What are we doing to our marriage? We really need advice!

A

awakeandready

New member
I badly need some outside perspective and advice. This is my first post on this forum. I'm really sorry to be introducing myself like this, but I don't know where else to go. I'll try to be as brief as I can, but some background is necessary to really understand my situation. This is going to be long, no matter what. Just writing makes me feel somewhat better, so don't feel you have to read it all. But if you actually have the patience and have any thoughts for me, I will appreciate them.

I'm not even sure this question belongs on a forum about polyamory. Technically, what we are doing probably falls under the swinger banner, but there are strong aspects of poly in there, too. I could ask these questions and look for advice on a swingers forum, but I don't really think most swingers would understand the relationship dynamics, including the fact that we've found ourselves unintentionally emotionally involved with another couple.

My husband Dion and I have been together since we were literally kids. We are in our mid-40s now, but have been together 30 years, married for 25. We love each other deeply and passionately, are best friends, and have always been proud of our very strong marriage. Friends and family often comment on what a "perfect" couple we are. Our one child is now grown, so we are very young empty nesters.

It started out simply as a dare to each other to go to a nudist beach on vacation about 8 years ago. It turned out we loved it. Over the next few years, our vacations evolved to totally nude vacations, and we started seeking out nudist places at home.

I had never even considered non-monogamy. I guess I knew swinging existed, but I had never given it even a thought as something I would like to do.

There was nothing even remotely sexual about our nudism. We just enjoyed it and enjoyed the new friendships we were making.

Then, about three years ago, Dion told me about some voyeur/exhibitionist fantasies he had. He said he had been looking online and was really curious about all the other couples out there looking for the same thing. That is when he told me more about swinging and explained the differences to me about the different types of swinging (soft swinging vs full swapping).

At the time, I wanted absolutely nothing to do with it. On our next vacation, as it turned out, we actually had invitations from other couples to just be in the same room with them, which would have fulfilled Dion's voyeuristic fantasies.

But even the thought of doing that was really upsetting to me. There was some emotional, physical and sexual abuse in my early childhood, and though I had overcome the issues in my relationship with my husband, I still had a lot of sexual hang-ups.

However, Dion had planted the seed. Despite my hang ups, I am and always have been kind of a rebel--very adventurous and very unconventional. He had piqued my interest. Then some close friends of ours started swinging and telling us their wild stories. The next thing I knew, I was online researching and starting to get really curious and interested.

Now, briefly, Dion is very conventional and somewhat conservative. We've always balanced each other well. Without him to rein in my more adventurous, rebellious side, I could maybe get myself in trouble. He would be satisfied with a very simple, conventional life. I need adventure. But once I bring the adventure into our lives, he is always glad I did and enjoys it (e.g., traveling to offbeat places, political activism, nudism, etc.). Dion would have been all talk and no action when it came to the swinging if I hadn't become interested myself and taken the initiative.

He is also a very emotional person, and when he gets upset over something, really upset, it is like he loses control briefly. It isn't uncommon for him to break things and hit walls. There have been a few times in the past 30 years when he's been physical with me. Never hitting me or anything, but shoving me, or raising a hand to me and scaring me. And I've been in the path of items that were thrown a couple of times. Probably because of my background, I get very distressed over this behavior. His temper scares the hell out of me.

On the other hand, the vast majority of the time he is a very sweet, sentimental, and loving man who constantly tells me how much he loves me, both in words and action.

[To be continued...]
 
[Continued...]

Fast forward to about a year ago, we make the decision to venture very slowly and step-by-step into soft swinging. So we go to a swingers resort, and a few local clubs, and sign up for one of the websites. Right from the start, we were both turned off by the idea of anonymous sex and one-night stands, so without realizing we were doing it, we started looking for "friends with benefits." We had very mild soft-swinging experiences with several couples. Though we haven't continued swinging with them, the friendships we developed have continued.

Right from the start, Dion had issues with the swinging-- insecurity and some jealousy. On the other hand, I took to it really well. Any self-image and self-confidence problems I had virtually disappeared almost overnight. And any sexual hang-ups I had left over from the abuse-- gone. Completely gone. The best that I can explain it is that I had been repressing this sexual side of myself for all of these years, thinking that sex was bad and dirty. But when I finally gave myself permission to embrace my sexuality and just recognize it for what it was-- wow! Strange as it sounds, thanks to those swinging experiences I am a happier, healthier, more whole person than I have ever been.

But, as I said, Dion had issues with insecurity. Right from the very beginning, within a few hours of an experience, I would start to see that temper that I hate so much. Then once that had burned itself out, he would go through this whole range of emotions-- jealousy, sadness, guilt. Sometimes an agonizing day or two would go by when he wouldn't interact with me, didn't want to touch me, didn't want to talk about it. Then, the next thing you know, he's enthusiastic about it again, apologizing for his behavior, and looking forward to the next experience. It was a very emotionally-charged roller coaster for us both. Because of that, by last spring we had taken a step backwards, reassessing if and where we fit into "the lifestyle."

Then we meet this couple online and start corresponding with them. They were completely brand new to swinging and were just looking for advice regarding a local hotel party we had gone to, but the emails started going back and forth, and before you knew it, we had decided to meet them for drinks one night, just to talk and give them advice. Remember, we had taken a step back and weren't really looking for anything more at that point.

I'll call them Trey and Sage. That's where it started. Trey and Sage are an attractive couple, the same age group as us, and right from the start we really liked them both a lot, and them us. We were the first people they had met in the lifestyle. When we started soft swinging, we were their first experience, and still are the only people they've been with. We have incredible fun with them.

The sexual chemistry is intense, but we also, right from the start, began making very strong connections with them as friends. At first, it was mostly Trey and me connecting that way. We have similar personalities, approaches to life, lots in common. But I was also very friendly with Sage. Then Dion and Sage started to become good friends. Though it took him a little longer to really warm up to Trey, the guys are good friends now too.

The emotional roller coaster continued for Dion, but the ride was getting less intense, so all was good. Trey and Sage live quite a ways from us, and still have a young child at home, and we all have busy careers, so it isn't always as often as we might like, but we started seeing a lot of them. At first, it was every three weeks or so, but now that has increased to every week or two, both socially and for swinging "dates." We've each started to integrate the other couple into our everyday lives with family and other friends. Over the past 7 months not even a single day has gone by that we haven't talked to them, mostly by email and text.

By the end of summer, we had started full swapping with them. While we often get so focused on each other once a swap starts that we end up as two twosomes, we've also had some really hot threesomes and foursomes. There's no interaction between the guys. But Sage and I each have some bi tendencies, so we sometimes interact.

Anyway, it's been incredible with them. We have absolutely no interest in venturing out to other couples, and so far, they haven't either. Since we were each completely clean of any STIs, and monogamous for many years previously (except for our mild soft swinging) it has also been cool because we haven't had to use condoms-- a definite benefit of the exclusivity.

As I said, we also have this friendship going on with Trey and Sage, beyond the swinging. Recently, Dion and I have had many, many talks about how much we've come to care for them, what that means for us, and our marriage, what that means for them, and their marriage, what it means for the four of us as a quad, etc.

It is all VERY confusing. What is this we feel for them? Yes, it is swinging. It is also something more than that. But we don't know what it is. They are in our thoughts all the time. We find ourselves wanting to spend as much of our free time together as we can. I know I've become emotionally attached to them, and I worry a lot about getting hurt when one of the four decides to end it. That is inevitable, isn't it?

But I'm trying to just live in the moment, and enjoy this relationship for what it is while we have it. We've never known anyone with a relationship like this, so we have no model to go on. And Dion and I were so young when we met, that we have very little experience dating others--especially me. All of this is just so new, so unusual to us. Even to me, who is so unconventional and adventurous.

Even though Trey and I are probably the more impulsive two of the four, and things get REALLY hot between us when we are together, we've been really good at following the "rules" we each have as couples and never crossing any boundaries. I wouldn't even dream of doing anything to hurt Dion. I love him completely, and when he hurts, I hurt for him. I know disrespecting our boundaries (which keep getting fewer as time goes on) would hurt him. His well-being are always primary in my mind.

On the other hand, Dion and Sage have broken the rules and crossed boundary lines several times. This is a side of Dion that I have never seen before, as all of these instances have been the result of him initiating it. It is like, in the heat of the moment, he just forgets about me and does what he wants without any concern for my feelings. As a result, for the first time in our marriage I have some trust issues with him. But I'm working through them. I've told him that as long as he always remembers his priorities and keeps me primary, I'm okay with almost anything. I'm not a jealous person and I'm secure in Dion's love for me, so that helps.
 
(Continued part 3) Over the past 7 months with T&S, I've really tried to protect myself against getting hurt. I don't know why I'm so afraid of it, but I am. And when R has had his emotional outbursts he has threatened to just suddenly end the relationship with T & S, telling me that he just can't handle it anymore (T&S don't know any of this--we've so far kept our drama to ourselves). I want to respect my husband's feelings, I really do. And when he has said this before I have tried so hard not to get angry and just accept it, but I find myself really grieving over what I am sure is going to be the end of a relationship with people that I have come to care about so much. R has let me go on like this for as much as two days before telling me that he's feeling better and sorry and he didn't mean it. But in the meantime I've gotten a taste of just how much it could really hurt.

For the past few weeks now R has been telling me that he has become completely comfortable and as long as I continue to be open and honest with him and never to hide anything, there is nothing I could do with T that would upset him--basically that his insecurities and emotional roller coaster were a thing of the past. I really believed him and started to let my guard down and really feel this friendship with them--just kind of settle in it and quit worrying. What a relief!

New Years Eve T&S came to our place and we had an awesome night as usual. R told me after that he had "performance problems" that night, but I know he "finished" with S and it looked like they were having fun, so I'm not sure what he was talking about except maybe endurance. In the morning T had to work and left early but S stayed at our house. That's when one of the big boundary violations happened. We (the 4 of us) had talked briefly about maybe seeing each other separately but had agreed not to go ahead with that until we all had a chance to talk more about it. We hadn't had that talk yet but R proceeded to have sex with S without asking me if it was ok, without asking me to join them if I wanted, and alone in one of the bedrooms. Absolutely no concern for my feelings at all. No concern that I was alone and excluded. Then a few days ago he fessed up and told me he had cum inside of her on NYE even though one of our rules was that he would pull out for that--and I know he has the control to do that because he's been pulling out with me every time for years now (even when I told him I liked it inside and wished he wouldn't). So I was very hurt and upset over both of those things, but I tried not to get angry and not to blow things out of proportion, and I was doing my best to try and understand and forgive him.

All week as I was working through this R kept up telling me how awesome things were now, and how he wasn't insecure at all anymore, and he even used the words "I'm taking your reigns off to make your own decisions with T" because he trusted us both. S also felt bad for what had happened, said she was sorry, and said that they owed T & I some alone time.

So this weekend we went and spent two nights at their house. Before anything, we had a great talk about what was going on between the 4 of us and boundaries and where they stood now, and R told both T & S what he had told me...that his boundaries for me and T had evaporated and I was free to make my own decisions and that he would be okay with them. I talked about how I was okay with doing things as separate 2-somes as long as all 4 of us were together (i.e., separate rooms) but that I wasn't okay with someone being excluded without their consent, like R & S had excluded me the weekend before.

Then we got started, all 4 of us in the same room. T & I were having a great time together, but R later told me he was having "performance problems" (I think this time he meant he wasn't staying hard) and S was really tired and had to work the next morning, so at some point she left the room and went to bed. R came over and joined T & I for a while, but then he laid back and closed his eyes, pretty much indicating that he was done for the night. But T & I were not done, so when T left the room briefly to check on S, I asked R if it would be okay if T & I had a little time alone to finish up. It wasn't necessarily that I wanted to be alone with T, but I was uncomfortable continuing with R just lying there and not participating. R looked taken aback by my question and didn't answer, but when T came back he did get up and go upstairs, leaving us alone. So we proceeded. I think we were alone for maybe 45 minutes or so, then T left to go to bed and R came down to go to bed with me. But when R came down he made some comment about having been upstairs listening to us the whole time and he was acting angry and like he didn't want to touch me.

I laid awake almost all night worrying about R, and every time I looked over R was awake too, but by morning it seemed like it had pretty much blown over except that R was still being a little distant with me. S had to work so R & I spent the day with T and we had a really fun "vanilla" day just being friends. R even told me at several points during the day how much fun he was having and how he was enjoying hanging out with T. But we were all still really tired from the night before and agreed to just hang out and have a vanilla night when S came home, since we all had to work the next day.

But as the night went on there was some cuddling and then some kissing and things started to heat up. A few times I could see R making eyes at me over S's shoulder, basically telling me that he didn't want anything to happen. So I kept expecting him to call a stop at any time, which would have been okay with me, but he didn't and things started to heat up more and before you knew it clothes were coming off, so I figured he had changed his mind and decided he was into it too. T & S went to grab a blanket and candles from the other room at that point, so I had a few minutes alone with R, and that's when I realized he had been expecting ME to figure out his signals from across the room and for ME to stop things. Worse, he was not happy with me at all since I had "let" things progress to that point.

Not knowing what else to do, at that point I stopped it since it was clear that was what R expected of me, and I told T & S I was sorry, but we really were tired and were going to go to bed after all.

When we got downstairs, I was really annoyed and probably expressed that more than I should have knowing R's anger management problems like I do. But I was upset and I wanted him to know it. Not upset that he didn't want to continue the night. But upset at his expectations of me. We started arguing (thankfully quietly, I don't think T or S overheard) and before I knew it R was at that point of no return. He acually called me a slut, physically pushed me out of the bed, and got up and started to dress and said he was going home and leaving me to "fuck" T. I was beside myself...horribly embarrassed to have this happening in someone else's home and so afraid that if T & S overheard that would be the end of our relationship. They wouldn't put up with behavior like that and I wouldn't blame them.

As soon as R blew like that my reaction was to try and calm him down and eventually I did that enough that we laid down and went to sleep. We had to get up very early and drive home (a silent ride). That was yesterday. And things have been horrible since. The roller coaster is totally back and worse than ever. He has apologized for his behavior and the name he called me, but he keeps expressing silly insecurities that aren't true ("you don't make noises like that with me" and "you kept sitting closer to him than to me" and "I could tell you wanted to be with him more than me"). He actually asked me last night if I wanted to leave him. And he has threatened a couple of times to "call T right now and end it." Some of the insecurity might have something to do with him too, not just me, because he's talked a few times about "performance problems" and he didn't want to have them again on that second night and have S think that it was her. This morning he was acting sad and remorseful but told me that he didn't think he could "go where I wanted him to go," meaning the ongoing relationship with T & S, and that if I didn't want him to come home from work tonight I should just call and tell him.

So I'm back to grieving over what again seems like it will be a sure end to a relationship with a couple that I've grown to really care for. Maybe R will get over it again, but even if he does, is this drama going to keep happening over and over again? What are we doing to our marriage? Before when R got like this I just hurt for him and tried my best to understand and help him get past it. But this time given his recent boundary violations that I've tried so hard to be understanding of and forgive, I find myself angry at him and his unpredictable mood swings that seem so irrational since I haven't even done anything wrong. If we continue are we damaging our marriage in a way that we won't be able to fix? If we don't continue how will each of us deal with the loss of our friends? R keeps "accusing" me saying that I'll be "resentful" of him if he ends it. I want to say that isn't true. I love him. Our marriage is my priority. He's my best friend and my soulmate. I know that with all my heart and I've proved it to him over and over. But this "friendship" with T&S has really snuck up on me and I really do care about them and don't want it to end. How can I help but be angry and resentful if it ends this way? Would that be wrong of me? R seems to think it would. I'm so confused right now, so hurt, so scared.

If anyone actually read through all of this and has any thoughts or advice, I'm listening. Thanks and I'm so sorry for the novel.
 
Hey there. I'm so sorry to hear about the heartache you're going through.

The absolute number one issue here, no doubt about it, is Dion's anger-management issues. I thought that at the end of post 1, before the swinging even started. So I see this as having nothing to do with non-monogamy. Even if you closed your relationship back up tomorrow, this would still be something you'd HAVE to deal with to be healthy together.

Throwing things at you, and shoving you, especially when he's (presumably) the physically stronger one, is menacing, scary behavior. It's emotionally abusive, even if he's not leaving bruises. How would you react if you saw Trey treating Sage that way?

I'm not saying he's doing it on purpose, but he's an adult and he has a responsibility to get control of himself, for your sake, and his own sake.

Has he ever been to therapy? Would he consider it? I'm not a fan of ultimatums, and you clearly don't want to leave him, so I'm not going to tell you to walk out the door and not look back. But you may well have to threaten to leave, and maybe even follow through for a time, in order to challenge him to wake up and get healthy.

Healthy adults don't hurt their spouses; they're not incapable of maintaining a stable opinion about something important in their life; they don't break boundaries, and then turn around and belittle their partner when she hasn't done the same; they don't use other people as emotional leverage to threaten and bully their partner (which is what I see him doing by continually declaring that he might just cut things off with Trey and Sage).

This is not a healthy man. There's a reason you'd be mortified to let your friends see this side of your relationship, because you know it's wrong wrong wrong!

Victims of abuse are at great risk for ending up in abusive relationships as adults. This is an abusive relationship, despite all the times he's loving and sweet. It's up to you to decide for yourself-- are you willing to fight to break the pattern? Are you willing to believe you deserve a life where you're not treated in ways that would make your friends recoil in shock and sadness?

I haven't talked about swinging/poly yet, because It seems beside the point, but since advice on that is what you came here for, I guess I should at least touch on it.

There is no reason for it to be inevitable for one member of a quad to eventually end it. Why should it be, if all are happy? Great article about a live-in Utah quad: http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-217-14040-bigger-love.html?current_page=1

Right now, I don't want to encourage you to pursue polyamory, because your base isn't nearly stable enough for it, and you'd just end up with broken hearts all around when Dion exploded and couldn't handle it. :(

But, for the record, it's not uncommon for people to move from swinging to polyamory. It takes a lot of communication, respect, trust, patience, and then more communication to make it work. If you want to learn more about the fundamentals of how to have successful relationships in this sort of situation, I highly recommend the essays at www.morethantwo.com.

Please seek help, Awake. Best wishes.
 
Hullo there and welcome to the forum. I am sorry that you are going through some tough times.

In my opinion, you shouldn't just pull the plug with this other couple. It wouldn't be fair to you, or fair to them.

However, Dion is having conflicted emotions. Intellectually, when the situation is not actually on, he thinks he's okay and no boundaries are needed. Then when it happens, in front of him or close by, all of his negative emotions come over him like a wave.

It's not right that he is punishing you, or blackmailing you with threatening to end things. If I were in your situation, I would start with communicating to my hubs that it's okay to progress slow. No one is giving him extra brownie points for progressing fast. He also needs to start communicating more directly about his needs. It is not your responsibility to end interactions if he is the one having problems, no matter how many meaningful looks he gives you. He needs to start owning up to his emotions and behaviours, including the violent and abusive ones. Has he ever had therapy for his anger-management problems?

Like you said, you still have fun vanilla times with Trey and Sage. Maybe you could switch to that. Spend some non-stressful, non-physical date time as a quad, and in both individual couples.

Then, work on building a stronger foundation with Dion, with the focus on learning to communicate and manage emotions. If he is having "performance problems," and is worried Sage might think it's her, then HE needs to talk about that with her.

Of course, it's important to gauge Sage and Trey's feelings, as well. Are they interested in putting in the work to turn this from swinging into polyamory?
 
AnnabelMore beat me to it! But I agree with her whole-heartedly: this is not the time to pursue further sexual interactions with Trey and Sage.
 
awakeandready said:
One of our rules was that he would pull out for that, and I know he has the control to do that, because he's been pulling out with me every time for years now, even when I told him I liked it inside and wished he wouldn't.
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WHAAA?! I read to here and was like, what? Unprotected sex?! Really? Sorry, that's not in my vocabulary, and totally not the norm these days. How did this come about? I am very interested to know how this is justified.

On to the concern at hand: I don't think that having further contact with them is a good idea for now. dion has MAJOR issues and needs help. They won't get better by dumping anyone. The foundation of your relationship is going to crumble if he doesn't address this and get some help. If you stick around to walk in with him, that's great, but it's his task.

While you're at it, check into the facts about safe sex. Pulling out is not safe. Do a search here for "STI," "STD," "safer sex." You are in a world of denial, or lack of education, I don't know which, but that is a BIG thing for both of you to work on.

Did you talk about testing with Trey and Sage before you started having sex? Do you know for sure you have been the only ones? Get tested and get on the safer sex thing.

The other thing I thought I would mention is that the NRE looks to be over. Under a year usually means fun sexy times for most people, to be followed by a rough patch, where it becomes difficult and rather uncomfortable to adjust to a new level of relationship. It could be that the honeymoon is over and now the real-life crap is kicking in.
 
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Redpepper, I need to address this first. I know I wrote a novel and you probably missed it. But please, give us a little credit. We're all educated, intelligent adults.

Prior to our quad, Dion and I had been monogamous for 25+ years. Trey and Sage were mono for 15+ years. Plus we ALL were thoroughly tested for STIs. Pregnancy isn't an issue for either couple, although just for that off chance, both women are using backup. Yes, we had the responsible discussion with them.

Of course pulling out isn't safe sex! That was simply a request that I had made to him because I was uncomfortable with the idea. He pulls out with me because he LIKES to. That's the only reason. For now, I had asked that he do so with Sage, as well. That's all.
 
Jade said:
I'm curious what he says when you point out his hypocrisy.
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Of course, it depends on when you ask. There are times when he would try to defend himself and point out that he has had a lot of trouble with all of this from the very start, that he has been trying very hard to work through it, and that the hypocrisy is just a result of this roller coaster of emotions he's been on.

There's a lot of truth in that.

The majority of the time he simply acknowledges it, acknowledges that he is wrong, and tells me he feels like a shithead for what he's putting me through.
 
BlackUnicorn said:
It's important to gauge Sage's and Trey's feelings, as well. Are they interested in putting in the work to turn this from swinging into polyamory?
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Just to be clear, we have not discussed this as a quad and have never used the term polyamory. Polyamory is a scary word to me. I say that with the greatest respect for all of you who are living such authentic lives and calling it what it is.

Dion and I have used the poly word in our own talks. We have long, deep discussions about what is going on. When we were having trouble trying to figure it out, we did some research and reading about polyamorous relationships. But we still shy away from the word in labeling what is going on with us.

You have to remember that we came at this with a swinger mindset. I think this friendship that has developed has taken us all off guard. Not the friendship necessarily, because we all wanted that, and a deeper connection than just sex. It's the emotional attachment that came with the friendship that was surprising. We are currently at the point where if you were to ask any of us separately, we would probably describe it as "friends with benefits." Very, very close friends with benefits. Beyond that, I don't know if any of us are ready to put labels on it.

But I came to all of you for advice because I thought you might have a better understanding of the relationship dynamics going on...regardless of what we call it.
 
Fully understand

If you read some of my posts you will see this is exactly where we went. My wife and I were swinging, and we met this couple that we clicked with. One half of the group fell in love, and the other half wasn't far behind, we now consider ourselves a fourple.

If you would really like to talk about this, I hate writing novels, so PM me.
 
awakeandready said:
The majority of the time he simply acknowledges it, acknowledges that he is wrong, and tells me he feels like a shithead for what he's putting me through.
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Fair enough. I give him credit for the honesty. But as long as he can't control being a shithead, I would pull back. If you don't, you may wind up being the emotional punching bag.

I totally understand your thoughtfulness with respect to not wanting to label. You can't just jump in and say, "we're poly," because four different people will have four different points of view, etc.

Hang in there.
 
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AnnabelMore, Black Unicorn, and Redpepper, thank you so much for hearing the pain and heartache in what I wrote yesterday. There was a great deal of that. Dion and I have a very deep soul connection. Even as angry with him as I was, when he hurts, I hurt. Of course, I am also hurting for myself, because I care for this couple that have become such an important part of our lives.

I cried last night when I read the first couple of responses. I cried again this morning when I reread them.

In some ways, you are right. Dion has NOT shown much emotional maturity about any of this. The way he is treating me is NOT right. His emotional blowups are NOT healthy. It is absolutely clear that he is NOT in touch with his true feelings about all of this, and he is letting himself get carried away by the waves of emotion.

As a result of the above, I am suffering. I am the one getting hurt now. But you are all right-- I am also VERY concerned that Trey and Sage will also get hurt. If Dion can't get a grip on his emotions, can't learn to control his anger and impulses, it is truly only a matter of time. If I care about them as much as I say I do, maybe I do need to let them go. Yes, I am grieving over that. And yes, beyond my concern for my own marriage, that was a big part of the heartache behind what I wrote yesterday.

I am well aware of the dynamics of abusive relationships.

But I need to defend Dion here. I think it is unfair to label a man abusive because of a few moments over the course of 30 years. And really, that's all we're talking about. I can think of maybe a max of 20 times in almost 30 years when he has blown up in the way I described. Unfortunately, everything that has been happening over the past year has pushed all his buttons and about 5 of those 20 have happened in the last 12 months. But I can count on one hand when those blowups have become physical (a shove, a raised hand, etc.). So maybe 5 instances in 30 years. Yes, it is wrong. Yes, in those moments of time it is abusive. Yes, I am emotionally bruised when that happens. But no, my husband is not an abusive man.

In fact, with the exception of those moments above, I have an incredible husband and a relationship that very, very few people are ever fortunate enough to have.

He is an extraordinary, very involved, and very loving father and together we raised a beautiful, intelligent, healthy child to adulthood. We both have a very good, very strong relationship with her.

I am a business owner and a very successful one, and he is happy to be the man behind the woman. He has always given me all the support I need, both practical (doing more than his fair share around the house) and emotional. From my perspective, we are a team and I could never have accomplished all I have without him. In addition to this, he is extremely hard working and very respected and successful in his own profession.

He is a very compassionate man who has cared for three elderly members of his family in the time I have known him -- including one right now for whom he is the primary person responsible for (a stressor that probably isn't helping the situation we are going through now).

With the minor exception of the problems I described yesterday (and clarified today) he is ridiculously loving to me. He tells me he loves me every day, even after all these years. He is very touchy feely and loves to hug and kiss and cuddle with me. We have a great sex life. He tells me all the time that I am beautiful, that he is proud of me, and that he is a lucky man. He tells anyone that will listen the same thing.

Yes, he has an anger-management problem. Yes, this whole swinging/friends-with-benefits relationship with Trey and Sage has brought those problems to the forefront. Yes, we have to deal with them. Yes, I am hurting and hurting badly over this. But Dion is not an abusive husband.

But really, I want you all to know I am listening to and considering everything, all the advice. I just needed to clarify the above.
 
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awakeandready said:
Yes, he has an anger management problem. Yes, this whole swinging/friends-with-benefits relationship with Trey and Sage has brought those problems to the forefront. Yes, we have to deal with them. Yes, I am hurting and hurting badly over this. But Dion is not an abusive husband.
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Sorry to say this, but it isn't the frequency that makes a deed abusive. It's the nature of the act itself. He may be really nice most of the time, but you are already tiptoeing the moment you get the right signals from him. You know that there is a pattern; you are able to read the signals when his buttons are pushed; you are instantly afraid of him exploding again; there is already an established pattern between you two in that regard.

I can't accept this as healthy and a minor problem.

While giving credit to him acknowledging the problem, as long as he doesn't really start working on solving this, nothing changes.

I hope that you are able to start the processing soon and successfully, and that you will be able to stay strong and healthy during that process.
 
A question...

Assuming Dion recognizes that this is a serious problem (which he does, by the way), and assuming he would be willing to work on it with some counseling, where would we ever find a counselor that would be knowledgeable and understanding of the non-monogamous choices we have made (and may choose to continue making)?

We live in the Northeast. Is there some sort of listing somewhere?
 
NYCIndie just posted a few links on poly-friendly couples counseling, but I can't for the life of me find it now. I hope she pops up on this thread to share.

Regarding abusive relationships: just like Phy said, it's not the frequency, it is the emotional impact of fearing certain situations and certain triggers that marks out an abusive relationship. I was very infrequently abused physically in a close relationship, but all those times left lasting marks on my psyche. We get along great these days, but we can't live together anymore. Not all abusers are bad people, but they should get help, regardless.
 
You've mentioned several times that when Dion hurts, you hurt. Is the reverse true? When you hurt, like the current situation with Trey and Sage, does he hurt with you? Does he have empathy with and for you?

I understand that he has apologized for past poor behavior, but has he actually changed his behavior? Has he done anything to address his anger issues? Promising to change does not count. Apologizing does not count, either.

Has he gone to counseling?

I realize that you love this man, and he is a good partner to you in many ways, but this is his problem to resolve. You can't fix this for him. You can be supportive, of course, but this is his problem. You are not at fault. You did nothing wrong. You are not the problem. Your FWBs are not the problem. Swinging/polyamory are not the problem.

Dion's rage, passive aggressiveness and so far refusal to deal with his emotions in any constructive way are the problems. He is the only one who can resolve them.

And you show many of the classic signs of being in an abusive relationship. You minimize the impact of his behavior on you; you emphasize the infrequency of abusive actions and words; you have taken on all the emotional burden of anticipating, responding to and soothing to his emotions; you put a higher premium on his feelings over your own. You emphasize the good things in the relationship, while tolerating completely unacceptable behavior. You rush to his defense when others point out that his behavior is unacceptable. His behavior is abusive.

Yes, he is more than that extreme reaction. I realize that we only know what you have written and we are all more complex than posts on a forum. But what you have written is very disturbing, to say the least.
 
awakeandready said:
The majority of the time he simply acknowledges it, acknowledges that he is wrong, and tells me he feels like a shithead for what he's putting me through.
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Acknowledgement and acting on the knowledge are two entirely different things. The anger issue needs to be addressed, with or without your continuing the relationship with the other couple... NOW.

I have no certifications, but have led several group meetings centering on anger management. His act of acknowledging "he is a shithead" is a disarming tactic, and as long as you allow this behavior, it will continue. The scary part is that nearly all unresolved anger issues eventually escalate. You also have to understand that the continued use of anger is most often less a vent for emotions than it is an attempt at psychological/emotional control.

I put on my flame-retardant suit. I can take the heat.

These are my very informed opinions.

John
 
I found NYCindie's poly-friendly therapist links!

http://www.polychromatic.com/pfp//main.php?groupid[]=5

http://www.lovemore.com/polyprofessional.php

http://m.therapists.psychologytoday...edium=link&utm_campaign=topnav_find_therapist [With this one, you can select "Relationship Issues" after you narrow it down for your zip code.]

When I hear his abusive rage and physical violence have "only" happened X number of times, it's like hearing, "He's only cheated on me 20 times in the last 30 years," or "He's only stolen from me 20 times in the last 30 years," etc. That may sound extreme. I promise I'm not trying to vilify your husband. I'm sure he truly does love and cherish and respect you. It's just that, to me, this is a very serious issue that corrodes trust and a sense of safety. Once or twice would be bad enough!

That said, I don't think we'll get far arguing the semantics of what's abusive versus what's "just" unhealthy, so I'm not going to press on that point. I'm just really glad that you realize that there's a serious problem here and that it needs to be addressed. That alone can be hard enough, so good on you for facing it.

Everyone who gives advice about polyamory will say you need a strong, durable foundation to even consider it, because it will test you (as you're already seeing). It's graduate-level relationship stuff, is one way to put it. To be frank, you guys aren't there yet. If you think it would hurt to lose Trey and Sage now, imagine how much worse it would be if you'd gotten to the point where you had all decided to let love blossom, they had become a vital party of your heart... and THEN Dion freaked and unilaterally pulled the plug. It's one thing to lose a relationship because it just doesn't work out... you can get some closure there. But there's no closure to be had when a healthy relationship is vetoed.

That is not to say you should dump your FWBs to protect yourself, or "for their own good." Far from it! I don't believe in dismissing a good thing out of fear when there's a chance to work things out. But I do think things should maybe cool off a little for now. Maybe focus more on the friendship side. Be honest with them that you're having some relationship issues that you're working on; that it's not their faults at all; that you both care for them. Hopefully, if they're good friends, they'll respect you for that and be patient!
 
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