Turnabout

Woah, this is getting into dangerous territory here. Does Sundance know he is wrecking things so spectacularly?

I think you need to talk to him ASAP and let him know that his *current* actions are eroding your trust in him and your respect for him. Tell him you didn't think he was the kind of guy who would lead a woman on. Tell him that if he behaves without integrity like this, that it's affecting how you see him as a person. Does he like the person he's become?

Is he sabotaging his marriage like this on purpose? If not, he should know that it's what he's doing NOW.

Sure, meeting the girl and being friends with her and all that might help. But you can't (and shouldn't) have a relationship with her for him. He has to do that.
 
I am sorry to be coming into this thread late. So many interesting and disturbing things have been discussed, so much caring and support, already, that my words seem superfluous to myself. But that doesn't stop me from putting my $.02 in anyway! :p

I concur with many things already said and suggested, but will comment on areas that haven't been delved into too much. Carma, you said that before meeting you, Sundance was a Casanova, going from one woman to the next in shallow relationships. I take that to mean, he enjoyed fucking these women, liked their bodies, attention and fawning, so would say most anything to get them to fuck him, including lies about how much he cared about them.

(A common male trait, of course.)

Now, because of certain guilt you have about loving Butch, you encouraged Sun to try and meet other women, hoping he'd find a love match like you enjoy with Butch, to, as you said, take the pressure off of you.

So, Sun has found "Barbie." BTW, using that name for her is kind of odd... sure, she may be conventionally beautiful, blonde perhaps, but calling her by a doll's name does tend to make her seem more like a toy, and less like a full human being. You say you want her to be a full person for Sun, but yet it seems in your mind, she is, or should be, just a toy, a living doll.

Now, because of Sun's past life as a Casanova, you suspect he is treating Barbie the way he treated those women he fucked in the past~~ telling them sweet nothings to get in their pants. However, since he's had 12 years of a real relationship with you, there might be a conflict in his mind. Does he mean the loving things he says to Barbie, or not? The hearts on the GPS could be a sweet nothing. But letting her spy into your windows, and going to meet her family, imply deeper, if confused feelings.

I suspect he does love her and has told her so... and lied to you that he doesn't love her, and hasn't told her. He's used to placating the women in his life, telling them what he thinks they want to hear.

So, that is my view on this aspect of how Sun is "handling" you and his gf.
 
2nd post from me, on another topic. Leaving Barbie out of the equation for a minute, let's look at your V, you, Sun and Butch. I admit I previously had had the impression you 3 were all good. You loved both men, the guys love each other as friends, one big happy family.

Now, in reading this thread, I see how wrong I was! I had no idea how you limited your interaction with Butch to spare Sun's feelings. Not saying you love each other. Only seeing him a couple hours a week. Him not wanting to accept gifts from you. Avoidance of terms of endearment for his penis... etc.

On this thread, you have compared both you and Butch to "machines." Your avoidance of fully immersing yourselves in NRE to placate Sun's feelings is disturbing to me. It's noble, but ultimately, untruthful, and I see it as harming the entire V in an attempt to help it.

Now, Sun is not doing this. He is fully immersed in his NRE, texting her a lot, cleaning the house so she wouldnt be offended by its mess when she peeked in, accepting her gifts, meeting her family, telling her how he misses her when they are apart (and he is with you!), etc.

I don't blame any of the 4 of you for all the stumbles and mistakes you are all making... after all, you are all new to poly, and the jealousy, and the overwhelming NRE. Also there is the issue of time management~~ you've got kids and are of course, distracted by their needs. Also, Sun has a hella long commute to and from work, it eats up so much time in his day.

I truly do think it's ultimatum time for you and Sun. It seems you and he have a long history of "little white lies" and this has got to stop. His lies are NOT little. Lying to Barbie about the reality of his relationship with you is HUGE. White, meaning pure or well-meaning, perhaps. But definitely not little.

Barbie obviously has deep love for what Sun lets her see of him (note my choice of words... he isn't telling her who he really is). Sun is in love with you, his wife, and attempting to return to his Casanova persona with Barbie out of an old habit. But it should be obvious to both of you, that if you 2 want to be a poly couple, he needs to come clean to her about his reality.

If Sun is NOT poly, and wants a casual fling with someone else, she should be aware of that, and willing to understand she's low on the totem pole, and will never be more than a secondary. There is nothing wrong with casual sex/relationships, but both parties should be in agreement that is all it is. I don't get the impression Barbie is just a sex toy to Sun. She seems to be something more. He may not be sure himself. Both of you need to step up to the plate, come clean about the depths of your feelings for both of your OSOs. Be honest with yourselves, with each other, and with Butch and Barbie.

Yes, it's hard. It's like jumping off a cliff. Saying those honest things is damn scary. There is a fear of rejection. A fear of losing each other. It takes trust to know how important you are to Sun, and that he won't dump you for Barbie just because you are 100% authentic to him about your love for Butch. If you admit it, it might give him a feeling of safety to admit the depth of his feelings for Barbie, admit it to himself, and to you, and then trust he has the go ahead to tell her the depth of his feelings for you. About his deep love for you, and his commitment to you, for you, and stop letting her think you and he are only together for the kids.

Everyone needs to get on the same page. Open and honest and even relentless communication is needed here, or you will continue to flounder in a land of shadows, suspicions, and fear.
 
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Just wrote a long post and was logged off before I could send it :( ARGH! Will post tomorrow. Mags, your input helped immensely.
 
Make sure you click the "remember me" box when you log on, or you'll get timed out when composing a long post.
 
I didn't think of her nickname as a derogatory, but now I see what you're saying, Mag, and I agree maybe it was subconscious. I wanted her to be either a plaything, or a sister wife. She has become something I never anticipated!!! I should have seen this coming, I guess. I did not consider Sundance's history!!! He's never operated from an honesty perspective with women -- UNTIL he met and married me. He was extremely relieved to put those days behind him forever. He was truly, genuinely in love with me. I believe I was really his first true love.

Then I shattered him, by having an affair. Instead of focusing on my own family and my own problems, I got sucked into the problems of my neighbors. It was a bizarre mix of compassion, loneliness, and EGO that led me to begin an affair with Butch. I was in denial about the second two -- I only identified the compassion. Which helped me to justify it.

I can love more than one person at a time. But I don't think I can juggle this lifestyle any longer. Talk about "turnabout."
 
Ended it with Butch this morning. I'm ok.
 
Glad to hear you're ok.
 
I'm sorry you ended things with Butch and I'm glad that you are ok.

Yet I can't help but think you got played by Sundance, manipulated into ending things with Butch.

I understand you must put your marriage first - I totally get that. But the manner in which you got from there to here, stinks to high heaven, at least to my nose.

I would really, really like to be wrong about this.

Best of luck to you, Carma.
 
opalescent said:
Yet I can't help but think you got played by Sundance, manipulated into ending things with Butch.

I understand you must put your marriage first - I totally get that. But the manner in which you got from there to here, stinks to high heaven, at least to my nose.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I am kinda sorry you gave up, intimidated by Sun's anger and refusal to come clean with Barbie. I hope you and he can get some therapy around the anger/intimidation issues, and go on from there.
 
Magdlyn said:
Yeah, I am kinda sorry you gave up, intimidated by Sun's anger and refusal to come clean with Barbie. I hope you and he can get some therapy around the anger/intimidation issues, and go on from there.
Click to expand...

Ditto. And my heart goes out to Butch, who seems to have had very little control over this.
 
He SAYS he's ending it with Barbie. I can't say I believe he really will. I am so suspicious right now I'm like totally paranoid. But so much of what has happened has logically made me that way. I'm not totally stupid or naive! He has told so many "little white lies" which HE feels were totally justified, that I can't imagine why he wouldn't tell more.

Sundance never really stopped to question his own motives, but now he will have no choice. It will now show whether he really thinks nothing of her, or if she means something to him, after all. Now, his relationship with her stands on its own. I can't predict what will happen, largely because of the lies he has told. I don't really know what she's been told, all along, nor now. I have a feeling that some of it will come out! But who knows?

Opal, I believe I got played, too. :( But, I started the game. I know that. I had to end it, on my part, or remain the hypocrite I was realizing myself to be. (Got called out as such, too, here on the forum. Spade.) Also, the "game" ended up painful, stressful, and dangerous. Kinda like war games, maybe: "The only way to win is not to play."

Sundance was not capable of sustaining the level of honesty it takes to make this work. I don't fault him for that, I feel sad for him and I wonder if he can get better. He is not secure enough in himself. He has a lot of work to do if he is going to be truly happy. Maybe I can help him by being more focused on our marriage.

It was time to end things with Butch. For many reasons, it was time. I have had to take a REALLY hard look at my relationship with him, and think, "Is it really worth all of this grief? Is it really worth losing my husband and my home and my family? Would Butch want to be a part of all that loss? Would Butch be perfectly ok without me in his life?" I know I will always love him. But I will make different choices when it comes to acting on or expressing that love. Sometimes love is holding on, and sometimes letting go.

Lots of deep soul searching going on inside of me right now.
 
Carma,

I don't share this to try to get you to change your mind about Butch -- I understand your decision. Rather, I was thinking that if Sundance is ever open to understanding why his suggestion that he would leave Barbie if you left Butch just wasn't really cool in the first place, this new essay from the xeromag.com guy might help:

http://www.morethantwo.com/polyfairness.html
 
annabelmore,

I think you have to look at the entire history of this ...an then judge fair or unfair ....
I clicked on the link read a little

To briefly summarize... she had an affair for years ....got caught ...persuaded Sundance to try to give poly a go ....for the last year or so she has been openly see Butch ....Sundances has been dealing ...recently she encourages him to find his own lover ....he does.... She has trouble dealing with ...new penis nickname,..meeting the parents, frequent unscheduled sexapades, gifts, etc.etc. ( oh ya ...he told some stories to the new woman and handled things poorly) I'm guessing that it could have been him finding a sympathetic ear ...then just snowballed....4-5yrs of bottled up feelings and stories just dying to get out. ....Mix in some NRE and sex ....and ....

During the block of time when Sundance was without a second relationship she spoke of him in very glowing terms ....a love him for his sacrifice....he tries so hard what a great partner I have .......I'm the happiest woman in the world ... livin the dream etc,etc

So if Sundance reads the article he ...could say ...so you think my suggestion ....To relieve your current and brief (from duration stay point) pain is unfair .....lifes not fair got a great article for you to read ....Couldn't he take said article and use it in the same manner?

And shouldn't there be some sort of fundamental fairness? So are you suggesting she be the only one to have an outside relationship because she cant handle the fallout and he can't deal honestly with the other partner...so life's not fair you'll have to get rid of Barbie ...got to run.... meeting Butch in an hour....how do I look....should I ditch the bra ?

I didn't read the entire article because I didn't see the direct tie in for Sundance ...and thought this is a two edged sword....

Carma,
...please correct anything in the history that I misstated or got wrong.

I hope you and Sundance can heal and provide a stable platform for your kids what ever that dynamic looks like ....perhaps shift the focus to the family ...take a break from the poly postmortem.
 
Dh, I hear you that things were messed up on both sides at various times in the relationship. And I have read her whole story. Past wrongs don't make future wrongs ok. Nothing that's happened previously makes it ok for Carma to get manipulated into a position where her choices are 1) divorce, 2) stay in a situation where lies are the rule of the day with the myriad terrifying implications of that, or 3) leave her boyfriend even though her connection to him was still strong and he was being a great metamour to her husband.

The part of the article that I found most relevant did happen to be at the end. It's sort of the reverse of Carma's situation, but I think it's relevant for the lesson at the end. I'll paste it here.

***

Another real-world example, which I've used before: Many years ago I knew a married couple that was exploring polyamory. The wife had a girlfriend for many years, but when he finally found a girlfriend, the wife became overwhelmingly, irrationally jealous. After dealing with this jealousy in the typical fashion for a while (you know, passive-aggresive acting out, that sort of thing), she finally went to him and told him, look, I want you to dump your girlfriend. I'll dump my other partner too, so it'll be fair.

Three broken hearts for the price of one is a peculiar definition of the word "fair" in my book; which illustrates yet another important point:

Symmetry is not the same thing as fairness.

Personally, the kind of fairness that really counts is the kind that starts with compassion.
 
How is this manipulation. He saying I'm bothered by you seeing butch and your going crazy by my seeing barbie .....why don't we remove each others discomfort. It wasn't a mandate or ultimatum ....just an idea. ....perhaps an unworkable one....

Previous wrongs could explain why certain things have happened a why someone may feel less willing to negotiate.....thinking they've been doing all the bending for the last 5 yrs. fair or not.

Where's the compassion for sun dance....it just nre ....let the nre settle down then .....first time out he gets a mulligan .....that kind stuff...

The situation from the article is similar but in this situation they are both struggling with the others romantic outsourcing.
 
dingedheart said:
How is this manipulation....

Previous wrongs could explain why certain things have happened a why someone may feel less willing to negotiate.....thinking they've been doing all the bending for the last 5 yrs. fair or not.

Where's the compassion for sun dance....it just nre ....let the nre settle down then .....first time out he gets a mulligan .....that kind stuff...
Click to expand...

Good luck getting that thought process out, DH. Many seem to want to live in the moment, and forget that one thing truly leads to another.

The flip side of that is to remember,..that this is definitely a sick-cycle ...She cheated on Sundance for a long time,....what brought her to the cheating ? Feelings of unworthiness, etc ? His passive-aggressive attitude, her fear ?

Who knows where it starts, but it certainly doesn`t end unless people take responsibility for themselves.

As for compassion,..I hear ya. There definitely seems to be a slant in advice as of late. What is good for the goose, is not so, for the gander.

Your spouse is doing things wrong??? Leave-em, ditch-em, kick them to the curb !!! But hey, if you dump your secondary or newest lover, we`ll tell you, that you treated them as disposable !

Happy Friday everyone :p
 
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