted to effectively freeze the other out. It could be a devastating situation between three people who.care deeply about the welfare of the others. But it's the reality of what happens.

The only Real way to protect against it is to find people who seem to want the same type of relationship as you do and have only involved themselves with similar relationships.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
I don't see how this contradicts the point I made in the other thread.

Sometimes, a relationship no longer "serves" one of the two people involved because of the conflicting needs of another partner.

That's when a relationship that used to "serve" is in danger of no longer "serving". And this can be any one involved who feels this way.

A non-nesting relationship can work fine until the needs of any of the people involved change. It might be that a married couple have a baby, and now this additional lack of availability no longer "serves" their other partners. It might be that a non-nesting partner needs contact and time that just doesn't mesh with the needs of your spouse (a KTP vs parallel type issue) because anyone's needs can evolve over time.

A good poly saying is that relationships do not occur in a vacuum. It could well be the needs, choices and limitations of a third person that sparks the acknowledgement that a relationship is no longer serving the people involved.

You could "need" to move for a dream job that creates distance more than you need to give up the opportunity and stay within a practical distance for your partner and your metamour.

Your partner could find themselves "needing" to be nearer you than his other partner, now confronted with the choice to have less contact with you.

His other partner could find herself "needing" to be out of a long distance relationship because it doesn't "serve' them. She already struggles now he leaves for weeks at a time.

Somewhere in that is an ultimatum where your partner decides to either be near you, or appease his partner's need not to move away and effectively end their relationship given her need for local partners.

Doesn't mean anyone said "it's me or her" or that anyone wanted to effectively freeze the other out. It could be a devastating situation between three people who.care deeply about the welfare of the others. But it's the reality of what happens.

The only Real way to protect against it is to find people who seem to want the same type of relationship as you do and have only involved themselves with similar relationships.
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Indeed, and I have found said people :)

ETA: a line I just read from another poster on another thread had me thinking, as it resonates:
"I wouldn't entertain weighing the two relationships, because asking me to do that in the first place is a hard stop for me."
 
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WestCoastRedhead said:
Indeed, and I have found said people :)

ETA: a line I just read from another poster on another thread had me thinking, as it resonates:
"I wouldn't entertain weighing the two relationships, because asking me to do that in the first place is a hard stop for me."
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Yes. That's pretty much how I feel about someone asking me to move to monogamy.

These days, I meet people who are already poly or prefer poly partners so the choice is never poly vs mono. If there's a choice to be made, it's usually more along the lines of my chosen life with my nesting partner and metamour not lining up with the long term needs of other partners, in some way.

I was seeing someone who made it clear that she felt uncomfortable being in the home of a man. She purposely didn't involve herself with people who have male partners unless it could be strict DADT and she wasn't ever confronted with their presence.

I did two things that ultimately ended our relationship. The first being moving away and living with my now nesting partner. It meant that my other partner only saw me when she came to me as she couldn't host. She never could host.

The second was that I agreed to my male metamour using this place as a home for much of the time. It was something my partner needed and it was important to me that she felt content with our living situation and had the freedom to bring other partners home.

I knew that it meant she wouldn't feel comfortable coming here like she did, but more of my individual life goals are enmeshed with my nesting partner. That's why we are in the relationship we are.

I know for a fact my ex felt some sense of betrayal from my choice. She felt I had changed my mind. The truth is that at the time we made the agreement, her needs weren't obstructive, and then they were.

I think it can be easy for poly people to feel like we kind of give up the right to end a relationship or make such choices that favour one relationship or person over the other. We don't see it as just one of the inevitable downsides of a relationship - a risk. We see it as something we can avoid with enough communication and pre-agreements.

It has been beneficial for me to let go of what I now see as a false sense of control.
 
I had one breakup of sorts (due to needs not being in line with the situation) in high school. Nothing like that in my adult life however.

I do strongly agree with what Marcus said in the one other thread: "I wouldn't entertain weighing the two relationships, because asking me to do that in the first place is a hard stop for me."
 
I was following on the other thread but didn’t think it was appropriate to discuss this there. Thank you for moving the conversation.

I think the important part of this is figuring out what YOUR decision is and owning it. If partner A wants one thing and partner B wants another, it’s up to you to decide and own your decision. Never suggest you are doing it for the “winning” partner.

if partner A gave me that ultimatum, I would then start thinking that I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who would do that to me knowing it would hurt me deeply. So yes, hard stop for me as well. Others might say “this is my wife/husband and I’m committed to them no matter what.” Regardless, Never tell partner B you have to or you’ll lose partner A, Or that partner A gave an ultimatum. Decide and own that the relationship is no longer what you want. Why you changed your mind is irrelevant to partner B. They just need to know it’s your choice and it’s over.
 
Bobbi said:
if partner A gave me that ultimatum, I would then start thinking that I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who would do that to me knowing it would hurt me deeply. So yes, hard stop for me as well. Others might say “this is my wife/husband and I’m committed to them no matter what.” Regardless, Never tell partner B you have to or you’ll lose partner A, Or that partner A gave an ultimatum. Decide and own that the relationship is no longer what you want. Why you changed your mind is irrelevant to partner B. They just need to know it’s your choice and it’s over.
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What if the relationship between Partner B and the Hinge is going really well? You'd just be dumped out of the blue for no reason. You'd be confused and ask. It isn't realistic for the Hinge to hide it in every circumstance.

We should be able to take someone saying to us that they had to make a choice between their marriage and this relationship because both cannot exist together. They chose their marriage.

I think if you're not ready to deal with that reality and hear that truth, you're probably not ready to be a partner to a married person. They shouldn't have to lie to you for you to take it.

Sometimes the Hinge would have stayed in both relationships if not given an ultimatum. Why should they pretend otherwise? To spare you from dealing with the reality of trying to make someone's spouse your "equal" partner? Nah.

I think we have to deal with the fact that spouses are real people important to their partners. Often their feelings are more of a pull than those of someone new and less entangled. That's just reality. I feel more for the people I know than I do for strangers. I feel like some poly people forget that and feel like they should have "equal" influence over the decisions of a new partner. You just won't unless the Hinge was already unhappy in their established relationship. You're not that significant in their lives (yet).

I think things like these "secondary bill of rights" has warped people's minds to reality and created a sense of impractical entitlement that is only hurting those who want to be the pseudo-spouse of someone already married. From where I see, it's mostly cis women seeking out married men who are left reeling by the experience.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
What if the relationship between Partner B and the Hinge is going really well? You'd just be dumped out of the blue for no reason. You'd be confused and ask. It isn't realistic for the Hinge to hide it in every circumstance.
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The hinge would need to assess what they want and make that decision. Owning that it’s their choice if they end it and that the relationship is no longer working for them.

SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
We should be able to take someone saying to us that they had to make a choice between their marriage and this relationship because both cannot exist together. They chose their marriage.
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That is one way you can explain as it accepts responsibility for ending the relationship without blaming partner A for giving ultimatum which is what you want to avoid.

SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
They shouldn't have to lie to you for you to take it.
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Never lie to partners. That’s not what I’m saying. Own your decision instead of blaming things on the other partner, “she made Me choose” vs “l choose”

SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
I think we have to deal with the fact that spouses are real people important to their partners. Often their feelings are more of a pull than those of someone new and less entangled. That's just reality. I feel more for the people I know than I do for strangers. I feel like some poly people forget that and feel like they should have "equal" influence over the decisions of a new partner. You just won't unless the Hinge was already unhappy in their established relationship. You're not that significant in their lives (yet).
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exactly! At the same time, people aren’t things to be disposed of. partner B should get the respect of a clean break where hinge says “these two relationships are not working together and I’ve decided to end this one.” (Or some variation) That is a clean honest break.

Vs “I don’t want to end this, I’m really enjoying this relationship but my wife has said she will leave if I don’t. Sorry, my hands are tied” that leaves both people feeling like crap because wife made the decision for them. Hinge partner doesn’t want to take responsibility for the decision they(he) made. It’s shitty to treat someone that way (two people, in fact) Partner B is not in a relationship with partner A. During a breakup, the other partner shouldn’t be spoken about. Although they have a factor in the DECISION to end the relationship, they play no part in the actual breakup. The decision was the hinge partners and they should own that decision.
 
Bobbi said:
partner B should get the respect of a clean break where hinge says “these two relationships are not working together and I’ve decided to end this one.” (Or some variation) That is a clean honest break
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But this how I see this going:

A: these two relationships aren't working together and I've decided to end this one.

B: You've seemed happy and enthusiastic though. What's not working for you?

This is where A starts having to actively conceal that their spouse's unhappiness is the influencing factor

A: I need to spend more time at home.

B: but we've been talking about more time/haven't changed how much time we have together/this is what we agreed to/this wasn't a priority to you before/we can do less time

A: No, I have to end it. There's no middle ground.

B: Last week you were just saying how happy you were/how good things were. What has changed?

A: Nothing. Just changed my mind.

A is now gaslighting B who knows that everything was fine. I can't see how this is more ethical than telling the other person that it's because there has been a conflict of needs with another partner and they haven't done anything wrong.

B: Is it because I went on that date last week/text metamour/told my friend about you/asked you to come to that BBQ?

A uses this opening to go with a half-truth without "blaming" metamour

A: It's just getting too serious

B: But you said that was okay




You get the picture.

I can't see how that's better than saying my spouse is unhappy, I had to make a tough choice. We have to end things.

That's the truth!
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
my spouse is unhappy, I had to make a tough choice. We have to end things.
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I think you and I are on the same page. something Is getting lost in translation. This would also be a good reason. How you “see this going” is not what I described.

Again, take responsibility for the fact that YOU had to make the choice. This is my point. Don’t shuffle the blame onto the “winning” partner or mention the ultimatum. It’s not helpful.

you can say you are having trouble in your other relationship and you want to, or need to, focus on it. Or that you won’t have time or energy to give partner B the energy and respect you want to give the relationship (because you won’t be seeing them much or at all) and so I’m choosing to end it.

There are so many ways to be truthful about what’s happening without saying “partner A will leave me if I don’t end things with you. Sorry, it’s out of my control.”
 
Bobbi said:
“partner A will leave me if I don’t end things with you. Sorry, it’s out of my control.”
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Seems like this (bolded) is the disingenuous part that's unfair to all parties, right? It's not out of the person's control, that statement is an attempt to deflect the negative feelings of Partner B away from them, onto Partner A.

The painful but understandable truth, honestly portrayed, would sound* more like: "Partner A will leave me if I don't end things with you. And the reason that information about Partner A's feelings is relevant to you, Partner B, is because I have decided to preserve my relationship with Partner A and end my relationship with you."

*(I'm not suggesting this is literally how a compassionate person would communicate, I'm just saying this describes what is actually taking place!)
 
Albert Ross said:
Seems like this (bolded) is the disingenuous part that's unfair to all parties, right? It's not out of the person's control, that statement is an attempt to deflect the negative feelings of Partner B away from them, onto Partner A.
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Exactly!

When in fact, the hinge is choosing to end the relationship and should take responsibility for that choice. Yes, they considered what partner A said to them in making that decision, but in the end, the decision was theirs and theirs alone. They may not like the decision but they made it.
 
Bobbi said:
Exactly!

When in fact, the hinge is choosing to end the relationship and should take responsibility for that choice. Yes, they considered what partner A said to them in making that decision, but in the end, the decision was theirs and theirs alone. They may not like the decision but they made it.
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But nobody ever added the bolded part where A says it was out of their control. I certainly didn't. I said they should just tell their truth which is that everything was okay until their partner wasn't okay.

It seems like people just don't want to know that the Hinge picked someone else over them, even if that's the truth.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
But nobody ever added the bolded part where A says it was out of their control.
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It was an example. I think what’s happening here is you were talking about a specific situation (the other thread) and I’m giving general thoughts on ultimatums in general…..my opinion
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
It seems like people just don't want to know that the Hinge picked someone else over them
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it’s bound to happen eventually If they are polyamorous.

I learned that lesson playing dodgeball in elementary school…. I’ve been picked over for jobs, game night groups, partners……I don’t mean to sound crass but having someone else picked over them is a fact of life. It hurts, sure. But there’s no way to avoid this phenomenon Completely.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:

Here is an example of a poster about to drop an ultimatum.
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This one seems much easier as there’s not a pre existing marriage. I also don’t see an ultimatum at play. In fact, poster says they don’t want it to even sound like an ultimatum. Poster should express needs to hinge. If hinge can accommodate their needs then great, if not then they have to decide if they can live with it or not. If not then they can move on. It’s more about compatibility than ultimatum.

I’m limited in my time. I let potential partners know this and that it won’t change. If the relationship grows past what I can give and the other person wants more, then we aren’t compatible. Nobody has the right to expect a partner to bend over backward to change their life to make partner happy. If partner isn’t happy they should leave.

All relationships are not created equal. Every relationship is important as are the people in them, but they are not equal. The level of feelings, commitment, entanglement is different for each relationship. People should get that.
 
I guess I don't see expressing that you're picking partner A because they need you to make a choice as stating that it's "out of your control", unless you specifically state that. It seemed to me that it would be interpreted as the Hinge saying it's out of their control just by saying they're honouring a veto.

If someone said to me "my partner vetoed you", I'd immediately see it as their partner pulled rank and they facilitated it. Reluctantly, or not.

If they said things like "my hands are tied", I'd know they mean they've had to make a tough choice that they didn't want to make. "It's out of my control" means something more like "I'm entangled here to such a degree that I can't exercise my autonomy without compromising the security of myself or my dependents". That's a position a lot of unhappily married women are in.
 
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