SHIT!!! The stuff I miss when I'm out of circulation...
I prepared the following in my "hole in the wall" and although some of it may no longer be pertinent, I think that most of it still is. (The song lyric CERTAINLY is. I've just Googled it and can only find videos of a few other songs with the same title, as well as a Dutch translation cover version of this one. BUY THE CD! - titled "Mischief".) The sex between you and SK may be over (or may not - who knows what psychogames this guy will get up to?) but you still have to relate to each other. Even if you DO divorce, you'll have to deal with each other, if only because of the children. And maybe (???) what I've written will help you realise that the no-sex is no-big-loss?
(And maybe Butch will allow you, finally, to get a little closer?)
Carma, here I am back at home, having copied and pasted everything on this thread up to my last comment (last Sunday), and brought it all back to my mountain hide-out to review. And here comes a lorry-load of tough love for you:
You’ve got quite a few of whom I would consider serious heavy-weights (members whose opinion I think is ALWAYS worth paying attention to [e.g. AnnabelMore, Magdlyn, TruckerPete, to name but 3]) giving you eminently sensible feedback and advice. You write that you “appreciate it, Guys!”... but are you doing anything positive with it???
Well, yes you are. You’ve called Barbie. You’ve talked to Sundance. You’ve asked him to read this thread. But are you doing enough?
I’ve never been a fan of fishing, but the analogy of fishing will not get out of my mind. Sundance has got you on a line with his hook in you, is playing you, you are floundering, flopping about, drowning in an atmosphere that isn’t yours (as fish drown in air).
You call him Sundance, and that’s his user-name here, but the character in the film’s full title was The Sundance Kid, and since your husband seems to me to be acting like a kid, I’m going to go back to calling him SK. I wish I could like this guy, but he’s acting in ways that are hurting somebody that I care about – if only electronically [I mean my caring electronically, not his hurting you electronically].
And you are WALLOWING in the situation: blaming yourself, kicking yourself, believing that you deserve the spoilt-brat behaviour that SK is dishing out to you... and begging for more. WHY do you ask to read his texting commucations with Barbie? So that you can suffer even more?
I think that something clicked for me when I read that you are an ex(?)-Catholic. You might have given up the belief, but you haven’t given up the behaviour (wallowing in guilt and self-punishment, sacrificing, making-do with less [while the Pope wallows in luxury]). I live in Spain and have seen the occasional centuries-old procession of “Penitents” (they dress in sheets and tall cones that cover their heads: the very costume that the KKK copied from them) and carry whips to flagellate themselves with. There are others who go bare from the waist up, so that the whip will do a better job, and the blood runs.
Once you came clean with SK about your relationship with Butch, the 2 – actually: the 3 – of you came up with some ground rules that you, Carma, seem to be obeying [no sentimentality between you and Butch, fleeing from NRE, no gifts, your informing SK before and after every tryst with Butch], but which SK, now that he’s got his own “bit on the side” seems to be riding roughshod over. You wrote:
What I loved about poly is its requirement for absolute honesty. I mean, it just can't work without it. Sundance is not comfortable or secure enough to operate that way.
I’m sorry, Carma, but I’ve come to the conclusion that what you’ve got ISN’T polyamory. And hasn’t ever been completely polyamory.
Of course – as I’ve written before – this conclusion comes out of my own particular definition of polyamory. For me, polyamory means allowing the Significant Other to love whom and HOW they will. I get the very strong impression that SK never gave you permission to love Butch freely. It seems that Butch didn’t give you this permission either:
I fell in love with Butch. [...] Butch is definitely on our team, and has never acted otherwise. He discourages any little acts of sentimentality on my part. He would never accept a little gift from me. We do not say I love you and we do not exchange gifts. We do not call or text each other often, we keep everything in moderation, lest we get lost in NRE and mess everything all up! [...]I haven't seen Butch in over a week, and I am fighting the urge to call him. I don't want him to be dragged into this weirdness. He did talk me through the family dinner thing, though, and it helped immensely. I just don't want to need him.
[...] It's kind of like [SK’s] relationship with [Barbie] is a punishment to me. For what? For loving Butch. And it is very sad to be punished for loving someone. [...] Am I regretful that Butch and I don't interact with the same affection? Yes. And no. The romantic girly in me wants it, yes. [...] Butch is also very choosy about the words that come out of his mouth. He processes things first. He thinks everything through. At times this is great, but at other times I wish he'd just blurt something out in the heat of passion or an emotional surge! He is reserved -- more so than I am, or Sundance either. I have to work to understand this, and not take it personally.
Goodness knows (as do you, Carma) that I could quote many other comments on the reserve that Butch practices... and imposes on you. But that list will suffice to make my point.
The point being (as I read it) that you’d like to pull out all the stops and love these 2 men, and that both of them have been pulling on the brake of your fully expressing your love for Butch. As I’ve written, not REAL polyamory (as I see it).
Back to that other point: SK would have suffered if you had been as free with your love towards Butch as you would have liked. And you respected his feelings and curbed your feelings. And all the signs point towards the conclusion that SK isn’t curbing his feelings (which in other circumstances I would applaud) and doesn’t respect your feelings (BOO! BOO!), in fact at times actually appears to be trying to wound you.
And you – good Catholic as you [in certain aspects] remain – take the whip out of his hands and flagellate yourself.
You and SK agreed on certain rules re: polyamory. I don’t agree with all of these rules, but that’s besides the point. Whether the rules were originally insisted on by SK or offered to him by you to spare him suffering is of secondary importance. Of primary importance is that you both agreed on them, that you have bent over backwards to hold yourself to them, and that SK ignores them. And that DEFINITELY isn’t polyamory.
Members of this board have suggested that you give SK an ultimatum. Others don’t like that idea. But by allowing him to continue with his lack of concern for your emotional needs - and allowing yourself to flagellate YOURSELF for everything that has gone wrong – the situation isn’t going to improve. Have you ever heard the song “
We’re Not Over Yet” by Clive Gregson (performed by him and Christine Collister)?
“The way you never keep to your side of a bargain;
The way you always think of no one but yourself;
And when you break all of your promises or turn them into threats;
Then I know... we’re not over yet.
The way you play this game holding all the aces;
The way you change the rules so you can always win;
[...]
Then I know... we’re not over yet.
Then I know... we’re not over yet.”
Penultimate point: it’s an open secret that most people in psychoanalysis never “get well”. They talk in circles about their problems. And the talking seems to act as a balm, a safety valve. So they don’t blow... and they don’t break out of those circles.
And to finish, I repeat your quote:
What I loved about poly is its requirement for absolute honesty. I mean, it just can't work without it.
Be honest with – and to – yourself, Carma. You DO deserve better. You DO deserve to break out of the circle.
