What am I missing here or overlooking

kdt26417 said:
I am thinking that for now, you can operate on the assumption that she is interested in you, separately from the interest she has in Madmaxx. Go on that summer vacation with her, and have a good time. It's not guaranteed that you're safe, but I believe it's 99% certain.
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As of right now I am deciding to go with the flow. I was very fine with turning it into a V with him at the hinge and then she just went after me (with touching and kissing) so I know nothing was forced on my part. I am just letting her take the lead and see where it goes.
 
That sounds like the right idea to me.
 
Update again:

Well last night was a big eye opener and left me with more questions than answers.

I felt sick yesterday. I have stomach issues and every few months I just feel sick. So I let the group know during the day and said I wasn’t up for things but would like to still do dinner and a movie in bed. (This is all over text) madmaxx says something sexy later and I ask point blank, are you asking to carry on without me tonight since I am sick. He says no, I am only interested in group work. End of text.

Ok fast forward to that night. She comes over we lay in bed. She snuggles with him. I lay on the other side of him. As the movie is concluding she starts making out with him. He was starting to fall asleep so everytime he started she started to kiss him. Then she grabs him and trys to start jacking him off. But he doesnt stop her. She ends up giving up seeing that he isnt giving her anything back, says I think I will let you guys sleep and she goes home.

I do not know what I should have done. If anything. What he should have done, although I have a pretty good idea on that. And where to go now.

I am upset with him, he feels stupid and knows he violated an agreement. (Do what you say) how do you build trust if you say I am only interested in this yet do something different. Or worse lead her on by not saying anything.

I am very upset with her. She never asked consent. If she was a male and did that it would be a very big deal.

Also again I have no idea what we are doing. Talking has pretty much stopped. I try and get almost zero back. They both say fwb but what we are doing is not fwb.
 
It seems to me that Madmaxx told you and Pip that he wanted sexual play, then when the time came he backed out without saying anything about it. That's something for Madmaxx to fix. As soon as Pip started kissing him he should have said, "I am sorry, I didn't know I'd be this tired, but I'm not up for a sexual encounter after all." Or something like that. At the very latest he should have said something like that at that time, of course it would have been better if he would have said something sooner, if he knew sooner. Bottom line, he led Pip on. I think he owes her an apology. He possibly owes you an apology too, he kind of put you in a bad spot, wanting you to play when you were feeling sick.

I don't think you did anything wrong. As for Pip, maybe she could have been more cautious and said, "Is this okay?" Although, I am thinking that many men like it when the woman is forward like that. I guess I consider it a gray area. I don't think you are obligated to do anything at this point, but you could formally request a sit-down with all three of you, so you can all talk.
 
kdt26417 said:
It seems to me that Madmaxx told you and Pip that he wanted sexual play, then when the time came he backed out without saying anything about it. That's something for Madmaxx to fix. As soon as Pip started kissing him he should have said, "I am sorry, I didn't know I'd be this tired, but I'm not up for a sexual encounter after all." Or something like that. At the very latest he should have said something like that at that time, of course it would have been better if he would have said something sooner, if he knew sooner. Bottom line, he led Pip on. I think he owes her an apology. He possibly owes you an apology too, he kind of put you in a bad spot, wanting you to play when you were feeling sick.

I don't think you did anything wrong. As for Pip, maybe she could have been more cautious and said, "Is this okay?" Although, I am thinking that many men like it when the woman is forward like that. I guess I consider it a gray area. I don't think you are obligated to do anything at this point, but you could formally request a sit-down with all three of you, so you can all talk.
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I asked him to clarify what he meant when he said group work. He said he meant if one person was on in then no one is doing anything. Ok thats way different then what we heard. Especially over text. So yes again he lead her on.

He said he never wanted to play. Just watch the movie and sleep.
 
Here's my impressions, FWIW. I don't know if it helps you any.


I do not know what I should have done. If anything. What he should have done, although I have a pretty good idea on that. And where to go now.
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You could have said "Hey, I'm sick guys. This was not coming over for group sex. This was coming over for keeping me company/doing comforting things while sick."

He could have said "I was falling sleep. I do not want you groping me when I'm not fully present. I want you to ask consent first."

You decided to let her take the lead. She basically did, and then you did not like it.

  • You discovered you prefer she ask for explicit consent -- if he wants to receive X and if you want to be watching it.
  • You discovered you don't like him doing mixed messages. Telling you only group sex, and then being ok with making out/hand jobs in front of you.
  • You discovered you want him to ask too. Because he's not asking your consent either - if you want to be watching them do sexy stuff as a couple and you as an observer.
  • You discovered maybe having serious convo over text is not the best medium. Leave text for stuff like "Luv u!" or "Don't forget to buy milk like you said this morning" level stuff. Not talking about your sex life or this new FWB thing. Do that in person to minimize misunderstandings.

I don't mind my spouse having another lover, but I am going to be PISSED if I open the door with a trail of kids behind me and see them going at it at the kitchen table. Not that there's anything wrong with kitchen table sex, but come ON! A heads up would be nice. Not just springing things on people willy nilly.

You have had things sprung on you and it did not feel nice. Speak up about it.

I think you guys need to talk and put it all on the table PLAIN.

Maybe these worksheets will help you have those conversations.

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

Especially

http://openingup.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Open-Relationship-Checklist-OU.pdf

Because you all have to have the same definition of "FWB." Not one person thinks it means A, and another person thinks it means B and another person thinks it means C. You could also talk about consent.

You could even do that sheet in colors -- green for "good to go, no need to ask me", yellow for "depends on situation. Proceed with caution. Ask first." Red for "No. Not likely ever."

Then compare each others sheets and see what lines up and what does not. Err on the side of caution and make the group consensus sheet for this period of time, and check in again X months out. Over time maybe some of the yellow things becomes green or maybe not.

But at least it gives you a conversation tool to help you define and articulate what common ground right now is gonna be. Right now "muddling your way along" sounds like more like a drag than fun.

You guys also don't seem to talk in trio. It's he said/she said/she said and there might be some triangulation going on. I cannot tell.

I do think it is not enough for him to say to you "group work only" -- he has to say it to her too. Make ALL the partners aware of where he stands clearly. And if he changes his mind, there could be an expectation that he TELL people that.

She's got to reign it in some and ask for explicit consent more often, esp while things are new. Not just consent to receive sexy acts, but consent to be watching it. If you feel sick to your stomach you might not WANT to be watching all that go down right then even if you ARE the other FWB. Some common courtesy, please!

And you need to reign it in LESS and start speaking UP more. It's ok to vent here after the fact. But I think what will help you more is to start speaking up more in the moment. Nip this stuff in the bud and advocate for yourself more so you are less annoyed by behaviors and less confused for "what kind of relationship is this?"

It doesn't fall out of the sky. YOU create what kind of relationship this is together. You all agree on how you want to be together. Have the talks you need to be having and actually sort all that out.

Galagirl
 
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Re (from Belladonna):
"He said he never wanted to play. Just watch the movie and sleep."
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Well, then that's what he should have said. "I won't want to play. Just watch the movie and sleep." That's what he should have said instead of what he texted, which sounded to me like, "I'll want the three of us to play sexually." I'm confused by the way he (later) interpreted that, it almost sounds like gaslighting. :(
 
Madmaxx should have been more clear. Allowing her to touch him and not respond upsets both of you. She is used to regularly touching him, so consent may not be something she thought of as necessary in the moment, particularly if he didn't refuse. So she probably felt like a fool when she realized she was going on with him not responding or refusing and you were probably pissed.

Pip does seem to be presuming a lot, but frankly, it isn't that rare for a partner to try and get their partner in the mood and see if there is potential for action. She has pushed into your relationship so extensively, she may not even have realized that you two don't actually see her as someone who can presume on your willingness or initiate if you don't wish.

I have not been in a triad, but in all the relationships I've had, it isn't rare for someone to try and seduce a partner who is not in the mood. Refusing to take a no is a different matter. It does not feel non-consensual if it is an allowed part of routine touch and she did stop and leave when he didn't respond. She probably was in the mood and tried to initiate things regardless and see if it worked.

At least she was clear about what she wanted and accepted that when it didn't work. Sure, she should have respected the text messages earlier, but it isn't unheard of for lovers to change their mind once in proximity.

In that sense, I see Madmaxx more in the wrong than her. For that matter, you as well. If this was not what you wanted, a flat "no" would have stopped the mess in its tracks. If both of you were clear that sex was not happening, an immediate no when she tried to initiate would prevent irritation for you, awkwardness for Madmaxx and humiliation for Pip.
 
Yeah, you guys need to communicate with her better. Right now you are a couple making all the decisions. There are THREE of you. If you can't get over being a couple then you are not ready. She is expected to only have sex in threesomes? Is that what she wants? Are you and maxx allowed to have sex alone together?

I get the feeling madmaxx is being a "yes man" to you. "Whatever you want, dear."
 
anamikanon said:
Madmaxx should have been more clear. Allowing her to touch him and not respond upsets both of you. She is used to regularly touching him, so consent may not be something she thought of as necessary in the moment, particularly if he didn't refuse. So she probably felt like a fool when she realized she was going on with him not responding or refusing and you were probably pissed.

Pip does seem to be presuming a lot, but frankly, it isn't that rare for a partner to try and get their partner in the mood and see if there is potential for action. She has pushed into your relationship so extensively, she may not even have realized that you two don't actually see her as someone who can presume on your willingness or initiate if you don't wish.

I have not been in a triad, but in all the relationships I've had, it isn't rare for someone to try and seduce a partner who is not in the mood. Refusing to take a no is a different matter. It does not feel non-consensual if it is an allowed part of routine touch and she did stop and leave when he didn't respond. She probably was in the mood and tried to initiate things regardless and see if it worked.

At least she was clear about what she wanted and accepted that when it didn't work. Sure, she should have respected the text messages earlier, but it isn't unheard of for lovers to change their mind once in proximity.

In that sense, I see Madmaxx more in the wrong than her. For that matter, you as well. If this was not what you wanted, a flat "no" would have stopped the mess in its tracks. If both of you were clear that sex was not happening, an immediate no when she tried to initiate would prevent irritation for you, awkwardness for Madmaxx and humiliation for Pip.
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I agree. I should have been more clear. We are going to discuss boundaries and be more clear with each other in the future.

What I did say was “I am picking up imodiom ad and not sure how that works with play time because I am sick”

What I should have just said I do not feel well I will not be up for play tonight. I will do better about that in the future.
 
vinsanity0 said:
Yeah, you guys need to communicate with her better. Right now you are a couple making all the decisions. There are THREE of you. If you can't get over being a couple then you are not ready. She is expected to only have sex in threesomes? Is that what she wants? Are you and maxx allowed to have sex alone together?

I get the feeling madmaxx is being a "yes man" to you. "Whatever you want, dear."
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I think that is their deal with Pip. In that sense, she's their "unicorn" even though she isn't bisexual (or at least claims not to be). So the relationship with Pip appears to be "with both or none", though Pip appears to be more interested in him and more collaborative/competitive with her. Belladonna appears to be more in control of what happens for all of them, but is rattled because things don't quite seem to be unfolding as she expects - without being outright breaking the rules.

I see this as Belladonna attempting to keep the relationship with Pip within specific boundaries and context, while Pip attempting to break through that to a more equal footing with Madmaxx.

Madmaxx does appear to agree to whatever Belladonna says, and, I suspect, if Belladonna doesn't say anything, whatever Pip says.
 
vinsanity0 said:
Yeah, you guys need to communicate with her better. Right now you are a couple making all the decisions. There are THREE of you. If you can't get over being a couple then you are not ready. She is expected to only have sex in threesomes? Is that what she wants? Are you and maxx allowed to have sex alone together?

I get the feeling madmaxx is being a "yes man" to you. "Whatever you want, dear."
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That is what was pitched to me by her and him. She only wanted play as threesomes, fwb, no relationships. (This is what she tells me)

I never pitched anything to her. She has been the driving force in most of this. Now thats not to say I do not want it but I have never put rules on her.

As of late the rules were he only plays in group and me and her can play in group or play alone (and we have). These rules have been made by them not me.

Are me and madmaxx allowed to have sex outside of the group. Yes and she is also allowed to have any sort of relationship outside of us without even having to share that.
 
anamikanon said:
I think that is their deal with Pip. In that sense, she's their "unicorn" even though she isn't bisexual (or at least claims not to be). So the relationship with Pip appears to be "with both or none", though Pip appears to be more interested in him and more collaborative/competitive with her. Belladonna appears to be more in control of what happens for all of them, but is rattled because things don't quite seem to be unfolding as she expects - without being outright breaking the rules.

I see this as Belladonna attempting to keep the relationship with Pip within specific boundaries and context, while Pip attempting to break through that to a more equal footing with Madmaxx.

Madmaxx does appear to agree to whatever Belladonna says, and, I suspect, if Belladonna doesn't say anything, whatever Pip says.
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Yes. You are correct.

But as far as madmaxx agreeing to everything I say. That is a sometimes but usually no. I ask a lot of questions when we have conversations. Its a big deal to me for someone to tell me what they want. And in our marriage he runs the show. I am his sub.
 
I would like to clear one thing up. I do not ask for thressomes. She askes for them. Only her. She askes when is our next play date then we all plan the date.
Once did I ask for her to come over and me and her ended up having sex. But as far as threesomes go that is her requesting them. If she never asked for them again I would not ask for them.

I do ask for us to go places and do things as friends but sex is not a requirement for me.
 
And also i want to thank everyone for their advice. It is very much appreciated. I do come here to vent or to see the other side of things. I do not want to think I am always being wronged or the victim. I am neither of those. But I also want it to be pointed out what I can do to makes things better. (Like speaking up, asking what others what, etc)

I want to keep a level head and not have all my new emotions running amuke.

I am heavily involved in the local poly community. (Only me) (why am I heavily involved? I practed poly for the past few years, became pretty involved in the community as friends and have remained as such)
So I know things that can benefit us (like talking, boundaries, not treating people like objects) but I do come here instead of there with my problems because this is anonymous and you guys give wonderful advice.
 
anamikanon said:
I thought you described a situation where you didn't want sex to happen because you were ill and you were pissed off because she initiated anyway?
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I am sorry. I was not more clear. I meant play dates.
Yes I understand that comes off super confusing.

She askes when are our next play dates. We schedule them and then the play ensues. Last night I was ill and not up for play.

I also never said I was pissed. I was not pissed. My feeling were hurt. I was sick. If she was over and sick and madmaxx nd me had sex in front of her that would also be wrong.
 
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Belladonna said:
I am sorry. I was not more clear. I meant play dates.
Yes I understand that comes off super confusing.

She askes when are our next play dates. We schedule them and then the play ensues. Last night I was ill and not up for play.

I also never said I was pissed. I was not pissed. My feeling were hurt. I was sick. If she was over and sick and madmaxx nd me had sex in front of her that would also be wrong.
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Yes, it would be wrong. Or terribly insensitive, rather.

I don't know, Belladonna. I can't quite put my finger on it, I get a sense that all isn't quite on the level here. Not from YOUR angle necessarily, but still, there is something slightly "off" with the dynamics between you three and this "thou dost protest too much" FWB stuff.

I'm not entirely convinced that Pip isn't somewhat strategically trying to insert herself between you and Madmaxx. I'm not saying she's not interested at all in you sexually and/or romantically, Belladonna, however it seems she's more attracted to madmaxx; which would be pretty natural for an ostensibly straight woman.

Have you considered the possibility that - because it has been made clear to Pip that madmaxx isn't interested in dating her alone (not to mention there seems to be a rule that "play" is confined to the three of you together, or just you/Pip, but NOT Pip/Madmaxx by themselves) - it may follow that the reason Pip is so keen to initiate play dates with ALL three of you is because it's the ONLY way she can guarantee getting "sexytime" with madmaxx?

Whatever the case, clear communication is still sorely lacking. You seem to be treading on eggshells around this woman to some degree. As an experienced poly advocate and bdsm practitioner, you KNOW that's not going to lead anywhere constructive.

- TALK to each other.
- Clear up the FWBs -vs- triad -vs- "V" style partners stuff once and for all. (Is there a relationship, or isn't there? Is Pip potentially into girls/you - i.e. heteroflexible - or isn't she?)
- Air your fears openly and honestly (as well as any grievances that are rattling around, unresolved.)
- Listen to what your husband AND your best friend have to say in response; not only when you're all together but also when each is alone with you.
- Employ your common sense AND intuition when observing if words match actions consistently.
- If you sense either of them hedging or just telling you what you want to hear, address the issue immediately instead of allowing your fears and resentments to grow and fester.
 
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lunabunny said:
Yes, it would be wrong. Or terribly insensitive, rather.

I don't know, Belladonna. I can't quite put my finger on it, I get a sense that all isn't quite on the level here. Not from YOUR angle necessarily, but still, there is something slightly "off" with the dynamics between you three and this "thou dost protest too much" FWB stuff.

I'm not entirely convinced that Pip isn't somewhat strategically trying to insert herself between you and Madmaxx. I'm not saying she's not interested at all in you sexually and/or romantically, Belladonna, however it seems she's more attracted to madmaxx; which would be pretty natural for an ostensibly straight woman.

Have you considered the possibility that - because it has been made clear to Pip that madmaxx isn't interested in dating her alone (not to mention there seems to be a rule that "play" is confined to the three of you together, or just you/Pip, but NOT Pip/Madmaxx by themselves) - it may follow that the reason Pip is so keen to initiate play dates with ALL three of you is because it's the ONLY way she can guarantee getting "sexytime" with madmaxx?

Whatever the case, clear communication is still sorely lacking. You seem to be treading on eggshells around this woman to some degree. As an experienced poly advocate and bdsm practitioner, you KNOW that's not going to lead anywhere constructive.

- TALK to each other.
- Clear up the FWBs -vs- triad -vs- "V" style partners stuff once and for all. (Is there a relationship, or isn't there? Is Pip potentially into girls/you - i.e. heteroflexible - or isn't she?)
- Air your fears openly and honestly (as well as any grievances that are rattling around, unresolved.)
- Listen to what your husband AND your best friend have to say in response; not only when you're all together but also when each is alone with you.
- Employ your common sense AND intuition when observing if words match actions consistently.
- If you sense either of them hedging or just telling you what you want to hear, address the issue immediately instead of allowing your fears and resentments to grow and fester.
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Thank you so much for your advice.

You are so right about everything.

I do think matter what everyones intentions are it will come out over time.
At work I audit things and learn behaviors. I am also working on my psychology degree. So I really should know better. Love, NRE they make things cloudy. I know they do for me. But people are who they are and unless they are very calculating they do end up saying what they mean or showing by actions.

I just need to make sure to look at them and not see what I want to see and what I want to hear.
 
Just when I think I have everything figured out it changes again.
Madmaxx and pip got into an argument. All intimaticy has stop between the three of us (I think that is a very good thing)

But now I get to see the hurt between both of them and the pride they both have to not fix this situation. I am trying to be there for both of them and at this point I do not mind. The funny part in all of this is I am taking her side.

I have a feeling we will all be together for a long time.
 
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