Triad 'Third' feeling second best

B

Bluebaron

New member
Does anyone have any advice I can give to our girlfriend?

Some of you may be familiar with my situation and if not can catch up here:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129857

We are all getting on well but a constant issue that does arise it that of Alice feeling second best or rejected in some way. Honey and I have been together for 27 years. As such we get on well and have a great relationship.

We obviously try and make Alice as welcome as possible and recently (post-covid) she has been staying with us for a week then returning home for a week then having 1-1 time with Honey at hers for a few days before starting the whole cycle again. (none of us are working right now)

She always says she doesn't want to overstay her welcome and has a huge fear of rejection. We both try and reassure her she can stay as long as she wants but she constantly refers to the fact that if it came down to it I would choose Honey over her and Honey would chose me over her so she feels second best.

Can anyone offer and advice on how we can make her feel that she is very important in our lives and thats she's not a 'toy' or 'plaything' that we are going to throw away if we are bored.

Thanks, Stay safe everyone,

BB
 
I really don't know what to tell you. I assume you treat Alice well and all. This is basically an "inside" job -- not anything YOU can directly fix. Or at least it sounds like it.

She always says she doesn't want to overstay her welcome and has a huge fear of rejection. We both try and reassure her she can stay as long as she wants but she constantly refers to the fact that if it came down to it I would choose Honey over her and Honey would chose me over her so she feels second best.
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1) She tells herself you would pick Honey over her "if it came down to it." Thinking doom things. What doom is coming? :confused: I know there's pandemic, but what "doom" is she talking about? Is it actually happening?

(Or is the "impending doom" she is experiencing harken back to her identifying as lesbian? And really NOT wanting a triad thing at all but kinda going along with it even if it goes against the grain for her? Only now it's worse because it's been this many months along already? )

2) She is NOT you. She can guess, but in actual fact? The one who makes your choices is YOU. So putting words in your mouth kinda.

3) So thinking doom and putting doom things in your mouth? It makes her feel bad. She's basically kicking her own can. The only one who can do the work to stop that behavior is HER. Does she plan to do anything about that?


Can anyone offer and advice on how we can make her feel that she is very important in our lives and thats she's not a 'toy' or 'plaything' that we are going to throw away if we are bored.
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You cannot MAKE her feel anything. If you could, I am sure you would wave the magic wand and MAKE her feel happy. It's hard to see a partner suffering.
I could be wrong. But to me sounds like she's living with the doom radio station on all the time in her head. And nobody can change the channel or turn it off but her.

You COULD try to contribute to her well being.

You could avoid talking in couple "we." Take the time to say "Me and Honey" like two individuals. You each could tell her "You are not a toy or plaything. I am not going to throw you away if I get bored."

You could reassure her she is welcome at your home.

You could ask her what she needs to feel safe here -- stuff from you, stuff from Honey, stuff from herself.

You could ask her how much time this triad has to clock before she's willing to put that doom baggage down and allow herself to feel safe her and not always on the lookout for getting dumped/rejected.

You could encourage her to seek help/work on her doom thinking. Or at least get a general check up if this is happening a lot lately. With pandemic and none of you working -- depression can creep in for people. The whole quarantine thing is stressy for many.

Galagirl
 
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Hi BB,

I think you need to explain to Alice that she needs to stop thinking of herself as a toy or plaything, and that she needs to stop thinking that the two of you would throw her away if you got bored. To that end, you might want to suggest to Alice that she set up an appointment with a therapist. This thinking that she's doing, when she puts herself down like that, is damaging to her mental health. She needs to get whatever help she needs, to stop doing that.

"Alice, you are not a toy." That's what you need to say to her.
I hope the three of you can work things out.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Is she wrong that you and Honey would choose each other over her? I mean, you still refer to "We" and "Her" as if you and Honey are a couple and she is an outsider. You even referred to her as "Third".

I'm not saying you don't have the best of intentions. I'm not even saying you are completely conscious of it. The reality is you and Honey haven't completely untangled from each other so you are still a couple and Alice is your +1. Not a triad yet, but these things do take time. In the meantime, it is understandable that she feels vulnerable. It is important that you see her feelings as valid and not be dismissive of them.

In your other thread you said Honey feels/acts like Alice is a guest in your home. I think your right that you all should act more like what you are, which is three lovers who are hanging out. It's true that people have their own feelings, but people's actions can make someone feel a certain way. So when you two act like a couple she is going to pick up on that. If she has self esteem issues that will amplify it.

The best you can do is be kind and reassuring...and work towards becoming a real triad*.



*Unless your intention is to have some hierarchy. Then you need to lay that out for her honestly and let her decide if she wants to go along with that.
 
I agree with Vinsanity.

Some of my friends are still "guests" over here when they come over for parties and stuff. Asking where the bathroom is, is it ok to have a drink, etc.

My really close friends? They just get up and get their own drinks in the fridge and help fold the laundry couch stuff. Tell any children doing shenanigans off and just start washing dishes, etc and lend a hand unasked. Like "Here, let me help you while we visit and THEN maybe we have free time to do something fun like a board game too!"

So if Honey and Alice are X months in "working towards triad" and it's still kinda "super guest-y" over there rather than "mi casa es su casa" that could be something to work on. My friends do not keep toothbrushes here. I would imagine a lover would.

Galagirl
 
Thanks again for some good advice and suggestions.

I did realise when I was typing it out that I was referring to Alice as a 'third' but couldn't think of another way of expressing it! I am conscious around her to use 'We' as in all three of us and never 'We' as in Honey and me.
If we have a minor disagreement I never take sides and always see both of their points of view.

You are right when you suggest it is her issue and she has acknowledged this, which I guess is a good start. We've all worked really hard at this and I guess we wouldn't if deep down we wanted it to work.

Alice does helps out around the house. We even got her painting my eldest daughter bedroom last week! oh and she's had her toothbrush here, pretty much since day one!

BB
 
I did realise when I was typing it out that I was referring to Alice as a 'third' but couldn't think of another way of expressing it!
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Partner. Non-nesting partner. Girlfriend. Could ask Alice herself what she likes best.

Alice does helps out around the house. We even got her painting my eldest daughter bedroom last week! oh and she's had her toothbrush here, pretty much since day one!
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Sounds like you (and maybe Honey) are doing the stuff you can do form your end. Welcoming Alice as a contributing adult member of the family. (vs a guest-y kinda of guest.)

So... what stuff does Alice need from ALICE? Stuff to STOP doing?

I would imagine not kicking her own bucket could be one of those things?:confused:

Stuff to START doing? I would guess noticing when she's doing doom thinking inside her head?

Could ask her to see if she can articulate what she needs from each person in the triad to help her. Behaviors to stop, behaviors to start.

Galagirl
 
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Bluebaron said:
she constantly refers to the fact that if it came down to it I would choose Honey over her and Honey would chose me over her
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If it's true, you could as well agree. You could say "That is true. If there was irreconsilable incompatibility between the two of you, as of date, I would choose her. We have a history. But I'm doing my very best every day not to have to choose. Please help me with that by building the strongest relationship we possibly can, and maybe oneday the question of choosing won't be on the table at all."
 
Tbh I don't think the problem here is that Alice is feeling like she is treated "second best" or that you or her or Honey or anyone is not trying enough.

The truth is that you, Alice and Honey are trying to fit a lesbian woman into a triad with with a straight man, where everyone is struggeling to squeez everyone into a pre-described roles that simply just don't fit reality.


The way you and Honey have pre-formulated "requirements" for the relationship (Alice needs to sleep with everyone, threesomes need to happen, you are not allowed to date outside of the triad, everything should be equal, Alice can only date Honey if she also dates you) seems to me exactly like you are treating Alice like an object/plaything.
She is supposed to fit herself into a pre-existing relationship without imbalancing it or rocking the boat, to an extend where you are coercing her into sleeping with you by the condition of not exploding her relationship with honey.

In your other threat you write:
" She [Alice] also said that she [as a lesbian woman] was finding the sex with me (a man) hard and that she probably couldn't do it for much longer. As such she asked me to basically carry on as before with no sex.
Over a few days I took this onboard and realised that I was being asked to basically be my wife's girlfriends's best mate. I felt like I had been 'friend-zoned' by her when I want to be on a girlfriend level.
I decided that it would probably be best if I pulled out altogether as I felt that being with them and watching her be so close to Honey without being a part of it was too much.
They were both very upset particularly Honey who said that this was supposed to be about us as a three and now I was pulling out she felt bad etc etc. This then snowballed to effect her and Alice's relationship as she could see how upset Honey was.
So after a week or so Alice came back to me and asked if I could forget it all and go back to how we were before."

Can you in all honesty not see that the reason Alice is sleeping with you is so that Honey stays happy?
Honey is playing into a already existing a "queen-bee" dynamic where everything is about her and she gets to enjoy all of the merrits of beeing in a poly relationship (beeing able to form loving relationships with multiple people) without having to put in any of the work (overcoming jealousy and allowing your partner to do the same). For her this is perfect - she has a lesbian girlfriend and a cis male boyfriend, who love her and cannot seriously fall for each other due to a difference in sexual preferance. At the same time by forbidding you to seek another partner she eliminates any chance of having to experience jealouy/insecurity/fear of loss.

I don't have any advise asid from opening the triad, which would mean letting Alice and Honey have their relationship develop without you beeing involved in every step, establishing a friendship with Alice, working on your relationship with Honey and maybe finding yourself a partner of your own (preferably a partner who's sexual orientation isn't clashing with your gender).
Honey needs to stop forcing you onto Alice and Alice onto you in order to avoid her own emotional laboring.

I'm honestly getting a very creepy "sexual coersion" vibe from all the posts on your other threat.
 
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Kindalosthere said:
" She [Alice] also said that she [as a lesbian woman] was finding the sex with me (a man) hard and that she probably couldn't do it for much longer. As such she asked me to basically carry on as before with no sex."
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KLT illuminates the issue: Why are you pushing a sexual relationship with a lesbian who doesn't want to have sex with you? All kinds of weird and yucky blech is going to ooze out of this foundational reality. Why doesn't your wife have a GF and you find a more suitable lover? Why push a triad that is based on disgust of sex with a man?
 
FallenAngelina said:
KLT illuminates the issue: Why are you pushing a sexual relationship with a lesbian who doesn't want to have sex with you? All kinds of weird and yucky blech is going to ooze out of this foundational reality. Why doesn't your wife have a GF and you find a more suitable lover? Why push a triad that is based on disgust of sex with a man?
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He tried to remove himself from the relationship, and Honey let her disappointment negatively impact her relationship with Alice so Alice requested he join in again. Despite the fact that Alice doesn't actually WANT a relationship with a man, she's pushing for it so she can stay with Honey.

The whole thing is a mess. Honey is being a bad hinge by not keeping boundaries between relationships. Even in a triad, the individual dyads are important. Alice is being toxic by insisting on a relationship she's not actually excited about because of her orientation. OP is a problem by not sticking to his boundary of not involving himself sexually with someone not actually attracted to him.

She feels less than because she is. If not in theory then in reality. It's your home. Your wife. Your projects. Etc. You can include her all you want, but when the reality is that if Honey isn't happy with you then honey can't be happy with Alice, then the problem is going to remain. Alice wants complete equality and will feel insecure until she gets it - equal status as a partner, equal impact in every day life, equal priorityin life decisions. Maybe even after if she's not actually poly and wants monogamy deep down.
 
BB, I thought of a couple more things you could say to Alice. They might help, maybe. First, ask Alice if she knows that she's worthy of being loved. Maybe she doesn't feel that, deep down inside, and it makes her imagine how you and Honey are going to reject her (because she's not good enough to be with you). She may need a better self-image, before she can feel secure in this relationship.

The other thing I thought of is about what Alice was saying, about, that if you had to choose, you would choose Honey (and discard Alice), and if Honey had to choose, she would choose you (and discard Alice). When Alice talks about this hypothetical, you could say, "But that would never happen, because I would always choose both you and Honey, in every situation (and Honey would always choose both you and me)."

Remember, in polyamory, we don't have to choose. We can always choose both partners, both at once. That's the whole point of polyamory. Alice just needs to adjust her perspective, to realize that you and Honey would never put her into second place. Tell her, "You are a good person. You deserve to be loved. You are loved. You deserve to be in first place. You are in first place, we would always choose you."
 
FallenAngelina said:
KLT illuminates the issue: Why are you pushing a sexual relationship with a lesbian who doesn't want to have sex with you? All kinds of weird and yucky blech is going to ooze out of this foundational reality. Why doesn't your wife have a GF and you find a more suitable lover? Why push a triad that is based on disgust of sex with a man?
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I don't think it was ever a situation of Alice not wanting to have a sexual relationship with me. She's always made it clear that she enjoys sex with a man, (which has always made me question her true sexuality), She has however said she doesn't 'desire' it all the time.

Its this sort of language that has confused both me and honey on the past. As I said before we are getting on so much better. Alice and I have sex together (without honey), often instigated by her.

She's had a lot of rejection in her life both from men and women. Our relationship started about two months after she was dumped by her girlfriend of 3 years. The said girlfriend, who she stills lives with, started a new relationship immediately and seems very happy. I think it grates on Alice that she's the one that was dumped and she sees her ex being really happy on a monogamous relationship.

She has said before that its hard for her to be with someone who loves someone else more/equally, she is used to being loved 100% by one person. She's finding it hard to 'share'. Particularly as Honey and I get much more time together, although we've said Alice can stay longer she always wants to leave before we 'get fed up with her', something we've never said or even implied.

I think Kevin is right when he said Alice needs to adjust her perspective and that's something i'm attempting to help her with.

I know reading back on my threads especially in the early part of this relationship he can seem that Alice and I are forcing something, and perhaps in the beginning we were, however lately our relationship is really is good, I wouldn't call it love, but a very deep friendship with deep caring and understanding each others needs. Her relationship with Honey is more sexual and loving but can be fiery and emotional and I seem to be the one that gels it altogether if that makes sense?

BB
 
It sounds like Alice has a disheartening history with partners in the past, she has been rejected a lot in her life, and so naturally she expects to be rejected by you too. You need to explain to her that you are not like those people who rejected her in the past, that you love her and will continue to love her, that she is a good person and she deserves to be loved. That idea may come to be easier for her to accept, once she's been with you for a while, and sees that you're not rejecting her.
 
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