Turnabout

I wish Sundance would have come here to post so you could get a better perspective. Now I feel by exposing him I have betrayed him and if he won't defend himself, that makes me the monster. When I'm upset about things, naturally I'm not mentioning much of the good things he does, right?

Well, he is NOT defenseless -- he chooses not to participate here. Which makes me really disappointed. It also makes me think -- he is much more interested in his new love affair with Barbie than in preserving our marriage. Even though he says the exact opposite!

You'd think he'd at least be interested in what I have to say here.

I think he knows, he can manipulate me but he can't manipulate all of you! HA! I mean, facts are facts. He can't look deeply into any of your eyes or give you that cute smile to win you over. Surprisingly, though, he IS pretty good with words. I am actually pretty shocked he hasn't come here to write some damn convincing arguments for himself! But again -- I think he has other fish he is frying. Another fish, named "Barbie."

I believe our relationship had gotten abusive, no doubt. Of course, HE wouldn't think so. He thinks if he doesn't hit me, he's never hurt me.

"You teach people how to treat you." "It takes two to tango." I have no choice but to look at my part in the abuse. Did I play the victim? Was I passive-aggressive? Was I a doormat? Did I tolerate unacceptable behavior, then try and turn it around suddenly and expect his behavior to change on a dime? My behavior was not healthy, either. I think I have taken some good steps towards empowering myself. I have made the roommate decision, for one. And I'm trying to focus on being a better mom to my kids, instead of obsessing over what he's doing and what he's telling me all the time.

I have to admit, though, that I am grieving. I have had some very intense moments of longing for him, painful thoughts of the love we once had. I know sometimes you tend to grieve what you THOUGHT you had, whether it was "real" or not. You grieve the dream you once had. I miss the romantic side of him. I miss our friendship -- that is one thing I am hoping may return. But I am sad to think that the trust was so destroyed, we will probably never be lovers or real husband and wife again. There is a lot of pain in losing that, even when it turned into something unhealthy. I am sad to think that Barbie may turn him into the man I wished he would be -- then she will be the one having him. But that is selfish. If she can help him heal, help him be healthier, help him to be a better man, how can I begrudge either of them that? I will fight the bitterness. It's not worth it. I want what's best for him, even if it isn't me. And even if that hurts like hell. :(
 
Carma said:
I wish Sundance would have come here to post so you could get a better perspective. Now I feel by exposing him I have betrayed him and if he won't defend himself, that makes me the monster.
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Monster? Jeez, please take it easier on yourself.

When I'm upset about things, naturally I'm not mentioning much of the good things he does, right?
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The bad outweighs the good, at this point.

Well, he is NOT defenseless -- he chooses not to participate here. Which makes me really disappointed. It also makes me think -- he is much more interested in his new love affair with Barbie than in preserving our marriage. Even though he says the exact opposite!
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Yes, he's lying, again.


I think he knows, he can manipulate me but he can't manipulate all of you! HA! I mean, facts are facts. He can't look deeply into any of your eyes or give you that cute smile to win you over.
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Yup.

"You teach people how to treat you." ...I think I have taken some good steps towards empowering myself. I have made the roommate decision, for one. And I'm trying to focus on being a better mom to my kids, instead of obsessing over what he's doing and what he's telling me all the time.
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Excellent!
I have to admit, though, that I am grieving... I know sometimes you tend to grieve what you THOUGHT you had, whether it was "real" or not. You grieve the dream you once had. ...we will probably never be lovers or real husband and wife again. There is a lot of pain in losing that, even when it turned into something unhealthy.
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Yes, it hurts like hell. But that is life, and marriage. People change and grow. The facades also fall off, the scales fall from your eyes, you see him as he really is, not as the macho don juan charmer he pretends to be, him with his perfect hair and abs! Bleh. I'd rather have an authentic trustworthy man with a bit of a potbelly and a bald head.

I am sad to think that Barbie may turn him into the man I wished he would be --
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That's just your insecurity again. Barbie still sees the facade! She sees the handsome charmer, not the insecure lying abuser. No one can change someone else. If he didn't change while he was with you, I sincerely doubt he will change with her. He's lying to her as much as he's lying to you.

What a sad sad man.

I want what's best for him, even if it isn't me. And even if that hurts like hell. :(
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Carma, I want what's best for YOU. And it isn't him!
 
I have never been with a guy who looks this good before -- it's never been my thing, either! Most of the guys I've loved were kinda nerdy, or skinny. All I wanted was for Sundance to be REAL. But he was obsessed with his looks. It takes so much of his time! I was jealous of his routines! He didn't need another woman, really. I always felt second best, anyway. It made me sad for him, that he could never relax and be casual. The clothes, the grooming, the working out, the sit-ups, the diet. I am exhausted FOR him. And sorry he missed out on a woman who could have really loved the man underneath all of that shiny facade. I told him so, all the time. But he couldn't hear me. I guess he needs someone who is impressed by that image. Who will really appreciate him. :(
 
Carma said:
I have never been with a guy who looks this good before -- it's never been my thing, either! Most of the guys I've loved were kinda nerdy, or skinny. All I wanted was for Sundance to be REAL. But he was obsessed with his looks. It takes so much of his time! I was jealous of his routines! He didn't need another woman, really. I always felt second best, anyway. It made me sad for him, that he could never relax and be casual. The clothes, the grooming, the working out, the sit-ups, the diet. I am exhausted FOR him. And sorry he missed out on a woman who could have really loved the man underneath all of that shiny facade. I told him so, all the time. But he couldn't hear me. I guess he needs someone who is impressed by that image. Who will really appreciate him. :(
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Wow. I dated one of these types in university. I completely understand what you mean. And he expected me to be the same as him ...

Granted the sex was great, probably why it took me so long to see the light.
 
Carma, I'm just tossing this out there, but you might want to take a look at some info on ADHD. I'm just seeing a lot of stuff in what you describe about Sundance that reminds me of some people I know. :)

It may not have anything to do with your situation... but I had to at least suggest it.

I recommend Melissa Orlov's site http://www.adhdmarriage.com/ for an overview.

(((Hugs))))

Take care of youse.
 
I've wondered many times if he has ADHD. One therapist said he wasn't -- that he just had too much on his plate, was trying to juggle too many things. I see him like he's on a hamster wheel, all the time, and he can't/won't get off for long. He's like stir-crazy. He hasn't read a book (People magazine doesn't count, right?) in 13 years. Then again -- he can sit out in the sun doing absolutely nothing for four hours straight on a Saturday, just to get a tan....

Thanks for the link, M, I'm going to read it.

I can't believe I never made a dent in the obsession over his looks. I have spent 13 years trying! What a waste. He didn't care what I thought. It was all about what HE thought -- that his appearance had to come first. I thought he'd relax, once he realized I loved him.

HOW long does it take to accept that you can't change people? Am I a slow learner, or what. I sure feel like I was wasting time. If I can't love the body almighty, and stop pressing him to strengthen his mind and his intellect, then I'm not part of his program, at all. He's smart, too, so it's really frustrating. He had so much potential!

I feel so sorry for him. :(

But maybe I should be glad for him. He's barely speaking to me. Maybe he's relieved to be free to find someone who will.... love the facade?? What??? No, I'm sad. I KNOW he's more than just a pretty face, great hair and a rocking body. There's a real person in there. Damn.
 
It's frustrating! I'm not really good at accepting that I am POWERLESS. I am in 12-step, so I should be getting this, right?!

I'm struggling with the new way we are relating. The roommate thing is healthier for us right now. But it feels so weird sometimes. Before Barbie ("B.B."!) we used to talk and text quite a lot throughout the day. Now there is a lot of empty space, and silence, and when we do talk it can get pretty awkward.

I gave him a candy bar and a card for Sweetest Day -- nothing super romantic, but I wanted to acknowledge him. He IS still my husband, and a human being. It's weird, though, because we never really celebrated Sweetest Day, or even Valentine's Day, because we always treated each other with love, every day of the year. He was really romantic, actually. Used to bring me flowers at least once a week, or bring me coffee, gave me compliments, said "I love you" all the time. So I guess today I wanted to take the opportunity to say, "I still care about you, you know."

He said, "Oh, it's Sweetest Day?" I said, "Yeah, oh darn, did you forget to get something for your girlfriend?" He said, "I DON'T HAVE A GIRLFRIEND." WHY did I bring her up? Why do I get right back on that merry-go-round? I didn't have to be all snarky. :mad: I swear, it's like I was resentful he didn't take the opportunity to say, "I still care about YOU, you know," to ME. See how twisted my little brain can get -- ?! I'm so quick to jump on him. I'm looking for every little slight, to find "proof" that he cares for Barbie. All I have to go on is my imagination, because I don't really "know." Then I start to BELIEVE him. Ugh, the cycle.

He admits that he talks to her, so I do know that. I feel as long as he has contact with her, the chances he is still romantic with her are pretty good. The chances I'll still be suspicious are pretty high, too. The only thing that will show the truth is TIME.

In the meanwhile -- Barbie is not our only problem! His relationship with her is something that needs to run its course, whatever that may be, but we need to make some changes, anyway. So I have to focus more on the things we have been ignoring for years, and trying to act more responsibly and proactively in those areas.

I'm reading Codependent No More (which I swear I have already read, probably TWICE, but it's like all new all over again) and I'm attending 12-step meetings. And sharing here, because you all give me such terrific feedback and perspective, it's really awesome. I come here to get as real as I can get.

One thing Sundance said really struck me as ironic. He said, "I still talk to her, but we aren't together. She says she can see us together in the future..." Butch and I say we are together just for today, but we don't foresee a future together! We just live in the present, because really that's all we've got. I told Sundance that. I don't ever downplay my love for Butch. If I do, I'll just be living a lie again, and I don't have to live that way. But .... I can't turn off my love for Sundance, either. It's still there, underneath all the shit that's happened.

The card I gave Sundance said:
"Love isn't in the falling...
It's in the staying."

In spite of the unhealthy state of our relationship, I do still love him. And we're still married. Maybe we can rebuild something, out of friendship first. Maybe we can learn to respect each other. Maybe we can grow, individually, then grow together as a couple again. I don't know if any of that is possible, but just for today I think I can try to give him the space he needs, and use the space I need to get strong and healthy. I do love being together for our wonderful kids -- we both love that. Right now the best way to love Sundance is to love his (OUR) kids. So I'm going to pour it on them! :)

Reading back through this, I realize it sounds like we are always so serious with each other. I do have to say, we have some fantastic moments when we laugh at the situation and tease each other lightly, and it is terrific when that happens. Redpepper was encouraging someone on another post recently to have a sense of humor. She is so right on. The laughter cuts through a lot of stupid shit. Sometimes it's the laughter that shows me a glimmer of hope for us.

Life is good. Loving more is good. I'm glad to be just where I am, right now. I hope you all have a great day, too, my forum friends. :cool:
 
Dear Carma,
I've just read through the latest batch and caught up from the last time that I was here. I was on the look-out for remarks of yours - or others - that I could comment on, but nothing in particular stood out. And now I think that that's a good thing, because I'm not going to deal with details, but give you an over-view. (Of course - as always - it's MY over-view, and might not suit [or be suitable for] you.)

I really, really think that you need to stop obsessing on SK and spend a lot more time thinking about YOU. In fact, I think that it might be healthy for you to stop thinking about SK altogether. Impossible, I know, but as little as possible, at least for a while. And that's going to mean stop being roomies. I don't mean stop living under the same roof, because I think that (with a lot of work and willingness on both sides) this might well work out as the best possible solution. But sleeping in the same bed, when you're unwilling to hug or cuddle with him??? Come on! No wonder he tosses and turns all night. Get your own room, or get SK to move into another. You need some space for yourself.

I wrote in my last post here that you aren't responsible for SK's behaviour, but you ARE for your own.

I'll say here that I think that you and SK ARE going to have to sit down and thrash out a lot of stuff. But not right now. Not right now.

I've come to the conclusion that your biggest problem is yourself. Or, to be more exact, your feelings about yourself. You're SO down on yourself that it hurts me to read it. And until you
a) gain some self-esteem,
b) stop feeling responsible for how SK treats you,
c) stop flagellating yourself,
you're not going to be able to deal with SK honestly and healthily.

Even if I were convinced that his motives were none but the best (which I'm not [neither am I sure of the contrary]), he manipulates you. You can't stop him trying to do that... but you can stop playing the "easily manipulated" role. Only AFTER you've made BIG advances on that front should you try to thrash your future out with him. Because, until you do, my feeling is that you're BOTH going to be thrashing you.

+++

Oh, and that wasn't exactly true about "nothing in particular stood out". I feel like using strong language here, like "For GOD'S sake...!", "For SHIT'S sake...!", "For FUCK'S sake...!"; I could even manipulate your [Catholic] guilt complex and write "For YOUR CHILDREN'S sake...!", but I'm going to risk being honest (and hope against hope that you'll take this seriously for once) and write "For CARMA'S sake...GO GET YOURSELF TESTED
NOW!!!​
"
(Yet another symptom of your not loving yourself enough, that you "went with the flow" there.)
 
MF -- OKAY!!!!

Had the weirdest weekend. Good, I guess.

I asked Sundance if I could see his pictures on his phone. He said, "Are you sure? I don't want you to get upset." I braced myself, but I said I'd be ok. She has sent him some of the most gorgeous pictures. She looks like a Playboy model. I was a little jealous, about her looks but more so that she has been sending these pictures all along and he has been downplaying their relationship.... but overriding the jealousy was a feeling of gratitude that he took the risk of sharing things with me.

We talked a lot this weekend, and he has finally admitted to me that he has "a deep affection for her." Finally, some truth. And as much as it does sting, it is still so much better to have him opening up about his feelings for her.

Ironic: he went online to look up ADHD, because SHE has it. He recognized much of himself in reading the symptoms! (Right on, Minxxa!) Maybe we are on the right track towards something.
 
nycindie said:
I just got an email announcing that it's ADHD Awareness Week!
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LOL! Seriously... it's out there more than I thought for sure. And the symptoms are a lot different and more complex than you normally hear about, especially if you look at the symptoms and how they come out in actual relationships (like significant other type relationships).

Carma... if you two really think that might be the case, I totally recommend getting the ADHD and Marraige book. It is a great book for people in relationships to see how ADHD is affecting their marraige, and how to see where our (the non-add'ers) reactions to what's going on just makes the situation worse. So it's great to get both parties to see where their behavior is being not-productive...

If you guys really relate to it after that, there are a couple of other great ADHD books out there, including one that talks about how ADHD is a trait that was (and is) useful to people for specific jobs and duties, and it's only in this wierd world we live in now with all the expectations and type A shit that it starts to seem like a negative. I love that book because it appreciates the differences in someone with ADHD and shows how they can be useful and wonderful.

My hubs (love him dearly!) is so much fun and we have a great time because of that and a lot of that is because of the ADHD personality traits. It's part of him, and part of why I fell for him, and I'd NEVER want him to be different.

The problems come with communication, focus and (for some people) the self-esteem issues and lying. That's why I'm hoping to work on that with him both for our relationship but also for his own happiness. I've really learned how to communicate better with him, and though sometimes he still takes what I say the wrong way, it happens a lot less often.

Anyway, can't hurt to take a look! :)
 
Carma said:
MF -- OKAY!!!!

Had the weirdest weekend. Good, I guess.

I asked Sundance if I could see his pictures on his phone. He said, "Are you sure? I don't want you to get upset." I braced myself, but I said I'd be ok. She has sent him some of the most gorgeous pictures. She looks like a Playboy model. I was a little jealous, about her looks but more so that she has been sending these pictures all along and he has been downplaying their relationship.... but overriding the jealousy was a feeling of gratitude that he took the risk of sharing things with me.

We talked a lot this weekend, and he has finally admitted to me that he has "a deep affection for her." Finally, some truth. And as much as it does sting, it is still so much better to have him opening up about his feelings for her.

Ironic: he went online to look up ADHD, because SHE has it. He recognized much of himself in reading the symptoms! (Right on, Minxxa!) Maybe we are on the right track towards something.
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Hubs used to always downplay his relationships (and we were always open), and it used to drive me crazy. I finally told him that if the relationships weren't that big of a deal then WHY THE HELL WAS HE DATING THEM? And to me to date someone you aren't that into means you're doing it for all the wrong reasons. He finally got it at one point-- I think in his mind he thought if he said he had a great time it would hurt me, but that was something he had made up in his own head, not something that was true for me.

That is an ADHD thing that happens a lot-- they're afraid to get a bad reaction, so they downplay, don't tell the whole truth, keep things secret, etc. Part of that usually comes from a childhood of being "not good enough" or always getting in trouble for not Paying Attention, etc... but still, as an adult it's time to recognize why and stop doing it. :)

If you do read the ADHD & marraige book, read the part about the focused attention. Usually at the beginning of the relationship they have this extreme focus on the person like they are the only person in the world. After a while this fades away and they aren't like that anymore (though usually they don't realize they've lost focus and still feel the same way about their partner). With ADHD people in poly relationships this is tough because they are much worse at shifting between a new partner (and the focus and good feelings) and their old partner. Basically it's NRE on steroids-- and it exacerbates the poor judgment and impulsive actions even more than normal ADHD or normal NRE.

Basically, it sucks. LOL

The only thing I've learned from going through this was to make sure I was getting my needs met, and waiting. Because eventually the NRE will fade, AND the hyperfocus will fade, and it will become a normal relationship with eyes wide open, or it will disappear.

And... ADHD peeps tend to be attracted to people with issues. There's something about the excitement and conflict and doing crazy things (no impulse control) that jacks up their dopamine levels, which makes them "feel good" and counteracts the ADHD chemical reactions so they don't feel so all over the place. It's like a drug, literally.

And one last thing since I"m on a roll... there's a book called The Woman's Guide to Total Self Esteem (http://www.amazon.com/Womans-Guide-...2418/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1318878779&sr=8-6) I totally recommend you get it. :)
 
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I am going to get the book(S)! I never knew what an effect ADHD could have on a marriage. I am totally floored.

I am thinking a few things. One, if he won't address the problem and seek treatment, I'm not going to put much effort into our relationship. I'm exhausted, and I deserve better.

Secondly, I'm going to stop placing all the blame on myself, for our marital problems, due to my affair. Looking back, I can see so much more clearly why I felt so alone and disconnected from him -- it's no wonder I had an affair! Then come to find out, my bf is NOT ADHD, so of course it felt refreshing to be with someone who can FOCUS. Duh.

Now I think Sundance is using Barbie like some crack! He seems pretty hooked on her attention to him, her flattery, her admiration of him and her NEED for him, to help her with her problems. He wants to rescue her like he never could rescue himself.

Ironic because that's sort of what I did with Butch -- his circumstances were so horrible, I wanted to help him through them. One big difference, though -- Butch and I knew it was a temporary arrangement. Barbie and Sundance fantasize of a FUTURE together! Well -- SHE does, and Sundance goes along. (Or so he says). He tells ME he will never leave me, that he wants to grow old with me.....

WHY, I wonder??? I call him on his shit, all the time. I would think he just wants a girl he can coast with.

But maybe once I understand a bit more about ADHD, I will be better able to understand and deal with his shit. Only if he's willing to do some research, too, however. I am not going to make him my little project. If he won't try to get better, I don't see much hope for a partnership -- and that even includes living as roommates, partners in parenting, whatever. He owes it to his family to get his attention focused on the things that really matter to him. If it's Barbie, SO BE IT.

I LOVE what you said -- if the relationship is "no big deal," like he says it is, then WHY THE HELL is he in it???? SUCH a relevant question!!!! I mean, he is investing such a great deal of time and effort into someone he supposedly can't even see a future with - ?? :confused: It's pretty much a huge insult! I too would rather know he is in love and having a great time with her, great sex, great conversations, great energy, whatever. I could have some real compersion for that! But sometimes he makes it sound like she is a real chore! How ridiculous, then, for him to feel obligated to her, or whatever the hell he feels. I don't see where this is benefitting him, at all, really. Unless he really is lying about how he feels about me. Which -- well, that could be true, too, of course. Maybe he does have a personality disorder, who knows? I'm tired of putting all my energy into diagnosing him, and our marriage. Sometimes I think I am really hoping she wins him over, and I can get on with my life, and put this insanity behind me. :(

Yeah, maybe I'll read the Self Esteem book first..... Let the ADHD be his -- and her -- problem! ;)
 
LOL. Well read the ADHD and marraige book too, if only because it will spotlight things that are NOT your problem, so you can stop taking credit for them and also show you how you reacting in certain ways only then makes the problem worse, so you can stop acting in those ways and find at least some peace in that.

But yeah, don't see him as your pet project. He has to want to figure out what's going on for himself. Some do, some don't. But at least if YOU know what's going on it helps you feel less crazy. :D

She kind of IS like crack to him right now. That newness in relationships thing hits a boatload of chemicals which make him feel good, where normally he feels a bit flighty and unfocused and stupid, etc. It's sort of a poor-man's ADHD drug. But like NRE, it will pass as well, and then he'll be in the same boat, and dealing with a person he may or may not be compatible with at all.

Anyway I can only speak for myself but finding out about it helped ME to see where he was coming from, and why he does some of the wierd-ass shit he does. It doesn't change it really, but helps me see it as part of him instead of something that needs to be CHANGED! :) Also, changing how I say things and how I react does tend to change some of his behavior, so that's helpful just in the keeping the peace sort of way.
 
Carma,

What do you want in the end ? ....You have control of your life...right ...so get on with your life and put this insanity behind you....that sounds like the perfect plan. ...go for it.

Whats the status on the medical testing....done that right?

You mentioned exposing Butch to STD's and his fragile health ....aren't you afraid of killing him during one of those "meeting " with only 20% of heart function I think you better learn CPR...or he better get the defib machine and leave it on the night stand. I'm speaking now as one healer to another....it's in the healers oath. ....don't kill anyone.
 
Butch has a BUILT IN defib.

He's not speaking to me right now. He said he needs "a break from this madness." I have to respect that. :( So -- no more exposure for either of us, to possible disease. I realize the risk has already been taken, so I will get tested. But I have to admit I am relieved for now, not to be having sex with anyone. But most especially, with Sundance and Barbie and all the men she may be sleeping with. I really don't need that. And Butch certainly doesn't.

I'm detaching from Sundance. He sent a text picture to Barbie of our kids at the ice cream place (we were together as a family). WTF. He says she means nothing, etc., etc., etc. But this was a clear sign to me. I am basically done. There is anger, sure, and sadness, and lots of emotion, but overall, I know it's the right decision for me. I am trying to have some peace about it.
 
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