Transitioning to sexual relationship for the legs of my "V"

[lunabunny]

I wrote this for my own blog, but thought I'd post it here too in case experienced forum folk have any words of wisdom regarding how my partners should slowly transition from mainly platonic, non-romantic "legs" of a V-triad BACK into a loving FWB type arrangement. (I am the hinge.)

*************

It's been about nine months since the awkward (read: hideous) real-life threesome that almost caused an unbridgeable fracture in my poly V.

As anyone who's followed my story knows, this incident resulted in any kind of sexual interaction between us as a group being put on ice - and put a complete stop to anything physical which may have been reignited between Jester and Boho as a consequence.

Around August, there was an unpremeditated episode of sexting/cybering that involved all three of us. Unlike previous times this had happened, it wasn't the least bit uncomfortable... and since then, we've gone to that place a couple more times as a group; but always cautiously, and always led by me. (I think my reaction to the in-person incident really spooked my partners. Neither is willing to risk losing me over a bit of fun, so they never initiate.)

Overall, the relationship with Jester has markedly improved since October. He has been making a greater effort to communicate in general, and to show me (in words and other ways) that he loves and appreciates me. Naturally, this has resulted in me feeling more secure in the relationship.

Similarly - and possibly because she chose to take a step back from Jester rather than screw things up between us even more due to her desire not to be "left out" of his and my relationship - I now feel way more secure in my relationship with Boho also, and more trusting of her motivations for being with me "for me".

My newfound sense of security has manifested in many other positives, including; relieving anxiety and depression levels, increased peace of mind, clearer focus on what I want out of life and where I see these relationships/this relationship heading, and more clarity in how to achieve the desired outcome.

I also feel a greater sense of love for the "dyad" that is Jester/Boho, independent of my involvement. At times, this feeling has approached the oft-vaunted "compersion" - something I seriously doubted I'd ever be able to genuinely feel. (Even describing the relationship between those two as a "dyad" used to set my teeth on edge prior to the past few months.) Sometimes I still feel jealousy; often over surprising things that are far from sexual in nature.

Still, I finally feel ready to "allow" (for want of a better word) their relationship to progress beyond a carefully-reconstructed platonic friendship with a side order of occasional three-way online flirtation/sex relief into an actual two-way sexual relationship, with some limitations. (To clarify: I say "reconstructed" because they used to be in a FWB thing before I began to date them separately.)

I discussed my thoughts with each of my partners... and both seemed amenable to the idea, without wanting to show too much unbridled enthusiasm to rip each other's clothes off immediately. (They know that one of my fears was that they, especially Boho, was just with me as a means of trying to get back with Jester with whom she was deeply in love for a long time.)

I then wrote them a joint email, outlining my thoughts, desires, needs, boundaries, hard and soft limits - inviting them to address any aspect they may disagree or have issues with. Neither of them thought I was being unreasonable regarding my requests, even though I insisted that passionate kissing be taken off the table and also specified that I'm not ready for them to engage in full PIV sex just yet. That said, I DID make it clear that I'd be prepared to negotiate on some of my "rules" should either/both of them feel strongly about something.

Of course, nothing has actually happened between them yet, so far, however I am cautiously optimistic that I haven't bitten off more than I can chew this time. We're planning on taking this step by step.

 

[Magdlyn]

Feedback:

I read your blog some and understand much of the backstory. What I want to ask is, why did Boho and Jester STOP being FWBs in the first place, and what compells them to want to restart?

I think Jester took their relationship lightly before, whereas Boho was deeply in love and wanted more than he could give. Has he changed? Has she?


I find it a bit odd they are agreeing to you orchestrating what sexual things they can and can't do, when they start. No deep kissing, no PIV. Did you actually tell them hand jobs and fingering is OK, oral is OK, 69 is OK, anal is ok, titty fucking is OK? But no actual PIV. They are adults. Not teenagers trying to preserve their "virginities."

I find this whole thing you have going, your jealousies, your botched threesome, your cybersexing of both together while not "allowing" them to actually fuck each other, a bit off kilter, maybe potentially again disastrous.

What if that cock just kind of accidentally slips in while they are frotting? Will they tell you? Will you make them sit in the naughty chair, ordering them to do so from an entirely different country?

 

[Magdlyn]

More feedback:

This arrangement, of dealing with your extreme jealousy/fear of loss/fear of displacement, lack of compersion, leading to you orchestrating what your hinges may or may not do sexually, and your use of the word, "allow" instead of the obvious word "consent" (used so much here and in our culture at large in light of the #MeToo movement) would only make sense to me if you were a Domme; the "Miss" of your partners, who are your subs, and who may only act or move into deeper sexuality with each other as you "allow" it.

It very much reminds me of BDSM players doing cyber Dom/sub stuff. "Sub, do this or that, and send me a picture." "Yes, Miss." "Sub, you may not wear panties, sub, you must wear this cock restraint, and send me a pic." "Yes, Miss." (*sub gets hard/wet to be so ordered*)

But I don't think you 3 are into BDSM.

 

[Marvelgirl]

Are they actually ok with this? The whole you putting your hard and soft limits on their physical interactions with each other?

It kind of blows my mind that anyone would agree to this.

 

[lunabunny]

Magdyn, thank you for your input. I always appreciate your insightful and challenging questions.

I don't say this as an excuse, however, we three are relatively new to polyamory - both the mindset and the practice of it - having all three been involved in decades-long marriages before finding each other.

And although at one time Boho did briefly have two lovers concurrently, Jester did not know about the other man at the time they were involved, although he has since said he would have been okay with it. I myself have only been poly since becoming involved with Boho less than two year ago (I was with Jester for a year prior to that as a mono couple), and the majority of our interactions have been LD, as you mentioned, although I am planning to move to their country within the next year or so.

Chronologically, in terms of the events that have seen us become a "V", and emotionally, it's been a convoluted journey.

Feedback:

I read your blog some and understand much of the backstory. What I want to ask is, why did Boho and Jester STOP being FWBs in the first place, and what compells them to want to restart?

We three knew each other as part of an online group of friends associated with music and political interests. I was platonic friends with both and had no idea they had a FWB thing, at first. After some time, Jester and I grew closer and fell in love.

Jester ended the sexual side of his relationship with Boho when he and I became involved. This was his choice. Boho had told me at the time that she was willing to "share" him, as long as the arrangement was more or less DADT and she didn't have to know anything about Jester/my interactions. I admit I did NOT want anything other than a mono relationship with him at that stage (in fact, poly wasn't something I really understood or had considered at all!) however I passed her offer/suggestion onto him, but he demurred. Their communication was NOT great at that time, obviously.

Hence, he and I entered a mono LDR and Boho was very hurt. They tried to remain friends, but didn't see each other in person for many months after this.

I think Jester took their relationship lightly before, whereas Boho was deeply in love and wanted more than he could give. Has he changed? Has she?

He has always maintained he wasn't, and isn't, "in love" with Boho, and I believe him. She WAS deeply in love with Jester and HAD believed he was likewise, with her. She can now admit she was fooling herself, and has gotten over that aspect of their relationship. They remain the closest of friends. "Family", pretty much. He appreciates her more these days, I feel, but is still not "in love" and probably won't ever be.

I find it a bit odd they are agreeing to you orchestrating what sexual things they can and can't do, when they start. No deep kissing, no PIV. Did you actually tell them hand jobs and fingering is OK, oral is OK, 69 is OK, anal is ok, titty fucking is OK? But no actual PIV. They are adults. Not teenagers trying to preserve their "virginities."

I understand your concerns. I also hold many of the same concerns (for the emotional wellbeing of them both, as well as for myself), which is WHY we all took a "breather" of many months before attempting anything of this type again.

Yes, I did lay out my wants, needs, boundaries, hard/soft limits in so many words - at their suggestion. Boho had asked me to do so back in May last year, but I wasn't ready to deal with it then, and we three had subsequently put it in the "too hard basket" (these puns, ugh! ) until very recently.

In regards to PIV, I did specify that I don't feel quite ready for them to engage in something that intimate quite yet (though I can see a time it'll happen in the future, for sure), but I also said that almost all of my list was up for negotiation to some extent - for example, if they got to that point, and really wanted to go for it, I'd deal with it as long as they used condoms.

That, I think, is the BIG DEAL for me. I guess I am "fluid bonded" with Jester (I'm still learning all the terms). He and I have a romantic relationship. Boho and I have a romantic relationship. Jester and Boho do NOT have a romantic relationship and have not engaged in PIV for almost three years.

However, those two live in the same country. They are great friends, and have been more than that. I don't feel I should stop them from expressing their closeness in a physically intimate way and giving/taking sexual relief and pleasure from each other, should they want to go there. Mind you, this is all hypothetical so far. Neither of them are champing at the bit to get in the sack, by their own admission. I/we would just rather have any "groundrules" laid out and understood by all concerned BEFORE anything sexual takes place, unlike last time, when we were under-prepared in many senses.

I find this whole thing you have going, your jealousies, your botched threesome, your cybersexing of both together while not "allowing" them to actually fuck each other, a bit off kilter, maybe potentially again disastrous.

What if that cock just kind of accidentally slips in while they are frotting? Will they tell you? Will you make them sit in the naughty chair, ordering them to do so from an entirely different country?

Point taken, so to speak. Yes, I get what you're saying and I've attempted to address this issue further up the page. re: "Accidentally" slipping it in - I actually brought up this exact point with both of them BEFORE I was even involved with Boho - due to the fact that they'd go away on trips together, often sleeping in the same bed or room. I managed to control my insecurities surrounding this aspect of their relationship, while still expressing my fears - however they both assured me there was no chance of either of them getting so carried away they wouldn't be able to restrain themselves. And so far, they've proven true to their words (over the past two years).

More feedback:

This arrangement, of dealing with your extreme jealousy/fear of loss/fear of displacement, lack of compersion, leading to you orchestrating what your hinges may or may not do sexually, and your use of the word, "allow" instead of the obvious word "consent" (used so much here and in our culture at large in light of the #MeToo movement) would only make sense to me if you were a Domme; the "Miss" of your partners, who are your subs, and who may only act or move into deeper sexuality with each other as you "allow" it.

It very much reminds me of BDSM players doing cyber Dom/sub stuff. "Sub, do this or that, and send me a picture." "Yes, Miss." "Sub, you may not wear panties, sub, you must wear this cock restraint, and send me a pic." "Yes, Miss." (*sub gets hard/wet to be so ordered*)

But I don't think you 3 are into BDSM.

Things have actually taken a turn in this direction over the past few months with Boho and I, now that you mention it. We do not participate in BDSM as a full-time scene, but have begun to explore that dynamic.

Jester has always been a little subby as far as he and I are concerned, but we do not use the language Boho and I do.

So to answer your question, part of it DOES involve that dynamic, yes. And both of them say they're eager to "please" me and are only willing to do sexual things with each other and as a group that will, in turn, pleasure me and turn me on. Jester has always maintained that he isn't willing to go to that level of intimacy with Boho unless I also derive something positive from it. These days, Boho feels the same way, and I believe her. In fact, it was SHE who originally suggested I "top" her or take charge of our sexual dynamic. This, like poly, is all new to the three of us.

 

[lunabunny]

Are they actually ok with this? The whole you putting your hard and soft limits on their physical interactions with each other?

It kind of blows my mind that anyone would agree to this.

Yes, they do appear to be more than okay with it. I've asked and double-checked, though so far it's mostly theoretical.

If you read my response to Magdlyn, above - especially the last part about being a "Mistress" and our evolving BDSM dynamic - you may be better able to understand how this situation has come about.

I guess the thing is, they're both more submissive by nature, while I can and do switch. Also, those two are MY partners, but they're not "in" a relationship with each other, per se.

 

[Magdlyn]

Well, then! If you are basically the Mistress of 2 subs, and they agree to follow your RULES, and have certain kinds of sex with your PERMISSION, y'all do whatever the hell you want!

You might have mentioned that in the OP.

Do you seek any advice (having posted in this section where people do seek advice) or do you just want the poly community (especially those who understand BDSM) to wish a you a smooth transition with your subs?

 

[lunabunny]

Well, then! If you are basically the Mistress of 2 subs, and they agree to follow your RULES, and have certain kinds of sex with your PERMISSION, y'all do whatever the hell you want!

You might have mentioned that in the OP.

Do you seek any advice (having posted in this section where people do seek advice) or do you just want the poly community (especially those who understand BDSM) to wish a you a smooth transition with your subs?

I seem to be finding it difficult to explain the exact nature of our situation, probably because it's not that simple. ^ Our whole dynamic is in a "transition phase" I guess you could say.

The sub thing has only been a fairly new development - one neither Boho or I have ever been involved with before. Jester is not technically a part of that, however he does tend to defer more to me in sexual matters, rather than being a forceful/aggressive/rough "masculine" type (again, in inverted commas, as with my previous "allow", because I realise these are stereotypes and not exactly the PC words or terms I'd like to use here.)

Basically, we are just trying these roles on for size, right now, and it seems to suit all concerned. But nothing is set in stone.

As for advice and whatnot... like I said at the very top of my post, I originally wrote this entry for my blog ONLY, but thought I'd share it here to see if more experienced poly forum members had any words of wisdom; whether advice, criticism, food for thoughts, helpful hints, tips etc. Good luck wishes are always welcome though.

I'm sorry if you feel I wasted your time or that of that forum, however.

 

[Tinwen]

Well, then! If you are basically the Mistress of 2 subs, and they agree to follow your RULES, and have certain kinds of sex with your PERMISSION, y'all do whatever the hell you want!

I actually ... disagree. Not that you can't do anything you want within bdsm, but the reasons for the restrictions do matter. This is still done out of insecurity, so I don't think it's much less worrisome or even magically clean just because a bdsm dynamics is involved. This is not framed quite in a 'let's play' way, rather in a 'I'd like to grant you a sexual relationship but I'm quite insecure about it' way, and IMHO should be treated as such.
That having said, I don't view temporary arrangements with restrictions as totally impossible or wrong, and it's true that your partners' subby personalities might make a dynamics based on fulfilling your wishes a bit more workable than it would be otherwise. But it's important that you know that what you're doing when placing the restrictions is not actually play, but consoling insecurities and proceed accordingly - carefully check in with your partners as you've been doing, not let resentment grow, work to with time overcome the insecurities.

 

[Magdlyn]

It's just hard for me to wrap my mind around this whole LDR thing in the first place, I guess. Y'all are middle aged people, Jester is nearly 60. Them agreeing to a roster of sexual activities up to but not including PIV and French kissing just seems so odd to me.

Of course, I'm bi not straight. So I don't hold out PIV intercourse as some kind of sacred holy grail.

I guess Boho is just so hungry for any kind of irl sex she's willing to agree to pretty much anything at this point. And Jester is chill and laid back (probably stoned) so he's all, yeah whatever.

???

 

[lunabunny]

I actually ... disagree. Not that you can't do anything you want within bdsm, but the reasons for the restrictions do matter. This is still done out of insecurity, so I don't think it's much less worrisome or even magically clean just because a bdsm dynamics is involved. This is not framed quite in a 'let's play' way, rather in a 'I'd like to grant you a sexual relationship but I'm quite insecure about it' way, and IMHO should be treated as such.
That having said, I don't view temporary arrangements with restrictions as totally impossible or wrong, and it's true that your partners' subby personalities might make a dynamics based on fulfilling your wishes a bit more workable than it would be otherwise. But it's important that you know that what you're doing when placing the restrictions is not actually play, but consoling insecurities and proceed accordingly - carefully check in with your partners as you've been doing, not let resentment grow, work to with time overcome the insecurities.

Thanks for responding, Tinwen.

Yes, I am not proud of it, but I totally agree that part of my rationale behind placing certain limitations around their two-way "play" (and even any future three-way stuff) springs from insecurities I have only partially worked through.

I'm not pretending otherwise, either here, or with my partners. In fact, as a group, we've discussed my issues surrounding jealousy and insecurity at great length. Jester was always willing to be mono with me, while Boho used to be completely opposed to the idea a while back (feeling that it'd be too difficult to be so closely involved with her former FWB and NOT go there eventually, since we're planning on living together).

I'm NOT typically a "jealous" person, believe it or not. This was never an issue in my 25+ year marriage. However there was a lot of dishonesty and secretiveness (on the parts of both Jester and Boho) during the initial stages of the relationship/s - and also some cheating and abuse in my distant past - that have caused me some trust issues that have resurfaced as I started on this poly journey. I've been in therapy recently, in order to work through all of this.

So, yes, as a V/Triad, we took things back to the beginning and put a halt on any group sexual activity or play between those two after it became clear I wasn't ready for that. It has taken nine months of letting things settle and the hurt abate, before re-engaging in discussions around this topic and very slowly adding some shared sexual banter, imagery and acts (between J and B) back onto the menu of possibilities. They understand why this is so, and also that any restrictions are likely to be a temporary measure. As I (and indeed THEY) become more comfortable and secure, that "menu" is probably going to expand.

 

[lunabunny]

Let me just add that IF Jester and Boho were in love with each other and very eager to re-start the sexual side of their relationship - for its own sake - then I'd probably feel way worse about putting restrictions on them in this regard.

In fact, I probably wouldn't and couldn't. They would then be free to do as they felt they needed to (as I originally said to Jester when he and I first began).

However, I would also be free to bow out of the relationships, if I felt it was too difficult for me to handle emotionally. Entering a non monogamous situation for the very first time, and having that situation being a fully equitable triad would have been way too challenging for me, I know now. I appreciate my partners' patience and empathy more than anything.

 

[Tinwen]

Them agreeing to a roster of sexual activities up to but not including PIV and French kissing just seems so odd to me.

I do understand these particular insecurities pretty well. French kissing is something I'll be only rarely comfortable with even with a long-term partner, PIV is like THE most intimate thing (which doesn't mean it's a holy grail, or the sexual activity I enjoy the most) tied closely with all insecurities around children, diseases and self-image which don't necessarily surface with other activities. I'm likely to take my time to do this with a partner anyway, so agreeing to leaving them out in the beginning doesn't have to be such a big deal.

You do have a point about Boho, though, as confirmed:

Jester was always willing to be mono with me, while Boho used to be completely opposed to the idea a while back (feeling that it'd be too difficult to be so closely involved with her former FWB and NOT go there eventually, since we're planning on living together).

This seems like a very weak point in the dynamics, the point that broke their relationship before. However, I don't think it's yours to sort out, Lunabunny.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi lunabunny,

Knowing a little of your story as I do, it seems to me that you are making excellent and unexpected progress in your past insecurities with Jester and Boho. I don't expect you to be able to cope with everything (e.g. PIV and passionate kissing) right off the bat. I think it's great that you are able to deal with the idea of them having just a little bit more to do with each other. And it bodes well for the future.

I think the three of you have things under control, and are proceeding at a good pace for everyone. I don't necessarily have any advice; just encouragement.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[lunabunny]

It's just hard for me to wrap my mind around this whole LDR thing in the first place, I guess. Y'all are middle aged people, Jester is nearly 60. Them agreeing to a roster of sexual activities up to but not including PIV and French kissing just seems so odd to me.

Of course, I'm bi not straight. So I don't hold out PIV intercourse as some kind of sacred holy grail.

I guess Boho is just so hungry for any kind of irl sex she's willing to agree to pretty much anything at this point. And Jester is chill and laid back (probably stoned) so he's all, yeah whatever.

???

Yes, it's pretty clear you're having difficulty grasping the nature of my relationships, especially the LDR aspect.

While I appreciate your continued feedback, Magdlyn, and accept that long-term LDRs, BDSM("lite" in my case, so far) and relationships involving "rules" may not be your cup of tea, personally, or appeal to many others here, I feel the tone of your last few responses have been needlessly condescending/passive-aggressive and I'm not sure why.

This road has been a difficult one for all concerned, but the three of us are getting to a good/better place, finally.

It might help to explain that the relationship/s came about organically. We "met" online through mutual friends and grew close (as friends) due to common interests BEFORE any romantic or sexual relationships developed between any of us. We didn't meet via a dating website or app (not that there's anything wrong with that)... meaning that none of us were "looking" for a partner, or for love or sex, when we first became friends. Therefore, the LDR aspect is merely an obstacle to overcome, not something we deliberately set ourselves up for.

I suffer from severe anxiety, social phobia and has traits of Asperger's (my son is diagnosed). As an adult, I've never "dated" per se, or had casual relationships/sex of any kind. That's just the way I'm wired. While I am a sexual person (rather than demi sexual) I don't feel comfortable getting intimately involved with anyone I'm not already fairly close to and/or where I don't see a relationship developing. Jester and Boho are similarly inclined though they've both had more sexual experience than I have.

Thus, we have been able to keep the flame alive so far despite the obvious limitations of a LD/online mode of relating.

I've gone into all of this in my blog + various past threads (not that I expect anyone to remember all this), but can't go into every detail each time I post, because it's just too much info for a single post.

Boho's primary love language is touch, however, which is one major reason I am working on being alright with she and Jester re-starting a sexual relationship of some sort (in my absence, and with a view to expanding on this when I move there). Both of them have said they don't "need" that, if I'm not 100% on board with it. But it's precisely because I DON'T wish to limit them that I'm trying to work on myself and my insecurities.

We have ALL agreed to start small though, after a few missteps along the way. Hence the limits. It's a starting point, not an end point.

I don't really classify my orientation, but I'm not "straight", obviously, and don't necessarily see PIV as any "holy grail" of sexual experience. I probably DO see fluid bonding and kissing as more intimate - and this is where those particular limits come from. Boho and Jester are not "in" a relationship of their own, in the normal sense. We have all agreed to keep certain acts between Jester/me and between Boho/me. They seem cool with this at the moment, and right now, and we've all agreed to re-negotiate conditions at a later date.

 

[lunabunny]

I do understand these particular insecurities pretty well. French kissing is something I'll be only rarely comfortable with even with a long-term partner, PIV is like THE most intimate thing (which doesn't mean it's a holy grail, or the sexual activity I enjoy the most) tied closely with all insecurities around children, diseases and self-image which don't necessarily surface with other activities. I'm likely to take my time to do this with a partner anyway, so agreeing to leaving them out in the beginning doesn't have to be such a big deal.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks this way. I didn't think it was SO unusual or crazy to feel this way (especially about French kissing) - in some ways, I feel this IS the most intimate thing two people can engage in physically, but a lot depends on the mindset and the particular people concerned.

As for PIV - for me, part of it is the ACT itself (especially during missionary, a couple is so close in all respects), but it's mostly the act of ejaculation, in particular barrier-less ejaculation/fluid-bonding, that is so very intimate and something I wish to keep just between myself and Jester at this stage. The other aspects (disease, self image, fertility) are all considerations as well. I am a little younger than my partners and haven't yet gone through menopause.

You do have a point about Boho, though, as confirmed:

This seems like a very weak point in the dynamics, the point that broke their relationship before. However, I don't think it's yours to sort out, Lunabunny.

Hence the reason we put a temporary moratorium on anything sexual between us as a group, or between those two directly, for some months after the awkward IRL encounter.

I had to be convinced that Boho had reached a place where she was no longer going to feel hurt or rejected if intimacy between her and Jester did NOT automatically result in him developing feelings for her (unlikely, but not impossible, granted). For her sake, because I love her and do not want to see her hurt, as well as for my own. (It was confusing when I didn't really understand the dynamic between my lovers.)

Hi lunabunny,

Knowing a little of your story as I do, it seems to me that you are making excellent and unexpected progress in your past insecurities with Jester and Boho. I don't expect you to be able to cope with everything (e.g. PIV and passionate kissing) right off the bat. I think it's great that you are able to deal with the idea of them having just a little bit more to do with each other. And it bodes well for the future.

I think the three of you have things under control, and are proceeding at a good pace for everyone. I don't necessarily have any advice; just encouragement.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Thank you for your words of support, Kevin.

I feel so much lighter of heart, "relieved" and positive about our direction, this time around.